1
00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,080
Speaker 1: There's no way to be a parent without being worried,

2
00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:08,960
Speaker 1: or at least I haven't figured that out yet, but

3
00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:14,200
Speaker 1: I feel like these new extravagant worries are super imposed

4
00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:15,400
Speaker 1: on us by a culture.

5
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,960
Speaker 2: This is the Parenting in Perspective podcast. It's a Happy

6
00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,479
Speaker 2: Families podcast. Thanks so much for being a part of

7
00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,120
Speaker 2: these in depth podcast discussions.

8
00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:25,760
Speaker 3: My name's doctor Justin Colson.

9
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,440
Speaker 2: I'm a dad to six kids and the author of

10
00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,640
Speaker 2: six books about raising happy families. And on this episode

11
00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,000
Speaker 2: we're having a conversation with Lenor Scanes. She's the president

12
00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,600
Speaker 2: of Let Grow, a not for profit organization that promotes

13
00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:43,000
Speaker 2: childhood independence and resilience, and also the founder of the

14
00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,400
Speaker 2: Free Range Kids movement. Leno was also branded, quite famously

15
00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,560
Speaker 2: the World's worst mum. Let's start at the peak Lenor

16
00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,800
Speaker 2: Skanazi moment where you've got a nine year old son.

17
00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,319
Speaker 2: It's probably what was it about ten or twelve years ago?

18
00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 1: Now?

19
00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 3: Oh wow, okay, so yep.

20
00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,119
Speaker 2: So you've got a nine year old son and you say, mat,

21
00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:07,960
Speaker 2: why don't you catch the subway home?

22
00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,000
Speaker 1: No, that's not what I say. First of all, we

23
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,720
Speaker 1: don't say mate, But more importantly, our son was asking

24
00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,240
Speaker 1: us if we would take him someplace he'd never been

25
00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,600
Speaker 1: before and let him find his own way home on

26
00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:21,400
Speaker 1: the subway, which is how we get around in New

27
00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,000
Speaker 1: York City all the time. And this was not something

28
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,559
Speaker 1: that our older son had asked us when he was nine,

29
00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,160
Speaker 1: So it was something that we really had to think about,

30
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,399
Speaker 1: my husband and I before we said yes. But then

31
00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,920
Speaker 1: finally we did say, Okay, we'll do this. We'll let

32
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,280
Speaker 1: you take the subway by yourself.

33
00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,440
Speaker 2: It's kind of independent, really, isn't it. Nine year old's

34
00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,160
Speaker 2: aunt usually saying give me a challenge. Let's just let's

35
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:42,800
Speaker 2: just drop me somewhere in the city and let me

36
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:43,480
Speaker 2: try to get home.

37
00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,039
Speaker 3: So has he always been an independent minded kind of kid?

38
00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,480
Speaker 1: I would say he is. But I think that we're

39
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,600
Speaker 1: sort of right and wrong on whether kids have always

40
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,800
Speaker 1: or don't ask this kind of thing. I think that

41
00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,600
Speaker 1: a generation or two before this, it wouldn't have been

42
00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:00,640
Speaker 1: a conversation because it would have happened naturally. You know,

43
00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,960
Speaker 1: kids would have been either getting on their bikes if

44
00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,200
Speaker 1: they were in the suburbs, or riding the bus or

45
00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,080
Speaker 1: subway if they were in the city, you know, to

46
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,000
Speaker 1: get to a music lesson to get to school, to

47
00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,000
Speaker 1: get to grandma's house, to get to you know, an

48
00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 1: empty lot and start a baseball game and hang out

49
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,160
Speaker 1: there all day. And so even the fact that he

50
00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,760
Speaker 1: had to ask as opposed to this just being a

51
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,800
Speaker 1: normal thing that kids just do on their own, is

52
00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,360
Speaker 1: indicative of it being you know, a more sort of

53
00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,640
Speaker 1: mother may I kind of era than it was before. So, yeah,

54
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,720
Speaker 1: he was asking, and that was unusual, but I don't

55
00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,079
Speaker 1: think his independence would have been unusual in any other generation.

56
00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,320
Speaker 2: When you had the conversation with your husband and then

57
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,720
Speaker 2: decided that we're comfortable with this, we'll give it a go.

58
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,239
Speaker 2: We'll take you into the city and we'll go home,

59
00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:46,760
Speaker 2: and then we'll see you at home in a couple

60
00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 2: of hours.

61
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:47,679
Speaker 3: Hopefully.

62
00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,320
Speaker 1: What we did that's a bigger you're making it into

63
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 1: a bigger deal because we were in the city, right

64
00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:55,400
Speaker 1: We lived in Manhattan at the time, and we were

65
00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,760
Speaker 1: sending him. You know, we just took the subway up

66
00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,959
Speaker 1: to this beautiful, fancied store, which is why it was

67
00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,600
Speaker 1: someplace he had never been before. We don't usually shot there.

68
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,359
Speaker 1: And then all he had to do was come back

69
00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,880
Speaker 1: down on the subway about four or five steps, and

70
00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,560
Speaker 1: then we don't live right near there, so he had

71
00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,359
Speaker 1: to take another little bus across town. All together, it

72
00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:16,800
Speaker 1: might have taken an hour if that.

73
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,320
Speaker 2: When you went through this conversation and actually got to

74
00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,079
Speaker 2: the point where you're like, okay, let's do this, what

75
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:23,359
Speaker 2: reservations did you have?

76
00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,120
Speaker 3: At what point were you thinking? Are we crazy? Is

77
00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,760
Speaker 3: this normal? A generation to go it would have been fine,

78
00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,079
Speaker 3: but it's a different world. Now what are we thinking?

79
00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,520
Speaker 3: What sort of concerns did you have beforehand?

80
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,240
Speaker 1: We had the concern that we wanted to make sure

81
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,080
Speaker 1: that he knew what he was doing. And so, even

82
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 1: though we are on the subways all the time now,

83
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,920
Speaker 1: some kids love certain things, like there are kids who

84
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,280
Speaker 1: love cars or dolls or whatever. He loved the subway loves.

85
00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,680
Speaker 1: You know, we'd love public transportation, but we wanted to

86
00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,600
Speaker 1: make sure he understood that. You know that you're reading

87
00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,400
Speaker 1: the map and the green line, which is the line

88
00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,120
Speaker 1: that he was going to have to take. That's the

89
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,520
Speaker 1: four or five and six train. For anybody who's been

90
00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,760
Speaker 1: to New York City, that that was the train you

91
00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,760
Speaker 1: would have to take, and know this is the stock

92
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:02,680
Speaker 1: you get off on. And then of course we're always

93
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 1: on that extremely slow bus, so he knew that he

94
00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,000
Speaker 1: would have to wait for the bus at the bus stop.

95
00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,960
Speaker 1: I don't recall telling him this that time, but I've

96
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,040
Speaker 1: always told my kids that you can talk to strangers,

97
00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,760
Speaker 1: you can't go off with strangers. So if you need

98
00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,600
Speaker 1: help from somebody, certainly you can ask a question of somebody,

99
00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,240
Speaker 1: but you can't get into somebody's car. You can't go

100
00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,720
Speaker 1: off with somebody. And other than that, we prepared him

101
00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,520
Speaker 1: with a couple of things. We gave him a subway

102
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,200
Speaker 1: map twenty dollars just in case he needed something went

103
00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:31,320
Speaker 1: really terribly wrong and needed to take a cab or

104
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,960
Speaker 1: something quarters because even twelve years ago there were still

105
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 1: some payphones in the subway, and and a metro card,

106
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,600
Speaker 1: which is the card that you slide through the entryway

107
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,360
Speaker 1: to get into the trains to pay your fare. And

108
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,240
Speaker 1: so I'd say that we didn't think we were crazy

109
00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,159
Speaker 1: because we were preparing him, and because it wasn't something

110
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,159
Speaker 1: that he was saying, no, Mom, I don't want to

111
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,200
Speaker 1: do this. This was his idea and something that we

112
00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,240
Speaker 1: had all discussed and decided he was ready for. You know,

113
00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,360
Speaker 1: I'm a reporter by trade. I spent years and years

114
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,480
Speaker 1: at the New York Daily News, which is if you've

115
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,240
Speaker 1: seen the Superman movies, it's actually they call it the

116
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,840
Speaker 1: Daily Planet, but they shoot they shoot the movies at

117
00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:13,560
Speaker 1: the Daily News, which is where I worked, And so

118
00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,360
Speaker 1: as a tabloid reporter, I was steeped in the city.

119
00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,480
Speaker 1: You know, I went everywhere on stories hither and yon,

120
00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,720
Speaker 1: and I had a very i'd say realistic view of

121
00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,719
Speaker 1: the city based on being very much part of it.

122
00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,800
Speaker 1: And that's very different from I think the way the

123
00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,360
Speaker 1: story obviously resonated around the world because if you watch,

124
00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,680
Speaker 1: you know, TV shows, especially Law and Order Geez set

125
00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,200
Speaker 1: in New York City, you think there's a murder every second,

126
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,760
Speaker 1: and there are always children, and they're always raped beforehand,

127
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,359
Speaker 1: and they're always cut into pieces. And in fact, the

128
00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,360
Speaker 1: crime rate, the crime rate right now is crazy because

129
00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,800
Speaker 1: of COVID, but for since the nineties, the crime rate

130
00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:57,000
Speaker 1: has been going down, down, down, down, down. So given

131
00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,839
Speaker 1: all that, I didn't think we were crazy. And in fact,

132
00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,000
Speaker 1: there are a lot of things that I wouldn't let

133
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,599
Speaker 1: my nine year old do, and that I'm sorry that

134
00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,320
Speaker 1: my twenty two year old does. I absolutely am terrified

135
00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,320
Speaker 1: of cars, but I guess he has to drive, but

136
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,360
Speaker 1: taking the subway did'n? I strike me is crazy.

137
00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,320
Speaker 2: Every now and again, I'll send my kids off to

138
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,760
Speaker 2: play in the park, or I'll tell them to go

139
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:16,320
Speaker 2: for a walk around the block, or jump on their

140
00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 2: bikes and ride to school, or whatever it might be,

141
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,680
Speaker 2: And as they leave the driveway, my heart goes with them,

142
00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,240
Speaker 2: and I think to myself, I know what the crime

143
00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:28,600
Speaker 2: statistics are. Loosely, I know that I live in a

144
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,120
Speaker 2: pretty safe area. I know all of these things, but

145
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,599
Speaker 2: there's this part of me that just seizes up and thinks,

146
00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,840
Speaker 2: what have you just done? You've sent the ten year

147
00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:37,840
Speaker 2: old on a bike ride with a twelve year old.

148
00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:38,599
Speaker 2: What's going to happen?

149
00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:38,839
Speaker 1: Now?

150
00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,839
Speaker 2: It's a challenging thing. And then you know, maybe the

151
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,240
Speaker 2: six year old says, can I go too? And I

152
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,080
Speaker 2: think to myself, well, can I send a six year

153
00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:48,280
Speaker 2: old in the care of a ten and a twelve

154
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:48,640
Speaker 2: year old?

155
00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,960
Speaker 3: And at this point the answer is no, because she's six.

156
00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,880
Speaker 2: But it's a really, really, really big challenge to kind

157
00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,040
Speaker 2: of encounter and work through these things, even when you

158
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,479
Speaker 2: rationally that it should be just fun.

159
00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,520
Speaker 1: I have to say the last this weekend, my kids

160
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,640
Speaker 1: were visiting me and they're now twenty two and twenty four,

161
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,600
Speaker 1: and when they were driving home together, I was like,

162
00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 1: both my kids are in the car together. Oh no,

163
00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,600
Speaker 1: oh no, which is just normal. But here's what we're

164
00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:19,200
Speaker 1: talking about. You're saying, is it rational or irrational to

165
00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,440
Speaker 1: worry this way, to calculate the odds as we're doing.

166
00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,040
Speaker 1: I'd say that there's no way to be a parent

167
00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,080
Speaker 1: without being worried, or at least I haven't figured that

168
00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,040
Speaker 1: out yet. But what I think is different from our

169
00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,640
Speaker 1: about our generation. I'm actually I'm older than yous, so

170
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,680
Speaker 1: about your generation, and then our parents are grandparents or

171
00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:45,760
Speaker 1: anybody before that, is that when my mom let me

172
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,960
Speaker 1: walk to school, and it was age five, and she

173
00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:49,640
Speaker 1: didn't do it because she was a free range mom

174
00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,040
Speaker 1: or a crazy person. She was doing it because everybody

175
00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,240
Speaker 1: let their kids walk to school at age five in

176
00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,480
Speaker 1: the suburb where I was growing up outside of Chicago.

177
00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,720
Speaker 1: She was a nervous mom. You know, she was a

178
00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,240
Speaker 1: her mom. But back then you let kids do that,

179
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,080
Speaker 1: and when you let the children go, you weren't sittingether

180
00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,720
Speaker 1: going Oh my god, I hope she makes it. It's

181
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,000
Speaker 1: gonna be about a six minute walk, and she's only five,

182
00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,000
Speaker 1: and she's so small, and the world is such a

183
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:14,920
Speaker 1: terrible place, and if anything terable happened to her, I

184
00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:16,760
Speaker 1: couldn't live with myself. Forget it. I'm gonna go get

185
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,880
Speaker 1: her and drive her myself. And that simply wasn't the

186
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 1: catechism back then. You didn't have to go through what

187
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 1: about you know? And then name you know? What about

188
00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,400
Speaker 1: you know? Elizabeth Smart? What about you know? Maddie McCann.

189
00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,240
Speaker 1: You weren't thinking that a normal mom, a normal good mom,

190
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,400
Speaker 1: should be thinking about the murder of their child every

191
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,800
Speaker 1: time the child was out of their sight, or the

192
00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,560
Speaker 1: death on the bike, on the walk on you know.

193
00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:48,200
Speaker 1: So that is new, and it feels normal because it

194
00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 1: is normal to worry. But I feel like these new

195
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,400
Speaker 1: extravagant worries are super imposed on us by a culture

196
00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,719
Speaker 1: that I've seen up close, in part because of the

197
00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,679
Speaker 1: question that was asked of me. You know, I let

198
00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,559
Speaker 1: my son ride the subway. Okay, Most interviewers, at the

199
00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,439
Speaker 1: very beginning, and I'd say the very beginning for the

200
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,440
Speaker 1: first four years, I would say, were saying, Okay, you know,

201
00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,800
Speaker 1: he had a good time. You're proud, he's elated, he

202
00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,400
Speaker 1: feels grown up. Great, that's all great, But what if

203
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,280
Speaker 1: he hadn't come home? Framing it in the negative, I

204
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,120
Speaker 1: never had a good answer. How would I have felt?

205
00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,160
Speaker 1: Funny you should ask I'd feel great because I don't

206
00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:27,800
Speaker 1: have to feed another kid. I mean, there was like

207
00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,600
Speaker 1: no normal answer that you could give to that question

208
00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 1: other than this is how I'd feel. And in a way,

209
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,679
Speaker 1: this is what they were trying to make me feel.

210
00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,440
Speaker 1: They were trying to take a positive story and turn

211
00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,240
Speaker 1: it back into the story that television loves, which is

212
00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,199
Speaker 1: he never came home. So the fact that he did

213
00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,760
Speaker 1: come home, Okay, let's ignore that and think about how

214
00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,520
Speaker 1: terrible a mom she would have been if that had happened.

215
00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,199
Speaker 1: And why wasn't she thinking that way? You're always supposed

216
00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 1: to be thinking in this extremely dark, dystoped be in

217
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,640
Speaker 1: way about your kid if they're beyond your sight. And

218
00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,160
Speaker 1: that's what's new. And I feel like it's superimposed by

219
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,760
Speaker 1: questions like that. When an interviewer would say, well, how

220
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:11,560
Speaker 1: would you have felt, it's like, you know how it feel.

221
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,000
Speaker 1: I would feel lower than hell. Okay, but why are

222
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,680
Speaker 1: we talking about it? Why? You know, why can't we

223
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,680
Speaker 1: celebrate when a kid does something normal that I'd say,

224
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,600
Speaker 1: you know, most nine year olds could do if if

225
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,160
Speaker 1: they felt like it. Worry is normal, but us worrying

226
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,760
Speaker 1: when the kid goes around the block worrying I would say,

227
00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,720
Speaker 1: even if a six year old is with a ten

228
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,200
Speaker 1: and a twelve year old who love him or her

229
00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,520
Speaker 1: and care about them, that's new.

230
00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,439
Speaker 2: What I'm interested in is this, You've been doing some

231
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,680
Speaker 2: work with let grow dot org with one of the

232
00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,000
Speaker 2: best thinkers in the world of psychology, Jonathan Height.

233
00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,080
Speaker 1: And two of the best thinkers in the world of psychology,

234
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,400
Speaker 1: Jonathan Height, and also Peter Gray, Doctor Peter Gray.

235
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:55,480
Speaker 3: Now you're just showing off genius.

236
00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:57,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well, I just want to talk about

237
00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,720
Speaker 2: John at the moment because his research is what has

238
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:01,800
Speaker 2: fast the name of the most because Peter really focuses

239
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,040
Speaker 2: on the play aspect of life, and John has always

240
00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,959
Speaker 2: focused so much more on the I guess, on the social.

241
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,000
Speaker 3: Psychology and the data and trends.

242
00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,240
Speaker 2: And what I'm really curious about is what as you've

243
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,679
Speaker 2: worked as a trio, what have you discovered in the data?

244
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,040
Speaker 2: What's the data showing in terms of this, Well, is

245
00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,880
Speaker 2: there a trend or are we just at peak twenty

246
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,080
Speaker 2: twenty and everybody's you know, getting so excited about the

247
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,000
Speaker 2: outliers the unusual stories.

248
00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,120
Speaker 1: First of all, I do think there's something I'm happy

249
00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,920
Speaker 1: you mentioned the outliers and the unusual stories because I

250
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,880
Speaker 1: feel like they are driving so much of our regular

251
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:44,360
Speaker 1: life based on the saddest, worst, most anomalous, unpredictable stories,

252
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,680
Speaker 1: that if there was some way we could get rid

253
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,960
Speaker 1: of the story of one horrible accident or one horrible

254
00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,719
Speaker 1: crime or one horrible shooting, I think we would all

255
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,360
Speaker 1: be at a much better set point rather than using

256
00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,600
Speaker 1: those terrible, outlying stories as the norm from which we

257
00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 1: decide how we should live our lives. But the thing

258
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,240
Speaker 1: that so John Jonathan Heyde is a big fan of

259
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,480
Speaker 1: free range kids, and he's raising his free range kids,

260
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,680
Speaker 1: and I feel great about that. But he came to

261
00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,400
Speaker 1: me a couple of years ago, and his hypothesis was

262
00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:24,400
Speaker 1: that young adults, and by young adults remains college age

263
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,800
Speaker 1: and a little bit beyond, we're becoming fragile. And as

264
00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,400
Speaker 1: it turns out, doctor Peter Gray had noticed this too.

265
00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:34,679
Speaker 1: That you know, I think it's great when kids go

266
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,480
Speaker 1: for you know, the psychological services they need and believe me.

267
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,400
Speaker 1: I live in New York, I'm a Jew, I'm a woman.

268
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,160
Speaker 1: I've been through as much therapy as anybody could possibly

269
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,400
Speaker 1: have because of these demographics. So I love therapy. However,

270
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,000
Speaker 1: it seems like at this point on the college campuses,

271
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,360
Speaker 1: and I'm talking about before COVID, because COVID is just

272
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,480
Speaker 1: so weird, that the colleges could not keep up with

273
00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,559
Speaker 1: the number of kids who where seeking therapy and who

274
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,200
Speaker 1: seemed to be falling apart and not falling apart after

275
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,959
Speaker 1: a breakup with a girlfriend or a boyfriend or something

276
00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,440
Speaker 1: very large, but often after a bee like not a

277
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 1: bee like a this B like a B minus, or

278
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,960
Speaker 1: after an argument with the roommate, after a mouse in

279
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:25,360
Speaker 1: the dorm, and John and Peter were thinking, where is

280
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,079
Speaker 1: this fragility coming from? Why do the kids think they

281
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,800
Speaker 1: need to talk to either counselor or they have to

282
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,440
Speaker 1: talk to their dean because they're so worried about their grades,

283
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,840
Speaker 1: or they're calling their parents as they walk across the

284
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,360
Speaker 1: campus because they feel afraid to walk without talking to

285
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,679
Speaker 1: somebody while they're crossing the campus. This seemed new, and

286
00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,679
Speaker 1: it seems sad. You know here it is this, this

287
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,240
Speaker 1: blossoming time of your life. And yet a lot of

288
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,360
Speaker 1: kids were very, very anxious and depressed. And if you're

289
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,640
Speaker 1: asking about the data, the data are that anxiety and

290
00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,199
Speaker 1: depression among young people has been going up for the

291
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:04,120
Speaker 1: last several decades. And I talked about it, but so suicide.

292
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,240
Speaker 1: So it's not just you know, choosing to call more

293
00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,840
Speaker 1: things depressed or kids saying I'm depressed, because there's a

294
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,520
Speaker 1: certain social cachet to it. It really does seem to

295
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,720
Speaker 1: be weighing on the kids. And so John came to

296
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,080
Speaker 1: me and said, I think this is starting younger. You

297
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,480
Speaker 1: seem to be the only person. I'm not the only

298
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,200
Speaker 1: person who is trying to fight the over protection that

299
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:32,480
Speaker 1: seems to be undermining kids. And let's work together and

300
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,520
Speaker 1: start a nonprofit that tries to overthrow the overprotection that

301
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,040
Speaker 1: is not helping kids, it's hurting kids. And so I said, no,

302
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,760
Speaker 1: I didn't want to start a nonprofit. I'm a journalist

303
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 1: by trade. I like just being a lone wolf on

304
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 1: my free range track. But a couple of years later

305
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,000
Speaker 1: he persuaded me. And also, by then, I've found somebody

306
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,680
Speaker 1: who actually knows about how to start a business. And

307
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,520
Speaker 1: so together the three of us plus Daniel Struckman, who

308
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,560
Speaker 1: used to be the chairman of Fire, which fights for

309
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,920
Speaker 1: free speech on campus, also worrying that there was a

310
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:08,960
Speaker 1: trend on campus where kids were saying that if somebody

311
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:11,160
Speaker 1: came to speak whom they didn't like or whom they

312
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 1: disagreed with, rather than saying why did they invite this jerk,

313
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,080
Speaker 1: or rather than reading up on that person's work and

314
00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,080
Speaker 1: then coming and raising your hand at you know, on

315
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,560
Speaker 1: the Q and a time and you know, offering a

316
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,880
Speaker 1: piercing critique and a question to boot, instead they were saying,

317
00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,800
Speaker 1: don't let them come on campus. They I'm not safe

318
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,360
Speaker 1: if this speaker is coming to campus. And we're not

319
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,280
Speaker 1: talking about a rabble rousing, you know, machete wielding speaker.

320
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,400
Speaker 1: We're talking about a speaker with a difference of opinion

321
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:42,520
Speaker 1: or often in a different political party. And so Daniel

322
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,920
Speaker 1: was worried that free speech was going to die because

323
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,680
Speaker 1: if it seems like it's actually hurting somebody, actually physically

324
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:57,200
Speaker 1: harming someone, how could you fight for it? How can

325
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,040
Speaker 1: a president of a college say no, we're going to

326
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,000
Speaker 1: have that person comes anyway? If the students feel like

327
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,400
Speaker 1: that is literally putting them in danger. So there's this

328
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,920
Speaker 1: idea of the sort of through line through all this

329
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:14,240
Speaker 1: is seeing a normal situation that everybody has dealt with

330
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,080
Speaker 1: in the past, whether it's a speaker you don't like

331
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,280
Speaker 1: or a walk to get your cricket magazine, and instead

332
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,280
Speaker 1: of seeing it as just something that either is okay

333
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,480
Speaker 1: or maybe even good, it was all seen through the

334
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,160
Speaker 1: lens of risk and danger. And so we've started let

335
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:34,200
Speaker 1: Grow with the desire to start so young with kids,

336
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 1: getting them used to being part of the world, being challenged,

337
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,640
Speaker 1: standing up for themselves, having fun, being curious, following their interests,

338
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,240
Speaker 1: organizing a game without some adult deciding whether you're in

339
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,640
Speaker 1: or out and who's on what team, just doing some

340
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,640
Speaker 1: of these age old things that seem to be since

341
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,320
Speaker 1: time immemorial part of childhood, giving them back to children

342
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 1: and making parents feel that it's a good idea, that

343
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,840
Speaker 1: it's not crazy dangerous and that actually you're doing something

344
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,960
Speaker 1: that you know. Not only does let role approve a bit,

345
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,200
Speaker 1: but these extremely vanted social psychologists and other psych moral

346
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,200
Speaker 1: psychologists think is good for your kids. So we wanted

347
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,720
Speaker 1: to renormalize the idea of giving kids back some independence.

348
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,000
Speaker 2: There are so many things that I want to pull

349
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:21,879
Speaker 2: out of there, and time is going to get the

350
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,399
Speaker 2: better of us because there's still so much that I

351
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 2: want to talk to you about. Maybe I've just made

352
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,560
Speaker 2: three notes as I've listened to everything that you've said,

353
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:30,639
Speaker 2: and I'm going to ignore the rest of it, not

354
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,760
Speaker 2: because it's not brilliant to discuss, but simply because time

355
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:36,480
Speaker 2: wine allows us to discuss.

356
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:36,679
Speaker 3: All of that.

357
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,240
Speaker 2: The first thing, first thing that I want to highlight

358
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,960
Speaker 2: is something that you prompted in my memory as you

359
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,560
Speaker 2: talk about the trends and the data. I've been looking

360
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,720
Speaker 2: into perfectionism recently, and my sense, yeah, my sense is

361
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,480
Speaker 2: that perfectionism is following the same trend and is probably

362
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,560
Speaker 2: linked here. The idea with perfectionism is that I have

363
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 2: I either expect a lot of myself or I feel

364
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,240
Speaker 2: like everybody else expects a lot of me. And it

365
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:07,200
Speaker 2: seems that the most complex and debilitating form of perfectionism.

366
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:08,720
Speaker 2: There is another form as well, by the way, and

367
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,879
Speaker 2: that's when you expect perfection of those outside you. So

368
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:12,480
Speaker 2: there are three forms of it, but the one that

369
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,159
Speaker 2: seems to be most debilitating is the one where we

370
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,760
Speaker 2: have an expectation that everybody around us expects so much

371
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:21,320
Speaker 2: of us and.

372
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:22,800
Speaker 3: We can't possibly live up to it.

373
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,800
Speaker 2: And what I'm hearing is, as I think about John

374
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 2: and Greg Luknof's book The Coddling of the American Mind,

375
00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,240
Speaker 2: and I think about the things that you've just talked about,

376
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,160
Speaker 2: is there seems to be this desire on the part

377
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 2: of parents to create a perfect world for their children,

378
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,960
Speaker 2: a world where their children don't have to take risks

379
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,199
Speaker 2: and always do feel safe, because if we can create

380
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,720
Speaker 2: that instagram worthy perfect world, and I know that, I

381
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,280
Speaker 2: guess I'm relying on tropes and stereotypes a little bit

382
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,959
Speaker 2: as I summarize a whole lot of things here. Parents

383
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,120
Speaker 2: feel like they can control everything to give their kids

384
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,960
Speaker 2: the best outcomes, and aligned with that, the data doesn't

385
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:05,520
Speaker 2: just showed the points that you've made around safetyism, I guess,

386
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,200
Speaker 2: but the daughter also shows that what we would call

387
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:13,639
Speaker 2: autonomy supportive parenting, That is parenting along the lines of

388
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,439
Speaker 2: what you've described with your son when he caught that

389
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,199
Speaker 2: subway train as a nine year old. That is, you

390
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 2: sit down and you put the scaffolding in, you do

391
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:21,920
Speaker 2: the pre work, you make sure that they're going to

392
00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:22,400
Speaker 2: be okay.

393
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,080
Speaker 3: And say all right, it's your life. Off you go.

394
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,800
Speaker 3: I'm with you. That's on the decline now I just have.

395
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,240
Speaker 1: To jump in. There's so much to say. First of all,

396
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,480
Speaker 1: you can never say you're going to be fine, because

397
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,119
Speaker 1: that's that is the idea of control. I mean, the

398
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,960
Speaker 1: illusion that we can control for every variable.

399
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,919
Speaker 3: It leads to bureaucracy, great great pickup. Yes, yes, And.

400
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,880
Speaker 1: I think it leads to extreme nervousness on the part

401
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 1: of parents because there's no there's no acknowledgment that like,

402
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 1: we can't control everything. We aren't. God, you know, we

403
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:55,880
Speaker 1: think we are. We have the phones, we can track them,

404
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 1: we can see who they texted, we can you know,

405
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 1: there's cameras everywhere. But in fact we're not in complete control.

406
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 1: And you know, if you think you are, you will

407
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,399
Speaker 1: never be able to let go at all because you

408
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,840
Speaker 1: will think if anything bad happens, there will be no grace.

409
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,919
Speaker 3: So it's really no, it's more it's more about not

410
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:13,680
Speaker 3: saying you'll be fine.

411
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,800
Speaker 2: It's more about saying I feel like we've done everything

412
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 2: we can to help you to have a good experience.

413
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:18,360
Speaker 3: I hope you'll be fine.

414
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,639
Speaker 2: But if you won't we'll do what we need to,

415
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 2: or you'll do what you need to to make it

416
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 2: fun eventually.

417
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:26,120
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, part of it is, yes, trusting

418
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,679
Speaker 1: that your kid can roll with some punches. Yeah, I

419
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,040
Speaker 1: mean part of it is that we're told that the

420
00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,240
Speaker 1: kids are as fragile, so we treat them as gradual

421
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:33,920
Speaker 1: and it becomes this sort of princess and the p

422
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,199
Speaker 1: you know exercise where we keep making things safer and

423
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,440
Speaker 1: better until they expect too much more. But back to perfectionism,

424
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,160
Speaker 1: you know you're mentioning. It makes me want to actually

425
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 1: research it more because I think it is like a

426
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: third almost disability that we are imposing upon kids. And

427
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 1: I say this because there's this one seventh grade teacher

428
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 1: I just love who did the Lecro project, which is

429
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,359
Speaker 1: sending kids home with the homework assignment. You must do

430
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 1: something on your own without your parents that you haven't

431
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 1: done before. You know, walk the dog, make dinner, you know,

432
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,640
Speaker 1: run an errand babysit whatever. She was talking about. One

433
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,679
Speaker 1: of the reasons she decided to do the project with

434
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 1: her class is that she'd never seen a group of

435
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,399
Speaker 1: kids and this is a year ago. As nervous as

436
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,360
Speaker 1: the seventh grader she had, and one of the one

437
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 1: of the sort of ways she explained to me what

438
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 1: was going on is she'll say, I'll say, okay, take

439
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,080
Speaker 1: out your paper, and you know, put your name on it.

440
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: We're going to have a quiz. And they would be like,

441
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 1: we put our name in the right hand side or

442
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 1: the left hand side, and it's like the left.

443
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 3: Hand side panel, pincil.

444
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, but just the last name, you know, do you

445
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 1: need the date on it? And and to me that

446
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 1: that bespeaks perfectionism or a fear, and and fear is

447
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 1: at the bottom of it. It's like if I do

448
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 1: one thing wrong, if I get a bad grade, if

449
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 1: I disappoint the teacher, if I look stupid. The thing

450
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,680
Speaker 1: that she kept saying that the kids saying to her

451
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 1: is I don't want to get out of my comfort zone.

452
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 1: And the comfort zone is extremely narrow, to the point

453
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: where she said that one kid came to her class

454
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: it was actually an extra class at lunchtime, a little

455
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 1: late kid didn't have time to get her lunch. So

456
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 1: the teacher said, okay, just go get your lunch, and

457
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,200
Speaker 1: you know, well, you know, when you come back, you'll

458
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,400
Speaker 1: just jump right in and the kid said, by myself.

459
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 1: And so that struck me as like, you've developed so

460
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 1: little self confidence that you don't think you can handle anything,

461
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: whether it's you know, what if you put your name

462
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: on the paper wrong, what if you're walking by yourself

463
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 1: to the cafeteria and it's scary or lonely. This is

464
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 1: your school, you're seventh grader, you're thirteen years old. You know,

465
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 1: in some countries you'd be goooned into the army by then,

466
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 1: which I also think is a bad idea, but to

467
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 1: raise these kids, And so then she had them write

468
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: down what they would like to do for their you

469
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 1: know what was their thing that they were hesitant to

470
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,959
Speaker 1: do but they wanted to do for their Let Grow project.

471
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,359
Speaker 1: And the answers were, I want to walk my dog,

472
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: but what if he can off the leash. I want

473
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: to go and run an errand, but the store is

474
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: filled with strangers. I want to use a knife, but

475
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: I'm afraid of cutting off my fingers. So everything was

476
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: so terrifying to them, the simplest things, and parents have

477
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,120
Speaker 1: kept them from walking to school because it might be dangerous,

478
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 1: and don't use the knife, you might hurt yourself, and

479
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,879
Speaker 1: I'll run the errand with you. You don't know this. You know,

480
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: you don't know where the stuff is in the store.

481
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: You've never made change for yourself. You don't know how

482
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: to talk to the cashier. Well, of course they don't

483
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: know how to do anything if you've done them for

484
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 1: them the whole time, and you've created the very ineptitude

485
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 1: that you're worried about them having, and in the absence

486
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 1: of doing anything on your own and succeeding, in the

487
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: absence of taking that long walk and getting the cricket

488
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,360
Speaker 1: magazine because you say for it, you walk to it.

489
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: It was too far and you did it anyway without

490
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: that Jenga piece. Kids are falling apart. And all I'm

491
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: saying is, let's remember that there's no such thing as

492
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: I want a zero risk child hood for my kid.

493
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: It's like, when you're taking away all that risk, you're

494
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: raising the risk of depression, anxiety, perfectionism, despair because all

495
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: you've raised is a person who looks like a person,

496
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: but there's nothing inside. It hasn't been knitted together by life.

497
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 1: You have to take a step back for your kids

498
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,360
Speaker 1: to step up. That's it.

499
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: I love your passion and I'm thinking so many again,

500
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: so many thoughts. Let me uh, let me, let me

501
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,120
Speaker 2: go back a quick step. You know why kids love

502
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 2: kids books because they're always about the kids.

503
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: The parents are vanished. Where are the parents?

504
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: The kids are living their lives and they're they're exploring

505
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 2: the woods, or they're climbing the trees.

506
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 3: They're having their adventures and the.

507
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: And the yes, there's so much.

508
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 2: Joy to be had when the parents un around. I've

509
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 2: heard you talk about the difference between risk and.

510
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: Risky, right, risk is inherent and everything. I mean, boy,

511
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: I don't watch them, but a friend who watches the

512
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: home improvement shows, you know, I wish I had a

513
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: better looking house. Obviously, I don't watch home improvement show

514
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,439
Speaker 1: look at this place, But those who do tell me

515
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: that they keep hearing a couple of things, parents that

516
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: are saying that they that seems like it's a normal desire.

517
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 1: Right now, there's parents saying, I don't want any walls

518
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: in the you know, I want to be able to

519
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: have a clear sight line to my kids at all times.

520
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: It's like those poor kids, you know, sometimes you just

521
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: want to get away from your mom and sneak the

522
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: comic book you know.

523
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 3: Oh, it's like social media, right.

524
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: The kids have discovered that parents are always watching what

525
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 2: they're doing because social.

526
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 3: Media is risky.

527
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 2: And let's face it, there is risk in anything that

528
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: happens on laine everything, but the kids.

529
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: There's also risk in not doing it and being the

530
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: only one who doesn't have a you know, a way

531
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 1: of communicating and planning. But I wanted to say the

532
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: idea of risk and risky, and so so the parents

533
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: want to get rid of the site, you know, any

534
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: any blacks to sitelines and then a lot of times

535
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 1: and I haven't seen these, so this is heresay. They

536
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: don't want a house with stairs. And what's interesting about

537
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: that is that of course they're afraid of their kids

538
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: falling down the stairs. How do you learn not to

539
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: fall down the stairs? You gotta climb some stairs. Stairs

540
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 1: are not like a weird part of life that you

541
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: could avoid, like oysters, you know, or or esque argo

542
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: or something you knowes like why I'm only thinking about

543
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 1: shelled fish, I don't know. But the point is that stairs,

544
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: like the actual contours of the earth are sort of

545
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 1: like stairs. There are hills, there are mountains, there are valleys,

546
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: there are streams, there are rocks, there are trees. The

547
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: idea that you should have a completely flat, no stairs,

548
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 1: no you know, blockades between you and the child, eff

549
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 1: is like setting a prison. I mean, you're trying to

550
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: create a panopticon where you see the child all the time,

551
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: you can be in control all the time, and parents

552
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: are unashamedly asking for that on these home improvement shows,

553
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 1: which I feel is why we feel so scared as parents.

554
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: If this is the norm, to the point where it's

555
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: like houses are being built to accommodate these parents, then

556
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: you start feeling like it is normal to worry about

557
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: your kid walking up and down the stairs, walking out

558
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: the door, ever, riding a bike, doing anything on their own.

559
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: And that just keeps reinforcing the idea that you should

560
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: be you know, always seeing, all knowing and hovering, which

561
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 1: then leads to us doing that and leads to the

562
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: things we were talking about before, the depression of the anxiety.

563
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: So there's no no risk, because if you're taking out

564
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: the risk of climbing the stairs, you're instilling the risk

565
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 1: of like stairs ah, which you don't want either.

566
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: There's a difference though, between excepting that there is risk

567
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 2: and heron in law and actively pursuing risky things.

568
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, risky things. Yuck, franky. You know, I'm just as

569
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: I mean, I believe in Look, put on your seat belt.

570
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: Seat belt does not change your experience at all. Right,

571
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: You're still in the car going where you're going, getting

572
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: there at the exact same time. Put on a helmet,

573
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 1: you still get to ride your bike. Put on a

574
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 1: mouth guard, you'll keep all your teeth while you're playing soccer, rugby, football, whatever.

575
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: But those are risks that can be mitigated. And I'd

576
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 1: say that certainly in the case of a car, they're

577
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: real risks. The number one way kids die is as

578
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: car passengers. But to rewrite using a sharp knife as

579
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: a risk, because there is a teeny tiny risk, not

580
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: even a teeny tiny risk, there's a somewhat risk that

581
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 1: you might nick yourself. But I keep wanting to do

582
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: a video and nobody wants to do this with me

583
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: where it shows like you're worried about your kids chopping

584
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: off their finger. Let's see how much it takes. And

585
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: I'm not willing to do this video, but I think

586
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: it would take a lot of chopping, you know, with

587
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: a serrated knife that you're using for your cucumbers to

588
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: actually chop off that finger, and so to call that

589
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: risky when it's simply a risk. And in the meantime,

590
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: your kids are getting adept at making a meal, being confident,

591
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: being trusted, being part of the economy of the house

592
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: as opposed to just the king. I think that you

593
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: can't say that that's only a risk. It is a

594
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: risk in not letting your kid use a knife.

595
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 2: In a recent podcast, and by the way, so let

596
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: grow has You've got a brand new podcast that you've

597
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 2: been doing and I'm I'm already quote up on it.

598
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 3: The name of the podcast is Supervision Not Requiring.

599
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 2: Love this And in one of your more recent episodes,

600
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 2: you said, and I quote, feed doesn't prevent this, but.

601
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: Life, Yeah, it prevents life. Yeah. And I wish I

602
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: could take credit for it, but it's probably from a

603
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: fortune cookie or something. I mean, I heard it elsewhere.

604
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: But it's so true. I Mean, sometimes it feels like

605
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: worrying is a substitute for doing or for anything else.

606
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I'm doing something great, I'm worried, and

607
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: believe me, I'm a worrier. So I know that that's

608
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: a major time suck. And also a joy suck, But

609
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: worrying doesn't change things. Yeah, you're gonna if you're gonna

610
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: worry about your kids and you are, teach them the

611
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: things that we've just been talking about. Teach them across

612
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: the streets safely. Teach them that they can talk to strangers,

613
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: they can't go walk with strangers. Teach them never to

614
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: get into anybody's car. Teach them to look both ways,

615
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: actually three times when you're the corner's supposed to look left, right,

616
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: left again. I don't remember why, but I learned it

617
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: in kindergarten and then I just read it again recently,

618
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: so it must be true. You know, Teach them the

619
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 1: things that parents have always taught their kids about life.

620
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: But until recently, it wasn't that we assumed that we

621
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: were going to be with them every second. And then

622
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: the way they don't even have to learn anything because

623
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: we're always going to be with them or watching them,

624
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: and that's it. Assume that it's safer for your kids

625
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: to gain some independence and to have some you know,

626
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: not horrible experiences, but a couple of you know, things

627
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: that were thwarted, some disappointments, some frustration. My kid got

628
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: a trophy, for eighth place in bowling out of nine leagues.

629
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: I'm insulted on his behalf. Are you thinking that he

630
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: can't tell that you know, he's second to last out

631
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,959
Speaker 1: of nine teams. I mean he can handle, he can

632
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: handle the frustration, and if he wants to get good

633
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: at bowling, well now he knows he's got a long

634
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: way to go, so he can either practice or accept

635
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: the fact. But the idea of attending like there's there

636
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: should be no frustration ever, and you still got a trophy,

637
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: that's an insult to the human spirit.

638
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: I have a couple of questions before I get to

639
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: my final five that we whizz through very quickly to

640
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 2: learn a bit more about it.

641
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: But I know you sent me the final five before,

642
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: and I don't know the answer, so we'll probably actually

643
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 1: have to creep through them very slowly, as I second

644
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: guessed myself.

645
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 3: But we'll see how we go.

646
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: So a couple of quick ones just to just to

647
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 2: try to, I guess, distill and break down into really

648
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: simple steps what we're.

649
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 3: Dealing with when it comes to this idea of letting.

650
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: Our kids grow, you know, let grow dot org a

651
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: free range parenting our kids. In that podcast, that just

652
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 2: made me laugh out loud. You use the line we

653
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: want to give our kids freedom, and then you said,

654
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 2: not so much freedom that they're hitchhiking to the crack house,

655
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: but we want to give them freedom.

656
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 3: So how do we how to parents who are really

657
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 3: wrestling with some of.

658
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: The things that we've talked about today identify where do

659
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: they start? How do they get to the point where

660
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 2: they say, Okay, I will let my child walk or

661
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: ride to school, or I will give them this freedom

662
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 2: in this way or that way.

663
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 3: How do they do that?

664
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: I know that let Grow has got some resources to

665
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: help with this, but what guidance would you give?

666
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, first, I do have to put in a

667
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: plug for our let Grow project because it's free, and

668
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: so is the elect Grow Independence Kit. Pretty Much everything

669
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 1: that we do is free. And the reason I'm mentioning

670
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: it is because it is very hard to be the

671
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: only parent who is doing something that goes a little

672
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: bit against the grain. If nobody is letting their kid

673
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: ride their bike, you know, more than two blocks and

674
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: you say, I think you can go all the way

675
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: to the you know, to the drug store, not the

676
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: drug store, the pharmacy, you know, the candy store, whatever,

677
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: oh my god, candy. If you're saying that your kid

678
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: can do something and other parents aren't, it is harder

679
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: to do. And so when schools do the Let Grow

680
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: project where all the teachers are sending all the kids

681
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: home with the assignment they have to do something on

682
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: their own, then you're not the only one. And in fact,

683
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: then your kid and your neighbor's kid can go together

684
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: to the park or together to the store. So the

685
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: reason I recommend the Lecoral project and its corollary for

686
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: distance learning time, the lecro Independence Kid, is because you

687
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: don't feel alone, and that is a much easier way

688
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 1: to go because you are changing the norms together.

689
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 3: Right.

690
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: We've heard from towns that have done this project that afterwards,

691
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: like the principal went around like two weeks after her

692
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: school had done the lecor project and she saw two

693
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: kids on bikes, a kid on a roller skate, and

694
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: a kid on skateboard in just her little ride home,

695
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: and she said she'd never seen kids outside on their

696
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: own before. So it changes the norms. It's much easier

697
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: to be brave when everybody else is bringing brave to

698
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: the point where it doesn't even feel brave anymore. It

699
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: just feels normal. Just like we were talking about at

700
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: the beginning of this our discussion, when your mother would

701
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: let you walk home at age seven and get yourself

702
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: a snack and walk back to school. She didn't have

703
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: to be an evil and evil brave. She was just

704
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: part of the norm and so were you. So it's

705
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: easier when you do it together. But I would say

706
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: this if you you know, if you want to do it,

707
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: do it with a friend. You don't have to do

708
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: it with the entire school. Send your kids to do

709
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: something together without you. And the thing that is so

710
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: reinforcing and makes it so easy is the first time

711
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: you do it. Because the first time you do it

712
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: and your kid comes home and they walk through the

713
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: door and they've taken the subway or they got you

714
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: the milk. There's that great commercial that you guys have,

715
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: I think either New Zealand or Australia about it, the

716
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,479
Speaker 1: kid who goes and gets the milk for the first time,

717
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: or when they've done anything on their own and they

718
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: come in and they're so proud. You will be out

719
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: of your mind with pride and giddy. And that's reinforcing

720
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: to yourself. You know, this delicious feeling of seeing your

721
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: kid blossoming really helps you take the next step. Really,

722
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: the first time is hard, and after that it just

723
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: keeps getting better because it feels normal and you're proud.

724
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: So obviously a a quick reminder, this needs to be

725
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: developmentally appropriate. We're not suggesting that we let the two

726
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: year old go and collick the milk on their own,

727
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: or even the four year old.

728
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 3: They need to be big.

729
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: Enough to handle themselves in a reasonable fashion. But we

730
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 2: can just ease off on the on the pressure list.

731
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: Actually, I'm sorry I should have jumped in one second

732
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: and said do the things that we were talking about

733
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: before too. If you're sending your kid off, you'll feel

734
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: better if you teach them how to cross the street

735
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: and you walk across with a couple times, and then

736
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: you say when would you go, and you say, yes,

737
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: that's right, and then you let them do it. Once

738
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: you see that your kids are not you know, they're

739
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: not kittens. They they're humans and they will get some

740
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: information into them and absorb it, that will give you

741
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: a lot more calm to Yeah.

742
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 2: The practice runs and the appropriate scaffolding and necessary so

743
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 2: that you can see that EA child does have the

744
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: developmental capacity to pull this off on their own. Last

745
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 2: question for you before we dive into these five how

746
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 2: can we promote free range parenting during a pandemic?

747
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: Well, this independent skit that I'm recommending to let grow

748
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: independence kit is the same thing. I mean, there's certainly

749
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,240
Speaker 1: a lot of things that they can still do by themselves.

750
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: They can go outside. If you pod with certain you know,

751
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: people who you trust in terms of them keeping themselves

752
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: quarantined to the same degree as you, then they can

753
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 1: play together. Right, They can still be outside. They can

754
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 1: be drawing, they can be making dinner for you. They

755
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: can be in charge of their own homework, they can

756
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: be finding new interests. You can give them freedom sometimes

757
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: to play video games, and you know, not worry so

758
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 1: much about that.

759
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 3: You just imagine imagine that, Imagine that.

760
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 4: You know.

761
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: The thing is that when they're home and when you're home,

762
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: there's just too many hours of the day to entertain

763
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,439
Speaker 1: or educate them yourself the whole time. So I'd say,

764
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 1: you know, we just did a giant survey of sixteen

765
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 1: hundred kids and sixteen hundred adults in the States here,

766
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 1: and we ask the kids, what are you learning anything

767
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: new just for fun, you know, not for school, just

768
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: on your own. And the answers were just outrageously charming.

769
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: I'm learning about fuses, I'm braiding hair, I'm studying gangsters.

770
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: I learned that my sister has a boyfriend. There are

771
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: just all these interesting things that once they were bored,

772
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 1: you don't have to cure their boredom all the time

773
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: because they will migrate to something that interests them. And

774
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: when they do, that's education. You know, if they're studying

775
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: everything about cars or everything about worms, reading up on it,

776
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: watching videos, maybe doing a podcast or whatever fake thing

777
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: on it, that's education. So everybody who's worried about their

778
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: kids filling their time, and everybody who's worried about are

779
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: their kids getting enough education, When they find something that

780
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: turns them on and they pursue it, that's focused. That's research.

781
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: That's frustration tolerance because you've got to learn how to

782
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,720
Speaker 1: do it better and better and better, and that's education.

783
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: So don't be so concerned about the schooling maybe going

784
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: down a little bit.

785
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 3: Yes, so good, Okay, thank you.

786
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 2: So five questions to wrap up, Every single person on

787
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,320
Speaker 2: this podcast gets the five questions, and the first.

788
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: One, technical difficulties.

789
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 3: Rapid fire really easy.

790
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 2: If we ask your two boys now age twenty two

791
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: and twenty four, what their favorite thing to do with

792
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: you is, what would they say.

793
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: Lick the ball? You know, I make a lot of brownies.

794
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: They still fight over who gets.

795
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: The ball when they're around the brownies and the beata.

796
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 2: I have the same issue when I go back to

797
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 2: mom and dads as well. What's been your trickiest parenting moment?

798
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: Every parenting moment? Can I just go with that? You

799
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: know everything about the car. We discussed this before, but

800
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: do you have to drive in the rain? I literally

801
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: didn't want my son, the twenty two year old, to

802
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: drive back up to college and the rain. I was overruled,

803
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: and I'm really glad I was overruled by husband and

804
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: son saying are you kidding? Aren't you the free range

805
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,720
Speaker 1: mom that always works.

806
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: I love that you struggle with it, just like anyone

807
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: else with your issues. You know, everyone's got their triggers,

808
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 2: and for you, that's the thing, and I just love

809
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 2: the fact that you're you're actually struggling with it. Question

810
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: number three, If you could spend an hour with your

811
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 2: boys at any age at all, let's say, you know,

812
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,280
Speaker 2: tomorrow afternoon, I wander into the living room three o'clock

813
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 2: and they're at that magical age that you're envisioning right now.

814
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 3: What age would you pick them? Why would you pick

815
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 3: that age?

816
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to say it's I'm going to pick

817
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: like this weekend because when they were visiting us, the

818
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: both of them together, which I really see especially during COVID.

819
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: And I'm saying that in part because I think nostalgia

820
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 1: is my bet mair and if I start wallowing in

821
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: like I can't even look and this is like me

822
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 1: being crazy. I hate looking at pictures of when they

823
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: were like six and eight. It just makes me so

824
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: sad because I will never see that moment again. And

825
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm the only one I would like

826
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 1: to tear from your listener's viewers or whatever. I think

827
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 1: there's something too painful about nostalgia. So I'm just going

828
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: to say, oh, I wish it was yesterday. We took

829
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: a funny picture in front of we bought a lousy

830
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: new car. I mean, it runs, but it's really ugly,

831
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: and we took a picture from the car.

832
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 2: Okay, interesting, Well, even if life is great, right now

833
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 2: and you're so happy to be in the moment.

834
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: Did I say life was great? I said, I don't

835
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: want to wallow in the past. Let us seem too

836
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: golden compared to now.

837
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 3: So thank you for the correction. Let me let me

838
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 3: say that a different way.

839
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 2: Okay, even if you could be really happy right now

840
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: and say that this is this is what you want

841
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 2: to focus on.

842
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 3: What are you looking forward to? As a mom?

843
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: You you should realize, like the crazy person you're talking to,

844
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: am I looking forward to anything? I look forward to? Like, oh,

845
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: one of the suns is coming back to the US

846
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: again on Wednesday? You know? Uh to I really? You know,

847
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 1: people think that I'm this daredevil and this non worrior.

848
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 1: If I imagine them getting married, I shut myself down

849
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: and say, you know, don't jinx it. So I'm just

850
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: looking forward to I think Wednesday. Tonight is Sunday, for

851
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: the record, I'm looking.

852
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: Forward to Wednesday.

853
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: Okay, wait, Monday, I'm looking forward to two days from now.

854
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, well you never know what. You never know

855
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 3: what might happen.

856
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: They say that we teach the most what we need

857
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 2: to learn, or we teach best what we most need to.

858
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,839
Speaker 1: That's so funny. Oh that's so interesting. You heat most

859
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 1: and others what we eat most in ourselves. It's like,

860
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: why is so brave?

861
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 3: Yeah? Interesting?

862
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 2: Okay, last question for you, if you could go back

863
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: to yourself, and.

864
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 3: Now I know that there's no.

865
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: Nostalgia in this one. Okay, this is this is the

866
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 2: advice question. If you could go back to you when

867
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: you were a brand new mum having one of those

868
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 2: really tough moments with your children where things just aren't

869
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 2: working out right and you've got no experience of this

870
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: parenting at all, what advice would you give to yourself

871
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 2: if you could go all the way back to the

872
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: beginning twenty odd years.

873
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it would be about perspective. And actually

874
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: this is one that I'm stealing from Wendy morgl who

875
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,360
Speaker 1: wrote The Blessing of the Skin Knee, and she said,

876
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: it's not all to think that other kids are better

877
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 1: than yours, because you don't see them all the time,

878
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 1: and if you look at anything close up, you will

879
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:12,280
Speaker 1: see the flaws. And so to not envy my friends

880
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: when they were having a perfect day with their kids,

881
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: or what looked like a perfect day, and I was like,

882
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: you know, galumphing along and they were crying and I

883
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: or you know, hitting each other. It's just good to

884
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: remember that nobody really has the perfect kid or the

885
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,919
Speaker 1: perfect answer, and that's that's reassuring to this day.

886
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that'll bring a lot of peace to

887
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: a lot of parents listening to that. Lon, This has

888
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: been such a delightful conversation. I've learned lots. I've enjoyed

889
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 2: your energy and your passion for free ranging. If people

890
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 2: want to learn more about you, whether they want to

891
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 2: grab your books, so they want to get hold of

892
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: the resources You've talked about, what's the best way for

893
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 2: them to do that? What would you like people to

894
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: know more than anything right now so they could get

895
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 2: more info.

896
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: Oh so, first of all, come to let grow dot org.

897
00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: Oh my god. We have so many articles, we have principles,

898
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: we have videos if you want to talk to your

899
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: fellow parents who are sort of working their way through this.

900
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: We're on Facebook at both let grow easy enough like

901
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 1: grow org. I guess or. We also have a page

902
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: called no More Helicopter Parenting. And believe me, I don't

903
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: blame helicopter parents because, as you heard, I'm part helicopter

904
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 1: and so it's just it was just for SEO purposes

905
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: to make it easy to find with search engines, but

906
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: at no more helicopter parenting. It's just parents asking each

907
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: other questions. I can't get my kid off the couch.

908
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: You know, I'm worried about you know, something terrible happening.

909
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: You know, Can you reassure me? It's just a conversation.

910
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: And then my book is Free Range Kids, But I

911
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 1: just got a contract that I signed last week, which

912
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 1: means i'd better start writing it to update it. So

913
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: I'm adding a chapter on anxiety, and a chapter on

914
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: probably on technology, people are very concerned about that, and

915
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 1: then one for schools for school teachers and administrators.

916
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 2: Well, what a great conversation diving into the early years

917
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,439
Speaker 2: of the Free Range Kids movement with Leno'szy. My name's

918
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 2: doctor Justin Colson. It's been great to have you with me. Well,

919
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: I hope that you've enjoyed the podcast. Please join me

920
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 2: next time when I speak.

921
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 3: With Adena Glickman.

922
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 2: A Diena has been heavily involved in the Stanford Resilience

923
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 2: Project and specializes in helping students to become effective resilient learners.

924
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 4: I think I got to this point in parenting where

925
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 4: I just thought, I'm not the boss of you. I'm

926
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 4: the parent, and that's different. Who you are is who

927
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 4: you decide you are, not who I decide you are.

928
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 4: So what you want to do with your energy and

929
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 4: what you want to do with your attention and your

930
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 4: focus is going to be yours.

931
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 3: That's next on the Parenting in Perspective podcast. I hope

932
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 3: you joined me for that. If you've enjoyed what you're

933
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 3: listening to, could you jump on to.

934
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,479
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts Scroll down to the bit where it says

935
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: leave a review.

936
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 3: And tell us what you think. Tell everyone what you think.

937
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 2: It's your reviews and your ratings that help people to

938
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: discover the podcast and lift its visibility so that other

939
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 2: people can find it. In fact, because the visibility has

940
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: been raised so much thanks.

941
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 3: To all of your reviews, we've got a whole bunch

942
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 3: of people.

943
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: Who are looking at sponsoring the show and helping us

944
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 2: to create better and better content for you.

945
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 3: And if you'd like more information about all of the

946
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: Things that we do to support families to be happier, healthier,

947
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 2: better functioning, visit us at happyfamilies dot com dot you

948
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 2: or check out our Facebook page Doctor Justin Coulson's Happy

949
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: Families