WEBVTT - Gaslight 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.360 Listeners are advised this podcast contained sensitive material relating to 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:08.160 poisons and how they can cause death. If this subject 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:12.440 triggers adverse emotions, we urge you to contact Lifeline on 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:17.560 thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at www dot lifeline 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:18.840 dot org dot AU. 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:35.280 This is the case of Marion Barter, a mother teacher 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:41.120 friend missing for twenty five years. 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.160 You know someone that she was going to vanish, that's 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:44.560 for sure. 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:49.120 The bizarre circumstances surrounding her disappearance. 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:51.320 I'm not sure if it was intentional or there's something 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:52.640 more foul afoot. 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:56.160 If you could imagine a teacher coming straight from say 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:58.440 little house on the prairie to the eighties, that was 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:04.839 Marian Barter. Whether you find Marian Barta dead or alive, 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:09.640 I honestly believe somebody has that key piece of information. 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.840 And the relentless quest of a daughter to find her mum. 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:18.520 Something had happened, something has happened to make her leave. 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.959 I am one hundred percent sure, one hundred percent sure 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:24.880 that somebody knows something. 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:32.160 The lady vanishes episode forty seven. 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.160 You don't believe me, Oh, it's not the question. I believe. 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:37.119 I'm Alison Sanders. 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:38.800 And I'm Brian Seymour. 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:41.400 Yes, but I can remember every little detail, her name, 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:42.560 miss Froy everything. 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.880 When we started this podcast, Brian chose a name The 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:50.000 Lady Vanishes, reminiscent of the nineteen thirty eight Alfred Hitchcock 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.800 movie of the same name. I met her last night 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.880 at the hotel you thought you did name. Indeed, Marian 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.520 has vanished, and although we are they are a lot 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.440 closer to knowing what happened to her, we still don't 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:08.680 know where she is. There have been so many developments, 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:11.920 none of which are more significant than the discovery of 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:15.880 the man of many names, Rick Blum and his connection 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:20.840 to Marian at the time of her disappearance. Since learning 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:24.080 of his existence and meeting him at the Inquest, we've 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.600 learned much about him, which triggered my memory of another 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:31.799 movie released in nineteen forty four, this time directed by 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:38.760 George Koker, but very much in the Hitchcock theme. Gaslight 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:43.000 follows opera singer Paula played by Ingrid Bergmann, who marries 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:47.920 her accompanist Gregory Anton in a two week whirlwind romance. 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:54.120 Unbeknownst to her, that is not his real name and 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.040 he is just using her to secure a fortune in 0:02:57.120 --> 0:02:59.600 jewels belonging to her murdered aunt. 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:00.799 Since the day I. 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:07.320 Lost your problem, Yes, you're right, that's when it began, Yes, 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:12.960 against you, still standing there and saying look look at 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.200 this letter and staring at nothing. 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:19.120 Anton, played by French actor Charles Boyer, is a master 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:23.639 manipulator trying to make Paula believe she's going mad. One 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.400 of his tactics is to dim the gas lights, and 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.920 when she notices, says it's just a figment of her imagination. 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:32.680 It hurts me when you're ill and fancy. 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:37.480 It's where the term gas lighting comes from Cameron. But 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:42.520 eventually police Inspector Brian Cameron played by Joseph Cotton sees 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:44.640 through he's act and you from. 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:46.600 The first moment I saw you that you were dangerous 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:48.600 to me, From the first moment I saw you that 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:49.760 you were dangerous to her. 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:54.320 Dangerous. That's the word. Monique Cornelius used a lot when 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.880 describing blum Or Frederick to Hedevari as she knew him. 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.360 Her interview in our last EPISO shows he was the 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:07.560 ultimate gaslighter. He knew how to get exactly what he wanted, 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:12.160 large sums of money and valuables from unsuspecting victims. He 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:17.040 targeted lonely women at their most vulnerable moments, bombarded them 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:21.240 with romance and promises of a new life, manipulated them 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.960 to make them second guess their own decisions, convinced them 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:29.000 to cut themselves off from family members, and made sure 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:35.240 they put their trust entirely in him. It's horrible to 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.240 think about, and what became clear by his responses at 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.640 the inquest was that he felt no compassion or empathy 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:46.320 for any of the women he duped, except perhaps for Monique, 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.920 who managed to see him for what he really was 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:53.240 before any real harm was done. But the question remains, 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:58.719 is this man more than a menacing serial fraudster. Could 0:04:58.839 --> 0:04:59.680 he be a killer? 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:11.960 Monique isn't the only one who thinks so. Julane recalled 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:15.159 his obsession with poisons and feared he would try to 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:20.680 smother her with a pillow. Estranged daughter Evelyn was made 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:23.920 to feel she was going crazy for believing he might 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:28.960 poison her with a bottle of champagne, and Jeanette Gaffney 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:32.160 Bowen was so concerned about the threat he posed to 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:35.719 her safety that she resorted to taking out an apprehended 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:43.320 violence order against him. Then, of course, there's Rick Bloom's 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:48.400 preoccupation with asking women to dye their hair blonde. Remember 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:52.000 his cousin's widow, whom he abandoned in Balley, had her 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.920 hair colored blonde after Rick Bloom arranged it, and he 0:05:55.960 --> 0:06:00.000 asked Janet Oldenburg to bleach her hair before traveling to Europe, 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:04.960 although she never did. It's difficult to believe this Rick 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:09.120 Bloom happens to prefer blondes, after all, his wife Diane 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:15.360 is a brunette. So we decided to investigate whether there 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:21.440 could be something more insidious behind his motivations. It was 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:25.080 not easy finding a poisons expert in Australia willing to 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.600 come on the podcast to discuss this issue. 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:31.800 Hello, Hello, how are you, Brian? 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.800 I'm well how are you? But I tracked down a 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:39.720 highly qualified toxicologist and expert in poisons based in Pennsylvania 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.760 in the United States, Doctor Anne Chappelle. 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:47.040 I'm a board certified toxicologist. I have a PhD in 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:53.320 Pharmacology and toxicology from Saint Joseph's University and Philadelphia. I've 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:58.320 been a practicing toxicologist for over twenty five years. 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.000 Can you tell me what are some of the common 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.440 poisons that have been used to kill people. 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:08.960 Well, there's intended poisons and unintended poisons. Of course, the 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:15.000 most frequently unintended kind of poison are prescription drugs actually, 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:19.760 where somebody has overdosed on those prescription drugs or it 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.160 is a drug that's not intended for them. So that 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:27.800 is actually something that is of concern and wide abuse. 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.360 And you see that quite a bit in terms of 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:32.600 other kinds of poisons. I know, we don't think of 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:35.520 these traditionally as poisons, but there's a lot of deaths 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:39.720 associated with alcohol as well as things like the other 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.120 opiates and such. Another again, we don't think of those 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:46.080 traditional poisons, but really that's what they are. When you're 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.640 thinking about you know, consumers or just in the general public. 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:54.080 Some of those most common poisons is actually carbon monoxide. 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:58.720 Carbon monoxide is an odorless, tasteless gas, and when you 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:04.160 breathe it in likes the red blood cells better than 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.360 your oxygen does, so it displaces the oxygen and so 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:11.080 you're carrying around carbon monoxide instead of oxygen, and it 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.680 basically starves your body. So that is a you know, 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.840 that's very common in terms of a poison. 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.560 And what about intended poisonings. I mean, we've already I 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.560 get the Christie Arsenick and hold lies, and we've all 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.920 seen the movies. But what are some of the poisons 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:30.160 that employed by people intending to kill? 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.120 Well, there was a very famous case just a few 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:37.880 years ago of Viktor Yuschenkov in Russia. He was poisoned 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:43.360 with dioxin. And dioxin you can see very clearly how 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.760 he has a normal looking face, and for a week 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.880 or so after he was poisoned, he got very, very sick. 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.880 You could see hyper pigmentation in his face. You could 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.800 see he had problems with this thyroid. He nearly died. 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:02.520 So there's a lot of those kinds of poisons that 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.960 you know at a very we as a toxicologist, we 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.880 always say the dose makes the poison. But I want 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:10.440 to modify that just a little bit. It's not just 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.079 the dose that makes the poison. It's also the route 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.400 of exposure. So you know, for some things, they can 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.920 go through the skin very easily. So if you put 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.760 something on a door, it gets through the skin and 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:26.200 reacts very quickly. So if you're thinking about poisons too, 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.720 there's two ways I think to think about poisons. One 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:33.800 is that classic movie where you know, the spy gets caught. 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.640 He falls down and he breaks open a tooth and 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.600 they're cyanide and he cracks it and he's dead in 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:44.280 thirty seconds. Then we also have the more chronic type 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.400 poisonings that you might see in some of the Agatha 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.160 Christie books. You know arsenic, you know, low doses of 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:56.640 arsenic over extended period of time. There's other heavy metals 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:00.600 and such that over time they build up in your 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.560 system and it's hard to detect them because your symptoms 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:08.880 are pretty generic. Actually, I don't feel good. I have 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.720 some diarrhea, you know, I'm really tired and lethargic. And 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.040 then over time those get worse and worse, and then 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:19.200 you can go into organ failure. All depends on the 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:23.440 form of the material. For example, arsenic, even though it's arsenics, 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:27.440 there's some more potent arsenics than other arsenics depending on 0:10:27.480 --> 0:10:27.880 the form. 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:32.160 Okay, and you're talking when you say over time, days, weeks, months. 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.800 It can be Radon is considered a poison. It's a 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.400 gas you breathe it. It's a lot of times, at 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:41.760 least here in the us. You have it in different 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:44.280 rock formations, and so if you have a house with 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.680 a foundation, sometimes you can get from that foundation seepage 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.559 of that radon gas into the basement, and over a 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.560 period of twenty thirty years of exposure to those low 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:59.679 levels of radon gas, you can develop lung cancer. So 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.120 you know, sometimes it's thirty days, sometimes it's thirty seconds, 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:09.440 and you know it's really about what is that intended target. 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:13.559 Some of the most I guess efficient I'm using air 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:19.320 quotes here for efficient are poisons that stop your ability 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:24.000 to have a functioning heart or a functioning brain. So 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:28.200 those short term ones, those are things that again displace 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:31.679 the oxygen or maybe there isn't any oxygen if you're 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:35.480 just breathing nitrogen, let's say, or certain chemicals that when 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:39.200 they get into your body, they stop your cells from 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.720 being able to make energy. And because they can't make energy, 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:45.880 they die. And where are the cells in your body 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:51.559 that need the most energy your heart, your brain. So 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:54.520 so you may see these kinds of you know, chest pains, 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:57.480 or they collapse, they can't breathe, they you know, the heart, 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:00.280 you know, it looks like a heart attack or where 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.640 you know, they their brain just you know, stops well, 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:06.800 you have brain damage and then you can't come back 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:07.080 from that. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.840 I'm hitting pause here for a second. Doctor Chappelle is 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:14.720 talking about poisons that can impact your major organs like 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.440 your brain and heart. Not to draw any conclusions, but 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:22.440 just to remind you, Rick Bloom's third wife, Ilona Kinsel, 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.680 a hairdresser who probably used chemicals to treat customers hair, 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:30.520 was just thirty one years old when she died behind 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:32.920 the steering wheel of her car in Melbourne in nineteen 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:37.320 seventy seven, apparently because of something to do with her heart. 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.120 I'll leave that as food for thought, and now back 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:44.080 to my interview with doctor Chappelle. Can I just run 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.640 through a couple of poisons that I've gone through and 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.400 made up a list. It's not a definitive list of anything, 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:52.440 but just ask you about some of these poisons. And 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:57.440 you mentioned cyanide. Sinid does strike me as a poison that, 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.560 when administered in the correct dose, can kill very quickly. 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:02.400 How does it do that? 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.360 Cyanide is one of those chemicals that inhibits your cell's 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:09.920 ability to make energy to sustain itself. So when it 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.720 can't sustain itself, the cell dies. And again that's like 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.760 in your heart, your brain, those kinds of regions of 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.480 your body. That's you know, detrimental. You can't support life 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.200 if you're not having a beating heart or a functioning brain. 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:26.600 Yeah, and very quickly does that. 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.440 It does at high enough dose. Yes, there's a little 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:34.200 bit of cyanide in a lot of things like pit fruit, 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:38.920 you know, apricots, apples, there's a little bit of cyanide 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.840 in there. But again it's the dose that makes the poison. 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:46.360 Right, okay, And something like asenic, I mean in movies 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.920 and novels, it's it's tried as a poison that can 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:53.760 kill quickly. Also, what sort of dosed and what sort 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.680 of method of delivery would be required to kill within 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:57.120 a day. 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.320 So arsenic is a little bit different. When it gets 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:04.480 into your body, it interferes with certain enzymes that are 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.760 critical for correct functioning of yourselves. So it binds to 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.640 these different enzymes. There's over two hundred of these different enzymes, 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:15.439 and then that is where when they start shutting down, 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.960 that's where you see the adverse effects. So the other 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:23.040 thing is that arsenic can be stored in the body. 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.600 It's not very waters voluble, so it likes to hang 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:28.560 out in the fat part of your body, and so 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.680 you can have this like reservoir of it too, so 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:34.120 you can get a low dose of it, but over 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:38.200 time it can build up in your body and then 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.560 you can see some more severe adverse effects with it. 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:48.400 But again, the adverse effects with acute, very high doses 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:54.800 of arsenic tend to be nausea, vomiting, adominal pain, severe diarrhea. 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:58.000 But the chronic is where you see this kind of 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.720 multi organ disease, and it's really it can be very 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:03.080 difficult to pinpoint. 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:05.680 What about something like strychnine. 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.640 Well, strych nine has an interesting history because it was 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:13.240 used as a rodent side pesticide and it was used 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:18.400 for killing like small little birds and rodents. It used 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.480 to be used medically actually because they found that it 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.560 could strengthen certain contractions, so they thought it would be 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.400 good for someone who needed some extra help with their 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:31.680 heart muscle. But then they realized that that really isn't 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.160 the right way to use strychnine. So what happens with 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:39.800 strychnine is that it is a neurotoxin, which means it 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:43.880 affects the nerves that give the signals for the muscles 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:46.800 and other parts of your body to do something. So 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:52.120 basically it doesn't allow an off switch, so your muscles 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.840 keep keep doing what you know, twitching or whatever. So 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.640 if an acute overdose of strychnine, the part of the 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.160 body that gets affected that's of concern would be the 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:05.960 heart because it can't contract like it's supposed to, and 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.960 or the diaphragm. You know, your diaphragm is what moves 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.800 up and down to help you breathe, so basically you suffocate. 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:12.880 Wow. 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:15.800 The other thing about strychnine is that it can be 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:21.120 absorbed through the skin, through your eyes, and so that's 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:26.040 another way it makes it very dangerous. And digitalis so 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:31.040 digitalis so many of these poisons, what we're calling poisons, 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.520 there are actually extracts from various plants. The stryccht nine 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:41.640 is actually extracted from the seed of the strictness nux 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:47.240 vomica tree. Digitalis is associated with the purple foxglove, and 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.440 so a long time ago there were some medicinal benefits 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:52.960 of foxglove because they found if they put it on 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:55.800 the skin where there was an open sore, it helped 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:59.480 to heal that Native Americans found that if you gave 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:03.160 it to some one who was suffering from some leg swelling, 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:05.840 it would make the leg swelling grow down. Because the 0:17:05.880 --> 0:17:10.200 digitalis improves how the heart contracts. So if the heart 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:14.359 contracts better, it's working better. Your volume is up, your 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.960 pressure is up, and you're able to excrete the fluids 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:21.520 out of your kidney much better. So when you think 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:26.120 of what the overdose or poisoning would be, it affects 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:30.040 other muscles that actually contract. So you see a lot 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:34.040 of in the GI track, You see nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:38.240 in your eyes, you can have vision changes because the 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:43.160 pupils are controlled by different muscles. And also too much 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:46.280 you can get in a regular heartbeat too fast, too slow. 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.880 So so much of these poisons is really getting down 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:56.320 to the basic pharmacology and where do these substances interact, 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:01.760 and that's why they've been exploited medicinally. But then again, 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.160 the dose makes the poison too much and you can 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:09.280 get that exaggerated pharmacologic effect and that can turn deadly. 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.400 How difficult is it to get your hands on a 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:15.520 poison that can be used to keel and particularly from 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:17.720 things that are typically found in the home. 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:22.400 Well. Again, some of the most common poisons are your 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.240 pharmaceuticals that you keep in your bathroom when you haven't 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.680 used all of your vicodin after you had your teeth 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.479 out or something, so those tend to be the most common. 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.320 In terms of other poisons, sometimes it's things that we 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.000 don't often think of, like bleach, but that tends to 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.960 be more of a direct acting poison. It destroys the 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:46.000 mucous tissues, so if you drink it, it's more of 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:49.040 a caustic agent, and we don't really think of that 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:51.080 at least I don't tend to think of that as 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:55.560 a traditional poison. But in terms of other things that 0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.960 can be dangerous, you also have to think of who 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.919 is the person being affected. If it is a small child, 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.640 they don't have as much body weight, they don't have 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.600 necessarily a full capacity of their liver to be able 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.520 to metabolize and change how these are in the body, 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.399 or even the elderly. You have someone who is old, 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:22.040 their liver function tends to be lower, their kidneys might 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:26.359 not work as well, so a agent that works for 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:31.000 a young person might be very different in an old person. 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:32.800 So I did in drop. But you mentioned to liver. 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:35.760 What role does liver a function play in how a 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:37.480 poison that affects the body. 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:43.359 So when you ingest anything through your stomach, the first 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.800 place all that blood goes to after it visits your 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.600 stomach and your intestines, is it goes through the liver. 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.840 And the role of the liver is to either break 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:56.719 down some of those nutrients and other components into their 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.679 smaller pieces. But it is also a really good way 0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:06.200 to make substances that and metabolize them or change them 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:09.639 into something else. So the only way you can get 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.639 these substances, any substance really out of your body is 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.440 to make it water soluble, So it means to make 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:20.280 it so that you can pee, poop, or breathe it out. 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:25.119 So things that are difficult that sequester in your fat, 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.439 that are hard to get out, those can accumulate in 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.280 your body. And I also also think of it this way. 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.959 You have a normal dose of vicodin that you've been 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:36.879 taking for your back, and you've been taking it for 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:40.960 a couple of weeks, your liver automatically will start to 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:45.320 ramp up its production of the enzymes that break that 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:49.040 opiate down. So then if you stop taking that opiate, 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:53.560 your liver it goes back down to its normal levels 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:57.440 of those enzymes. Well, let's suppose four months later you're like, oh, 0:20:57.800 --> 0:20:59.679 you know what, I really need some vic it In 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:01.400 the last time I took it, I had to take 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:05.160 three to feel better. You take three, but your body 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.160 is used to you not taking any and so you've 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:12.679 overdosed because your enzymes that you have are not in 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.320 high enough concentrations to be able to get rid of 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.400 that effectively. Also, think of it like tolerance for alcohol. 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:21.920 You know, you haven't you've had a drink, you drink 0:21:22.000 --> 0:21:24.280 two drinks a night. For a while, you don't drink anything, 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:28.000 and then you're an easy date. So that's the way 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:31.160 it works. You know, it's a natural it's a way 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:35.639 for your body to accommodate. So usually the liver is 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:40.320 really good about making things less toxic. Sometimes it can 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.520 take something in and make it more toxic, or it 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:48.600 is so busy working on that toxicint that you've overwhelmed 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:51.959 it and those other you know, it's like when you 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.800 get really really drunk, your body can only handle so 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:59.239 much alcohol before you start having some adverse effects of 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:03.040 that alcohol because it just doesn't have the capacity. So again, 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:08.080 the very young, the very old people that are have 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:12.919 liver disease or chronic alcoholics or such, they tend to 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:17.560 have a more compromised liver function, and so they have 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:20.800 to be more careful in some of the intended and 0:22:20.880 --> 0:22:22.680 unintended exposures they may have. 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:26.399 The reason I asked doctor Chappelle specifically about how the 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:30.080 liver is affected is because Marian undertook a liver function 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:34.000 test the month before she traveled to England and Gulaine 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.439 Dubois den Loys claimed that Rick Bloom asked her to 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:40.840 take a liver test a scan before their planned trip. 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:44.239 Let me ask you this, If I was intending to 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:49.280 poison a otherwise healthy adult, what benefit would it be 0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:52.800 to me to have them submit to a liver function 0:22:52.920 --> 0:22:55.240 test to find out what their liver function was? Would 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:57.199 that be information that would help me in deciding a 0:22:57.280 --> 0:22:58.560 dose or method of delivery. 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:02.160 Well, think of it this way. Those kind of substances 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:08.639 that are metabolized into inactive substances that might help with 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:11.920 liver function. But for something like cyanide, where it gets 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:16.080 in your body and it interacts with those cells very quickly, 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:19.440 it's going to damage you before it actually even gets 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.840 to really to the liver. So there's you have to 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:26.200 think about what, you know, what's your ultimate goal here? 0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:28.640 You know, are you really trying to poison them quickly? 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:31.600 You've got to get with something that maybe your liver 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:37.040 wouldn't break down, or just some that acts so fast. 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:39.359 And now that you mentioned that, I mean, it does 0:23:40.040 --> 0:23:42.479 I guess, you know, when I think about you know, 0:23:43.280 --> 0:23:46.040 it is unthinkable, but you know, I'm trying to imagine 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:48.399 if I ever wanted to poison someone, you know what, 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:53.120 I think I probably would lean towards pharmaceuticals, very very 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:57.760 powerful opiates that are otherwise available for things like chronic pain, 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:01.920 post operative k things that you actually can get your 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:04.680 hands on. If they say you've you know, you've got 0:24:04.680 --> 0:24:07.320 a loft long injury, you have chronic bind, your your 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:10.920 disability pension, you would presumably have access to all sorts 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:16.240 of pharmaceuticals that potentially could be misused intentionally to harm someone. 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:19.639 Well, like insulin. There's another example. Let's suppose I was 0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:23.320 a diabetic. You know, you really throw off someone's insulin 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:25.960 or their ability to process that sugar, you can throw 0:24:26.000 --> 0:24:28.720 them into a sugar coma. So you know, I've seen 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:35.560 that in several kinds of thriller books and such. You know, again, though, 0:24:35.720 --> 0:24:39.080 if you do have a death, if there's an autopsy 0:24:39.200 --> 0:24:42.520 that is performed afterwards, and part of that autopsy they 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:45.919 look at your medical history, what drugs were you taking, 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:50.040 and they can tell a lot from just even a 0:24:50.080 --> 0:24:52.919 look around your different organs. Were you do you have 0:24:52.960 --> 0:24:55.880 a fatty liver? You know, did you? So that could 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:59.320 indicate that maybe had some liver liver disease. You know, 0:24:59.440 --> 0:25:03.480