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Speaker 1: It's a Happy Families podcast with doctor Justin Kilson, where

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Speaker 1: Luke and Susie parents of three little boys, and this

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Speaker 1: is the podcast for those of us who are time

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Speaker 1: poor parents, but just one answers now.

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Speaker 2: Our next guest is a doctor of psychology who writes

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Speaker 2: for The New York Times and is featured in Sydney's

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Speaker 2: Daily Telegraph, The Project, The Today Show and of course

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Speaker 2: The Luke and Susie Radio Show. A closet middle aged

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Speaker 2: man in lycra and our family and parenting expert from

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Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com dot Are you please welcome? Father

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Speaker 2: of six daughters, Dr Justin Kilson.

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Speaker 3: And one son in law.

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Speaker 4: That's right, Yes, I'll send one of my children out

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Speaker 4: of the home already. And I'm feeling like, well, there's

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Speaker 4: more space in any number of ways, yeah, even psychologically.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, that's huge. Okay, we'll get to Craig's question shortly.

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Speaker 3: But you are us a dad joke?

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Speaker 4: Well I do. I hope that you won't mind this one. Okay,

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Speaker 4: it made me laugh a lot when I heard it.

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Speaker 4: I used to date a girl who loved to be

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Speaker 4: covered in cheese cracker. All right, I love your face.

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Speaker 4: You didn't say anything about that one.

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Speaker 2: No, I love I love dad jokes, and then they

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Speaker 2: get told Craig said a question to the show, You say, Craig,

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure it's my sister. And they asked this

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Speaker 2: question just before they dished off the then seventeen year

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Speaker 2: old son to us.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, when is the right time to tell your kids

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Speaker 3: you're old enough to fend for yourself, you need to

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Speaker 3: leave the house, especially if they're not motivated to get

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Speaker 3: a job.

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Speaker 4: What do you think, Well, I think we should go

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Speaker 4: back a little bit now. Obviously for Craig it might

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Speaker 4: be too late, but for those who don't have children

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Speaker 4: who are quite there, let's start there and then we'll

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Speaker 4: move to Craig if that's okay. So I think that

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Speaker 4: you start young. You want to have all of the

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Speaker 4: hard conversations with your children about intimacy, about some of

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Speaker 4: the ugly things in life, about alcohol and all that

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Speaker 4: kind of stuff before they're too about moving out, before

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Speaker 4: they are too they won't understand a word that you've

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Speaker 4: said it, but you get practicing saying it good, You

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Speaker 4: get your stories straight so that when you have to

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Speaker 4: deliver it land anyway, I think that we want to

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Speaker 4: start young. And this is what I recommend to parents.

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Speaker 4: Starts to teach responsibility young so that they're ready to

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Speaker 4: move out at any time, seven thirteen, whatever it is.

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Speaker 4: But you want to start teaching them those basics young.

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Speaker 4: They need to know how to do the chores. And

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Speaker 4: some people are saying, oh, I try to do the chores,

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Speaker 4: and you know, I end up in a fight with

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Speaker 4: the kids, or chaws never get done. We've got this

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Speaker 4: choor chart that's got three stars on it, and that

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Speaker 4: was in twenty seventeen and we haven't put another star

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Speaker 4: on it since. I think we've got to do a

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Speaker 4: couple of things to get those chores happening. First of all,

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Speaker 4: we want to make it relational. That is, our children

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Speaker 4: are usually happy to do things with us, but they

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Speaker 4: don't like being told to do things on their own,

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Speaker 4: especially when they're younger. So spend the time teaching them

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Speaker 4: and involving yourself with it. You might say it's going

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Speaker 4: to take too long, but it'll actually speed it up

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Speaker 4: because think about how much time you say you spend

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Speaker 4: saying would you please go and do that for the

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Speaker 4: fifteenth time, and then the tears and the drama, and

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Speaker 4: you end up going and doing yourself anyway because they

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Speaker 4: haven't done it properly. I think that the other thing

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Speaker 4: that you want to do is make sure that when

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Speaker 4: it comes to chores, I'm going to say that they

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Speaker 4: need to be cost neutral.

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Speaker 3: So no's got money for chores.

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Speaker 4: Don't pay for chores.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 4: Now, I know that Scott paid for the Barefoot Investor

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Speaker 4: has a slightly different opinion on that, and many people

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Speaker 4: who have read his Barefoot Investor for Families, and he says,

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Speaker 4: you know, he's got this little system for paying for chores.

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Speaker 4: For me, I just think that chores are part of

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Speaker 4: being in our family. You know, you make the mess

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Speaker 4: with us and you clean the mess up with us.

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Speaker 2: Because there's two there's two schools with thought. There's they've

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Speaker 2: got to learn that this is just no one gets

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Speaker 2: paid for this. We don't do it because we get paid.

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Speaker 2: It's just living a grown up sort of as you

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Speaker 2: grow up. This is a part of responsibility. On the

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Speaker 2: other hand, there is a principle to prepare them for

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Speaker 2: the working life, where you do some work you get paid.

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Speaker 2: But you can teach that one in another area of life.

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Speaker 4: Well, you can teach that when they're fourteen and nine

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Speaker 4: months and they go and get a job. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 4: I mean I kind of do struggle the fence a

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Speaker 4: little bit with my kids have got chores to do,

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Speaker 4: They've got stuff that has to be done. But we

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Speaker 4: also pay them for some of the big jobs, like

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Speaker 4: if I ask them to go and washing vacum the

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Speaker 4: car for example, if I've got to I'm not going

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Speaker 4: to do it. So if I'm going to do it,

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Speaker 4: it's going to go through a car wash, and I'm

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Speaker 4: going to pay fifteen dollars for it. So I'd rather

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Speaker 4: just give the kids the fifteen dollars and let them

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Speaker 4: do it. I still have to take it through the

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Speaker 4: car wash sometimes with that other story, But we also

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Speaker 4: want to make chores fun because the more fun they are,

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Speaker 4: the more likely the kids will be involved. Now this

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Speaker 4: is where we move from younger kids to older kids.

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Speaker 4: Let's say they're now old enough for a job. I

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Speaker 4: encourage parents to get their children to pay board. All

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Speaker 4: of my children pay board as soon as they've got

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Speaker 4: a job, and we work it out as a percentage.

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Speaker 4: So some parents have set our ten percent, twenty percent,

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Speaker 4: whatever it is, but the children pay board because that's

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Speaker 4: what you do when you move out, you pay rent,

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Speaker 4: you've got you've got a cost of living expense. We

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Speaker 4: don't need their four dollars a week or their twelve

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Speaker 4: dollars a week or whatever. It ends up being. What

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Speaker 4: we do with it, though, is we stick it into

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Speaker 4: a little account that we've set up that they don't

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Speaker 4: know about. I know it's being about right now, but

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Speaker 4: my kids an't going to hear this.

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Speaker 2: I hope listen to our show.

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Speaker 4: And then when they get to when they get to

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Speaker 4: a certain age, actually they do every now and again.

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Speaker 4: They come home as a dad. I heard you on

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Speaker 4: the radio today. I've got to be careful what I say.

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Speaker 4: But when they get to a certain age. In the

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Speaker 4: case of our oldest daughter, when she got married, we

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Speaker 4: sat down with her and her new husband and said, oh,

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Speaker 4: by the way, here's this bank account that's now yours,

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Speaker 4: and here's all that money that you paid us in board.

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Speaker 4: And she said, oh, I should have paid you properly,

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Speaker 4: shouldn't I. But what we've done is we've taught her

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Speaker 4: this life lesson, so she expects it now when we

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Speaker 4: get to the big kids. Which is really answering Craig's question,

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Speaker 4: there's a couple of things that I think are really

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Speaker 4: important to get to the you know, to get to

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Speaker 4: the guts of what he's asking.

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Speaker 3: When is it the right time to tell your kids

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Speaker 3: you're old enough to fend for yourself, you need to

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Speaker 3: leave the house, especially if they're not motivated to get

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Speaker 3: a job.

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Speaker 4: So I've given advice on this topic many times over

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Speaker 4: the years, but it was only in the last couple

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Speaker 4: of years that my oldest got to that point, and

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Speaker 4: I had the privilege the experience of going through that

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Speaker 4: with her. She finished high school, she started university. It

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Speaker 4: wasn't going well for her. She was unhappy there. It

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Speaker 4: was a long commute, she wasn't interested or passionate in

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Speaker 4: what she was studying at all. And one day she

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Speaker 4: came to me said, Dad, I think I need to

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Speaker 4: quit UNI now for the guy that's got the PhD

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Speaker 4: and teaches people how to raise great kids. I was crushed. No,

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Speaker 4: this can't happen to me, But this story is illustrative

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Speaker 4: of what I got to practice what I preach. So

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Speaker 4: I said to her, you will finish the semester and

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Speaker 4: you will pass. And so we kind of worked through that.

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Speaker 4: But by the time we ground our way to the

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Speaker 4: end of semester, we'd had another couple of conversations and

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Speaker 4: I said, I think a gap year is a good idea.

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Speaker 4: In fact, I've really become a fan of the gap year,

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Speaker 4: not just for her, but with so many parents that

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Speaker 4: I've spoken to who said it was so important for

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Speaker 4: my child to grow up and have that gap year.

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Speaker 4: But this is what I believe about a gap year.

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Speaker 4: A few years ago, Premier Peter Beatty had this phrase

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Speaker 4: that he used for young peace people. He said, our

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Speaker 4: young people need to either be earning or learning. And

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Speaker 4: so when my eldest said, so, I think I'm just

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Speaker 4: going to go and keep on working part time down

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Speaker 4: at the local cafe and hashtag cafe life. I will

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Speaker 4: work fifteen hours a week and I'm just going to

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Speaker 4: go to some music festivals and say I have it's

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Speaker 4: some money and do some travel. I said, no, that's

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Speaker 4: not how it will work. If you want to stay

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Speaker 4: living in my home, you'll be working full time, or

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Speaker 4: you'll be studying full time. You'll be earning or learning,

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Speaker 4: and it's full time. And we went backwards and forwards

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Speaker 4: on this for a couple of days because she was

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Speaker 4: really put out You're like, you can't do that, and

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Speaker 4: I said, actually I can, because I've raised you to

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Speaker 4: have that expectation. I said, you're welcome to stay here,

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Speaker 4: but my children have also been told once you start

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Speaker 4: paying bored, please know that when you're eighteen, I no

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Speaker 4: longer have a financial responsibility for you. And I think

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Speaker 4: that every parent should say this to their kids. If

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Speaker 4: you're earning, you don't need me to be financially responsible

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Speaker 4: for you. If you're learning, you're welcome to stay in

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Speaker 4: our home, and we'll continue to provide the basics that

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Speaker 4: we've been providing. But we're not going to buy your clothes.

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Speaker 4: We're not going to buy your take out, when going

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Speaker 4: to pay for you to go to the movies with

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Speaker 4: your friends or do any of you extra career. We're

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Speaker 4: not going to pay for that stuff. You can stay

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Speaker 4: in your room and have the essentials that we're contributing anyway,

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Speaker 4: but that's it. No more financial responsibility for you. You're

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Speaker 4: doing it on your own. I'm watching families practice what

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Speaker 4: I've shared and then seeing my own daughter go through that.

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Speaker 4: She went and got a job, and I've got to

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Speaker 4: be honest. I say this with the greatest of respect,

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Speaker 4: because I know that people do honorable work no matter

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Speaker 4: what they're doing. She went and got a job that

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Speaker 4: was hard work. She got a job doing what you

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Speaker 4: would probably call menial labor. And I say that again

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Speaker 4: with great respect. We need people to do all kinds

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Speaker 4: of jobs, and we're grateful that they have jobs. But

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Speaker 4: she went and got one of one of those jobs.

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Speaker 4: She's been doing it for a year and a half.

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Speaker 4: But now that she's had that job for a year

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Speaker 4: and a half, she's excited about going back to school.

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Speaker 4: She came to recently said Dad, I've enrolled. I'm going

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Speaker 4: back to school next year because I would like to

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Speaker 4: do other things with my life other than this. I

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Speaker 4: think that there are other things. I don't think we

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Speaker 4: want to send our kids to university. University is adults,

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Speaker 4: not children. We don't send our children to university. So,

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Speaker 4: to move back to Craig's question, that's the conversation that

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Speaker 4: you have, you pay board, you're earning or learning, or

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Speaker 4: you find somewhere else that we have. Plenty of your

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Speaker 4: friends have got couches that you can sleep on. How

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Speaker 4: comfortable is that going to be? How much would it

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Speaker 4: cost you to live elsewhere? Easier choices, and then you

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Speaker 4: give them a timeframe. We need a decision by the

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Speaker 4: end of next week or an end of next month,

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Speaker 4: or by the end of the year. But once we

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Speaker 4: kick off twenty twenty or whenever it is, that's where

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Speaker 4: we're going.

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Speaker 2: From my perspective, Like, you've got this concept of a

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Speaker 2: teenager who's not motivated to get a job, and how

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Speaker 2: from your experience much of you've seen that that's because

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Speaker 2: they've got a poor work ethic or they're taking you

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Speaker 2: for granted, versus a concept of they don't know who

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Speaker 2: they are and where they're going. They haven't found themselves,

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Speaker 2: so yeah, they're lacking direction and they're therefore they're lacking motivation.

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Speaker 2: Like how much is just a work ethic versus that

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Speaker 2: concept of the kids that are supposed to be more

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Speaker 2: grown up but they just don't haven't got themselves yet.

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Speaker 4: Two responses. Number one, do the work, then find the inspiration.

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Speaker 4: And number two, if you don't have a work ethic,

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Speaker 4: you're not going to get it by sitting in your

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Speaker 4: lands room thinking about what you should do with your life.

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Speaker 4: Go out and get a job, go and get on

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Speaker 4: with it. Start paying bored, Start contributing to the world.

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Speaker 4: And as my daughter has discovered, you will find out

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Speaker 4: fairly soon whether you're well suited to that job or not.

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Speaker 4: And if you're not, then it's time. That's where the

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Speaker 4: inspiration comes. Okay, I don't want to live this life.

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Speaker 4: So what life do I want to live? What changes

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Speaker 4: will I make? What courses will I enroll in? What

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Speaker 4: people will I meet? What networking will I do? What

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Speaker 4: opportunities will I pursue?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I just I remember when I was, and I

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Speaker 2: was a bit younger than probably this question is based on.

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Speaker 2: But I was. I was fifteen when my dad he

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Speaker 2: just was at the end of his tether with me

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Speaker 2: and he called me lazy.

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Speaker 4: And he what parent hasn't said that to their fifteen

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Speaker 4: year old at some point.

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Speaker 2: But this was a full on confrontation. But anybody who

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Speaker 2: knows me and has known me for any period of

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Speaker 2: time would use a lot of words for me. And

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Speaker 2: when it comes to work and work anything that's not

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Speaker 2: one of them, there's a lot of other things they

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Speaker 2: can throw. I wasn't lazy. I just didn't like doing

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Speaker 2: his work. He was a truck driver, he was a farmer,

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Speaker 2: he was a manual laborer, and there was nothing that

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Speaker 2: could kill my soul more than that physical lifting and

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Speaker 2: moving and so.

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Speaker 4: But you got creative, right, Yes, you got creative because

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Speaker 4: there was an expectation that you would get on with something.

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Speaker 4: And that's really the point here. I mean my dad.

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Speaker 4: My dad's a furniture removalist. He runs a furniture removals company.

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Speaker 4: I guess you'd call that, you know, blue collar work.

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Speaker 4: That would be meaning or labor. When I put myself

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Speaker 4: through a university as a late twenties father of three

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Speaker 4: and then four and then five, I did interstate furniture removals,

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Speaker 4: a truck driving.

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Speaker 2: Did I like it?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 4: Was it hard? Absolutely? But boy boy, did it teach

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Speaker 4: me some lessons? And did I find the inspiration to

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Speaker 4: do what I'm now doing? Because that heck here?

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Speaker 2: So if we bring our nephew back into it. Our

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Speaker 2: nephew contacted us and said can I come live with you?

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Speaker 2: And we interviewed him before we were willing to say

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Speaker 2: yes or nae no, and we asked a lot of

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Speaker 2: questions and one of the questions was, you know, he

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Speaker 2: was lacking motivation. He was exactly what this story was.

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Speaker 2: And we said, so what makes you think it'll be

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Speaker 2: different here, And he said, because I know that when

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Speaker 2: I'm with mom and Dad, I just there's the tension

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Speaker 2: and it's it's tense, but it's also well, I don't

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Speaker 2: have to because they're just gonna, Like I know, subconsciously,

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Speaker 2: there's this safety net. But I'm pretty confident that if

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Speaker 2: I get out from that safety net that I will

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Speaker 2: actually be more driven to take care of myself. And

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Speaker 2: it's what's happened.

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Speaker 4: So glad that you said that, though. I think as

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Speaker 4: parents we've got to say I love you, but if

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Speaker 4: you hear, you're earning a learning. Otherwise you're finding somewhere else.

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Speaker 4: But if things go bad, don't ever be afraid to

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Speaker 4: call me I love you, I I'm here, but get

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Speaker 4: out or get on with work or get on with stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well it's it's been a very valuable conversation and

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Speaker 2: there's so much more we can talk about, as is

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Speaker 2: always the case with doctor Justin Colson. Thank you so much,

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Speaker 2: mate for your time.

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Speaker 4: Great to be with you.

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Speaker 3: To find out more info on all of Justin's books, podcasts,

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Speaker 3: and program you can go online to Happy Families dot

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Speaker 3: com dot au and to find out How to have

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Speaker 3: Justin come and speak at your school, organization, or event.

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Speaker 3: Go to justincultson dot com