1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: In a world obsessed with habits and routines. What if 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: I like to hold you There's something even more powerful. 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: Meet Michael Norton, Harvard Business School professor and author of 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: The Ritual Effect. Michael's groundbreaking research has revealed how simple 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: rituals can transform our relationships, boost job satisfaction, and inject 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: meaning into our everyday lives. But what exactly is a 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,919 Speaker 1: ritual and how is it different from a habit? How 8 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: can we harness the power of rituals to improve our 9 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: work and our personal lives? And why might clinking your 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: silverware be the secret to a happier relationship. Welcome to 11 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and strategies 12 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. 13 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: When I was researching Michael before this in You, something 14 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: I heard him say is that good habits automate us 15 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: and rituals animate us. So I wanted to know how 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: exactly a habit's different from rituals. 17 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: One thing I want to say. First off, I'm not 18 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 2: anti habit. I think good habits are great. You know, 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 2: I wish I had better habits, and I wish I 20 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 2: exercised and all this kind of stuff. But after a 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 2: while I kind of started thinking, imagine, starting today, you 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: had perfect habits for the rest of your life. Every 23 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 2: morning you did the steps and the eating right, and 24 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: like perfect. 25 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 3: Perfect, perfect. 26 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 2: I was thinking that after let's say thirty years of that, 27 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 2: you'd be super healthy. But would you feel like you 28 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 2: had an interesting life, or a rich life, or a 29 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 2: full kind of life? And I think for me, at least, 30 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 2: the answer is no. You probably would have gotten divorced 31 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: because your spouse probably couldn't stand how rigid you were 32 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: with your habits, you know, And that really got me 33 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 2: thinking that there's more to it than just good habits. 34 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 3: Habits are wonderful. 35 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: We can check them off our list and get them done, 36 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 2: and that's really good for us, but they leave out 37 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: a lot of the other range of human experience. And 38 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 2: one of the things that really relates to that huge 39 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: range of our emotional lives is rituals. We use rituals 40 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 2: all over the place for so many different things in 41 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 2: our lives, and I just really wanted to dive into it. 42 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: When I read your book The Ritual Effect. It got 43 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: me thinking, obviously about the rituals that I have in 44 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: my life and thinking how did they even come about? 45 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: And I loved how in the book you shared quite 46 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: a few of your rituals. I remember there was one 47 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: where you talk about how you'll pace back and forth 48 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: in your office about thirty minutes before your lectures, and 49 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: I wanted to know how have you gone about creating 50 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: rituals in your life? Because they're obviously so friend of mine, 51 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: because they're so katy your research. 52 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: What's so funny is I think sometimes they just happen 53 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: to us. So I think sometimes life throws things at us, 54 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: and one of the things that we use in response 55 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: is something like a ritual. So for me, for example, 56 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 2: when my wife and I had our daughter, we you know, 57 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: when you have a kid, you have a baby, and 58 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 2: then they say take that home with you and then 59 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: there you go. 60 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 3: You know, that's like that's it. They're like, good luck 61 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 3: with that. 62 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 2: Nobody knows anything, and one of the things you're trying 63 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: to do is just figure out what to do. And 64 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 2: of course it's like sleep. Any new parent is like sleep, 65 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 2: are you sleeping? Is the baby sleeping house? 66 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 3: A sleep? 67 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: So we were nervous about that too, and we wanted 68 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: our daughter to sleep, and we just started doing stuff. 69 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 2: We were just trying to like experiment with how do 70 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: we help her get some rest? And then suddenly, after 71 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 2: like a couple of months, we realized we had some 72 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 2: insanely elaborate. 73 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 3: Process in place that was very specific. 74 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: You know. It was like this book, then that song, 75 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 2: then the bath, then a bottle, then these two stuffed animals. 76 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it was like a very If 77 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: you mapped it out, it what looked like we were crazy. 78 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 2: And then of course all new parents are doing the 79 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: same thing. It's just slightly different books and different songs 80 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: and things like that. And so there it wasn't a 81 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: case where we said, oh my gosh, we're having a baby, 82 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: let's sit down and write out a ritual that we 83 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: can use for bedtime. It's just that the world got 84 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: uncertain and threw us off, and we spontaneous brought ritual 85 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: to bear in our own specific kind of way. For sure, 86 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 2: we have rituals that are religious or that are you know, 87 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: from tradition and things like that, and those are really 88 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: important in our lives. But the kind that I got 89 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: really interested in at the kind where people just come 90 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: up with almost out of thin air, and they can 91 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: be really random and really funny, and yet then people say, boy, 92 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 2: I really feel a lot better after I did that one. 93 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: It's interesting because there's obviously so much power in rituals, 94 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: and I read the book and I thought, I want 95 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: to create more rituals in my life, like both in 96 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: my personal life and in my work life. Let's just 97 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: say I was standing from a blank slate, what advice 98 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: would you give me? 99 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: I think the first thing is where do you need them? So, like, 100 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: for example, we did research on performance anxiety, and lots 101 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 2: of people do rituals when they're nervous, like celebrities do it, 102 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: but also regular people like us do it as well. 103 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: But some people don't have performance anxiety. So if you don't, 104 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: don't bother with trying out a ritual, do you know 105 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 2: what I mean? But sometimes we need them when we 106 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 2: need them, and we don't always need them in every situation. 107 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 2: But if there's places where you think, you know, it's 108 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 2: not exactly going exactly how I wanted it to go, 109 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: those are sometimes places where it's good to experiment. 110 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 3: So something like a family ritual at dinner. 111 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 2: In my family, what we do at the beginning of 112 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 2: every dinner is we do gratitude, where each person says 113 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: something that happened that they're grateful for. My daughter tends 114 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 2: to reuse the same one because she's not that interested 115 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: in doing. But hopefully, we're thinking over time it'll kind 116 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 2: of sink in. But why do we do gratitude is 117 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: because my wife and I think that's an incredibly important 118 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 2: thing to be in life, is to feel grateful. There's 119 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: a family that we came across that whenever something goes 120 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 2: well for them during the day, they write it on 121 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: a piece of paper and put it in a fish bowl. 122 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 2: You don't read them at all, and then once a 123 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: year they all take out all the things they put 124 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 2: in the fish bowl and just celebrate each other's success, 125 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 2: which is just that definitely not like a thousand year 126 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: old tradition. And yet you can see this family that 127 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: thought we should celebrate each other's wins, and we should 128 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 2: do it in a way that's idiosyncratic and a little 129 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 2: funny and a little different. 130 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: Do you think, like, if you're trying to create a ritual, 131 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: you need quite a dose of creativity, I mean, and 132 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: given the rituals that I've heard you talk about, they're 133 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: a lot of them are very quirky as opposed to straightforward. 134 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: If you're kind of starting with value, the ritual that 135 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: gets developed is often quite surprising. 136 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 3: I think. 137 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: One of the things that's very, very common in couples, 138 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 2: for example, is something in the morning involving coffee or tea. 139 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 2: One person makes it for the other person. They both 140 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: make sure they have it every morning together before work. 141 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of things in the morning, 142 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 2: specifically around coffee and tea. Coffee and tea that is 143 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 2: not creative, you know what I mean. Lots of people 144 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 2: drink coffee and tea. It's not the coffee. You don't 145 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,559 Speaker 2: need some crazy liquid in order to have something really 146 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 2: special with your spouse. It's not just caffeine in a cup. 147 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 2: But it's something that I'm making from my spouse and 148 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: delivering it to them every morning or every sun day 149 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 2: or whatever it might be, for years and years and years, 150 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: and then it can start to have all this meaning. 151 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 2: Even if it's just liquid in a cup. It's not 152 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 2: liquid in a cup. It becomes something more than that. 153 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: It's actually bizarre and wonderful that we're able to do 154 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 2: this as humans. 155 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: Let's stay on the topic of relationships because there's quite 156 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: a significant section about that in the Ritual Effect, and 157 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: I was thinking about that. My partner Neo and I 158 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: we've got various rituals, and it's funny one that we've 159 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: had since very early on in our relationship. For it, 160 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: from a few years back, is that we started doing 161 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: this monthly check in where every month or so, over 162 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: sort of four to six weeks, we would sit down. 163 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: It would sometimes just be on the couch at home, 164 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: sometimes it would be out at a date night at 165 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: a restaurant, and we would have a set list of 166 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: questions that we would go through, maybe eight or nine 167 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: questions about what are we appreciating about the other person, 168 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: what's frustrating us connection activities, do we want to plan 169 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: for the coming month, and a whole lot of them. 170 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: We went through that a few weeks ago we were 171 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: on holiday in Vietnam, and it kind of occurred to 172 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: us both, this ritual is no longer serving us. It 173 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: feels like these are not the right questions, and I'd 174 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: love to get your insight on that, Like when do 175 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: you know that it's time to refresh a ritual or 176 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: drop a ritual? 177 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love this question. I also love that the 178 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: ritual that you did. You said sometimes it was on 179 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: date night, but it didn't need to be. I think 180 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: when we talk about relationship rituals and we said, you know, 181 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: someone says, well, how do I start one? What should 182 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 2: I do? The default often is date night. What we 183 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: should do is every Friday we should get a babysitter 184 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 2: or whatever we need to do and go out for dinner, 185 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 2: and then that will be good. 186 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 3: But it isn't necessarily right. 187 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: I mean, if neither of us like going out to dinner, 188 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: why would we make a date night into our ritual? Right, 189 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 2: So for you, it could have been on a date night, 190 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 2: but that wasn't the ritual, right. The ritual was this 191 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: thing that you did together where you express curiosity about 192 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: each other and make sure you're on the same page. 193 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 2: To have a ritual, it is really what you're bringing 194 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 2: to it. But you're completely right that rituals we outgrow them, 195 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 2: just like often sometimes very quickly. And again it's because 196 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: we often bring them to bear when we're faced with 197 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 2: something where we need a little help. So, for example, 198 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 2: our daughter is eight now, and if we tried to 199 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 2: do the bedtime ritual that we used to do, she'd be. 200 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 3: Like, this is stupid. You know, I don't need all 201 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 3: these silly books or whatever. 202 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: Of course, right because she's fine sleeping now, I don't 203 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: need to do this anymore. And so often, like the 204 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 2: world will move on sometimes and then we say, oh, actually, 205 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: I don't need to keep doing that. With grief, for example, 206 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: you know, people often will do something to honor the 207 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: person they lost every day, every week, every month, but 208 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: they don't necessarily do it for the rest of their lives. 209 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 3: They do it. 210 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 2: While they're still really acutely experiencing grief, and then years later, 211 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 2: it's not that they're never totally over a grief, but 212 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: they don't need to do that specific ritual anymore because 213 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: they're in a different place with their grief and. 214 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: Have it Like I'm just thinking about Fino and I 215 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: should we go about creating a new ritual because we're 216 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: at a different stage of our relationship and the old 217 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 1: ritual we just weren't feeling like it was providing any 218 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: value anymore. 219 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 3: What was the check in? 220 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think because we are both quite self optimizer people, 221 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 1: we're like, how can we firstly make sure we communicate 222 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: really well? Which I think comes naturally to both of us, 223 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: and we've both been divorced and this is our second 224 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: significant relationship in life, so we've learned a lot from that. 225 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: And we obviously no communications critical in relationships, and so 226 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: we wanted a time where we could exactly, like you said, 227 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: get curious, but also potentially tackle some of the more 228 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: challenging things that you don't want to talk about in 229 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: a relationship. And I guess be really mindful in how 230 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: we were showing up for each other. So it wasn't 231 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: necessarily about getting to know each other, although there was 232 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: a component of that. I think it was checking in 233 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: and being present and not taking for granted and having 234 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: this communication forum. 235 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's great. I mean, the communication is good. 236 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: Some couples it comes naturally, and other couples are like, 237 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 2: you know, we need to put something in place to 238 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 2: make sure that we're community. A couple's therapy is another 239 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: version of that, right where we're going to once a week, 240 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: we're going to make sure we have to communicate for 241 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 2: fifty minutes no matter what. That's our commitment to each other. 242 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 2: But just like with your ritual or with couples therapy, 243 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 2: sometimes you've learned how to do the thing without needing 244 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 2: to have some specific time at which you do the thing. 245 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: So I would imagine that in a way, the themes 246 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: of those conversations still come up between the two of you, 247 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: but not in a we need to talk about this 248 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: like at this time, or we won't, but just in 249 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 2: a these are things that we talk about now. They 250 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 2: kind of help us become familiar or comfortable with something, 251 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 2: and then we're still doing them a little bit, but 252 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 2: we don't need the rigid it has to be Tuesday 253 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 2: at three o'clock or we'll never get it done. 254 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: We recently went to Vietnam and I was reflecting how how, 255 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: just by I don't even know how, we created this 256 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: really great morning ritual where we'd wake up, we'd go 257 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: watch the sunrise, we'd go for a swim, we'd go 258 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: to the gym, we'd have breakfast, and it seems quite simple, 259 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: but it just brought such joy to the mornings. And 260 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: I don't think I even realized that that was a 261 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: ritual at the time, but looking back, I'm like, that 262 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: was one of the best things about the holiday. I'm 263 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: morning Richel. Can you shed light on how these things 264 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: develop and how we can be more mindful in creating 265 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: more meaning through these rituals in our life. 266 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: And you don't do sunrise swim at home. It's kind 267 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 2: of when you went to a new environment you started this. 268 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: Yes, as we're recording this in Melbourne, it's early, it's dark. 269 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: I'm thinking my day is not starting with sunrise, Mike, 270 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: and it's certainly not starting with a swim because I 271 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: think it's ten degrees celsius outside. 272 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 3: Yeah. 273 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is something that's so funny though, that sometimes 274 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,719 Speaker 2: a new context prompts us to think differently about it, right, 275 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 2: that we don't have to do the same thing we've 276 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: always done because in a new context, because we get 277 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: pretty stuck and you know, the morning, I gotta get 278 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 2: the coffee or what you know what I mean, we 279 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: get in these routines, I guess is what I would say. 280 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: And it does take effort to take a beat and say, 281 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 2: wait a minute, maybe we could do something even though 282 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: we're not on holiday and it's not you know, amazingly new, 283 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 2: are there things we could bring back from that that 284 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 2: might still be really valuable. So I do think lying 285 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 2: around us sometimes are the things that we can use already, 286 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: but we just get stuck and got to get to 287 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 2: work something like that, and it's hard to step out 288 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: of it until the world shoots us out of it, 289 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: and then we'll often quite creative once we're needing it. 290 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: It's given me some good food for thought. Mike. I'm 291 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: going to go back to NEO and tell them about 292 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: this little segment of our interview and say, how can 293 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: we bring some of that morning back to our Melbourne mornings. 294 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: I like that now. One of other things that that 295 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: you write and talk about is the role that richels 296 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: play in our self identity. I really was interested in 297 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 1: how we can use richels when our self identity shifts, 298 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: and in the ritual effect. You spoke about how when 299 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: you received tenure, like that's obviously quite a significant shift 300 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: in your work identity who you are job security, but 301 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: day to day your work didn't actually change that much. 302 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: And I was curious around what rituals did you use 303 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: to shift yourself identity, whether they be conscious or unconscious 304 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: things that emerged. 305 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 2: You know. It's it's so funny with rights of passage, 306 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: the skeptics would be like, I don't do any rituals. 307 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: You know, those are for like people who like crystals 308 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: or whatever. You know, the cricuals are not for me. 309 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: And one of the example that I always say is like, 310 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 2: have you ever put on a robe and a weird 311 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 2: hat and walked up on a stage and walked across 312 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: the stage and taken a piece of paper from somebody 313 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: that's rolled up in a thing and then gotten off 314 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: the stage? And then everybody else did in the course? 315 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: Pople say oh, yeah, of course they've done that, And 316 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 2: I say, why why did you do that? What was 317 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 2: the point of the robe and everything? Because your coursework 318 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: was done these graduations like, of course we do that. 319 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 2: It's not like you don't graduate until put the robond typically, 320 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: So why do. 321 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 3: We do things like that? 322 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: And I mean every culture does things like this, especially 323 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 2: between childhood and adulthood, where they market somehow with you 324 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: were that and now you're this, And the question is 325 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 2: why do we do it? 326 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 3: So we don't do that to four year olds. 327 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: We're aware that they're too little to be adults, so 328 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 2: we don't say you put the robond on your four 329 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: and now you're supposed to be an adult. We do 330 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: it when the moment is around, when we're ready, and 331 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: that's when we say, okay, now you're going to go 332 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: from being a kid to an adult. And I think 333 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: the same with our careers as well. You know, when 334 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: we get promotions, you don't typically get promoted to tenure 335 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 2: of the day you start, because you just started. 336 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 3: You're not ready really for the other responsibilities. 337 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: So back when you were saved tenure, do you remember 338 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: doing anything or changing anything differently to help support that 339 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: change in self identity. 340 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: I think tenure is funny because there's not a ceremony 341 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: like retirement. We typically don't have an official thing. You 342 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: might have like a cake or something like that, but 343 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 2: we don't have like ceremonies for promotions in the way 344 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: that we do for retirements, which is just interesting. I 345 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 2: did have an experience that I for some reason it's 346 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: so vivid to me, where I was in a meeting 347 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: with maybe like fifteen other people around a table and 348 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 2: the meeting wasn't starting, and I was kind of like, 349 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 2: what why is this meeting get started now? Like what 350 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: are we waiting for? Looking at the clock and stuff 351 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: like that, And then I realized that I was the 352 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 2: oldest person and had tenure, and so everybody was waiting 353 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 2: for me to do it because it was the oldest 354 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: person here. I think they should start the meeting. But 355 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: you see these things where you also get conferred upon 356 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 2: you now other people will see you differently as well. 357 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 2: It isn't just that I see myself differently. It's that 358 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 2: now the world says, oh, he's. 359 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 3: A different person. 360 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 2: Now we have different expectations for him. He's supposed to 361 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 2: do different things. That can be like a nightmare, like 362 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: how I God, I'm trapped, or it's a reflection of where. 363 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 3: You are in your life, and it means truly, hopefully. 364 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: I am a little bit different, you know, than I 365 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: was when I was twenty five, now that I have tenure. 366 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. I'm also thinking about my own life 367 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: where I recently shifted into a slightly different role in 368 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: my business. I was in this acting CEO role and 369 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: now I've put someone else in that role and I've 370 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: moved back to more of a creative kind of role. 371 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: And I remember when that happened, I completely rearranged my desk, 372 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: my work set up, and shifted monitors around, and I 373 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: thought like, that will be really good to DeMar kate 374 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,479 Speaker 1: the old me with the new me, because also I 375 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: need to behave differently in order to let the new 376 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: CEO do her job really well, I'm wondering, now should 377 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: I be creating some new rituals as well, because I'm 378 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: sure that there's many people listening that maybe have just 379 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 1: changed jobs or thinking about changing jobs, or what should 380 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: I be thinking about now in terms of continuing like 381 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: using rituals to shift my self identity. 382 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: It's funny my research group here, which we creatively called 383 00:17:58,760 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: nerd Lab because. 384 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 3: We're Nerds of the West. 385 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have a thing that's called Random Ideas Day, 386 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 2: and Random Ideas Day is everybody has to bring in 387 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 2: an idea about humans, about how humans work, like as 388 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 2: broadly defined as you possibly could, and share it with 389 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: the group and we brainstorm about it. But the rule 390 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 2: is you cannot work on that idea. It's random ideas 391 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 2: And it's like it seems maybe like a waste of time, 392 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: you know, bring ideas and then you to throw them away. 393 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: But what we're trying to do is say the most 394 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 2: important thing is being creative, but coming up with ideas 395 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 2: is the currency. It's not writing stuff or doing statistics 396 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: that s it's all important or whatever. 397 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 3: That's not what it is though. 398 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 2: It's actually the creativity that's really valued, that we really 399 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 2: care about and celebrate. The job is come up with 400 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: as many ideas as you can. They don't be good, 401 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 2: they don't have to be bad. So we're using that 402 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: ritual to really try to communicate we're supposed to be 403 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 2: a creative, supportive community. And I think for you as well, 404 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: you can think about what are the rituals you put 405 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 2: in place. If the value that you have is creativity, 406 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 2: what are you going to put in place every day 407 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 2: or every week by yourself or with other people that 408 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 2: shows like, no, no, this is creative time. It's not 409 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 2: the email time, it's not the meetings time. This is 410 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 2: the creative time. And even just carving space like that 411 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 2: out is incredibly valuable because I mean every organization is 412 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 2: like we're a learning organization or we're innovative or whatever, 413 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 2: and then you look at what people do every day 414 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 2: and so it's not reflected in any of the tasks 415 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 2: that people do. There's nothing that your employees do that 416 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 2: have anything to do with the values you're saying. So 417 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 2: of course it's not going to happen until you start 418 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,200 Speaker 2: putting things in place where you say, you know what, 419 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 2: every Friday at two o'clock is innovation time, whatever that means. 420 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: I'm just riffing, but you know you really have to 421 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 2: say no, no, We're going to put these structures into 422 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: place so we give people time and space to do 423 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 2: the thing that we're all hoping that they do. 424 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: I like that approach. We will be back with Michael 425 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: soon where he talks me through how we can develop 426 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: powerful rituals at work that drive connection to our team 427 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: and also motivation for what we do. If you're looking 428 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: for more tips to improve the way you work can live. 429 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: I write a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've 430 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: discovered that have helped me personally. You can sign up 431 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: for that at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. 432 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: I do want to delve into rituals at work because 433 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: I was really intrigued around some of the things that 434 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: you're writing there, and you gave a lot of interesting 435 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: examples around different rituals that were in different workplaces, and 436 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: when I was reading them, I kind of noticed that 437 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: a lot of them felt like they were dependent on 438 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: being face to face. Now that we're in this hybrid 439 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 1: world and certainly my organization is remote. First, we gave 440 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: up all our office leases. I'd love to know what 441 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: are some of the most interesting rituals that you've seen 442 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: that can happen in a remote environment. 443 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 2: You know what's so funny is I signed this contract 444 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 2: to write this book in January of twenty twenty and 445 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 2: thinking of the world as it was in January of 446 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 2: twenty twenty and the world in twenty twenty four is 447 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 2: just with work. 448 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 3: It's just like it's a completely different world. 449 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 2: It's there's so much less face to face, there's so 450 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: much everything, and so you could imagine that when everything 451 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 2: goes online, what people do is say, we don't need 452 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 2: any rituals, like those are a waste of time anyway, 453 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 2: let's skip them. 454 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 3: Now that we're online. 455 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: Even with something like weddings, you know, you could be like, 456 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 2: you know what, weddings were a pain, Let's not do 457 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 2: weddings now that we're online. It's not what people do, like, 458 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 2: how do we make a wedding online? Right? We bring 459 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: it to the medium and try to make it work. 460 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 2: And we saw that at work too. There's a team 461 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 2: I talked to you that I love that they started 462 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: doing when they went remote. They started doing at the 463 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 2: beginning of every zoom meeting, everyone would click the emoji 464 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 2: that reflected how they were feeling. You could also see, 465 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 2: is anybody not doing well? You know, maybe I should 466 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: follow up with them, But in a very low stakes way. 467 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 3: It wasn't like a ason. 468 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 2: As you clicked sad emoji, everyone was like, boom, you know, 469 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: let's focus on him right now and make sure right 470 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: that's the worst and that What was so cool about 471 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 2: this team was they hadn't done anything like that before 472 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 2: they went online. 473 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 3: It wasn't like they. 474 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 2: Had a ritual in person where they would check in 475 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: with each other. 476 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 3: They didn't at all. 477 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 2: They just started meetings and so they used the different 478 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 2: medium to create a ritual that actually was fantastic for 479 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 2: them that never would have occurred to them before. 480 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: What did you do with the nerd Lab during the 481 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: COVID times when presumably you were all remote? 482 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 2: We went remote and we tried to do random ideas 483 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: as well. One of the things that we love to 484 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 2: do is the quick conversations that happened at the beginning 485 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 2: of meetings where just randomly you and I happen to 486 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: show up first and we chat for two minutes and 487 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: the number to go to get there. Of course, with zoom. 488 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 2: That doesn't happen. You're all in the screen at once. 489 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: You can't have one conversation because it's somebody's watching. So 490 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,239 Speaker 2: we started doing things like before the meeting started, if 491 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 2: you got there, you just got like zipped into a 492 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 2: room with somebody else, to try to simulate those random, 493 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: little quick conversations before the meeting. It was just supposed 494 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: to be the like, hey, how's it going. We're here first, 495 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,199 Speaker 2: So we did a little bit of that, And what 496 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 2: we're trying to do there is again spur the quick 497 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 2: conversation between people that you might not otherwise chat with 498 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 2: and just see what comes of it, you know, see 499 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 2: if anything ideas come out of it or collaborations come 500 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 2: out of it that might not have otherwise. So we're 501 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 2: trying the best we could to sort of engineer the 502 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 2: same spirit. What we're trying to do was use the 503 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 2: medium as best we could to still have some of 504 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 2: the things that we loved. 505 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: Were there any other ritels you found? What's well is. 506 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 3: Ritels for the grave when you're remote, for sure. 507 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 2: I think one of the most important things is like 508 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 2: if I go to a company and chat with people 509 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: there and I say rituals or something like that. Most 510 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 2: employees roll their eyes and they're like, oh my god, 511 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 2: because they think I mean like corporate retreats or even worse, 512 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: like the nightmare manager of the world is the one 513 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 2: who comes in on Monday and is like, I heard 514 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 2: a podcast or I saw a Ted talk and now 515 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: we're going to do everything like this from now you know, 516 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 2: Oh my god, you know, here they go again. And 517 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 2: so what we have seen that when rituals are mandated 518 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 2: from on high, they really can lead to reactance. Employees 519 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: are like, I'm not going to do that stupid. 520 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 521 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: I mean, I'll do it because you're my boss, but 522 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 2: it's not going to resonate with me emotionally. The ones 523 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: that people really value are actually the ones that come 524 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 2: from the bottom up, from employees themselves, from the teams themselves. 525 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 3: It's not going to work. 526 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: Can do them with kids either, you know, it just 527 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: doesn't work in the world to do that. So it 528 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 2: is this kind that bubble up from the creativity of teams, 529 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 2: often based on again, the values that they really care about. 530 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 2: There was a team that we say, is there anything 531 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 2: you do that's unique to your team that special? You 532 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 2: make sure to do it every so often, lots of 533 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 2: teams say yes. This one team described as a very 534 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: elaborate thing they did with lunch, which was five days 535 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 2: in the week. I think five people on the team, 536 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 2: so one person was responsible for lunch every day, so 537 00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: they'd bring it in. You know, I was Monday, you 538 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 2: were two, and we did that every single week. And 539 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 2: in any case, it's just lunch. We're just going to 540 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 2: eat lunch. It's not a big deal. But what the 541 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 2: team is doing is they're saying, like, one day a week, 542 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: I take care of everyone on the team, and every 543 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 2: other day of the week someone on the team takes 544 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 2: care of me with food. It could be anything, but 545 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 2: it's with food. What are they doing there. They're taking 546 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 2: lunch and turning it into something that means they care 547 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: about each other and they're supportive of each other. And 548 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 2: the reason I think of that example is because if 549 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 2: management said here's a chart and everyone has to get 550 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 2: lunch for it, you know what, I mean your Friday 551 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 2: and you too, you know, I mean to be a 552 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 2: night like, oh my god, what if you do this? 553 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: So you can see the real difference between coming from 554 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 2: employees versus coming from on high. 555 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: What are those key ingredients for a good ritual at work. 556 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 2: The idea is to give people the space to be 557 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 2: creative and do things that mean something to them rather 558 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 2: than tell them exactly what to do. So you can think, 559 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 2: how do you start meetings, how do you end meetings? 560 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 2: What do you do for meals? What do you do 561 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,479 Speaker 2: after work together? Do you have any little inside jokes 562 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: that you have on your team that other teams don't have. 563 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 2: Do you have a little shared language that you use. 564 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 2: We can just get them starting to think about their 565 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 2: culture in their team, even a three person team. We 566 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 2: can get them thinking about how are we the same 567 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 2: and how are we different from other teams? And most 568 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 2: teams will say, well, you know what, actually we do 569 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: this thing a little bit differently than other teams do it, 570 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 2: whatever it might be. Those are the great places to 571 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 2: start with building a ritual because you're already saying there's 572 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 2: something about our team that's unique, and we're just going 573 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 2: to kind of build it out a little bit and 574 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 2: value it a little bit more. 575 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: It probably leads me on to asking about routines versus rituals, 576 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: which you talk more about in the context of relationships. 577 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 1: But I also wonder if it might be relevant for 578 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: work as well, where some things are just well, this 579 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: is just a routine instead of a ritual. Can you 580 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: explain the difference and why it matters. 581 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 2: We had the saddest finding that we ever had was 582 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: with relationship rituals, where we get both members of a 583 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 2: couple and we ask them questions separately so they can't 584 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: hear what their partner told us. And we asked them, 585 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 2: you know, do you have anything just like we do 586 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 2: with teams actually it work. Do you have anything that's 587 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 2: special to the two of you that's unique that you 588 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 2: make sure to do every so often, every day, every week, 589 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 2: every month. Most couples say both. They both say yes, yes, 590 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: we do have something like that, and they tell us 591 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 2: what it. We clink the silverware or whatever. 592 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 3: It might be. 593 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 2: A small percent of couples they both say no, like 594 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 2: we just don't have anything like that. But there's this 595 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 2: percent of couples that are the saddest, which are we 596 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 2: ask one person do you have anything like this, and 597 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 2: they're like, oh, my god, we totally do. What we 598 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 2: do is the sunrise in the morning and then we 599 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: take a swim and it's you know what I mean. 600 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 2: They're really describing this, and then we have the other 601 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 2: person they're like, no, we don't do anything like that, 602 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 2: and that mismatch is so painful, but it shows you 603 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 2: that the same exact activity can either be a really 604 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 2: meaningful ritual or a routine. It isn't actually the actions themselves. 605 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 2: Sunrise happens no matter what. Doesn't matter if it's a 606 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 2: ritual or not for you. But some people turn it 607 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: into something more and other people kind of just see 608 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 2: it as a routine, and I think, again, that's what 609 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 2: you're bringing to it. A couple that one person said, 610 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: every weekend we go food shopping, and you know, we 611 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 2: pick the meals for the week, and we think about 612 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,479 Speaker 2: who we're going to have over for dinner and what 613 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 2: they would like to have to eat. So we're really 614 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 2: kind of building our week together with shopping. And the 615 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: other person was like, I guess we go shopping nothing 616 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: in it, you know what I mean. So you see 617 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 2: these mismatches between couples, and I think for us, it's 618 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: like try to get on the same page if you 619 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 2: possibly can. And I don't know the story specificly behind 620 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 2: that couple, but you can imagine one person's a foodie, 621 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 2: so food is like really meaningful to them, and the 622 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 2: other person doesn't care about food, So that's not a 623 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: good place to try the ritual, right, It has to 624 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 2: be things that we both value that reflects something about 625 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 2: both of us. Those can be the better places to go. 626 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: And is that often what's happening there Where someone says 627 00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: it as a ritual and someone says it as a 628 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,239 Speaker 1: retain there's just a mismatch in what matters to that 629 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: person or their values, or is it potentially a sign 630 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: of deeper relationship dissatisfaction. 631 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 2: If we ask people, do you have a ritual like this? 632 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 2: And then we ask people questions about how satisfied are 633 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 2: you with your relationship? How committed do you feel, and 634 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: how committed do you think your partner is. The presence 635 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 2: of a ritual or not is a pretty good predictor 636 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 2: of all of those things. Meaning, if you have one, 637 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 2: those things are higher, and if you don't have one, 638 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 2: those things are lower. There's a lot of information contained 639 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 2: within the fact that we have this special thing that 640 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 2: we do that only we do, and we do it 641 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 2: every day or every week or every month. They really 642 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 2: are a sign of something much deeper. In fact, the 643 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 2: funniest maybe the funniest thing we ever found was we 644 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: asked people about their relationship rituals, and then we said, 645 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: how would you feel if you broke up and your 646 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: partner reused it? And you've I mean, people are horre 647 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 2: I mean the anger. And and it's because if you say, 648 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: how would you feel if they start dating someone new? 649 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: How would you feel if they marry someone new? You 650 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: don't like that, but they're allowed. But if you say, 651 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 2: if they reused your four clinking thing like murder, I 652 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: mean you're dead to me. And again that shows it's 653 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 2: just a tiny little thing, but so much is bound 654 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 2: in them. They're so emotional and so important to us. 655 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: So in terms of the satisfaction or the improvement in 656 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: relationship satisfaction that rituals bring, do you find that that 657 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: result translates to the workplace as well in terms of 658 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: having rituals as an organization or with our team. 659 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 2: We do see with teams where we ask them, it's 660 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 2: so funny. It's the same questions, do you have something 661 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 2: special and unique and you do it? 662 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 3: Every so often? 663 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 2: The teams that tell us they do have higher job satisfaction. 664 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 2: But one of the things that we really see is 665 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 2: that they see more meaning in their work, and it 666 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 2: partly happens because they see the ritual as meaningful. In 667 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: other words, lunch isn't just lunch, it's meaningful. It means 668 00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 2: something to me. These the people on my team are 669 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 2: meaningful to me. The work that we do is meaningful 670 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 2: to me. And that's pretty consistent that we see across 671 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: these things. Now, it doesn't necessarily mean that if you 672 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 2: start a ritual tomorrow, you're now going to see your 673 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 2: work as incredibly meaningful instantly, right, That's not how they work, 674 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 2: but again very strong signal, just like with romantic relationships, 675 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 2: that the presence of one of these means all sorts 676 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 2: of things about how you feel about your work, where 677 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,239 Speaker 2: if you don't have one of them, those things can 678 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 2: be much much lower. 679 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: One of my favorite studies, probably my favorite one in 680 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,719 Speaker 1: the Ritual Effect, which i'd love to finish on, is 681 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: where you described how the task was for participants to 682 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: write about February seven and February fourteen and what happened 683 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 1: on both days. Can you talk a bit about that 684 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: research and what came out of that and importantly, what 685 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: are the implications for us in terms of using rituals 686 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 1: to be great as just savoring moments in life. 687 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 2: My colleague at HBS ting Xiong, came into my office 688 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 2: one day and she said, why do people make time capsules? 689 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 3: And I was like, I have no idea. 690 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: I mean, we take things, we put them in a 691 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 2: thing and bury it and then sometimes later we dig 692 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 2: it up, but more often somebody else is supposed. 693 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 3: To dig it up later. 694 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 2: What do we literally, what are we doing? Why are 695 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 2: we burying things in the ground. I mean, it's a 696 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 2: crazy It's like when dogs do that, We're like, well 697 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: that's weird, but we do it all the time. And 698 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 2: so she was so interested in that phenomenon, and she 699 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 2: got onto this idea of rediscovery as being something that's 700 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 2: really powerful for us and the study that The funniest one, 701 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 2: as you said, that she came up with was she 702 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 2: asked people to write about their day. And it's on 703 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 2: different days. So some people, she says, February seventh, write 704 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 2: about your day, and other people, she says, write about 705 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 2: your day on February fourteenth, which is Valentine's Day. And 706 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 2: she asks people, I'm going to take those descriptions from you, 707 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 2: and in a couple of months. Which one do you 708 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 2: think you'd be interested in reading? The Valentine's Day one 709 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 2: or the one. 710 00:32:58,120 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 3: From February seventh. 711 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 2: Most people say, oh, the Valentine's Day one, because it's 712 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: a special day and all this kind of stuff. But 713 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 2: then when time passes and you ask them again, they say, well, 714 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 2: I kind of remember Valentine's Day. I have no idea 715 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: what happened on February seventh, And that's the one that 716 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 2: they really want to read. And when they read it, 717 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 2: they say, oh my god, I completely forgot about that 718 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 2: weird guy that did the weird thing at work, you know. 719 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 2: I mean, these things come back to us that are 720 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: very mundane, and that's what's so important actually, is it's 721 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: rediscovering mundane things, and that feeling of rediscovery is a 722 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 2: completely free source of joy that we completely don't take 723 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: advantage of. We tend to focus on the big things 724 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 2: like the wedding instead of the fork clinking. I think 725 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 2: it really is this general thing where the big things 726 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 2: are important and big, but these little, everyday, daily things 727 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: sometimes can add up to something really special as well. 728 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: Mike, thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge 729 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: about rituals. Find it absolutely fascinating. It's got me thinking 730 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: really differently about the things that I do consciously and 731 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: often unconsciously in my life and life relationships and at work. 732 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: And I just wanted to say thank you for sharing 733 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: your knowledge with me today. 734 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for self funder chat. 735 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 1: I hope that this chat with Michael prompted some thinking 736 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: for you about the rituals that you have at your 737 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 1: work and also in your life. And if you're keen 738 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: to learn more about Richel's I highly recommend grabbing a 739 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: copy of Michael's latest book, The Ritual Effect. If you 740 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: like today's show, make sure you hit follow on your 741 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How 742 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the 743 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 1: Warrangery people part of the Cool and Nation are big 744 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: thank you to my editor Rowena Murray and Martin Nimmer 745 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: for doing the sound mix.