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Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 2: Life is full of tricky questions, and every Tuesday on

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Speaker 2: the Happy Families Pod we answer your tricky questions so

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Speaker 2: that you can make your family happier. Today we're talking

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Speaker 2: about quote unquote irrational fears eight year olds who won't

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Speaker 2: do simple things because they're terrified of life. If you've

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Speaker 2: got a child who has fears of the monster under

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Speaker 2: the bed, the ghost in the cupboard, or doing anything

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Speaker 2: without you being by their side, this is the episode

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Speaker 2: for you.

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Speaker 1: Stay with us.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Real parenting

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Speaker 2: solutions every single day. This is Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast.

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Speaker 2: We are Justin and Kylie Coulson and if you have

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Speaker 2: a tricky question for us, every Tuesday on the pod,

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Speaker 2: we answer them. All you have to do is go

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Speaker 2: to Happy Families dot com dot a, you scroll out

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Speaker 2: of the podcast section, press record, start talking. It's a

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Speaker 2: super simple system and we love to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: Today.

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Speaker 2: A question one from Emily who asks the following, Hi.

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Speaker 3: My eight year old has big, sometimes irrational fears. He's

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Speaker 3: afraid to be alone, even if it means just going

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Speaker 3: to the other side of the house, which is within

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Speaker 3: earshot by himself. I want to help him become more

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Speaker 3: resilient and independent, but I'm struggling to know how to

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Speaker 3: do this. When he won't even go to his room

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Speaker 3: to get a book or a toy that he wants

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Speaker 3: unless I go with him, How can I help him?

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Speaker 4: I wish Emily was on the podcast because I would

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Speaker 4: love to ask her a million questions about her little boy,

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Speaker 4: and you know, when it started and how it started,

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Speaker 4: and whether or not it's an irrational fear or if

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Speaker 4: it's more about just wanting to be.

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Speaker 2: Close to mum.

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Speaker 4: Like there's so many different nuances to the question.

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Speaker 2: Well, as I listened to the question, I wrote down

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Speaker 2: about seven hundred things I haven't written so fast, So

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Speaker 2: I've got a lot to say on this one.

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Speaker 4: That surprise.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how about if I just get going and you

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Speaker 2: can just jump in and talk all of me as

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Speaker 2: we go. The first thing that I want to pick

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Speaker 2: up on is the word irrational. So make no mistake,

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Speaker 2: the fear is real for this eight year old. It

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Speaker 2: may seem irrational to you as a grown up, because

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Speaker 2: as a grown up, you don't get frightened walking to

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Speaker 2: the other side of the house, but for this little

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Speaker 2: guy he does. So therefore the fear is rational, it's real,

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Speaker 2: and there's this understandable striving that we have as parents

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Speaker 2: that our children will become independent and resilient. But the

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Speaker 2: great irony is the harder we push it, the faster

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Speaker 2: we try to force it. Like if I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: force you to become independent, I actually terrorize you and

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Speaker 2: make you more anxious, which increases you dependence. Force creates resistance.

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Speaker 2: The more I tried to make you independent by leaving

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Speaker 2: you to do things independently, the more frightened you become

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Speaker 2: of being left on your own, and therefore the more

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Speaker 2: reliant and dependent you become on me.

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Speaker 4: I remember having a conversation with someone one day and

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Speaker 4: they said, we've determined that the kids aren't allowed to

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Speaker 4: date until they're fully toilet trained.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and so we haven't shared notes because I was

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Speaker 2: scribbing my notes down. But that's where I'm finishing today's podcast. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: that's fine, you take my line anyway, you didn't see

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Speaker 2: finish the thought.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a really important one.

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Speaker 4: And at the time I was grappling with a two

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Speaker 4: year old who just couldn't get her head wrapped around

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Speaker 4: what it meant to do a week in the Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and it was driving me crazy. But I'd also been

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Speaker 4: through it multiple times before and know that at some

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Speaker 4: point everything clicks into place.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like you're not allowed to date until your toilet trained.

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Speaker 2: Like eventually they're going to be motivated to go on

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Speaker 2: a date and say, all right, I'm going to have

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Speaker 2: to start using the potty right Eventually, Eventually it's going

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Speaker 2: to work out eventually, Emily. We don't meant to mock

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Speaker 2: your sons and your very real struggle here. But the

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Speaker 2: first thing that I wrote down when I listened to this,

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Speaker 2: other than irrational and question marks and circled the word,

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Speaker 2: was that resilience is relational. What I mean by that

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Speaker 2: is we develop a sense of resilience not by being independent,

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Speaker 2: but by knowing that we have people who've got our back,

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Speaker 2: people who are nearby that we can lean on, people

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Speaker 2: that we can rely on.

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Speaker 4: And the way, No, we don't have to do it

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Speaker 4: all on our own, Like that, the idea that I

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Speaker 4: have to do it all on my own when it

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Speaker 4: feels so big, overwhelming and all encompassing, actually stops me

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Speaker 4: in my tracks. It freezes me. I'm not able to

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Speaker 4: move forward.

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Speaker 2: So here's a grown up example that may help shift

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Speaker 2: perspective just a little bit. I'd finish my PhD. I

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Speaker 2: was working at the University of Wollongong in the ila

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Speaker 2: Or Institute for Mental Health. I was working academically, writing

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Speaker 2: research papers, lecturing in the School of Psychology. I'm a

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Speaker 2: full grown adult with a mortgage and at the time

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Speaker 2: we had five of our six kids.

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Speaker 1: And I decided that I wanted to start a business.

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Speaker 4: So let's just acknowledge you had no idea how to

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Speaker 4: start a business. You had no idea what that would

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Speaker 4: look like. You had no idea how you were actually

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Speaker 4: going to make it all work.

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Speaker 2: No, but I knew people who had done that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing before, and I figured that it could be done.

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Speaker 2: And I had a PhD. So if I could get

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Speaker 2: a PhD, I can figure out how to own business.

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Speaker 2: There's plenty of people without PhD.

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Speaker 4: I'm just painting the picture. You weren't an expert in

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Speaker 4: not being a business owner.

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Speaker 2: No, but I guess what I'm highlighting here is we've

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Speaker 2: got an eight year old who he knows what's on

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Speaker 2: the other side of the house. He knows how to

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Speaker 2: get there, but it still feels frightening. So I'm a

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Speaker 2: grown up and I'm about to take on a huge

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Speaker 2: amount of financial risk by saying I'm quitting my stable,

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Speaker 2: secure job in academia and I'm going to start trying

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Speaker 2: to generate my own income off my own bat doing

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Speaker 2: my own thing. And I remember ringing my dad and

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Speaker 2: just explaining the situation, and I said, Dad, I don't

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Speaker 2: know if this is going to work. I don't know

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Speaker 2: how to do this. I'm pretty nervous. I didn't use

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Speaker 2: the word anxiety, but it fits with the theme of

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about today. And this is coming back

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Speaker 2: to the idea that resilience is relational. I said to Dad,

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Speaker 2: if this fails, is it reasonable for me to ask you,

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Speaker 2: could my family come and live with you? Guys, like,

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Speaker 2: can we move to the central coast. Dad's got a

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Speaker 2: really big garage with a sort of a It's not

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Speaker 2: self contained, but there's a bedroom ish I don't know,

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Speaker 2: a storage area underneath the garage that could use as

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Speaker 2: a place to live. And I just said, could we

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Speaker 2: come and squeeze into the house into the garage? Could

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Speaker 2: we somehow try to make this work, and it's huming

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Speaker 2: the business doesn't work. And Dad just said, no, you're

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Speaker 2: not going to live in my garage. You can live

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Speaker 2: in my house. And of course I'm here for you.

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Speaker 2: Go start the business.

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Speaker 1: That's what you want to do. I believe in you.

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Speaker 2: I think you can do it, and even if you can't,

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Speaker 2: I'm here for you. And I was able to take

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Speaker 2: that step, obviously, with your support and with my dad's

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Speaker 2: promise that financially he would support us if need be.

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Speaker 2: He never needed to do that. But I was able

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Speaker 2: to do the quote unquote independent thing, the quote unquote

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Speaker 2: resilient thing. But I was not doing it on my own.

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Speaker 2: I was doing it knowing that I had a backstop,

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Speaker 2: I had a safety in net, I had somebody who

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Speaker 2: was in my corner. Well, I had multiple people who

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Speaker 2: were in my corner who wanted to see me succeed.

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Speaker 2: And when I think about this little eight year old

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Speaker 2: guy who we want to help them become resilient and independent,

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Speaker 2: the best way for him to become resilient and independent

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Speaker 2: is to know that somebody's got his back, that if

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Speaker 2: he falls, someone's going to catch him, that there's that

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Speaker 2: safety net there, and if going to the other side

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Speaker 2: of the house, going to his bedroom feels a little intimidating,

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Speaker 2: a little bit difficult. How much time and how much

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Speaker 2: disruption does it really make in your day to walk

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Speaker 2: with him. My guess is it's twenty or thirty seconds

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Speaker 2: out of your day, and it's an opportunity to hug

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Speaker 2: him and high five him and maybe bit by bit

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Speaker 2: to help him to stretch and say, well, I'll walk

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Speaker 2: to the end of the corridor here and I'll watch

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Speaker 2: you as you go into the room. I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to go all the way because you're eight years old

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Speaker 2: now and I believe in you. Or maybe you just

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Speaker 2: go all the way because that's what makes him feel

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Speaker 2: comfortable right now. I guarantee that when he's ready to

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Speaker 2: start dating, he's going to say I can do this

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Speaker 2: on my own. You can say, son, you're not allowed

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Speaker 2: to date until you can leave the house on your

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Speaker 2: own and take that romantic interest to the place that

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Speaker 2: you'd like to without me. And he's going to develop.

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Speaker 2: So this is about trust. This is about trusting in

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Speaker 2: his intrinsic developmental trajectory. He's going to get there. So

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Speaker 2: they are my initial thoughts after the break for developmentally

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Speaker 2: useful ideas that are going to help you to navigate

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Speaker 2: this situation, because the reality is it is sometimes inconvenient

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Speaker 2: when your children have things that they're afraid of, things

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Speaker 2: that are increasing their anxiety that you find inconvenient.

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Speaker 1: Stay with us, We're back. This is The Happy Family's podcast.

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Speaker 2: If you're enjoying the podcast, please like, share, and rate

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Speaker 2: and review the podcast. It helps other people to find

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Speaker 2: the pod and make their families happier. Okay, Kylie, I've

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Speaker 2: got a couple of things that I reckon we can

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Speaker 2: do to help with these fears that Emily's son is expressing.

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Speaker 4: What about you as you've been sharing and especially your

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Speaker 4: experience a bit about your dad and just how instrumental

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Speaker 4: that big leap of faith was and you know that

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Speaker 4: poignant moment in our lives, and how your dad's faith

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Speaker 4: in you gave you the courage to actually take that

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Speaker 4: big leap, massive leap. And I'm thinking about the experiences

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Speaker 4: that we've had with the kids, and I'm a bit

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Speaker 4: like that eight year old boy. I've got some really big,

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Speaker 4: irrational fears myself, and the kids have watched me over

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Speaker 4: the years as I have grappled with them, and I've

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Speaker 4: talked about them on the podcast from time to time.

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Speaker 4: I really really hate going to the theme parks and

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Speaker 4: going on those big scary rides, and I hate jumping

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Speaker 4: off rocks into bodies of water, and it doesn't have

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Speaker 4: to be a very high rock either, like it really

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Speaker 4: stresses me out. But the one thing that I have

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Speaker 4: always strived to do with my kids is to acknowledge

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Speaker 4: my fears and then show them them that I'm willing

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Speaker 4: to face them. And so there are some really big

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Speaker 4: moments in time where the kids will have recognized me

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Speaker 4: in a very very fearful jumping out of a plane.

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Speaker 4: That was a big moment, but I did and in

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Speaker 4: most cases I was grateful that I did it, But

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Speaker 4: there were a few times where I wasn't grateful that

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Speaker 4: I did it, and I was able to talk to

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Speaker 4: them through that process as well. I think our example

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Speaker 4: and our willingness to actually be human with them and

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Speaker 4: let them know that we have our own fears different

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Speaker 4: to theirs, but we are working towards facing them as

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Speaker 4: well is a really powerful teaching tool for our kids,

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Speaker 4: so they know they're not they're not They're not on

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Speaker 4: their own.

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Speaker 1: I like it a lot.

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Speaker 2: Let me go through a couple of other things that

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Speaker 2: I think are going to be useful scientifically. Secure attachment,

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Speaker 2: which seems to be something that this kid is really craving.

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Speaker 2: When a child feels really securely attached, that's when they

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Speaker 2: start to explore, and exploration literally becomes the natural white

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Speaker 2: product of that secure attachment. If he's feeling insecure, then

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Speaker 2: he runs back to that secure base. This is what

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Speaker 2: we call attachment theory. And my sense is that we

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Speaker 2: just we need to help him to feel secure. That's

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Speaker 2: first and foremost. He's only eight, he's still got his

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Speaker 2: l plates on. He is a little kid. He's a

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Speaker 2: learner at this point. So my four ideas and number one,

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Speaker 2: go with him. If you want him to go somewhere

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Speaker 2: and he's showing some concern, just go with him. Be compassionate,

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Speaker 2: go with him. It's not going to be a big

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Speaker 2: impact in your life, and he will appreciate it, and

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Speaker 2: eventually he'll be like, you don't need to come with

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Speaker 2: me anymore, Mum. It might take a while, but he'll

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Speaker 2: get their second thing. I wouldn't be praising, I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be making a big deal when he does something on

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Speaker 2: his own. If you make too big of a deal

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Speaker 2: of it, what starts to happen is that number one,

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Speaker 2: it implies that he's wrong for wanting support from you.

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Speaker 2: Number two, it encourages him to try to please you

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Speaker 2: and ignore his own discomfort. And I don't know that

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Speaker 2: that's going to be the healthiest way forward. Number Three,

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Speaker 2: trust the developmental timeline. He is going to figure it out. Eventually,

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Speaker 2: he'll get there. And number four, I'm just throwing this

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Speaker 2: out there as a possibility. Maybe there are some underlying causes.

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Speaker 1: I doubt it.

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Speaker 2: I think that this is it's probably not aligned with

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Speaker 2: the norm, but I wouldn't say that it's atypical. I'd

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Speaker 2: say that this still falls into the range of developmentally

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Speaker 2: typical behavior, certainly on the less common side, but it

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Speaker 2: still fits within parameters of something that's not that unusual.

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Speaker 2: Bottom line for me is safety through presents. That's what

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Speaker 2: we're looking for here. He's probably saying, I need more connection,

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Speaker 2: not less connection. And as we've already said, and as

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Speaker 2: you still my favorite my end line for this one,

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Speaker 2: he needs to be able to do it before he

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Speaker 2: can date. And I don't think you're going to have

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Speaker 2: any problems there and when you put in that perspective,

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Speaker 2: it takes the pressure off you because he's got at

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Speaker 2: least another six or seven years. And I just don't

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Speaker 2: know too many fourteen and fifteen year olds who are saying, Mum.

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Speaker 1: Walk me, walk me to my bedroom. Please. Hey, Emily,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for the question. We really hope that

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Speaker 1: this helps.

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Speaker 2: If you have a tricky question that you'd love to

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Speaker 2: ask us, you can send your email your voice note

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Speaker 2: to podcasts at happy families dot com dot you. That's

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Speaker 2: podcasts with an s at happy families dot com. You

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Speaker 2: on the pod. Oh, you can go to happy families

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Speaker 2: dot com do you and just use the really super

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Speaker 2: simple system there. Press the button, start talking and we

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Speaker 2: will get your voice message. The Happy Family's podcast is

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Speaker 2: produced by Justin Rouland from Bridge Media. Mim Hammets provides research,

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Speaker 2: admin and other support. And tomorrow on the podcast, I

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Speaker 2: Can't wait for this one, a conversation with a guy

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Speaker 2: who's just written this really really smart book about helping

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Speaker 2: kids to go further, do more, and be more than

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Speaker 2: they've thought that they could be.

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Speaker 1: Lond Mosconassi, the author.

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Speaker 2: Of Free Range Kids and the founder of the Let

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Speaker 2: Grow movement, put me in touch with Chris and we're

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Speaker 2: going to chat tomorrow about his new book and how

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Speaker 2: we can help kids to be resilient and do some

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Speaker 2: of the things that Emily's indicated today that she'd like

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Speaker 2: her eight year old to step into. That's tomorrow on

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Speaker 2: The Happy Family's podcast, Talk to You then,