1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calcottin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily oz It is Tuesday, 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: the fourteenth of November. I am Billy fitz Simons. 9 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 3: I'm Emma Gillespie. 10 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: Australia's High Court has determined that indefinite immigration detention in 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 2: Australia is unlawful. Australia has had a policy of mandatory 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 2: detention for entering the country without a visa for decades 13 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 2: and the policy has taken many forms over the years. 14 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 2: So what's changed now and what does it mean for 15 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: those seeking asylum in Australia. We'll let you know in 16 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: the Deep Dive. But first, Emma, some news from Tasmania. 17 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 3: A bush fire on Tasmania's East coast has destroyed multiple properties. 18 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 3: No one has been injured, but one firefighter was treated 19 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 3: for smoke inhalation. Two dozen people had gathered at a 20 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 3: boat ramp to escape the fires. The bushfire at Dolphin 21 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 3: Sands burnt through one hundred and twelve hectes, while it 22 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 3: took fourteen fire trucks and thirty firefighters to bring the 23 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 3: blaze under control. 24 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 2: A and Z has reported an annual profit after taxes 25 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 2: of seven point one billion dollars. It comes after record 26 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: consecutive interest rate rises over the past twelve months, with 27 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: higher rates driving the Big four's record profits. 28 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 3: Virgin cabin crew workers are expected to take strike action, 29 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 3: which could ground services across the country. Virgin staff, who 30 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 3: are part of the transport workers' unions, say they're seeking 31 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:54,559 Speaker 3: better pay, job security and safer working conditions. It comes 32 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 3: after Virgin Australia canceled a planned meeting with union members 33 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 3: to respond to workers claims and negotiate a new bargaining agreement. 34 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 2: And today's good news, the Indian city of Ayordia has 35 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: set a Guinness World Record for lighting the most oil 36 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 2: lamps in a single location at once. Over two million 37 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,640 Speaker 2: lamps were lit at the Saaru River and we're burning 38 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 2: for forty five minutes for this year's Devali. The Festival 39 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 2: of Lights. 40 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 3: Today we're talking about a recent High Court decision which 41 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: ruled that indefinite immigration detention is unlawful. Now, when we 42 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 3: hear those words indefinite immigration detentionent, I suspect many people 43 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 3: listening might be thinking about Australia's refugee policy. Back to 44 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 3: the whole Stop the Boat's era, Billy, you're taking us 45 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 3: through this today. So firstly, am I right in saying 46 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 3: that this High Court decision relates to those policies? Yes? 47 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people will remember those stop 48 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: the Boats ads that were particularly famous, and yes, this 49 00:02:58,360 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: is absolutely connected to that. 50 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 3: So for those of us who might have forgotten or 51 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 3: not be so familiar with this, can you remind us 52 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 3: what we need to know about those policies? 53 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 2: Yeah? So I think first it's important to have a 54 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 2: bit of context around what immigration detention actually is. It's 55 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 2: one of those phrases that I think we hear a lot, 56 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 2: but you might actually not know definition. So, immigration detention 57 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: is used to detain people who don't have a valid 58 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 2: visa to be in Australia, and it's supposed to be 59 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: a temporary state, so you are detained until either you 60 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 2: get a visa or you get deported, and detention is 61 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 2: just a holding pattern until one of those two things happens. 62 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: And immigration detention isn't just about asylum seekers or refugees either. 63 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: So for example, if an international student or a tourist 64 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 2: commits a crime and breaks the terms of their visa, 65 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 2: they might be detained before being deported. But what we 66 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: are focusing on today is indefinite immigration detention, detention that 67 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: lasts potentially forever, and that particularly is relevant to asylum 68 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 2: seekers and refugees. 69 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: So when we think about that example of stopping the boats, 70 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 3: we're talking about people that came to Australia or attempted 71 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: to come to Australia without a valid visa before arriving here. Now, 72 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 3: when you say asylum seekers and refugees, is there a difference? 73 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 3: What's the difference? 74 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 2: So an asylum seeker is somebody who arrives in a 75 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: country to seek protection because they claim they are facing 76 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: persecution in their home country and they're not safe there. 77 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: And when you say persecution, really you mean that someone 78 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 3: could be facing religious persecution. They might be discriminated against 79 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 3: because of their race, their background, a whole myriad of reasons, 80 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 3: depending on where they've come from and what the conflict 81 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 3: is in those countries. 82 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, which means that they're not safe to be 83 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 2: in that country. Now if their claim is found to 84 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: be genuine and that their home country is not safe 85 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 2: or they're facing persecution there, they then con refugees, and 86 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 2: countries like Australia have obligations to protect refugees. But over 87 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: the years, several Australian governments have introduced policies to discourage 88 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: seeking asylum without following official pathways, and in part that 89 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 2: was due to a number of people dying while attempting 90 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 2: to reach Australia by sea through people smugglers, So to 91 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: discourage people from making the attempt, laws passed in the 92 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: early twenty tens denied visas to asylum seekers who arrived 93 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 2: by boat, and at the time those laws saw thousands 94 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: of people placed in detention facilities. 95 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 3: Okay, so that's how we end up with people in 96 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 3: immigration detention. But you mentioned that that was supposed to 97 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 3: be temporary. So what's going wrong when we've heard about 98 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 3: this notion of indefinite immigration detention? 99 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: Right, So, under international law, you can't return people to 100 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 2: their home country if they face persecution there. But the 101 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 2: current policy is that they aren't allowed to stay in 102 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: Australia either. So basically they can't leave, but they also 103 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 2: can't stay. And so what's happened is that thousands of 104 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: people found themselves in detention for a really long time 105 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 2: in Australia. Now gradually the government or successive governments i 106 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 2: should say, have done deals with safe third countries to 107 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 2: resettle people. So deals have been done with the US 108 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: and also with New Zealand for example, to send them there. 109 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: And those who were deemed no threat to the community 110 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 2: have in many cases been allowed into community detention. And 111 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 2: that's where you are given temporary visas that allow you 112 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 2: to live in the Australian community until a third country. 113 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: So the US or New Zealand, like I said before, 114 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 2: agree to resettle you. 115 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 3: What about those who are then still left in detention facilities. 116 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 3: We know that countries like the US and New Zealand 117 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 3: aren't taking on all of those people. 118 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of the reasons that some people end 119 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: up left in detention is that they have criminal histories. 120 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 2: About ninety percent of the one thousand people still left 121 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: in immigration detention have prior criminal histories and at least 122 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: some of them are refugees. Now that creates a problem, 123 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: so the government can't return them home, but they also 124 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: don't want to release them into the community, and third 125 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: party countries are likely less willing to take them, and 126 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: so the result has been ongoing detention. Now, detention is 127 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: supposed to last until you were granted a visa or 128 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: you are deported, as I mentioned earlier. But if neither 129 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: of those things happen, that's when you can end up 130 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 2: staying in detention for a really long period of time. 131 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: And it's this idea which was challenged in the High 132 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: Court last week. 133 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 3: So now we've got all of the context, we understand 134 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: the background leading up to this point. So what happened 135 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 3: in the High Court? 136 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: So the High Court was considering the case of a 137 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: man they identified as n z Yq. Here's a Rohinga 138 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: man and the Rohinka people are an ethnic minority who 139 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 2: have experienced a long history of persecution in me and 140 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: mar So n z Yq arrived by boat in Australia 141 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: in twenty twelve and he was granted a temporary community visa. 142 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 2: He lived for a short time in Sydney while he 143 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: was waiting for third country resettlement. But in twenty fifteen 144 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: he was charged and subsequently convicted on account of child 145 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: sexual abuse. Now he served out his prison sentence and 146 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 2: when that prison sentence was over, he was in limbo. 147 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 2: He couldn't be settled in Australia and he couldn't be returned. 148 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: To me and Mar. 149 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 3: So is that because he had a conviction, So there 150 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 3: were no countries willing to take him. But similarly, because 151 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 3: of his history, we know that we're talking about a 152 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 3: Rohinga man, he could not be returned to me and 153 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 3: Mar because it wouldn't be safe. 154 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And so in court it was accepted that 155 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 2: there was no realistic prospect that this would change, that 156 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 2: his situation would change, and he could either go back 157 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: to Minamhar or he could be settled in Australia. So 158 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: he was put back in immigration detention and that detention 159 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 2: could have lasted for basically the rest of his life. 160 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 2: And his lawyers argued that this was unlawful. Now, they 161 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: made a number of arguments, but the one that was 162 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: ultimately successful was that indefinite detention is unconstitutional. Now why 163 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: was it unconstitutional? Well, basically, the Constitution gives courts power 164 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: to decide punishments, so the government cannot decide someone's punishments. 165 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: That is a responsibility solely of the courts. Now, the 166 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: lawyers argued that if the detention is indefinite, it constitutes 167 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: a punishment and the government doesn't have the legal grounds 168 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: to indefinitely detain someone, and the High Court agreed with 169 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: the lawyers on that aspect. 170 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 3: So to recap we've got this man en Zedyq. He 171 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 3: has served a prison sentence on a charge. He's then 172 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 3: been returned to in definite detention. He can't be resettled 173 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,439 Speaker 3: anywhere else, and the High Court finds that his indefinite 174 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 3: detention is unlawful. So what does all of this mean? 175 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: What next? 176 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: Then? 177 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So that is a massive decision for the 178 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: High Court to decide that indefinite immigration detention is unlawful 179 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 2: in Australia. So nz YQ has now been freed following 180 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 2: that decision, and the Court specifically ordered that he be freed. 181 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 2: But it also has implications for other similar cases. So 182 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 2: when the High Court declares that something is unlawful for 183 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 2: one person, it then applies to other people who are 184 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: in the same position, and in Court. Government lawyers said 185 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: they anticipated that this could apply to about ninety two people, 186 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 2: and the government has so far revealed that about eighty 187 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 2: people have been released since this High Court decision last week. Now, 188 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: because some of these people are dean to pose a 189 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 2: threat to the community, the government says it will require 190 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 2: these people to meet similar conditions to parole. In response, 191 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 2: last week, a government spokesperson said that the safety of 192 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 2: the community was the utmost priority. 193 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of 194 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 3: The Daily Oz. If you're listening to this podcast on Spotify, 195 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 3: please give us a follow. It tells Spotify that they 196 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 3: should show our podcast to more people, which I think 197 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 3: they should. We'll be back again tomorrow. Until then, have 198 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: a great day.