WEBVTT - Andrew Fraser 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:03.560 Andrew Fraser is a name you might remember if you're 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:06.040 a longtime listener of Nonother Crime podcast, or if you 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.760 just listened to the Peter Dubass episode. Now, in that episode, 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:13.240 I mentioned that the man who eventually took down serial 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:17.360 murderer Peter du Pass for his third life sentence was 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:25.360 once a prominent lawyer. This is his story, dum. It 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:27.720 is a tale of a man who flew too close 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:30.479 to the sun, a man who was once one of, 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:35.560 if not the top, or certainly most notorious criminal defense 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:39.320 lawyers in Melbourne. Oh wow, and how Andrew Fraser ended 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.800 up behind bars himself to be the one to whom 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.720 Peter du Pass would confess. Wow? How much do you 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:47.440 know about this story? 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:49.760 I don't know anything about this. It's apart from what 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:52.479 you already told me, you know in the PAS episode. 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:54.680 That's what you call a little teas Ah. 0:00:54.600 --> 0:01:16.280 You call it a little teas Hey there, everybody, welcome 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:20.120 to Not Another Crime Podcast. I'm Georgia Love, I'm Sammy Peterson. 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.520 I'm a journalist, I am not and I do you 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.160 know what if you'll just skip ahead and listen to 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.319 the story, all you have to do is go to 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.479 the show notes and look at the time stamp. You'll 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:34.120 find all you need. 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.160 That's right, But we do have a crime update before 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:40.000 we do, if you want to hang around for that. 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:45.080 There has been an update in the Deisi Freeman search. Yes, 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.520 so you did the story on that. This is the 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:54.320 fifty six year old sovereign citizen who is suspected of 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.760 being the person who shot dead two police officers por 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:02.320 Punker in Regional Victoria in August of this year, twenty five. 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:07.200 He took off into the bush that day after shooting 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.240 three police officers, two of them fatally, and hasn't been 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:11.920 seen since nowadays. 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.600 It's been such a long time months. 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.480 And not a single sighting of him. Police have been 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.480 searching for him ever since. They have conducted a number 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.640 of really targeted searchers in certain areas, and just a 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:30.400 couple of days ago they released a statement that they 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.360 had conducted a five day targeted search of an area 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.080 of less than one square kilometer of dense bushland on 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:43.680 Mount Buffalo, which is near Paupunka. They had the specialized 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:49.240 search teams, detectives, search and rescue and cadaver dogs and 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.840 they confirmed that they were in this case searching for his. 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:56.000 Remains, So I guess enough time has passed that they're 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.359 now going Well, who knows what happened he is Probably we. 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:02.680 Don't reason why they're searching. They've said they're searching for 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:06.320 his remains and should sap top. They didn't find anything, 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:10.840 so there's still no site of him or remains or anything. 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.040 Now we don't and probably will never or may never 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.560 know why they have moved on to the search for 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:21.440 remains and why that specific area very much. My own 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.640 hypothesis is to think if they were searching a very 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.600 specific area and have now because they've searched that specific 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:29.720 spot before and they said at the time they were 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:34.040 looking for an armed potential shooter. Yep, this time they've 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.400 said they were looking for his body. It seems to 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:40.160 me they've somehow got intelligence that whether it is that 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:42.840 he has said said to someone in the past, if 0:03:42.840 --> 0:03:46.680 I were ever to know go and off myself, I 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:49.800 would do it here, whether maybe he'd been sighted there 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:54.560 or heard there and not since. But for whatever reason 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.000 that we may never know, that specific area is where 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:01.240 they believe his remains to and they still weren't able 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:03.560 to find anything. Now this area for anyone going what 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:05.240 do you mean, Like, how could they not have a 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:09.920 five days searching a specific area with kadava dogs. But 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:14.400 it is dance dance dance bushland. There are a lot 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:20.320 of like underground kind of caves, really hilly mountainous areas. 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.600 Like he really he could be anywhere. He could have 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.479 gone deep into a cave and taken his own life. 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:30.080 He could have you know, been taken by the wild 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:34.200 animals or anything. But yeah, they did confirm they're looking 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:34.800 for his body. 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.440 Have you ever heard like a man hunt like that 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:40.760 before for someone that's just never been found, Like a 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:43.960 man hunt for someone I can't remember anything where it's 0:04:43.960 --> 0:04:46.560 been like a man hunt for someone that did something 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:48.880 like that, you know, who allegedly did something like this 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.080 and then just hasn't been found. It seems so nuts 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:52.400 for someone. 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:53.919 I mean, the ones I can the only ones I 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.400 can think of. They I'm thinking of them because they 0:04:56.400 --> 0:05:01.160 then have been found. So Tony Mockbell, who was a 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:05.000 very prominent person of the Melbourne Underground gangland War, which 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.560 comes up in today's episode. He was on the run 0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:11.080 for many years and was found years later in Greece, 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.159 like there are in the musical Yes in the musical 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:16.359 Grease hiding in plain sight playing rizzo. 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.360 Yes so much. That's right, that's right. 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.120 There are worse things I could do. Tony Bockbell sings 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:29.120 about his drug that's quite funny. There are lots of people. 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:31.200 There was one I remember covering a couple of years ago. 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.000 I remember covering it. I don't remember the details, but 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.520 a man who had been on Australia's Most wanted list 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.640 for like a decade or something like that was found 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.520 hiding out in like a remote house in the Northern 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:48.760 Territory or remote Queensland or something like. There are many, many, 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:52.039 many fugitives at any given time. This one is so 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:56.240 prominent because he shot and killed two police officers, and 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:58.680 sadly it sounds like, or it feels like, he may 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:04.520 never be found, which is awful for everyone involved. It 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.640 is so horrendous in the true meaning of the word, 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:12.120 for those police officers, families, for all their colleagues, that 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:16.279 they can't get justice for that, that they're not seeing 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.680 someone taken down for that. It's just awful in every way. 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:24.479 Well, even like this year, there was talk of a 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:27.040 man who had gone on the run with he'd taken 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:30.520 two of his kids and New Zealand and they've been 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:32.560 missing for something like four years or something. 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.440 Yeah, and they were found like living like camping out 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:36.000 in the bush. 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.680 Yeah. Yeah, they shot him. 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.960 There's lots of cases violent fugitives as well. 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.159 That would be an interesting story to do it, something 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.000 that would be all right, retract all of that more, 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:48.400 go back contract all the time. 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:52.840 That would have sounded beautiful and everybody. 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.240 Everybody walking to not another Yeah, but it is so 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:59.440 it is so interesting to look at the Desert Freeman 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.039 case because just you know, we're probably not going to 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:03.680 find out a lot of the information that you know, 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.520 the police have been. I know that because I don't 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:09.080 know if they were brought in the army because that 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.200 was yes, they did, Oh they did, they did, because 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:13.760 that was a big thing to actually escalate. There was. 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:18.440 I will have said the correct number in the episode 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.560 we did, but I believe it was seven hundred or 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:25.880 seven to nine hundred people actively searching for about two 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.840 weeks before it was the search was scaled back a bit, 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.200 but yeah, huge, huge, huge. There is still a one 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:39.280 million dollar reward remaining for evidence that leads to a 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.600 conviction for those officers debts, but it sounds like, I mean, 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.000 it feels like a big thing for police to concede 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.040 that they were looking for his remains even. 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.640 Absolutely well, thank you Jeeve for the update on Deisi Freeman. 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.080 And the only other crime update I have for you 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:59.320 is guess what dropped on streaming service stan? Oh? 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.000 I saw I saw the death cart. 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:06.520 Two and three of the Aaron Patterson slash Mushroom Lady 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:10.240 documentary on stan that One of our beautiful listeners messaged 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:13.080 us today and said, the power of the pod. You 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:17.080 two have obviously bullied them releasing them. 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:21.880 Yeah, we haven't watched them yet. He's called death caps 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.280 or something, isn't it. It's like that. That's really interesting 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:28.240 because it took such a long time for it hasn't 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:30.240 really but I mean for a documentary, but it is 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:33.880 interesting that it just came out now. Yeah. I'm fascinated 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:36.200 to watch the next two parts of it too. There's 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:39.600 only a three part series. Yeah, and they are making 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:43.239 a TV show of the Mushroom Killers. 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.800 Follow here like they will always going. 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.840 Of course, of course it's already cast in everything. 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:50.559 I feel like they'll have to put it off for 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:55.120 a while though, because she's been allowed to launch an appeal. 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.120 Yeah, yes, what does that mean that now she's got 0:08:58.960 --> 0:08:59.640 she she. 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:01.959 Has I think it's up to twelve months. Oh sorry, no, 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:05.680 she has. She has log lodged an appeal with the 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:10.400 Appeals Court of Victoria. We did, I can't remember which 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.160 episode it. Well, sorry if you guys haven't heard that 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:13.960 one yet. I spoke about it at the top of 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.959 one of the episodes recently, about the grounds of the 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:20.800 appeal that she is saying. She her lawyers are saying 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:22.400 she should not have been found guilty. 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:23.160 Yeah. 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.240 Yeah, And so the appeals court has said, okay, yes, 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:29.800 we'll hear that, and then the finding of that will 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.440 depend whether she gets a retrail or anything like that. 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:34.840 But it will probably take up to a year for 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:36.920 just the hearing in the appeals court. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:37.240 Yeah. 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.880 Wow, So mark my words, dear listeners, don't you worry 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:42.559 your pretty little heads. We will bring you all the 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:43.400 updates to that. 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.439 It's beautiful little heads, didn't she before we get into 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.079 the episode today? How has your god? 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:50.319 You know it's been good. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:51.400 I know it's been good. 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.920 Because I went to Tasmania. Who else went to Tasmania? 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.880 I went to Oh my god, we both went at 0:09:57.880 --> 0:09:59.160 the same time. Didn't see each other. 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:01.080 I heard you were there. 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.120 Refused to see each other off mine, refused to record 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:07.400 anything there. We record an episode that you would have 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:12.839 listened to already with the great great Elizabeth Lame from 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.720 a podcast I'm hoping you've already listened to, called Beth's Dead. 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:19.720 And we had to get up because of the LA 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.880 time difference. We had to get up very early and 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:26.000 do it. We were excited to do it anyway, but 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:27.560 we actually had a big night to night before. 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.120 We had a few wines, a few wines with our 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:30.920 friend Disco. 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:32.280 That's amazing to see disco. 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:35.199 It was amazing to see disco. Yeah, it was. It 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.559 was a great time. I goddamn love Tasmania. I lived 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.200 there for years and I visit often. But I realized 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.880 I hadn't been down in a long time, so it 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:46.560 was my first visit in a while, and I just 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:50.640 loved it. The weather turned on for us. We stayed 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:56.120 in a beautiful hotel called Crown Plaza, but we had 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.640 delicious food. I went to work. I worked from the 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.760 radio there. It was just fantastic. I was a bit 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:03.600 depressed to come home. 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.000 Actually, well, that's nice. We went to the we went 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:09.160 to the market, the Selamonka market. Of course, it was 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:11.480 just the best. It was so good. I got Digs 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:12.840 a beautiful toy. 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:15.480 How did that go? Tell the listeners? 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.800 Doesn't go too well. It was a B soft, too 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:21.360 soft toy, which, if you've ever seen best in show, 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.520 I call it the busy Bee because there's a whole, 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.480 the whole through line of that is this dog, the 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:31.000 dog obsessed. People that are overly obsessed with their dogs 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.520 and believe that this dog owned the responds to his 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.280 B busy bee toy and got Digs one of those 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:42.480 from a toy shop that was for kids, and I 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.559 the guy was very excited to sell it, probably thinking 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:46.040 that I had. 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:47.960 A beautiful definitely think it was for a child. 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:49.280 Yeah, I definitely think it was for a child. 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:51.600 Can you tell me now? I want us to say 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:53.600 it at the same time, so we'll see so the 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.679 listener doesn't think we're exaggerating. I'll countdown three to one. 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.800 But the question is how long after handing the toy 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:07.240 over to Digs, had he ripped it ready? Three? Two? 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:07.880 One? 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:09.040 Twenty seconds? 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.079 Okay? Well yeah, well yeah, twenty seconds is immediately. 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.480 He ran over to his bed, with it in his 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:15.120 mouth and immediately. 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:16.960 Yeah, did you think we're going to get the same then? 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.599 Well, like because if you'd said like twenty seconds, that 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.720 would have sounded like an eager So the listener knows 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:26.640 it's true. It was that quick. 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:28.960 If I sit you up and I went four hours, yeah. 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:30.760 You may have that kind of thing you would do. 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:33.000 Yeah, he ripped it apart. And he's got some great 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.080 gin as well. Didn't you just gin? 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.760 We're having it right now. Yeah, it's from Taylor and 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.400 something I can't with it, Taylor Swift. I think gin. 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:44.959 There's so many gin and whiskey distilleries and it was 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:47.360 so good. But there's this one that makes a honey gin. 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:53.040 So it's infused with natural honey and it's so with 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:58.120 the busy bear very tazzy was beautiful and I loved it. 0:12:58.160 --> 0:12:59.000 Did you love it? 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.040 Absolutely loved that A great time was there for two nights. 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.880 It was just so so lovely the same time, you 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.280 can't not enjoy Tasmania. I just love it. 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:14.920 And and the AFL football team for Tasmania was approved 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:17.600 because they approved meil of the stadium. This is such 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.960 local news. Sorry, yeah, but excited an af football team 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.080 in their exciting Yeah excited? 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:28.559 Gee? Are you ready to get into this week's episode? 0:13:28.559 --> 0:13:31.480 Are you? Because I've been teasing this story for ages. 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.080 It's one of my favorite stories. 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:34.600 Yeah, and I've. 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.640 Been teasing it to you for a while. It is 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.280 about Andrew Fraser, as you know from the intro. But 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:43.960 the reason I've been You've been wanting me to do 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:45.760 this for so long because I told you that David 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:48.960 Wenham starred in a show about Andrew Fraser, and you 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.000 love David Wenne but had not seen the show, and 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:56.480 I've stopped you. I've banned you from watch the story 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:57.800 on the pod. So I'm going to tell you the 0:13:57.800 --> 0:13:59.480 story today and then you can go and enjoy the 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:00.600 Dawnam Show. 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:01.880 Yeah, and you also have to listen to the p 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:04.920 to Do Pass episode where Andrew Craser is brought up 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:05.680 in that episode. 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:07.560 That's right. Much to get through? 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.800 Much to get through. If you want to leave us 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:13.800 an email, you can do that Sammy at Justnothercompany dot 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.400 com dot au leave us a voicemail. All the links 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.600 are in the show notes. We call it a speak 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:20.520 pipe and we'll. 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.880 Play it on in our mail bag section at the end. 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.640 Of the podcast. Will leave a five star rating. Leave 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.560 a five star review. The more you review, the more 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.800 you rate the podcast, the more the algorithm boosts it 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:33.520 and we get out there to more people. 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:35.560 Oh yeah, and you can follow us on Instagram and 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.320 tik dot plaars at not another crime podcast. 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.160 Oh my god, let's get into this week's episode. 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:49.320 Let's do it. Andrew Roderick Fraser was born in nineteen 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:54.400 fifty one to a comfortable middle class family in Melbourne, Australia. 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.200 And Roderick as well. That's such an interesting name, isn't it. 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.840 It feels very kind of old English. Yeah, family name. 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.760 He went to Wesley College and went on to marry 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:05.760 and have two children. 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.960 So Wesley College is quite a fancy school in Melbourne, 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:09.880 isn't it very expensive? 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:12.640 Yeah? It's a private grammar school. 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:13.760 Yeah yeah, with. 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.800 Boys and girls. He was a good student, but not 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:19.880 a great one. He was one of those kids who 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.440 was naturally clever, but he didn't put in a whole 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.760 heap of work. Sure, he loved an argument, so becoming 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.840 a lawyer seems to fit absolutely. He also really loved 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.520 the idea of money, and in particular having lots of it. Sure, 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:37.520 he was described by the script writer on what would 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:41.480 later become a TV series about his life as being 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:45.000 a man with a strong streak of narcissism, he was 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.080 drawn to the law because it was a fast track 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:48.960 to social and financial success. 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:52.040 Wow, okay, were his parents lawyers or anything as well? 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:54.360 I didn't find anything on what his parents did, but 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:58.200 they were well off enough that the kids went to 0:15:58.360 --> 0:15:59.000 private school. 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:00.840 They were the Wiggles, that's. 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:05.880 Right, their time before they gave birth in nineteen fifty one. 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:06.520 Beautiful. 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.440 Now, he obviously did get into law, because that's where 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.760 this story is going, but he only passed by one percent. 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.600 You know, a pass is a pass. But just to 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:20.600 how far he gets in law and how prominent he was, 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:22.400 it's interesting that he just scraped through. 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.320 Is that like ninety like you know something that people 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:26.840 were quite high to get into. 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.960 Law, to get into yeah, exactly. Now, his teachers and 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.920 classmates probably didn't expect him to go on to become 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.880 the big name in law that he inevitably would, all right. 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:41.440 One thing he did have in spades was doggedness. He 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.280 treated every client as the most important client he could 0:16:44.440 --> 0:16:46.640 or would ever have, and made sure he was available 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.120 to them at any and every moment they might want him. 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.120 That's a pretty good It's a good quality to have 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:51.680 in someone. 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:54.760 It was very much. He was like, I mean, I'll 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.160 do anything to make the most money that I can. 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.000 So if I'm the most available, the more people will 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:01.800 hire me. I will work. 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:03.040 Now. 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.680 This is how he became so popular and yes, very 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.040 very wealthy. He would turn up to court to represent 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:13.399 the pits of society. His words, not mine. He was 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:18.400 truly representing some heinous people in a Mercedes Benz convertible 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.680 at first, later to be replaced. 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:21.480 By a Porsche Oh wow. 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.080 He aligned himself to professional criminals and said, I'm in 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.600 your camp. I make house calls twenty four hours a day, 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.000 and I will get a magistrate out of bed at two. 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.440 Am for you if I have to right her. 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:37.639 Magistrate, I implore you wake up. But in doing this 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:41.480 he very much alienated himself from the other side, the police, 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:45.919 all right, and they ended up loathing him because he 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.240 wasn't only successful in court, he also seems to carry 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:52.760 it on outside the court. His attitude was that this 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:54.800 was a game and he was able to win it. 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:55.280 Right. 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:59.560 He wasn't just about justice, he was about winning this 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.680 will become quite evident. He would live by the line 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.040 you never ask your clients if they're guilty or not sure, so. 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:09.680 You don't know you're not liable in any way. 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:12.320 You never ask. And I heard him say this many 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:17.000 times in different interviews when I was researching this. His job, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:18.919 as can be argued, of course, is the job of 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:23.040 every defense lawyer, was presuming innocence and make sure only 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:27.359 the cases with strong enough evidence proven beyond reasonable doubt 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:31.280 would go down. But this often perhaps went a little 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:34.760 too far. He had a lot of clients, obviously, but 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:37.359 I'm going to talk today about the three or at 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.159 least three of the most prominent ones for which he 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:44.240 became infamous and inevitably led to his downfall. 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:45.280 Wow. Okay. 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:48.440 The first is a name, a man by the name 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:53.640 of Dennis Allen aka missed a Death. Have you heard 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:54.200 of him? 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:54.640 No? 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.560 He was a violent and depraved drug dealer who dipped 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:02.800 into his own supply coming heavily addicted himself. This only 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.199 made him even more erratic than he was already. He 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:10.200 was the eldest son of criminal matriarch Kath Petting Girl. Okay, Yeah, 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.160 which I feel like anyone from Melbourne will recognize that name. 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.040 It is one of the most infamous and notorious names 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:23.639 in Melbourne crime. Her family, family, family, Her family is 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:28.320 inarguably evil and very dangerous. And I'll go into some 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:32.400 of this family a bit later on cath Petting Girl 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.560 brought her son, her first son, Dennis Allen, to see 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.560 Andrew Fraser when he was in his twenties, and they 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.159 had a lot of cash to spend, so spend it 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:45.919 on Fraser they did. Alan was a major drug dealer 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.400 in inner city Melbourne, mostly working around Richmond and South 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:51.880 Era during the nineteen eighties. 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:53.960 You've got to have your beat, I feel like when 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:55.879 you're working in the underground as well, you've got to 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:57.760 have your beat. Like exactly a lot of people know about, 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:00.800 like you know, the kind of a Carlton, you know, 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.359 crimes around that Rome and the crew. 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:07.080 Will come up as well. It's a very Melbourne story, 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.679 No I like it. It's full shadow. So one of 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:13.800 the things, I mean, there's lots of stuff about this 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.040 horrible man. One of the things that kind of comes 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.000 up again and again is that he lived his house 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.639 in Richmond backed onto the train line and back in 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:26.399 those days, trains had windows that you could put up 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.919 and down. So he would have his drug runners throw 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:34.000 the drugs out of the train window into his backyard. 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.160 Doctor Death, not Andrew Fras, No, no, no. 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:41.240 He said, we're all on Dennis, and he would do that, 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:44.040 so you know, it was never seen going in and 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:51.200 out of his front front door. I should certainly, my god, 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:56.440 fish good. The money he made from drugs, he set 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:00.240 up brothels and massage parlors in inverted commas, and he 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.280 paid off police. There was a lot of corruption around 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:03.920 him these days. 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.160 Also, can I just say that massage parlors. A friend 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:09.280 of mine went to a massage parlor the other day 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:11.640 and the end got offered an extra service. 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.760 And I went to like what he thought was just 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.000 like a spa day spar or knew it was. 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:19.879 It was no, no, it was a massage place to 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:22.199 get like you had like bad knees and got like 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:25.719 a massage and got offered an extra service at the end. 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:29.119 Was like, that's so interesting because it is hard, I reckon, 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:31.480 I don't. I've never really had a message before. 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:32.560 That's why he was offered. 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:34.879 Yeah, but also like yeah, I get that, and I 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:39.440 like that. I love that. Okay, I think what you did. 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:44.320 It was amazing then, because I think it is a 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:47.960 thing that probably people know, like the unspoken thing of 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.720 going oh I can go here they call a happy ending, 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.560 But how would you know, like if it. 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:58.560 Like, no, there's like an unwritten rules. The ones that 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:01.320 have the flash neon open. 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:04.320 Signs, ah really and that have like. 0:22:04.600 --> 0:22:07.080 You can't see through the windows because they're all covered 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:09.040 with like the signage. 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:11.920 Sure okay, shoes hanging out the. 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:18.280 Drug dealers like Dennis Allen. A right, So I've got 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:23.119 a quote here from Andrew Fraser talking about Dennis Allen. 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:26.840 He would buy heroine and crush it and flatten it, 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:29.199 then cover it in glad rap and hang it on 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:31.840 the clothesline in the backyard with a douna over it 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:35.840 like a quilt cover. He would then crank the line 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:38.240 up high so it was well above any dogs that 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:41.360 the police might bring in. So he was drying out 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:46.159 his drugs in plain sight cover. His other treat This 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:49.159 is still Fraser talking about him. His other trick was 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:52.280 to buy a heap of potted azaleas, pull them, pull 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:54.200 them out of the pot, stick the gear in the 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:56.600 bottom of the pot, then put the plant back in 0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:58.919 and bury the pot in the garden, so it just 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:01.840 looked as if it was growing in the ground. Sure, 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:04.439 with guns, he would dig a hole up against the 0:23:04.440 --> 0:23:07.680 boundary fence and then go side like dig under sideways 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:10.840 into his neighbour's yard to bury the gun that way. 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.440 If police ever dug it up, exactly under the adience. 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:17.000 If the police ever dull it to you, thank you, 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.280 dig you Soliah. That could be the name of a dog. 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:23.399 If police dug it up, he would prove that it 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:24.680 wasn't on his property. 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:27.720 Oh okay, that's pretty clever. 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:30.960 Yeah, we're not giving advice here, We're just talking about 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:31.960 the crimes of someone. 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:34.040 Yes, no advice. Now. 0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:37.040 One major crime he was convicted of, and there are 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:39.439 so many, but one of the major ones was a 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.119 rape in the nineteen seventies for which he served a 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:49.199 ten year prison sentence. This hardened him significantly. After his 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:52.400 release from this sentence, he was suspected of being involved 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:56.600 in up to thirteen some reports says many as fifteen murders. 0:23:56.760 --> 0:23:58.000 Oh wow, okay. 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:00.359 One of his most heinous crimes was the mo of 0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:07.080 former Hell's Angels Biky Anton Kenny. Dennis Allen had cut 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:09.840 off his legs with a chainsaw to fit him into 0:24:09.840 --> 0:24:12.119 a forty four gallon drum that was dumped in the 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:12.720 Arrow River. 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:13.879 Oh my god. 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:19.680 He's also believed to have killed his friend Wayne Stanhope. Now, 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:22.680 whether Alan planned to kill stan Hope or did it 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:26.360 on a whim is uncertain, but what happened was when 0:24:26.400 --> 0:24:29.159 he was invited. So Stanhope was invited over to Dennis 0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:33.600 Allen's home, like straight on his release from jailp he went. 0:24:33.800 --> 0:24:36.119 They were all doing drugs together and he went to 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:41.120 change a record on Allan's stereo system and Alan shot 0:24:41.160 --> 0:24:46.159 him in the head. He emptied two guns before cutting 0:24:46.160 --> 0:24:47.000 his friend's throat. 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:47.879 Oh wow. 0:24:48.560 --> 0:24:51.359 His body was never found, so no charges were laid. 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:54.960 Everyone knew he was guilty, but wow. 0:24:55.000 --> 0:24:59.640 This is what has been said about what happened in 0:24:59.760 --> 0:25:04.120 all of Allan's alleged crimes. Andrew Fraser essentially helped him 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:08.080 avoid jail time by leveraging his knowledge of corrupt Victorian 0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:11.560 police at the time, and there was a lot of corruption, 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:16.120 So essentially Andrew Fraser knew about the corruption and would 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:20.760 use that to kind of not get him charged. He 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:23.240 would get a lot of Allan's hearings adjourned time and 0:25:23.280 --> 0:25:27.800 time again, but one was particularly prominent. Dennis had asked 0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:30.000 Andrew Fraser to get in a German in a hearing 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:33.439 at the coroner's court. So it was hearing into a 0:25:33.480 --> 0:25:36.240 woman who had died of a heroin overdose, but whose 0:25:36.240 --> 0:25:38.439 body had been found in a river with signs that 0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:42.040 had been put there after death. Dennis Allen came forward 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:44.600 as the main suspect, but there wasn't enough evidence to 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:48.640 arrest and charge him, so instead they did a coroner's 0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:52.440 inquiry into her death and essentially into whether they could 0:25:52.480 --> 0:25:55.760 find enough evidence to charge Allan. Now, Fraser had kind 0:25:55.760 --> 0:25:58.080 of said, I can't get you out of this one, mate. 0:25:58.119 --> 0:26:02.000 It's the coroner's court. It looks really bad here. I 0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:03.960 can't adjourn this anymore. You weren't going to have to 0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:06.960 go in today. Andrew Fraser went and picked him up. 0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:10.040 They drove in to the Coroner's court together and as 0:26:10.040 --> 0:26:15.520 they pulled up they saw dozens of fire trucks because 0:26:15.560 --> 0:26:19.399 the Coroner's court had been firebombed, so it was closed 0:26:19.400 --> 0:26:24.800 for the day. My god, Alan said, quote told you 0:26:24.840 --> 0:26:39.280 I'd get it adjourned. Alan said, quote told you I'd 0:26:39.280 --> 0:26:40.560 get it adjourned. 0:26:42.119 --> 0:26:47.000 Oh my god, this time this is such an extreme Yeah. 0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:51.480 Yeah, Now Andrew Fraser. Fraser was quoted as saying, Dennis 0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:54.320 was always polite to me, listened and took my advice, 0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:57.439 but his only redeeming feature to me was that he 0:26:57.480 --> 0:27:00.600 had a lot of money. Sure, clearly this is still phrases. 0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:02.560 Quite clearly he was a dreadful person. 0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:05.879 Sure, okay, So he knew he was representing you know, 0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:10.520 can you call them not pests? But it was like 0:27:11.040 --> 0:27:14.320 what pits pits the pit pits? Yeah, exactly, So he 0:27:14.440 --> 0:27:16.200 knew the people he was representing, but he. 0:27:16.160 --> 0:27:17.960 Was really absolutely attorney. 0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:20.360 Yeah my god, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, wow, Yeah, that's 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:20.960 so interesting. 0:27:21.080 --> 0:27:23.800 I mean I never in all of my research, I 0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:27.800 didn't ever hear him talk about any specific cases of 0:27:27.800 --> 0:27:30.800 people he got off because he thought they were innocent. 0:27:31.320 --> 0:27:33.320 But he spoke a lot about the fact that he says, 0:27:33.359 --> 0:27:35.159 you never ask your client whether they did it. 0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:35.960 Yeah. Okay. 0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:41.280 Now, thankfully for Andrew Fraser and undoubtedly many many people 0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:43.720 who surely would have gone on to become more victims 0:27:43.800 --> 0:27:46.440 of Dennis Allen, or at the very least have horrible 0:27:46.480 --> 0:27:50.080 dire interactions with him. Dennis Allen died in nineteen eighty 0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:53.920 seven at the age of thirty five. His heart gave 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:57.240 out almost certainly not helped by years of very heavy 0:27:57.320 --> 0:28:01.919 drug abuse, which per my re caused pieces of his 0:28:02.040 --> 0:28:03.720 heart to literally break away. 0:28:04.160 --> 0:28:05.800 Oh wow, he's heart broke, his. 0:28:05.880 --> 0:28:10.480 Heart broke heart failure because he was a piece of ship. Wow, 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:14.080 only thirty five thirty five? Now I can I just say, 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:15.600 I'm not saying his piece of ship because he did 0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:16.160 drugs hit. 0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:17.960 This man was a piece of yes, yeh, yeah, yeah, 0:28:17.960 --> 0:28:20.159 he sawed someone's legs off. I think you're hard to 0:28:20.200 --> 0:28:21.000 say that. Yeah. 0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:23.520 Andrew Fraser has said openly that he was very happy 0:28:23.560 --> 0:28:26.200 to see the back of mister death, but it wouldn't 0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:29.360 be the end of his relationship with Dennis Allen's family. 0:28:30.720 --> 0:28:32.840 More on that later, a lot of money coming to 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:33.399 that family. 0:28:35.600 --> 0:28:40.720 The second of Andrew Fraser's notorious, well known clients I'm 0:28:40.720 --> 0:28:42.720 going to talk about today is Lewis. 0:28:42.520 --> 0:28:45.520 Moran, the Moran family. 0:28:45.440 --> 0:28:48.520 One of the heads of the Carlton Crew, which you 0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:53.360 brought up earlier, so very brief I'm just mentioned, not 0:28:53.400 --> 0:28:59.320 even background. Melbourne had very very prominent underworld gangland wars 0:28:59.360 --> 0:29:04.440 in the eighties, nineties, early two thousands. It was essentially 0:29:04.520 --> 0:29:08.080 kind of two gangs ended up turning against each other. 0:29:08.800 --> 0:29:11.960 One person started working with one to make ecstasy pills, 0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:15.240 then went off on their own was shot in the stomach. 0:29:15.320 --> 0:29:18.280 This kicked off the whole thing. One of the gangs 0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:22.080 was called the Carlton Crew, and Lewis Moran was the patriarch, 0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:27.760 or one of the patriarchs of this crew. His fat 0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:29.400 This is just to kind of paint a bit of 0:29:29.400 --> 0:29:33.000 a picture as to his life in crime and how 0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:36.280 he got started. His father was a bookie in a 0:29:36.320 --> 0:29:40.640 local pub who always cooked the books, and his mother 0:29:40.880 --> 0:29:45.880 was a quote unquote nurse for a prominent illegal abortionist. 0:29:46.120 --> 0:29:49.520 Oh wow, it wasn't a great family. Moran was an 0:29:49.560 --> 0:29:52.959 all rounder as a crime figure. He was a skilled pickpocket, 0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:55.080 something he never quite gave up, even when he was 0:29:55.120 --> 0:29:58.560 making plenty of cash in other ways. He and his 0:29:58.600 --> 0:30:01.880 brother Tuppence were tough street fighters and were said to 0:30:01.960 --> 0:30:03.640 use guns only when necessary. 0:30:03.920 --> 0:30:06.000 And I think it's someone called Tuppen's I think tough. 0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:10.040 Well, yes it was his nickname, but I don't remember 0:30:10.080 --> 0:30:16.120 why the family was heavily involved in illegal book making, 0:30:16.360 --> 0:30:21.160 race fixing, and opportunistic receiving of stolen goods. Now, it 0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:25.640 was Lewis's son Jason and step soon Mark who moved 0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:29.080 the family into the lucrative business of drugs, the business 0:30:29.080 --> 0:30:31.920 that eventually cost both of them, or all of them, 0:30:31.960 --> 0:30:36.560 their lives. Lewis Moran, cunning and cautious, was always looking 0:30:36.560 --> 0:30:39.480 for an edge. He was looking for better legal advice 0:30:39.600 --> 0:30:43.080 and had heard about this guy called Andrew Fraser. He 0:30:43.160 --> 0:30:47.760 met Fraser through the respected barrister Phil Dunn at a 0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:49.640 lunch at the Flower Drum restaurant. 0:30:49.880 --> 0:30:51.640 Oh sure, quite a well known restaurant. 0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:54.240 In very well known. It actually won in a war. 0:30:54.360 --> 0:30:57.600 I think it won Restaurant of the Year, or that 0:30:57.800 --> 0:30:59.480 might be wrong, but I think it's right this year 0:30:59.520 --> 0:30:59.959 in twenty two. 0:31:00.240 --> 0:31:02.360 Really yeah, I've been around for a long time, a 0:31:02.440 --> 0:31:06.240 long time, and it's institution really prominent in. 0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:11.240 That era of you know, high flyers, whether they're underworld 0:31:11.480 --> 0:31:18.600 or above. So Moran asked Andrew Fraser for his card, 0:31:18.840 --> 0:31:23.120 and Fraser gave him a handful and with that gestures 0:31:24.440 --> 0:31:26.400 it is But he was like, this is my inn. 0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:29.400 This is les hand out as many as you want. 0:31:31.040 --> 0:31:34.320 With this gesture, his standing as the underworld's go to 0:31:34.480 --> 0:31:36.240 lawyer was consolidated. 0:31:36.280 --> 0:31:36.480 Wow. 0:31:37.800 --> 0:31:41.920 A quote from Andrew Fraser. I never charged Lewis assent 0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:46.880 because anything he sent me so many blokes, sorry, because 0:31:46.880 --> 0:31:49.040 he sent me so many blokes who did pay. 0:31:49.480 --> 0:31:49.720 Yeah. 0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:53.000 Sure, he would sometimes ask for a favor for a 0:31:53.040 --> 0:31:55.640 good bloke who'd got in trouble, but he would tell 0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:59.960 me which ones had plenty and to charge them accordingly. Right, right, 0:32:00.160 --> 0:32:03.680 So he knew Lewis brand. Yeah, he knew Louis Maron 0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:06.200 was such a big player in the underworld that he 0:32:06.320 --> 0:32:08.600 was like, I'm not going to charge you ever, mate, 0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:11.280 You're all good. Just give me some more work and 0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:13.160 Lewis will kind of work with him to go charge 0:32:13.160 --> 0:32:13.480 this one. 0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:14.600 Yeah right. 0:32:16.320 --> 0:32:20.560 Fraser trusted Moran a lot more than he certainly trusted 0:32:20.600 --> 0:32:25.160 but even liked, Dennis Allen. But business is business. Moran 0:32:25.240 --> 0:32:28.720 paid him by referring, referring a stream of clients. Allan 0:32:28.760 --> 0:32:30.640 had paid with an endless stream of cash. 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:34.880 Did you know if Andrew Fraser worked with a law 0:32:34.920 --> 0:32:37.000 firm or he was always out on his own? 0:32:38.400 --> 0:32:38.840 I don't know. 0:32:38.920 --> 0:32:43.560 Actually, yeah, work, you'd have to work by yourself, you couldn't. 0:32:43.760 --> 0:32:46.760 Yes, yeah, I'm thinking that, but I actually don't know. 0:32:46.880 --> 0:32:47.000 Ye. 0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:51.760 So, over these years representing many dodgy and discussing criminals, 0:32:52.000 --> 0:32:54.480 the underworld's favorite lawyer got into a bit of a 0:32:54.480 --> 0:32:57.800 habit himself. He broke one of the iron rules of 0:32:57.800 --> 0:33:01.320 old time criminals. Don't get high on your own supply. 0:33:01.880 --> 0:33:03.040 Oh sure, okay. 0:33:03.720 --> 0:33:08.160 Fraser started using cocaine after a biky gang leader tossed 0:33:08.200 --> 0:33:11.000 him a bag of the drug as a gift when 0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:13.400 Fraser was going away for a weekend to the Adelais 0:33:13.400 --> 0:33:15.640 Grand Prix in the late nineteen eighties. 0:33:16.040 --> 0:33:18.080 Thrown through the window of a passing trip. 0:33:18.080 --> 0:33:19.080 It may have been. 0:33:20.920 --> 0:33:21.080 Now. 0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:23.120 The reason I bring it up here is that Lewis 0:33:23.200 --> 0:33:26.320 Moran said from very early days that will get you 0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:28.720 into nothing but trouble, mate, stay. 0:33:28.440 --> 0:33:30.560 Out of it. Nice for him to warn him. 0:33:30.560 --> 0:33:34.600 Exactly if Louis Morando's any I was staying out of 0:33:34.600 --> 0:33:39.520 trouble now. This cocaine use, over time became less of 0:33:39.560 --> 0:33:43.040 a habit and more of a full blown addiction, a 0:33:43.120 --> 0:33:45.480 five thousand dollars a week addiction. 0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:47.160 Or less five thousand dollars a week. 0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:50.240 In a podcast with him that I listened to, he said, 0:33:50.320 --> 0:33:52.880 a cocaine addiction is God's way of telling you you've 0:33:52.880 --> 0:33:53.800 got too much money. 0:33:53.960 --> 0:33:55.520 Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. 0:33:56.000 --> 0:33:59.800 His addiction was a very poorly kept secret, but we'll 0:33:59.800 --> 0:34:05.320 get back to that. The third client I'm going to 0:34:05.360 --> 0:34:11.160 talk about today is Victor Pierce. While working with Slash 0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:16.440 representing Dennis Allen, Andrew Fraser became inextricably linked to the 0:34:16.480 --> 0:34:19.880 wider family. As I said before, Dennis Allen's mother was 0:34:19.960 --> 0:34:26.719 Cath petting Gil. Two of her other sons were notorious gangsters, 0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:31.640 Trevor Pettingill and Victor Pierce, so there were two of 0:34:31.680 --> 0:34:36.800 Dennis Allen's half brothers. After Dennis Allen died, Andrew Fraser 0:34:36.840 --> 0:34:39.759 wanted out of the petting Gill family, but that was 0:34:39.800 --> 0:34:42.359 a lot easier said than done. They saw him as 0:34:42.360 --> 0:34:45.960 being on the books, even owing them. One of his brothers, 0:34:46.040 --> 0:34:49.760 Victor Victor Pierce had been represented by Fraser years before 0:34:49.800 --> 0:34:53.800 and hadn't avoided conviction and was locked up for four years. 0:34:54.520 --> 0:34:57.200 He blamed Fraser, of course, he was his lawyer and 0:34:57.280 --> 0:34:59.840 he hated him. Wow. But the rest of the fa 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:03.560 family loved and trusted Andrew Fraser, so Victor Piers was 0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:06.680 willing to give the lawyer another go. Fraser essentially feeling 0:35:06.880 --> 0:35:09.600 threatened and backed into a corner to continue working with 0:35:09.640 --> 0:35:13.799 the family. Victor Pierce was not someone you wanted to cross, right. 0:35:14.480 --> 0:35:17.480 His family was the only reason that essentially he didn't 0:35:17.480 --> 0:35:20.319 go and shoot him up. Now that Dennis Allen was dead, 0:35:20.320 --> 0:35:21.960 he was like, well, what have you done for the 0:35:22.000 --> 0:35:24.320 rest of us? The family was going no, no, no. 0:35:24.640 --> 0:35:26.600 Kath Penning girl was going, no, mate, we trust him, 0:35:26.640 --> 0:35:27.640 let him represent you. 0:35:27.719 --> 0:35:29.920 Wow. And also if you're owing them some sort of 0:35:29.960 --> 0:35:34.239 favor or you're on their books as well, such a 0:35:34.280 --> 0:35:34.719 big thing. 0:35:35.040 --> 0:35:40.680 Absolutely. Now, Victor Piers was loathed and feared in equal measure. 0:35:41.040 --> 0:35:43.840 He was hot headed, he loved guns and was a 0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:47.040 very heavy drug user as well as a trafficker, but 0:35:47.440 --> 0:35:49.839 at this stage he was fairly low on the rung 0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:55.560 of Melbourne crime figures until now. I'm not going to 0:35:55.680 --> 0:35:58.680 go into this in super detail because I'm definitely going 0:35:58.719 --> 0:36:01.920 to do this story as its own episode, but the 0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:07.600 background is required to continue Andrew Fraser's story. Victor Pierce, 0:36:07.719 --> 0:36:11.800 his brother Trevor Pettingill, and Victor's best mate Graham Jensen 0:36:12.480 --> 0:36:15.560 were widely suspected of being part of a gang that 0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:18.879 was dubbed the Flemington Crew, a gang of violent armed 0:36:18.960 --> 0:36:22.320 robbers who carried out terrifying bank heists in full masks, 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:26.080 often shooting up the place but leaving little to no evidence. 0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:29.600 Police were sure they knew who the men were, and 0:36:29.640 --> 0:36:32.000 they were surveilling all of those that they suspected to 0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:34.960 be part of the gang when something happened that is 0:36:35.000 --> 0:36:38.520 widely believed to have sparked one of the most notorious 0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:44.120 crimes in Victorian and in fact Australian history. On October eleven, 0:36:44.239 --> 0:36:47.640 nineteen eighty eight, police were going to arrest Graham Jensen, 0:36:47.680 --> 0:36:50.439 so Victor Pierce's best mate. They were going to arrest 0:36:50.520 --> 0:36:52.560 him in connection with an armed robbery and a murder, 0:36:53.280 --> 0:36:55.520 a couple of murders going on in this group of people. 0:36:56.600 --> 0:36:59.520 But the ambush to arrest him was bungled by police. 0:37:00.360 --> 0:37:04.000 A chase ensued, during which Pollissa they saw Gentsen brandish 0:37:04.040 --> 0:37:08.440 a gun, and they shot him in retaliation. Victor Pierce's 0:37:08.440 --> 0:37:13.080 best friend had been shot dead by police. Thirteen hours later, 0:37:13.200 --> 0:37:15.680 at four thirty nine am on the twelfth of October, 0:37:16.600 --> 0:37:20.879 an abandoned Holden commodore parked on Walsh Street in South 0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:26.480 yarra was reported to Victoria Police. Two young officers, twenty 0:37:26.480 --> 0:37:29.759 two year old Stephen Tynan and twenty year old Damienare 0:37:30.520 --> 0:37:32.759 took the call and they went to see what this 0:37:32.840 --> 0:37:34.479 car was doing, dumped in the middle of a quiet 0:37:34.520 --> 0:37:38.439 street with its lights on and its doors open. When 0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:41.520 these two young constables got out of their car to 0:37:41.600 --> 0:37:44.640 go and investigate this car on Walsh Street, they were 0:37:44.640 --> 0:37:50.840 shot dead in cold blood. Oh wow, this was huge news. 0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:55.759 Two completely innocent young constables out doing their jobs, trying 0:37:55.800 --> 0:38:00.480 to protect the community, killed for no reason or of 0:38:00.520 --> 0:38:03.160 a war against police of which they didn't know they 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:07.239 were a part. I'm going to tell that full story. 0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:08.880 Yeah, that's fascinating. 0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:13.239 The suspects for the Wolsh Street killings were immediately identified 0:38:13.239 --> 0:38:17.439 by police as suspects as Victor Pierce, Trevor Petting Girl, 0:38:17.880 --> 0:38:22.440 Anthony Lee Farrell and Peter McAvoy. Now, getting evidence and 0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:25.000 landing charges would take police two and a half years, 0:38:25.239 --> 0:38:27.680 but they got there. All four of these men were 0:38:27.760 --> 0:38:32.040 charged with murder. Again, it was a huge story. Still today, 0:38:32.080 --> 0:38:35.040 you can say Wolsh Street to anyone in Australia and 0:38:35.080 --> 0:38:36.440 they know about that story. 0:38:37.160 --> 0:38:39.040 Except for me. I didn't know about that story, but like. 0:38:39.000 --> 0:38:41.680 You're not not know even the details, but you know 0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:47.480 two cops were shot down. Yeah, guess who they got 0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:48.640 to represent them? 0:38:49.080 --> 0:38:51.719 Ah, Julian Burnside. 0:38:51.800 --> 0:38:55.200 No it was Andrew Fraser. Yes, who this whole story 0:38:55.239 --> 0:39:01.520 is about. Andrew Fraser says it was a messy investigation 0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:04.720 by police from the start and the charges were rushed. 0:39:05.400 --> 0:39:09.840 He said that police. Yeah, wow, we'll go into that 0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:15.040 another time. Fraser said that police straightway identified who they 0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:18.759 believed were responsible and then went about building a case 0:39:18.800 --> 0:39:21.080 against them, which is the wrong way to do it. 0:39:22.760 --> 0:39:26.279 And he used that. Fraser used that in his defense. Again, 0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:30.320 I'll save all the details for another episode. But unbelievably, 0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:34.840 still to this day, all four men were acquitted of 0:39:34.920 --> 0:39:39.320 the Wall Street killings. They walked free, and Andrew Fraser 0:39:39.480 --> 0:39:47.520 was to thank police were in ray. In Fraser's own words, 0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:51.160 this is when he believed police, the police force first 0:39:51.320 --> 0:39:54.960 turned their sights onto taking him down, and as it 0:39:55.000 --> 0:39:59.760 turns out, it wouldn't be that hard. The next chapter 0:39:59.800 --> 0:40:02.400 of script here is called Fraser's Undoing. 0:40:02.719 --> 0:40:05.800 Oh my god, this is a chapter that I'm interested 0:40:05.800 --> 0:40:08.759 interested the whole time, but I'm very interested in this chapter. 0:40:09.360 --> 0:40:13.720 So Wall Street was in nineteen eighty eight. I left 0:40:13.719 --> 0:40:17.600 it to telling until last because kind of for the 0:40:17.600 --> 0:40:20.200 background on the families. But also that was the thing 0:40:20.239 --> 0:40:23.960 that really that's what a lot of people remember. Imagine 0:40:24.040 --> 0:40:26.319 Fraser was he the one that represented the Wall Street 0:40:26.360 --> 0:40:30.279 guys and got the wife and then so from being 0:40:30.360 --> 0:40:33.560 known as a lawyer doing that to then going on 0:40:33.600 --> 0:40:36.680 and representing people like Dennis Allen and Lewis Moran. The 0:40:36.760 --> 0:40:39.799 police fucking hated hated him. 0:40:39.840 --> 0:40:41.960 Do you know how long he kind of practiced law 0:40:42.040 --> 0:40:45.279 before he was to get a name like that. You 0:40:45.320 --> 0:40:47.880 imagine he was working for a long time. 0:40:47.840 --> 0:40:52.040 While yes, he was fifty at the age of his undoing. 0:40:52.239 --> 0:40:54.320 Yes, okay, right, all right, so he'd had a pretty 0:40:54.320 --> 0:40:55.280 big coreer. 0:40:55.360 --> 0:40:59.160 Well, I mean to be hired by the the Wolf 0:40:59.239 --> 0:41:04.000 Street Killers, he acquitted World Street Killers. 0:41:04.280 --> 0:41:05.080 And Paul Hogan. 0:41:05.680 --> 0:41:08.400 No, I don't think you represent his criminal case. You 0:41:08.480 --> 0:41:10.120 may have, but I did to brickon to that. 0:41:10.280 --> 0:41:11.800 And there's no reason I brought Paul Hogan, like to 0:41:11.800 --> 0:41:12.840 bring up you always do. 0:41:13.200 --> 0:41:16.360 You always do? Uh yeah, So, like he was prominent 0:41:16.440 --> 0:41:22.400 enough by then representing them. So as I said earlier, 0:41:22.600 --> 0:41:26.080 Lewis Moran had warned Fraser that doing drugs would be 0:41:26.160 --> 0:41:29.680 his undoing something the kg old crook feared for his 0:41:29.760 --> 0:41:32.920 own sons or his own son Jason Moran and his 0:41:32.960 --> 0:41:37.440 stepson Mark, which it was. They both fell victim to 0:41:37.480 --> 0:41:39.880 the underworld War of the nineties and early two thousands. 0:41:41.320 --> 0:41:44.359 Fraser said, I looked in the mirror one morning and 0:41:44.400 --> 0:41:47.800 admitted it to myself. You've got a habit, I told myself, 0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:50.239 and I decided to give it up then and there. 0:41:51.000 --> 0:41:54.640 I kept that promise right up until lunchtime. Oh my god, 0:41:54.920 --> 0:41:57.680 that's like a serious yeah addiction. 0:41:57.880 --> 0:42:00.760 Absolutely, And you should only ever look in the mirror 0:42:00.840 --> 0:42:02.359 and say, God, you look good. 0:42:03.680 --> 0:42:06.000 Yeah. I do think in this case it was maybe 0:42:06.120 --> 0:42:07.560 you know, I think it was fine for him to 0:42:07.640 --> 0:42:10.120 clock himself out, okay, Or were you saying that just 0:42:10.160 --> 0:42:11.160 to me specific to. 0:42:11.160 --> 0:42:13.600 You specifically in everyone listening. I think you should only 0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:16.040 ever look in the mirror and say, God, you look good, 0:42:16.440 --> 0:42:18.960 and wink if you want. If you want, yeah, you 0:42:18.960 --> 0:42:19.799 can add if you want. 0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:22.520 Our listeners are good, and God they look good. 0:42:22.719 --> 0:42:23.800 They look good as well. 0:42:25.360 --> 0:42:28.880 So apart from the damage to his reputation, his law practice, 0:42:29.080 --> 0:42:32.480 and his family life, phrases one thousand dollars a day 0:42:32.560 --> 0:42:33.960 cocaine Habit made him. 0:42:33.880 --> 0:42:36.760 Vulnerable thousands a day. 0:42:36.239 --> 0:42:39.560 Oh my god, that must be business days only because 0:42:39.560 --> 0:42:40.520 I said five. 0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:42.360 Year on the weekend. 0:42:46.600 --> 0:42:49.480 It also made him very vulnerable because it gave corrupt 0:42:49.560 --> 0:42:51.600 police something to threaten him with. 0:42:51.840 --> 0:42:52.080 Yeah. 0:42:52.160 --> 0:42:55.399 Sure, And as we know, and you can imagine from 0:42:55.400 --> 0:42:58.200 his role in many criminal cases that didn't go police 0:42:58.239 --> 0:43:03.400 this way, including Paul Hogan, but particularly exacerbated by his 0:43:03.480 --> 0:43:06.600 defense of the Wall Street four. To put it bluntly, 0:43:06.880 --> 0:43:09.560 they fucking hated the guy and everyone. 0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:12.359 I'm sorry that you just went with that and swore 0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:15.960 like that, I'm not, You're not. I'll say it again, don't. 0:43:16.120 --> 0:43:19.520 I said I would not that I will be careful 0:43:19.520 --> 0:43:21.720 what you do right now because there might be kids 0:43:21.760 --> 0:43:22.520 listening in the car. 0:43:22.719 --> 0:43:24.040 Oh my god, I hope there's not. 0:43:24.360 --> 0:43:25.799 Well, how do we know now? 0:43:26.000 --> 0:43:29.239 And you're about about legs being chopped off and oh. 0:43:29.200 --> 0:43:33.239 Okay, yeah dad, if you got, yeah, have take a 0:43:33.239 --> 0:43:35.279 good heart, look at yourself in the mirror and then 0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:36.399 say got you got? 0:43:36.440 --> 0:43:41.879 You look good? And Andrew Fraser hated police right back. 0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:45.319 He was and remained even all after all that's to 0:43:45.320 --> 0:43:50.480 come very vocal on police corruption, particularly in the drug Squad. 0:43:50.800 --> 0:43:56.160 Drug Squad of the eighties and nineties. Andrew Fraser's saucers 0:43:56.560 --> 0:43:56.960 now he. 0:43:57.000 --> 0:44:01.880 Is a git a brand, the Paul Newman exactly. 0:44:02.640 --> 0:44:07.000 Uh, he remained always he never ever ever threw anyone 0:44:07.080 --> 0:44:11.880 under the bus term he kept exactly even after his 0:44:11.920 --> 0:44:15.480 own downfall, he kept he never chucked anyone else in it, 0:44:16.239 --> 0:44:19.200 which is why I've written. Fraser's sources suggested he never 0:44:19.239 --> 0:44:21.080 said who told him any of this information? 0:44:21.440 --> 0:44:24.080 When you said that before? Did I say you bind? 0:44:24.200 --> 0:44:25.799 Yeah, you did say that you did it as if 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:31.560 it was like s a U see. But they suggested 0:44:31.560 --> 0:44:36.279 that rogue detectives were getting the precursor chemicals that were 0:44:36.440 --> 0:44:40.040 being made into ecstasy. They were getting them wholesale from 0:44:40.040 --> 0:44:45.840 a legitimate source, So you are orful you ask under 0:44:45.880 --> 0:44:50.000 the cover of an ongoing police sting operation. So police 0:44:50.040 --> 0:44:55.040 would get legitimate precursor drugs, saying they were doing a 0:44:55.080 --> 0:44:58.960 sting on operation. They would then take these products to 0:44:59.280 --> 0:45:02.960 known and to mean cooks and offer them the chemicals 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:05.839 on the basis that half of the finished speed as 0:45:05.920 --> 0:45:10.879 finished ecstasy, would be handed over to them as payment. Right, okay, right, 0:45:11.239 --> 0:45:13.799 And This thing worked well apart from the fact as 0:45:13.800 --> 0:45:17.279 it turned out that the dodgy police sold much, if 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:22.960 not most, of the drugs to street dealers. Sure, okay, 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:26.799 Andrew had a string of clients and contacts who told 0:45:26.840 --> 0:45:30.080 him police had robbed them, flogged them, and then arrested 0:45:30.080 --> 0:45:33.160 them as well. So they were doing this dodgy business 0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:35.120 and then still arresting them at the end of the day. 0:45:35.200 --> 0:45:35.399 Yeah. 0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:35.880 Right. 0:45:37.280 --> 0:45:40.120 Fraser didn't believe he could speak safely to anyone in 0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:43.880 the Victoria Police Force, so decided to contact the National 0:45:43.920 --> 0:45:46.120 Crime Authority as it then was, which is like the 0:45:46.800 --> 0:45:52.080 federal agency looking into police coruption. Ah okay, this is 0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:55.279 a quote from Fraser. A policeman I knew assured me 0:45:55.480 --> 0:45:58.160 that I could trust a particular guy in the National 0:45:58.160 --> 0:46:02.720 Crime Authority. He was wrong. The person I contacted called 0:46:02.800 --> 0:46:05.920 Strawhorn the same day and told him Fraser is onto you. 0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:06.399 Now. 0:46:06.480 --> 0:46:10.680 Strawhorn was the head of the armed drugs squad and 0:46:11.040 --> 0:46:14.000 arguably the most crooked of all of them, so he 0:46:14.120 --> 0:46:18.120 was told Frases onto you. And so Fraser says, in 0:46:18.160 --> 0:46:20.719 his own words, his decision to blow the whistle on 0:46:20.840 --> 0:46:23.880 corrupt state police blew up in his face. From that 0:46:24.000 --> 0:46:29.080 moment on, he was in big trouble. As Fraser sees it, 0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:34.040 Strawhorn's sinister influence over the drug squad immediately swung all 0:46:34.080 --> 0:46:39.480 of its resources against Andrew Fraser to neutralize the threat 0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:43.520 that he posed. A crooks are not dabbing on him. 0:46:43.640 --> 0:46:46.799 But if there's this criminal lawyer that hates us onto us, 0:46:47.200 --> 0:46:50.319 we're going to do something to take doubt. This is 0:46:50.320 --> 0:46:53.600 all Andrew Fraser's allegations. I mean, straw Horn has been 0:46:53.600 --> 0:47:01.319 done for corruption, but that's not the story. So Andrew says, 0:47:01.320 --> 0:47:04.200 as part of this like sting operations that were going 0:47:04.239 --> 0:47:08.040 back and forth, he says, rogue police broke into Jason 0:47:08.120 --> 0:47:12.720 Moran to Lewis's Moran's son's house to retrieve five thousand 0:47:12.760 --> 0:47:15.360 ecstasy pills that they had earlier planted. 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:16.400 On him five thousand. 0:47:18.160 --> 0:47:21.200 Now that the rogue police wanted to concentrate on nailing 0:47:21.200 --> 0:47:25.520 Moran's lawyer rather than Moran himself, they wanted the pills 0:47:25.560 --> 0:47:30.319 back as potential ammunition in what I'm calling the war 0:47:30.360 --> 0:47:36.440 against Andrew Fraser. So they'd put allegedly five thousand ecstasy 0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:38.520 pills in the Moran's place to do one of these 0:47:38.560 --> 0:47:42.520 dodgy sting operations. They went back there and retrieved the pills, 0:47:42.560 --> 0:47:44.319 not in a sting operation, so they could try to 0:47:44.400 --> 0:47:49.719 use them against Andrew Fraser. So but in the end, 0:47:50.160 --> 0:47:53.440 Strawhorn's crew didn't need the ecstasy pills to be planted 0:47:53.840 --> 0:47:57.799 in Andrew Fraser's possession as throwaways. Fraser did their work 0:47:57.880 --> 0:48:02.239 for them. Oh my god, been bugging him and in 0:48:02.320 --> 0:48:07.520 doing so, he was recorded in several compromising conversations, notably 0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:11.880 giving advice to a cocaine smuggler on how he could 0:48:11.920 --> 0:48:14.760 import five and a half kilos of the drug. 0:48:14.920 --> 0:48:18.359 Wow, giving advice. That's us. 0:48:20.920 --> 0:48:35.480 This was blood on his hands. Andrew Fraser was organizing, 0:48:35.680 --> 0:48:39.160 or at least helping plan and organize the importation of 0:48:39.200 --> 0:48:44.200 a commercial quantity of drugs. He was arrested in his 0:48:44.280 --> 0:48:47.319 home with full lights and sirens. And our version of 0:48:47.360 --> 0:48:51.880 the SWAT team like breaking into. 0:48:51.280 --> 0:48:53.319 Here of teams in Australia, do you. 0:48:53.640 --> 0:48:56.319 Well, we call them the songs. So the Special Operations 0:48:56.360 --> 0:49:01.040 Group is our version of the swash. SOGS is great 0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:04.760 because so it's for Special Operations Group. But the acronym 0:49:04.840 --> 0:49:08.720 is also like kind of colloquially called the Sons of God. 0:49:09.520 --> 0:49:10.919 So they're known as the sons of God. 0:49:11.480 --> 0:49:12.560 That's called the Sogs. 0:49:13.440 --> 0:49:16.719 Anyway, Andrew Fraser was not laughing about the acronym that night. 0:49:17.280 --> 0:49:21.400 That night he was charged. While as a lawyer, you 0:49:21.440 --> 0:49:23.839 would think that he would have fought the charger's tooth 0:49:23.880 --> 0:49:28.480 and nail, but no, Fraser could not and therefore did 0:49:28.520 --> 0:49:32.360 not argue his innocence. He pleaded guilty to traffic in 0:49:32.440 --> 0:49:35.440 cocaine and to helping a client import two point seven 0:49:35.560 --> 0:49:38.840 million dollars worth of the drug from West Africa. 0:49:39.120 --> 0:49:40.960 Oh my god, this was the early nineties. 0:49:41.160 --> 0:49:44.760 Was late eighties, nineteen ninety nine that he was charged. 0:49:44.800 --> 0:49:46.880 Oh yeah, sorry, I didn't say that anywhere. It was 0:49:46.960 --> 0:49:47.879 nineteen ninety nine. 0:49:47.960 --> 0:49:54.160 Yeah, wow, Okay, that's so much money. Yeah, so much drugs. 0:49:54.440 --> 0:49:59.879 Yeah, five and a half but Helos, Yeah he's here. 0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:02.680 He went to court in two thousand and one. Now 0:50:02.680 --> 0:50:05.960 obviously he was strunk off the law register. It was 0:50:06.200 --> 0:50:10.920 never yeah, unfortunately, Yeah, it's all that takes. Pleading guilty 0:50:10.960 --> 0:50:14.839 to importing five and a half killers of cocaine. He could 0:50:14.880 --> 0:50:17.520 no longer and would never be able to again work 0:50:17.560 --> 0:50:20.719 as a lawyer. But he had cooperated and he had 0:50:20.719 --> 0:50:24.000 pleaded guilty right at the start. This was always and 0:50:24.239 --> 0:50:27.719 is always sorry a strong mitigating factor in judges' findings 0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:32.759 and sentences. If someone pleads guilty, they save the state 0:50:32.800 --> 0:50:34.879 a lot of money from going through a trial, they 0:50:34.880 --> 0:50:38.239 have a lot of things, and also shows accountability and 0:50:38.360 --> 0:50:39.280 potentially remorse. 0:50:39.400 --> 0:50:40.040 Yeah. Sure. 0:50:41.000 --> 0:50:43.520 His lawyer had submitted to the court that his addiction 0:50:43.600 --> 0:50:46.360 should lessen his culpability and therefore lessen the severity of 0:50:46.360 --> 0:50:50.959 his sentence. His lawyer stated once he said this in court, 0:50:51.560 --> 0:50:53.920 once cocaine took hold of him, the mix of that 0:50:54.040 --> 0:50:58.960 poison and his own personality disorder was quite deadly, he said. 0:50:59.000 --> 0:51:02.760 Despite the charges, mister Fraser was an extremely decent human 0:51:02.800 --> 0:51:06.080 being who was involved in a wide range of community activities, 0:51:06.440 --> 0:51:09.160 and who keenly felt the impact and shame he had 0:51:09.200 --> 0:51:12.960 brought on his family. That Fraser's wife had endured comments 0:51:13.000 --> 0:51:16.440 in innuendo, while his parents, once so proud, now averted 0:51:16.480 --> 0:51:19.640 their eyes from neighbours, and his children were suffering gibes 0:51:19.719 --> 0:51:22.799 at the school. Now, whether or not any of this 0:51:22.880 --> 0:51:27.200 played into the judge's sentencing, we don't really know, but 0:51:27.960 --> 0:51:31.200 I want to add if police hated Fraser the way 0:51:31.239 --> 0:51:35.000 they did so too did a lot of the justice system. 0:51:35.480 --> 0:51:37.399 He was seen as the man who got the Wall 0:51:37.480 --> 0:51:42.239 Street killers off, and a lot of people so a 0:51:42.280 --> 0:51:44.920 lot of the industry thought he made a mockery of 0:51:44.960 --> 0:51:49.880 their justice system. But of course judges don't employ bias 0:51:50.160 --> 0:51:54.840 or personal gripes in sentencing by the letter of the law. 0:51:55.120 --> 0:51:57.800 In November two thousand and one, fifty year old Andrew 0:51:57.800 --> 0:52:03.520 Fraser was sentenced to seven years. Wow, it's funny that 0:52:03.560 --> 0:52:05.520 you say that's it, because then a lot of people 0:52:05.600 --> 0:52:09.200 also say seven years is a lot for a straight 0:52:09.280 --> 0:52:13.400 up guilty play, a one off trap like traffic. 0:52:14.520 --> 0:52:15.400 That's so much. 0:52:17.280 --> 0:52:18.880 Well, there I meet it. Somewhere in the middle of 0:52:18.880 --> 0:52:21.560 that is where the judge would have come to I suppose. 0:52:22.480 --> 0:52:27.360 And it wasn't going to be easy. Well, whether you 0:52:27.400 --> 0:52:29.920 think seven years is a lot or a little, it was. 0:52:30.280 --> 0:52:34.680 His minimum term was five years, so five years without 0:52:34.680 --> 0:52:37.520 a doubt behind bars, and a portion of that time 0:52:37.640 --> 0:52:41.680 was to be served in maximum security maximum security. So yeah, 0:52:41.719 --> 0:52:44.640 whether you think seven years is a lot or much, 0:52:45.080 --> 0:52:47.440 that to me seems wild. 0:52:47.640 --> 0:52:50.000 Yeah, to be maximum security for something that would. 0:52:49.760 --> 0:52:55.160 Be murderers and rapists and like huge, big crime gang. 0:52:55.360 --> 0:52:57.479 Lords yeah to Paz. 0:52:58.200 --> 0:52:59.879 Correct, we're getting there. 0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:02.680 Okay, sorry, sorry. 0:53:03.080 --> 0:53:05.360 So, yeah, I just think that's wild. The unit that 0:53:05.400 --> 0:53:09.680 he was housed in in Port Philip Prison was he 0:53:09.760 --> 0:53:12.600 was housed with thirty eight of the most dangerous criminals 0:53:12.600 --> 0:53:14.960 in Victoria. So there were only thirty nine people in 0:53:15.000 --> 0:53:16.680 that whole unit and he was one of them. 0:53:17.000 --> 0:53:18.879 Was that because of the police they didn't like him? 0:53:19.000 --> 0:53:21.280 Was that kind of wow? They were? Yeah? 0:53:21.360 --> 0:53:26.360 Perhaps, who know? Perhaps he didn't have an avenue for 0:53:26.640 --> 0:53:29.600 appeal either. He had pleaded guilty, so he didn't have 0:53:29.640 --> 0:53:34.319 an avenue to appeal his conviction. He could have he 0:53:34.320 --> 0:53:40.120 could have appealed his sentence, but it was there is 0:53:40.160 --> 0:53:41.839 always a risk that they can turn around and give 0:53:41.880 --> 0:53:42.440 you more. 0:53:42.480 --> 0:53:43.720 If you do that, Okay. 0:53:44.000 --> 0:53:47.120 So he was kind of sitting waiting, wishing for something 0:53:47.160 --> 0:53:49.560 to happen, and waiting on the sidelines and kind of 0:53:49.640 --> 0:53:52.000 keeping up with what was happening in the outside world. 0:53:52.760 --> 0:53:56.120 And on March seventeen, two thousand and three, which is 0:53:56.200 --> 0:53:57.240 Saint Patrick's. 0:53:56.920 --> 0:54:00.240 Day, Oh good, okay, good, yeah, correction. 0:54:00.600 --> 0:54:04.839 The deputy chief of the Victorian Police drug Squad, Wayne Strawhorn, 0:54:05.160 --> 0:54:11.719 remember that name. He was arrested for trafficking a commercial 0:54:11.800 --> 0:54:17.160 quantity of pure pseudoeffridron two none less than Gangland figure 0:54:17.320 --> 0:54:22.400 Mark Bran was Moran's son, so the head of the 0:54:22.480 --> 0:54:25.800 drug squad who had had it in for Andrew Fraser, 0:54:26.400 --> 0:54:28.800 was then arrested himself on these charges. 0:54:29.000 --> 0:54:31.239 And pseudo effidron is quite an odd thing to be 0:54:31.440 --> 0:54:32.720 so that's as. 0:54:32.560 --> 0:54:36.160 I was saying earlier about the precursor to like ecstasy 0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:39.200 and speed, that's the precursor that were getting. So like 0:54:39.280 --> 0:54:41.880 when you go, this might not be thing for international listeners, 0:54:41.880 --> 0:54:45.200 but in Australia certainly if you want the cold, like 0:54:45.239 --> 0:54:47.960 the good cold and flu tablets from the pharmacy that 0:54:48.040 --> 0:54:49.359 have pseudoefron in them. 0:54:49.280 --> 0:54:51.600 You have to say behind the counter police. 0:54:51.160 --> 0:54:53.120 That's right, and that's why you have to give your ID. 0:54:53.840 --> 0:54:57.399 So they are logging who's buying pseudoeprodrone, so people can't 0:54:57.400 --> 0:55:00.279 be buying heaps because that is part of one of 0:55:00.320 --> 0:55:01.640 the illicit drugs. 0:55:01.640 --> 0:55:01.960 Sure. 0:55:04.160 --> 0:55:06.640 And also by this time Mark Moran, who he had 0:55:06.680 --> 0:55:10.360 supplied the drugs to, had been murdered himself, so he, 0:55:10.480 --> 0:55:14.120 his brother Jason, and his father Lewis would eventually be 0:55:14.440 --> 0:55:18.239 killed in Melbourne's a gangland war and as I said, 0:55:18.239 --> 0:55:21.800 Sewan had been the one behind Fraser's arrest. So Fraser 0:55:21.840 --> 0:55:27.400 thought bingo. He launched an appeal based on the fact 0:55:27.440 --> 0:55:30.719 that the cops that took him down wire crooked, and 0:55:30.760 --> 0:55:33.640 he was granted a hearing. So when you launch an appeal, 0:55:33.800 --> 0:55:35.360 you put in the paperwork saying this is why I 0:55:35.360 --> 0:55:37.680 want to appeal. The appeals court can either say yes 0:55:37.760 --> 0:55:39.680 or no to that. If they say yes to that, 0:55:39.760 --> 0:55:42.480 they allow the hearing where all the evidence is presented. 0:55:42.960 --> 0:55:45.800 This is why I think my conviction should be quashed, 0:55:45.840 --> 0:55:48.880 my sentence should be changed, any of the above. So 0:55:48.960 --> 0:55:52.120 he was granted a hearing and he and his lawyers 0:55:52.160 --> 0:55:55.440 were absolutely convinced he would win, like this is this 0:55:55.520 --> 0:55:58.160 is absolutely you know, knock out of the park. The 0:55:58.160 --> 0:56:02.279 squad who took him down for traffic themselves all in 0:56:02.320 --> 0:56:03.600 custody for trafficking. 0:56:03.760 --> 0:56:04.280 Wow. 0:56:06.680 --> 0:56:10.000 So the judge heard all the appeal evidence and denied 0:56:10.040 --> 0:56:14.040 an appeal. Really, Phraser would be spending at the very 0:56:14.200 --> 0:56:16.120 very least five years. 0:56:15.800 --> 0:56:19.239 In prison from when he was first Yes, yep, So. 0:56:19.320 --> 0:56:21.279 There was no chance he was going to get out 0:56:21.320 --> 0:56:25.799 earlier than the five years. At the very earliest. There 0:56:25.840 --> 0:56:27.560 wasn't much more for him to do but kill time. 0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:31.480 He couldn't practice law obviously, he didn't know what the 0:56:31.480 --> 0:56:33.760 future held for him, and he had no more avenues 0:56:33.760 --> 0:56:35.560 of appeal to study up on. That had kind of 0:56:35.680 --> 0:56:39.200 kept him quite busy looking, you know, doing his own 0:56:39.239 --> 0:56:41.600 kind of law legal stuff to be to be able 0:56:41.600 --> 0:56:44.200 to help himself. So he just kind of lived with 0:56:44.239 --> 0:56:45.960 what he'd done and tried to take the time to 0:56:46.080 --> 0:56:51.440 change and get fit time. Yes, I'll tell you at 0:56:51.480 --> 0:56:54.399 the end that's not the name after shows, but I'm 0:56:54.400 --> 0:56:54.840 not going. 0:56:54.719 --> 0:56:57.200 To tell you quarter back now. 0:56:58.000 --> 0:57:01.240 So he wanted to what he wanted to do most 0:57:01.880 --> 0:57:04.640 is just avoid the unsavory types that he was housed 0:57:04.640 --> 0:57:07.840 with in this Union Obscurity Unit. One of the most 0:57:07.880 --> 0:57:11.680 infamous unsavory types that he was housed with was a 0:57:11.719 --> 0:57:15.840 man named Peter Norris du Pass. He was in prison 0:57:15.960 --> 0:57:19.120 at the time for the gruesome, violent, heinous murders of 0:57:19.160 --> 0:57:23.080 two women, Margaret Maher and Nicole Patterson. And at this point, 0:57:23.120 --> 0:57:25.360 dear listeners, if you have not listened to our full 0:57:25.440 --> 0:57:28.160 episode on Peter du Pass, I would recommend to going 0:57:28.200 --> 0:57:31.200 back and doing so you can get to the end 0:57:31.200 --> 0:57:32.960 of this. If you want, but there are some spoilers 0:57:33.000 --> 0:57:36.680 for that episode. There are also was for this episode 0:57:36.680 --> 0:57:38.880 in that so we decide which turned him on a 0:57:38.880 --> 0:57:41.320 spoil if you hear, maybe just stick around then go back. 0:57:42.640 --> 0:57:45.800 Peter du Pass was very publicly believed to be guilty 0:57:45.840 --> 0:57:48.800 of at least one more murder than these two, and 0:57:48.840 --> 0:57:51.400 that murdering particular, was that of twenty five year old 0:57:51.440 --> 0:57:54.560 Messina hal Vargas, who had been brutally murdered while tending 0:57:54.600 --> 0:57:57.800 to her grandmother's grave at Faulkner Cemetery in Melbourne in 0:57:57.880 --> 0:58:03.360 nineteen ninety seven. Wasn't enough evidence still, du Pass was 0:58:03.360 --> 0:58:06.240 in maximum security for life, never to be released. He 0:58:06.280 --> 0:58:09.840 was on two life sentences with no minimum tim But 0:58:10.080 --> 0:58:13.120 in two thousand and six an inquest was ordered into 0:58:13.160 --> 0:58:19.000 her death, which really was the police's way of being 0:58:19.000 --> 0:58:20.560 able to prove that it was due Pass. They had 0:58:20.560 --> 0:58:24.000 no other suspects, all signs pointed to him. Taking it 0:58:24.040 --> 0:58:27.240 to a coronial inquest essentially was so they could work 0:58:27.280 --> 0:58:31.840 out whether they could gather enough evidence to charge him. 0:58:32.200 --> 0:58:37.920 In gathering their evidence, and Andrew Fraser had been in 0:58:38.080 --> 0:58:40.080 So this is two thousand and six. Andrew Fraser had 0:58:40.120 --> 0:58:44.040 been in jail for very nearly five years. At this point, 0:58:44.600 --> 0:58:47.640 in gathering their evidence, police wondered if the serial killer 0:58:47.760 --> 0:58:50.400 du Pass could have made friends on the inside and 0:58:50.440 --> 0:58:52.640 maybe may have opened up to them. He was there 0:58:52.640 --> 0:58:54.280 in life, there may not have been much else to 0:58:54.320 --> 0:58:56.200 talk about. Sure, you also don't know if people like 0:58:56.240 --> 0:58:59.880 that brag to others. I'm the kind of bigger criminal. 0:58:59.640 --> 0:59:01.760 Than you your killer as well, you think maybe they 0:59:01.800 --> 0:59:02.480 are bragging. 0:59:03.080 --> 0:59:06.240 So police booked up picked up the phone to Fulham Prison, 0:59:06.360 --> 0:59:10.000 which at this time was a lesser security facility where 0:59:10.000 --> 0:59:12.439 Andrew Fraser had finally been moved to. He did over 0:59:12.480 --> 0:59:16.120 three years in maximum security and then was moved to Fulham. 0:59:16.400 --> 0:59:18.800 Police asked to speak to the lawyer that they had 0:59:18.840 --> 0:59:19.600 put in prison. 0:59:19.840 --> 0:59:20.080 Wow. 0:59:21.200 --> 0:59:24.280 When police told him they wanted to ask about Peter Dupas, 0:59:24.520 --> 0:59:27.720 Fraser said, I wondered when you'd call Wow. 0:59:29.000 --> 0:59:31.040 It's wild that he didn't go straight away, And. 0:59:31.120 --> 0:59:34.200 I'll get into that. Also he fucking hated police. 0:59:34.320 --> 0:59:35.360 Yeah, that's true. 0:59:35.280 --> 0:59:37.080 Yeah, I'll go into it. 0:59:37.200 --> 0:59:39.360 Why Yeah, Yeah, do you think as a lawyer you 0:59:39.360 --> 0:59:41.520 would probably know that maybe you'd get some sort of 0:59:41.600 --> 0:59:42.360 leniency if. 0:59:42.280 --> 0:59:46.280 You Yeah, but also think about where he is and 0:59:46.320 --> 0:59:49.880 what people in prisons due to so called dogs. 0:59:50.520 --> 0:59:53.520 Yeah, goddamn dogs and pigs and rats. 0:59:53.640 --> 0:59:54.920 Pigs are what they call the police. 0:59:55.000 --> 0:59:56.360 Y's what they call the police. 0:59:56.160 --> 0:59:58.920 And they would do that to them too, I guess, so, 0:59:59.080 --> 1:00:02.240 Fraser said while house together at Port Phillip Prison. In 1:00:02.280 --> 1:00:04.600 a very unexpected turn for no one more so than 1:00:04.640 --> 1:00:08.280 Andrew Fraser himself, Juwpass really warmed to him and he 1:00:08.320 --> 1:00:12.760 didn't talk to anyone. Jupas had become an accomplished gardener 1:00:12.800 --> 1:00:16.240 and tended to the jail vegetable patch. Fraser, who'd been 1:00:16.280 --> 1:00:19.320 an athlete at school, was determined to regain his former 1:00:19.360 --> 1:00:23.560 fitness after you know, really spiraling and becoming a cocaine addict. 1:00:23.760 --> 1:00:25.720 He was like, right, while I'm here, I'll get fit, 1:00:25.800 --> 1:00:29.120 I'll get healthy again. So he would run and train 1:00:29.200 --> 1:00:33.520 outdoors daily. Jupas started to walk with him and would 1:00:33.520 --> 1:00:35.560 start to ask questions about the law. He was really 1:00:35.640 --> 1:00:37.960 intrigued by the law, which I suppose you would be 1:00:38.160 --> 1:00:40.360 if that was what your whole life kind of came 1:00:40.400 --> 1:00:42.040 down to. That the law put you behind us. 1:00:42.040 --> 1:00:43.800 You got nothing else do? You may have asked some questions? 1:00:43.920 --> 1:00:45.800 Yeah, Also, the Lord didn't put him behind bus his 1:00:45.920 --> 1:00:47.320 murderous rages did. 1:00:47.400 --> 1:00:49.160 Yeah, Lord doesn't kill people. People kill people. 1:00:49.560 --> 1:00:54.840 That's exactly what I always that hay fever today. So 1:00:55.240 --> 1:00:57.680 if I'm sniffing, I really do apologize. 1:00:57.960 --> 1:00:59.400 Sore. You're talking too much about cocaine. 1:00:59.760 --> 1:01:06.880 Yeah, phantom cocaine symptoms. And over time he started to 1:01:07.200 --> 1:01:10.320 kind of treat Fraser as like his own private counsel. 1:01:10.640 --> 1:01:12.600 I would start to open up to him a little bit, 1:01:12.720 --> 1:01:17.560 ask him lots of questions that sounded like they were pointed. Yeah, sure, 1:01:18.240 --> 1:01:21.000 And eventually he began to talk about Messina hal Vargas. 1:01:22.240 --> 1:01:25.400 Fraser told police that he had once found a homemade 1:01:25.480 --> 1:01:30.360 knife like a shive, concealed among weeds at the prison, 1:01:30.600 --> 1:01:34.320 and Dupas walked over and picked it up and inspected it, 1:01:35.200 --> 1:01:39.640 which is when the confession, according to Fraser, occurred. So 1:01:39.720 --> 1:01:41.920 this is this is now a quote from Andrew Fraser. 1:01:42.560 --> 1:01:45.640 We regularly used to find stuff hidden in the garden, drugs, 1:01:45.720 --> 1:01:48.760 weapons and other stuff. I once found a homemade knife 1:01:49.160 --> 1:01:52.960 and Juwpass came over. I called you passover to show 1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:55.320 it to him. He took it off me and started 1:01:55.320 --> 1:01:59.120 handling it, almost caressing it in a sexual way to 1:01:59.240 --> 1:02:04.040 pass then started arted saying Mersina, Mersina, Mersina, with a 1:02:04.040 --> 1:02:06.960 strange look on his face. I was certainly left in 1:02:07.040 --> 1:02:12.520 no doubt that Dupass murdered Messina. Quote continues. This wasn't 1:02:12.520 --> 1:02:15.120 some sort of Geilhouse confession where someone has gone in 1:02:15.160 --> 1:02:16.960 and sat inessell one night and had a brew with 1:02:16.960 --> 1:02:20.120 another prisoner and somebody has allegedly said something. It's a 1:02:20.160 --> 1:02:23.960 lot stronger than that. Dupas and I spoke regularly, just 1:02:24.040 --> 1:02:26.400 the two of us. This was over months and months, 1:02:26.440 --> 1:02:28.440 and he was talking to me and confiding in me. 1:02:29.080 --> 1:02:31.400 There was one occasion when another prisoner came up to 1:02:31.520 --> 1:02:34.400 us and when we when we were gardening, and started 1:02:34.440 --> 1:02:37.720 abusing Dupass. The prisoner was yelling at du Pass saying 1:02:37.880 --> 1:02:41.240 you killed Mersina. I know you killed Mersina. After the 1:02:41.280 --> 1:02:44.000 other prisoner had gone, Dupass turned to me and said, 1:02:44.360 --> 1:02:46.680 how does that c U and T No, I did 1:02:46.680 --> 1:02:50.959 it in end of phrases quote. 1:02:50.760 --> 1:02:53.800 I remember that from the picture Pass episode. That was Yeah, 1:02:53.840 --> 1:02:55.800 that was the way that he got him. 1:02:55.960 --> 1:02:58.160 Yeah, yes, it's overtime. He was asking us of things. 1:02:58.200 --> 1:03:02.400 He never said I did it kind of this is 1:03:02.400 --> 1:03:04.720 what I did from what I know. But yeah, it 1:03:04.960 --> 1:03:10.200 started with him caressing this knife, saying messina, messina, messineen. Yes, 1:03:10.520 --> 1:03:12.160 and and a phrase I think I got into this 1:03:12.240 --> 1:03:15.760 as well, says he was terrified of Peter duo Pass. 1:03:15.840 --> 1:03:19.680 There was there was nothing kind of endearing about him 1:03:19.720 --> 1:03:22.080 at all. He was like a horrible, terrifying man. 1:03:22.320 --> 1:03:23.040 Yeah, okay. 1:03:23.960 --> 1:03:26.040 I think the fact that he kind of confided in 1:03:26.120 --> 1:03:29.480 him and treated him like his lawyer, Fraser felt a 1:03:29.480 --> 1:03:32.200 bit safer because he kind of confided in and trusted him. 1:03:32.240 --> 1:03:35.240 So he would talk to him, but he would not 1:03:35.280 --> 1:03:37.440 go out of his way to do so, but he 1:03:37.480 --> 1:03:39.360 would talk back to him because he thought, that's not 1:03:39.440 --> 1:03:42.160 someone I want to be on their bad side. 1:03:42.480 --> 1:03:44.600 And also, you know, both in maximum security. I guess 1:03:44.640 --> 1:03:45.800 a lot of the time you kind of go, oh, 1:03:45.800 --> 1:03:47.479 they're not going to rat on me because we're both 1:03:47.480 --> 1:03:51.200 in security. I guess they were just both killing time. 1:03:51.880 --> 1:03:53.720 Very clever. It's almost like you came up with it. 1:03:53.960 --> 1:04:00.480 So Fraser told all of this two police. He had 1:04:00.520 --> 1:04:04.320 said nothing before. They weren't exactly mates. Andrew Fraser and 1:04:04.320 --> 1:04:06.959 the police he didn't trust them, and they certainly didn't 1:04:06.960 --> 1:04:10.360 trust him until they called. They said, would you be 1:04:10.400 --> 1:04:12.920 willing to get up on the stand and testify against 1:04:12.920 --> 1:04:16.480 Peter Dupatz, and he said, under no circumstances while I 1:04:16.520 --> 1:04:19.800 am in jail, no I will be killed without a doubt. 1:04:19.880 --> 1:04:22.200 There is no way. I know how the law works. 1:04:22.560 --> 1:04:25.080 I'm coming close to the end of my minimum parole sentence. 1:04:25.120 --> 1:04:30.160 At least you get me out of here and I'll testify. 1:04:30.320 --> 1:04:33.000 He's also terrified of him as well, like going back 1:04:33.040 --> 1:04:33.680 to prison and. 1:04:33.680 --> 1:04:36.400 Just being of him, but then of also everyone else 1:04:36.440 --> 1:04:38.840 because they find out there's a rat in there, like 1:04:38.880 --> 1:04:41.400 he wouldn't survive as we've seen this one example of 1:04:41.480 --> 1:04:44.160 there's been he's found a hidden knife. 1:04:43.960 --> 1:04:46.040 At some point in that petting zoo. 1:04:46.120 --> 1:04:48.640 So he said, absolutely no way I'm going back to 1:04:48.680 --> 1:04:51.640 that prison. You've got absolutely nothing from me unless you 1:04:51.680 --> 1:04:54.880 get me out of here. So in September two thousand 1:04:54.920 --> 1:04:58.120 and six, Andrew Fraser, fifty five years old, were very 1:04:58.200 --> 1:05:02.720 quietly freed from full in prison two months before he's 1:05:02.760 --> 1:05:06.560 listed earliest release date. Now, when it gets to the 1:05:06.600 --> 1:05:08.400 end of your minimum sentence, and when it got to 1:05:08.440 --> 1:05:10.760 the five years for him, you have to apply to 1:05:10.800 --> 1:05:13.840 the parole board and then they may grant you. Sure, 1:05:14.000 --> 1:05:15.760 So it's not a given that he would have got 1:05:15.760 --> 1:05:19.040 out then anyway, But it is also pretty wild that 1:05:19.080 --> 1:05:22.080 he was sitting on this information as someone who knows 1:05:22.120 --> 1:05:25.440 the law, understands the law, and wanted desperately to be 1:05:25.480 --> 1:05:27.400 out of there. He still didn't come forward with it 1:05:27.400 --> 1:05:29.640 because that you just don't do that in prison, You 1:05:29.760 --> 1:05:32.080 just don't do that. He was terrified for his life. 1:05:33.800 --> 1:05:37.240 He had agreed to give sworn evidence against Dupass. He 1:05:37.320 --> 1:05:40.160 was taken out quietly for his own safety. If they 1:05:40.200 --> 1:05:42.800 saw him getting out, any word gone out that he 1:05:42.880 --> 1:05:46.400 was getting released, there was no way he would have 1:05:47.320 --> 1:05:49.560 just you do not dog on former crooks, no matter 1:05:49.600 --> 1:05:52.040 how violent to prave they are. You just don't do that. 1:05:52.080 --> 1:05:54.160 And he worked with crooks a lot, so we would not. 1:05:54.280 --> 1:05:55.919 Well, I think that's all part of it as well. 1:05:56.320 --> 1:05:59.560 You know. He wasn't just some suit wearing lawyer who 1:05:59.600 --> 1:06:00.840 was kind of going, oh, I don't want to be 1:06:00.840 --> 1:06:03.400 in here, maybe I'll use my legal smarts. He knew 1:06:03.520 --> 1:06:06.200 some of the worst of the worst of crime in Victoria, 1:06:06.240 --> 1:06:10.000 as he knew what they did to each other. Within 1:06:10.120 --> 1:06:13.680 hours of Fraser's release, detectives traveled to Port Philip Prison 1:06:13.720 --> 1:06:17.600 and charged Peter du Pass with his third murder. They 1:06:17.640 --> 1:06:20.640 discovered that Dupass tried to recruit Fraser as his unpaid 1:06:20.720 --> 1:06:23.680 legal advisor when they were in the unit together at 1:06:23.720 --> 1:06:26.840 Port Fillm Prison, So he'd actually kind of said to him, 1:06:27.400 --> 1:06:30.320 I want you to work as my solicitor. Wow, like 1:06:30.800 --> 1:06:34.440 I want you to give me advice as a lawyer would. Now, 1:06:34.440 --> 1:06:37.040 if Fraser had been Dupass's lawyer, he would not have 1:06:37.080 --> 1:06:40.920 been legally allowed to give any evidence because any information 1:06:40.920 --> 1:06:45.000 would have remained privileged and confidential. But given he was 1:06:45.080 --> 1:06:50.000 convicted criminal, he had been disbarred from the legal I 1:06:50.040 --> 1:06:52.280 meant that none of the conversations between the pair could 1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:55.720 be considered privileged. Fraser was nothing more than a fellow 1:06:55.720 --> 1:06:58.120 inate listening to du Pass yapping. 1:06:58.600 --> 1:07:00.320 Oh that's great. Yeah. 1:07:02.080 --> 1:07:05.560 In du Pass's murder trial, Andrew Fraser was the key 1:07:05.760 --> 1:07:09.160 star prosecution witness, which the irony. 1:07:09.480 --> 1:07:10.600 Yeah. 1:07:10.680 --> 1:07:14.800 Like I feel like the members of Victoria Police who 1:07:14.800 --> 1:07:17.000 were kind of using him for that, I wonder what 1:07:17.240 --> 1:07:22.160 the guilt levels or like maybe not even guilt, but like. 1:07:22.800 --> 1:07:25.959 This is but I guess yeah, they would have hated 1:07:26.000 --> 1:07:27.880 him so much then. 1:07:27.800 --> 1:07:31.200 To be like to be like, oh, really that's the 1:07:31.200 --> 1:07:38.520 person we've got to use. Yeah, he gave very over 1:07:38.560 --> 1:07:42.480 the top dramatic evidence, as was always his style in court. 1:07:42.600 --> 1:07:44.840 It was just that this was the first time about 1:07:44.880 --> 1:07:48.000 the witness box he did. At one point he was 1:07:48.200 --> 1:07:51.960 asked to he said that Dupass had done a pantomime 1:07:52.240 --> 1:07:55.680 type action with a knife or that pretending to have 1:07:55.720 --> 1:07:58.200 a knife, and he actually said to the judge, may 1:07:58.240 --> 1:07:59.760 I step out of the witness box. 1:07:59.560 --> 1:08:02.320 And shine behind you. 1:08:04.200 --> 1:08:07.440 I was about to say, not audience, jury, but he 1:08:07.480 --> 1:08:10.760 actually like walked in front of the jury box and 1:08:11.000 --> 1:08:13.920 was like had his arms up as if he was 1:08:13.960 --> 1:08:16.720 holding a knife and was doing stabbing motions, massive like 1:08:16.760 --> 1:08:19.960 this yelling out Messina's name, to which like this is 1:08:20.000 --> 1:08:22.400 in front of the full court. Messina's parents are they're 1:08:22.600 --> 1:08:26.440 they're sobbing, they're weeping. The jury was like shocked and appalled. 1:08:26.840 --> 1:08:30.200 But I think it did have a really big impact, 1:08:30.760 --> 1:08:34.160 and it seems like a really crazy, depraved thing to 1:08:34.240 --> 1:08:36.960 do if that's not actually what he wasn't actually re 1:08:37.080 --> 1:08:39.720 enacting it. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, he was always big 1:08:39.760 --> 1:08:41.719 and over the top and dramatic in court as a lawyer. 1:08:41.840 --> 1:08:43.200 Now he was being that as a witness. 1:08:43.560 --> 1:08:45.040 My god, it's so funny, is both you thought I 1:08:45.040 --> 1:08:47.360 was sociowbies that I call the jury my audience. 1:08:47.000 --> 1:08:51.120 My audience. Yeah, like all all world, my audience. So 1:08:51.280 --> 1:08:54.479 Fraser said in the witness box that Dupatz confessed telling 1:08:54.520 --> 1:08:56.280 him no one would know he did it because he 1:08:56.360 --> 1:09:00.160 left no forensic evidence behind. Now, from what I've read 1:09:00.200 --> 1:09:03.960 and understood, he never actually referred to it, like he 1:09:04.040 --> 1:09:06.040 never said no one will know I killed Mersina? How 1:09:06.160 --> 1:09:09.960 far he spoke about the thing at. 1:09:09.840 --> 1:09:11.960 Faulkner, Sure, okay. 1:09:12.120 --> 1:09:14.439 And one of the things was Fraser was asking him 1:09:14.439 --> 1:09:20.040 one day about so Peter du pass was going to 1:09:20.160 --> 1:09:21.920 him when I said, he was kind of using him 1:09:22.000 --> 1:09:24.760 as his counsel. He was going to him with all 1:09:25.160 --> 1:09:28.960 their evidence, documents and sentencings and everything from Margaret mar 1:09:29.160 --> 1:09:32.240 and Nicole Patterson's murders, and kind of saying to Fraser like, 1:09:32.320 --> 1:09:35.439 what can we do with this? Can we appeal? And 1:09:35.520 --> 1:09:40.680 in talking about one of those who Pass said they 1:09:40.720 --> 1:09:44.720 won't know about Faulkner or something about okay, right, no, 1:09:44.760 --> 1:09:49.400 not in Fulkner, and Fraser went, Faulkner, she was killed 1:09:49.400 --> 1:09:52.120 in Preston and he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, Preston. And 1:09:52.160 --> 1:09:53.679 so then Andrew Fraser went and looked. 1:09:53.479 --> 1:09:55.800 Into him oh wow, okay, so when you were a 1:09:55.800 --> 1:09:56.800 bit about it already. 1:09:56.640 --> 1:09:59.439 Yes, yep. He spoke about the time he found du 1:09:59.479 --> 1:10:01.519 Pass Kradle the knife. So this is all in the 1:10:01.560 --> 1:10:04.280 witness box. Whispering was in his name, and while he 1:10:04.360 --> 1:10:08.000 stated he was absolutely terrified, he did carefully probe for more. 1:10:08.680 --> 1:10:11.640 He said that the thing about a du Pass with 1:10:11.640 --> 1:10:14.479 the stabbing motions, and Fraser got up and did this 1:10:14.520 --> 1:10:19.120 in court, as I just said. Dupass's defense lawyer trying 1:10:19.160 --> 1:10:22.519 to argue that Fraser's whole story was a lie in 1:10:22.600 --> 1:10:26.559 order to win attention, to redeem himself, and primarily to 1:10:26.800 --> 1:10:29.320 provide material for a novel he was writing about his 1:10:29.439 --> 1:10:32.479 jail experiences, which, by the way, he did. 1:10:32.280 --> 1:10:36.480 Write for Killing Time no called Court. 1:10:36.280 --> 1:10:38.160 In the middle spelled coure. 1:10:42.040 --> 1:10:43.680 It plays that when you open the book. 1:10:43.560 --> 1:10:48.120 Exactly, it's like those birthday cards that beautiful, beautiful. Yeah. 1:10:48.160 --> 1:10:50.680 So the defense lawyer said, this guy has been a 1:10:50.760 --> 1:10:53.160 show pony as long as we've known him. He wants 1:10:53.200 --> 1:10:55.639 his time back in the media. He wants to redeem himself. 1:10:55.680 --> 1:10:57.880 So he's now remembered as the person that took down 1:10:57.920 --> 1:11:03.360 a murderer, not as the disgraced lawyer rebrand. Yes, but 1:11:03.960 --> 1:11:07.920 the jury believed Andrew Fraser. Dupass was found guilty in 1:11:07.960 --> 1:11:10.400 August two thousand and seven and sentenced to his third 1:11:10.520 --> 1:11:14.479 life sentence. There had been a one million dollar reward 1:11:14.560 --> 1:11:18.840 on offer for Dupass's conviction, So information that led to 1:11:18.880 --> 1:11:24.320 the arrest and conviction of Messina hal Vargas's murderer, there 1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:26.960 would be a one million dollar award. Now Fraser has 1:11:26.960 --> 1:11:28.720 said that he did get some of this, but it's 1:11:28.760 --> 1:11:31.640 never been revealed how much. Right, Okay, And it was 1:11:31.680 --> 1:11:36.320 a recommendation by Victoria police that he deserved the reward money. 1:11:36.520 --> 1:11:36.640 Right. 1:11:36.960 --> 1:11:39.840 They stated unequivocally that they would not have got a 1:11:39.840 --> 1:11:41.360 conviction without his evidence. 1:11:41.520 --> 1:11:43.639 That's true, because that was the reason. Yeah, it wasn't 1:11:43.640 --> 1:11:44.520 it completely? 1:11:44.680 --> 1:11:46.320 So what do you think about that that it was 1:11:46.720 --> 1:11:49.920 vic Pole that actually said, yep, he should get the reward. 1:11:49.960 --> 1:11:52.840 I think it's called egg on their face. Far Yeah, 1:11:52.840 --> 1:11:57.639 I think, Sam, Oh, you're so right, egg on a pig. 1:11:58.640 --> 1:12:01.000 But it would have been I don't think we're allowed 1:12:01.040 --> 1:12:01.559 to call the police. 1:12:02.840 --> 1:12:06.640 Nice. My old friend of mine that is like the 1:12:06.680 --> 1:12:10.280 most by the book person ever and never never does 1:12:10.320 --> 1:12:13.760 anything bad in his life. He always always anytime he 1:12:13.800 --> 1:12:18.280 sees a police cargo, thought it smelt bacon. Oh, yeah, 1:12:18.320 --> 1:12:19.960 it's awful, It's hilarious. 1:12:20.560 --> 1:12:23.000 There was a there was a cafe in the town 1:12:23.080 --> 1:12:26.680 where my sister has a holiday house. There needs to 1:12:26.720 --> 1:12:29.320 be a cafe in the town called Piglets, And there 1:12:29.360 --> 1:12:32.280 was a sign leading into the town that said piglets 1:12:32.280 --> 1:12:33.320 five hundred meters ahead. 1:12:33.400 --> 1:12:33.639 Yeah. 1:12:33.960 --> 1:12:40.160 And one day then police Chief Commissioner of Victoria, Christine Nixon, 1:12:40.640 --> 1:12:43.120 was driving into town to do an opening of something 1:12:43.200 --> 1:12:46.879 in this little town and saw the sign saying piglets ahead, 1:12:47.320 --> 1:12:49.120 and she thought they'd put that up to take the 1:12:49.160 --> 1:12:51.479 piece out of her like. And then she went to 1:12:51.560 --> 1:12:53.640 the cafe and was like, oh wait, it's not about that. 1:12:54.160 --> 1:12:55.640 No, I think I would think we've been quiet. That's 1:12:55.800 --> 1:12:59.640 that's a lot of swallowing your dignity, I think, you know, 1:12:59.680 --> 1:13:00.599 for them to do that. 1:13:00.560 --> 1:13:03.439 I think it's actually quite admirable. Yeah. Also, it wasn't 1:13:03.439 --> 1:13:06.640 any of the detectives who had anything to do with 1:13:06.720 --> 1:13:10.439 him directly, you know, getting him behind bars and stuff. 1:13:10.560 --> 1:13:12.240 I don't know if some of them because obviously would 1:13:12.240 --> 1:13:14.639 have been the homicide squad. Yeah, some of them very well, 1:13:14.640 --> 1:13:17.720 may have worked on some of the some cases that 1:13:17.760 --> 1:13:21.559 he had defended, you know, like the doctor death and stuff. 1:13:21.600 --> 1:13:23.439 I don't know if there was any crossover with them, 1:13:23.439 --> 1:13:25.400 but I do think it's quite admirable for them to 1:13:25.439 --> 1:13:28.800 say to not try to fight the reward money. They like, no, 1:13:29.120 --> 1:13:31.679 we put out a reward for this, and he got 1:13:31.680 --> 1:13:32.800 the convictions. 1:13:32.280 --> 1:13:34.360 And you kind of see, like you know, in those 1:13:34.479 --> 1:13:37.880 kind of older TV shows of cops back then, you 1:13:38.000 --> 1:13:40.320 kind of see them as people that just hate the 1:13:40.400 --> 1:13:41.320 crims so much. 1:13:42.520 --> 1:13:45.479 Was actually quite yeah, yeah, but they hate the crim's 1:13:45.520 --> 1:13:46.240 defense lawyers. 1:13:46.880 --> 1:13:48.360 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 1:13:48.439 --> 1:13:50.960 So after Andrew Fraser's release from prison in two thousand 1:13:50.960 --> 1:13:54.240 and six, he rebuilt his life from scratch as an author, 1:13:54.280 --> 1:13:57.400 a documentary maker, and public speaker. Now I say from scratch. 1:13:57.439 --> 1:13:59.240 He was signed by Maxim Sparks. Is that right? 1:14:00.040 --> 1:14:01.760 Don't have that? You think everyone is. 1:14:03.680 --> 1:14:04.080 Signed by. 1:14:07.720 --> 1:14:07.840 Uh? 1:14:08.120 --> 1:14:10.080 Yeah, I say it's rebuilt his life from a scratch 1:14:11.160 --> 1:14:16.080 in terms of money. His wife, who had stayed with 1:14:16.160 --> 1:14:20.280 him throughout his prison sentence, towards the end said when 1:14:20.280 --> 1:14:22.160 you get out, you're not going to be coming back 1:14:22.160 --> 1:14:24.880 and living with me, and they split up. He had 1:14:24.880 --> 1:14:27.680 two children who you know, he'd missed five years of 1:14:27.720 --> 1:14:32.920 their lives. He was living in housing that was provided 1:14:33.000 --> 1:14:35.799 by you know, the parole board. He was threatened multiple 1:14:35.800 --> 1:14:38.639 times in the lead up to Dupass's trial. 1:14:38.880 --> 1:14:40.760 Okay, I received. 1:14:41.400 --> 1:14:44.479 Anonymous threats saying, you know, don't dog all of this. 1:14:44.800 --> 1:14:46.759 Imagine like the Underworld people would have been quite scared 1:14:46.760 --> 1:14:49.080 as well and been like you because I guess wine, 1:14:49.120 --> 1:14:51.000 it's a domino effect, isn't it exactly? 1:14:51.040 --> 1:14:54.640 And the Underworld gat wars were I think they were 1:14:54.640 --> 1:14:58.760 pretty much all like the main part of Melbourne's Underworld 1:14:58.760 --> 1:15:01.880 gangline war was kind of wrapped up by two thousand 1:15:01.880 --> 1:15:02.160 and six. 1:15:02.200 --> 1:15:05.320 But the people, to him, they are killing the world 1:15:05.320 --> 1:15:06.200 with comedy right now. 1:15:07.200 --> 1:15:10.600 Don't you get defamation gays? That was a joke everybody. 1:15:10.200 --> 1:15:11.439 For them killing me? What comedy is? 1:15:11.479 --> 1:15:15.360 I kay to say? There are the people. Were the 1:15:15.360 --> 1:15:19.160 people that kind of in the gangland world that got 1:15:19.200 --> 1:15:21.439 away from ever being convicted or weren't then that was 1:15:21.439 --> 1:15:25.960 still around, it'd be pretty terrifying. Sure, although he represented 1:15:26.280 --> 1:15:28.800 some of them, he also represented the enemies of some 1:15:28.880 --> 1:15:31.280 of them. And yeah, it was a pretty terrifying way 1:15:31.320 --> 1:15:33.640 I would think to go back into life, especially some 1:15:33.720 --> 1:15:34.519 of them, so. 1:15:34.880 --> 1:15:38.000 Loud and proud and rich yes, right, yeah, and kept 1:15:38.000 --> 1:15:40.600 making a scene of kind of saying, you just I 1:15:40.680 --> 1:15:42.240 just never asked them if they did it all, you know, 1:15:42.320 --> 1:15:45.200 like that the way he kind of praded himself. 1:15:45.360 --> 1:15:47.799 Yeah, And he was given a lot of flak for 1:15:49.200 --> 1:15:51.040 the fact that he was the style witness for Peter 1:15:51.000 --> 1:15:53.439 to do pass. Obviously a lot of people that were 1:15:54.080 --> 1:15:56.559 very thankful for it, but there was also a lot 1:15:56.640 --> 1:15:59.200 that kind of tongue in cheek or roll in the eyes. 1:16:00.240 --> 1:16:02.120 He has to be the center of attention again, of course, 1:16:02.120 --> 1:16:04.519 he has to redeem himself. And then you know, I say, 1:16:04.560 --> 1:16:06.759 rebuilt his life from scratch as an author and public 1:16:06.760 --> 1:16:09.320 speaker and stuff. It was all about his life and 1:16:09.360 --> 1:16:12.360 his time, so it wasn't starting from scratch finding a 1:16:12.360 --> 1:16:16.120 whole new career and everything. He used his life story 1:16:16.760 --> 1:16:21.639 to then get success of some form after his conviction 1:16:21.720 --> 1:16:22.000 as well. 1:16:22.040 --> 1:16:24.200 Well, it's good that he kind of went for a 1:16:24.400 --> 1:16:29.679 like under the radar publicist Marx and Sparks, I said 1:16:29.680 --> 1:16:32.200 Max and Sparks before, but Marks and Sparks and I 1:16:32.200 --> 1:16:35.320 would like to put on the record sushi Mango have never. 1:16:35.240 --> 1:16:41.960 Killed that we know of that we he phrased es 1:16:42.040 --> 1:16:44.880 Whears that from the moment he was arrested. He has 1:16:44.960 --> 1:16:48.280 never ever touched an illicit drug again, and I think 1:16:48.320 --> 1:16:52.599 I would believe him on that's pretty literally sobering wake 1:16:52.680 --> 1:16:53.000 up call. 1:16:53.840 --> 1:16:57.559 Also, can I just say, real quick, if you ever 1:16:57.560 --> 1:17:00.479 found out why they're called sushi mango and it's not 1:17:00.520 --> 1:17:03.439 spelled very for like an Italian. 1:17:03.040 --> 1:17:05.600 And it's not spelled sushi as the Italian food he 1:17:05.760 --> 1:17:08.400 is anyway, please you don't know you were just I'm 1:17:08.439 --> 1:17:11.120 just asking, okay, if anyone knows. 1:17:10.760 --> 1:17:12.519 No one called sushi mango, if. 1:17:12.479 --> 1:17:19.400 No one knows what we're talking about. Australian comedy trio 1:17:22.080 --> 1:17:25.519 Andrew Fraser did almost become a star witness in another 1:17:25.600 --> 1:17:31.320 murder case, again against Peter Dupass. Wow In twenty thirteen, 1:17:31.840 --> 1:17:35.360 police reopened the murder investigation of a ninety five year 1:17:35.400 --> 1:17:38.519 old Kathleen Downs, who had been killed in a very 1:17:38.560 --> 1:17:43.320 similar manner to Dupass's other known victims. So when they 1:17:43.360 --> 1:17:46.439 reopened to the case, they again called Fraser in, who 1:17:46.479 --> 1:17:50.360 said that Dupas had opened up about Kathleen's death, mentioning 1:17:50.360 --> 1:17:53.479 it three times. He said Dupas referred to the ninety 1:17:53.479 --> 1:17:55.559 five year old as the old Shierlert Down. 1:17:55.600 --> 1:17:56.000 The road. 1:17:57.040 --> 1:18:00.960 He lived in Pascovale, near the unsolved murder in Brunswick, 1:18:01.040 --> 1:18:06.479 which du Pass had once told him, quote, I reckon, 1:18:06.520 --> 1:18:08.960 I'm going to end up wearing the old shiler as well, 1:18:09.880 --> 1:18:13.040 meaning Fraser interpreted to believe he would be implicated in 1:18:13.080 --> 1:18:16.880 Miss Down's death as well as health Arcassah. Sure, he 1:18:16.960 --> 1:18:21.120 said he could so. Fraser said he could do without 1:18:21.160 --> 1:18:24.880 further publicity relating to du Pass, but he did feel 1:18:24.960 --> 1:18:27.519 when police asked him he needed to speak up, so 1:18:27.560 --> 1:18:29.960 he held onto this for years. It was also only 1:18:30.120 --> 1:18:32.479 three mentions of the old shiller down the road. It 1:18:32.560 --> 1:18:36.840 was far less convincing to Fraser as a lawyer as 1:18:36.920 --> 1:18:41.879 evidence and what he went through in defense, in speaking 1:18:41.880 --> 1:18:45.240 out and being a witness against du Pass the first time. Yes, 1:18:45.400 --> 1:18:48.439 because like I'm not, this man is behind bars for 1:18:48.479 --> 1:18:52.559 the rest of his life. I don't need to get him, 1:18:52.680 --> 1:18:54.880 help get him convicted of a fourth murder. I don't 1:18:54.880 --> 1:18:56.920 have enough evidence on my own. I don't need to 1:18:56.920 --> 1:18:59.280 do this. But then when they reopened the murder investigation, 1:18:59.320 --> 1:19:02.519 he went there are these three things, he said to. 1:19:02.479 --> 1:19:05.040 Me, God, you're gonna have to read about it in 1:19:05.040 --> 1:19:10.280 my book exactly. And Maxon just gives him the thumbs up. 1:19:11.320 --> 1:19:14.160 Jupaz felt he needed then to speak up. He was 1:19:14.200 --> 1:19:18.200 also spurred on by a cancer diagnosis that made him 1:19:18.240 --> 1:19:20.680 recess a lot. So you hear that a lot when 1:19:20.720 --> 1:19:23.360 when someone has whether it's a near death experience or 1:19:23.360 --> 1:19:25.519 an illness, they go, Okay, what can I what's my 1:19:25.600 --> 1:19:26.160 legacy here? 1:19:26.520 --> 1:19:29.280 I do wish it happened with criminals that have killed 1:19:29.439 --> 1:19:31.280 and we talk where the body. 1:19:31.040 --> 1:19:33.080 Is like that, No, I do it. 1:19:33.200 --> 1:19:36.240 I swear all the you're cool. 1:19:35.960 --> 1:19:38.599 Man, think you Yeah, we say that all the time. 1:19:38.800 --> 1:19:41.720 People murderers who are on their deathbed or criminals are 1:19:41.720 --> 1:19:43.400 on their death bed, just confess you. 1:19:43.439 --> 1:19:47.120 Have those Paul victim's family some sort of opportunity to 1:19:47.160 --> 1:19:49.040 bury their loved one or grief properly. 1:19:49.160 --> 1:19:49.360 Yeah. 1:19:50.840 --> 1:19:55.200 So Andrew Fraser agreed to be prosecution witness again. However, 1:19:55.360 --> 1:19:58.559 the case would end up falling over once again because 1:19:58.600 --> 1:20:02.280 of Andrew Fraser, never to be the one who wasn't 1:20:02.280 --> 1:20:05.400 the center of attention. By the time the case would 1:20:05.400 --> 1:20:08.200 be heard, Fraser was too sick with cancer to give evidence. 1:20:08.720 --> 1:20:11.679 Police were forced to abandon hopes of charges in this murder, 1:20:11.800 --> 1:20:16.040 but Kathleen Down's family hold no resentment towards Andrew Fraser 1:20:16.120 --> 1:20:18.960 for not speaking out earlier. They have peace knowing you 1:20:19.000 --> 1:20:21.320 pass was the killer and that he would never be released. 1:20:21.680 --> 1:20:26.519 Sure, it's so hard imagine just not knowing one but 1:20:26.560 --> 1:20:27.240 also being like. 1:20:27.240 --> 1:20:31.920 Well they said, they said that, they said the justice, 1:20:31.960 --> 1:20:34.320 the legal system in it would just be about having 1:20:34.360 --> 1:20:37.240 it on paper. They say they know one hundred percent 1:20:37.240 --> 1:20:40.439 it is him. He had hurt anyone again, and really 1:20:40.640 --> 1:20:44.360 thanked Andrew Fraser for telling them that he did confess 1:20:44.400 --> 1:20:48.040 about these other things, so they at least knew. So 1:20:48.240 --> 1:20:50.600 I said he had cancer. He was getting more and 1:20:50.680 --> 1:20:55.600 more sick and was too sick to be able to 1:20:55.640 --> 1:20:58.719 even be a witness in a case. So on Andrew 1:20:58.720 --> 1:21:02.080 Fraser's death, I'm going to steal the words here of 1:21:02.479 --> 1:21:06.479 crime reporter from the Age newspaper, Andrew Rule, who is 1:21:06.800 --> 1:21:09.960 one of the most brilliant writers in the world, and 1:21:10.000 --> 1:21:13.040 get him on the podcast. He's got his own podcast. 1:21:13.040 --> 1:21:14.360 I don't think you want to come on else, but 1:21:14.439 --> 1:21:17.679 we can try. He is also one of the I believe. 1:21:18.120 --> 1:21:19.880 Hang on, I'm going to google this before I say 1:21:19.880 --> 1:21:20.280 the wrong thing. 1:21:20.320 --> 1:21:24.280 Okay, I will say something then about Max Markson. If 1:21:24.320 --> 1:21:28.160 you're listening to the podcast. We think you represent some 1:21:28.200 --> 1:21:30.400 of the greatest acts currently living. 1:21:30.600 --> 1:21:31.040 I don't. 1:21:31.320 --> 1:21:33.160 I do. I think you know what you did for 1:21:33.160 --> 1:21:37.280 Bill Clinton with his book. So we're in Australia's shut up. 1:21:37.320 --> 1:21:39.719 I found the answer and I was right. It's always 1:21:39.720 --> 1:21:40.519 good to check though. 1:21:40.720 --> 1:21:40.920 Yep. 1:21:41.600 --> 1:21:44.800 Andrew Rule was one of the writers of the original 1:21:44.840 --> 1:21:49.840 books named Underbelly, which I then turned into the incredible 1:21:49.880 --> 1:21:54.719 TV series in Australia See Change, Sea Change. I've been 1:21:54.960 --> 1:21:59.520 talking a lot about the Melbourne Gangland War in this episode, listeners, 1:21:59.640 --> 1:22:04.240 I implore you to find under Belly season one. 1:22:05.240 --> 1:22:08.640 Yeah. I wonder where it's available, but yeah, we watched it. 1:22:08.640 --> 1:22:11.439 It's probably on stand or like one of the things. 1:22:11.720 --> 1:22:14.400 Look wherever you are in the world. Look if you 1:22:14.400 --> 1:22:16.719 can find it under Belly season one. There are many 1:22:16.720 --> 1:22:18.800 seasons and they're all good, but the first season is 1:22:18.800 --> 1:22:22.000 one of the best strulling TV shows with God and 1:22:22.080 --> 1:22:24.720 Graund and Vince Colossimo. 1:22:25.400 --> 1:22:26.360 I didn't see at the airport. 1:22:28.320 --> 1:22:33.040 And there's also other Roger Corser, our. 1:22:32.960 --> 1:22:36.280 Friend Jane Harbor, beautiful Jane Harbors. 1:22:36.320 --> 1:22:38.360 She's not listening to this episode. We thought of three 1:22:38.400 --> 1:22:39.520 other people before. 1:22:39.600 --> 1:22:43.439 She came to my house warming, and she every single 1:22:43.520 --> 1:22:46.960 time someone would bring some sort of present or something, 1:22:47.000 --> 1:22:49.080 you know, beautiful housewoman gives you go, that's from all 1:22:49.120 --> 1:22:56.760 of us, every single time. That's from all of us, 1:22:56.760 --> 1:22:59.479 just shouting across the place. That's from all of us. 1:23:00.120 --> 1:23:03.720 Underbelly Season one, Jane Harbor is the girl in the 1:23:03.720 --> 1:23:07.639 first episode who's wearing the slippers when she goes out driving. 1:23:08.120 --> 1:23:11.320 You'll know that it's a fantastic show. And a lot 1:23:11.320 --> 1:23:15.040 of these characters are in at the Morans. Yeah, watch it. 1:23:15.040 --> 1:23:18.439 It's great anyway. One of the writers of it was 1:23:18.479 --> 1:23:21.719 Andrew Rule. The other John Sylvester, another very famous Melbourne 1:23:21.760 --> 1:23:25.479 crime writer. So I'm stealing Andrew Ruhle's beautiful words here 1:23:26.000 --> 1:23:30.800 about Andrew Fraser's passing. The man who lived life on 1:23:30.840 --> 1:23:34.080 his own terms, though not always wisely left it the 1:23:34.120 --> 1:23:38.080 same way. On Wednesday, August nine, twenty twenty three, after 1:23:38.120 --> 1:23:41.200 a lengthy cancer battle, he called friends from his palliative 1:23:41.240 --> 1:23:44.240 care bed to say goodbye. I'm pulling the plug, he 1:23:44.320 --> 1:23:47.120 told one friend. Just before eleven am, he waited for 1:23:47.160 --> 1:23:49.559 his son Lachlan to arrive at his bedside to join 1:23:49.640 --> 1:23:53.200 his second wife at his own request, phrases. Oxygen supply 1:23:53.360 --> 1:23:56.080 was turned off and he died around one thirty PM. 1:23:56.520 --> 1:23:58.880 And I just used his wording in that because I 1:23:59.000 --> 1:24:02.000 absolutely adore how he said. The man who lived life 1:24:02.080 --> 1:24:05.280 on his own terms, though not always wisely left it 1:24:05.320 --> 1:24:08.439 the same way. Yeah, yeah, because that to me sums 1:24:08.520 --> 1:24:13.360 up Andrew Fraser. I have been obsessed with this story. Now. 1:24:14.040 --> 1:24:21.160 I'll say three kind of sources or just recommendations if 1:24:21.200 --> 1:24:23.280 you want to know more about this. The TV show 1:24:23.360 --> 1:24:26.439 Killing Time, which is an Australian television show as well. 1:24:26.600 --> 1:24:30.320 It stars our favorite David Wynham playing Andrew Fraser. You 1:24:30.400 --> 1:24:32.639 love that guy. I think it is a brilliant show. 1:24:32.640 --> 1:24:33.240 I rewatched it. 1:24:33.320 --> 1:24:34.120 I watched it at the time. 1:24:34.160 --> 1:24:36.599 I rewatched it again. It's from like twenty ten or something. 1:24:37.479 --> 1:24:40.080 It's brilliant and you really kind of get a look 1:24:40.120 --> 1:24:42.360 into the unraveling phrasers life. 1:24:42.400 --> 1:24:45.200 But to see what's written by because there's a there's 1:24:45.439 --> 1:24:49.280 quite a few Australian writers that write everything, and what 1:24:49.320 --> 1:24:50.439 they do is brilliant. 1:24:50.520 --> 1:24:52.360 It's not an Underbelly season. 1:24:52.200 --> 1:24:55.000 Yeah, okay, but it's Killing Times. Is it a few seasons? 1:24:55.200 --> 1:24:55.360 No? 1:24:55.360 --> 1:24:58.320 No, No, it's just his story. It's just one season, 1:24:58.360 --> 1:24:59.759 and it's just his story. 1:25:00.120 --> 1:25:03.960 David Wenham, he is so so good, like in everything 1:25:04.000 --> 1:25:07.240 he's recently in Fake as well, which is oh yeah, 1:25:07.240 --> 1:25:10.519 that's good too, Asha Eddy, and oh my god, the 1:25:10.560 --> 1:25:14.400 way he is able to play someone so likable but 1:25:14.600 --> 1:25:17.120 unlikable at the same time. I think David Wenham just 1:25:17.120 --> 1:25:20.439 has his uncanny ability to get lost in whatever part 1:25:20.479 --> 1:25:22.560 he's playing. Having written. 1:25:24.400 --> 1:25:27.719 Dan you did, Of course you did? Written by Ian 1:25:27.840 --> 1:25:30.759 David mac gudge and Catherine Thompson and Sean Grant. 1:25:30.840 --> 1:25:33.200 Oh yeah, I've heard. I've heard of those. They had 1:25:33.200 --> 1:25:34.240 a lot of Australian television. 1:25:34.280 --> 1:25:35.960 Okay, well they wrote Killing Time. It's right. 1:25:36.280 --> 1:25:39.920 I think they're on Rake as well, those people. Yeah right, okay, yeah, 1:25:39.920 --> 1:25:40.799 I feel that was right. 1:25:40.640 --> 1:25:43.920 As were Yeah okay, And if you're going to watch it, 1:25:44.000 --> 1:25:46.800 they go into the wallsh Street killings a lot, which 1:25:46.880 --> 1:25:49.080 I have not gone into depth about here because I 1:25:49.160 --> 1:25:51.800 keep saying, oh do that. It's a story. Caught in 1:25:51.800 --> 1:25:56.519 the Middle is Phraser's book, and you are, that's right. 1:25:56.880 --> 1:25:59.840 And Andrew Rules podcast. He's got a podcast, but there 1:26:00.160 --> 1:26:04.599 is a kind of like an offset side podcast he's 1:26:04.600 --> 1:26:08.439 done called Cops, Crims and Cocaine where he interviews Andrew 1:26:08.439 --> 1:26:11.679 Fraser over. I think it's three episodes and a lot 1:26:11.680 --> 1:26:14.920 of this I got from yeah, his own words listening 1:26:14.960 --> 1:26:18.799 to that. He spoke a lot in media after his release. 1:26:19.080 --> 1:26:21.040 He spoke a lot about what happened, a lot about 1:26:21.720 --> 1:26:25.759 Louis Moran and Denis Allen. I didn't speak much about 1:26:26.160 --> 1:26:32.160 Walsh Street. I min interpretation of that is perhaps the Again, 1:26:32.160 --> 1:26:33.559 I'm going to use the word guilt, but I don't 1:26:33.560 --> 1:26:36.360 know if it's the right word around his involvement in 1:26:36.360 --> 1:26:40.799 getting them off. He says quite openly that he knows. 1:26:40.640 --> 1:26:42.719 Victor Pierce was okay. 1:26:42.880 --> 1:26:45.200 At least Victor Piers was guilty. 1:26:45.479 --> 1:26:45.719 Yep. 1:26:47.720 --> 1:26:51.680 Yeah, but it's really interesting. The episodes with him are 1:26:51.800 --> 1:26:53.719 like a chat with him. It's not kind of explaining 1:26:53.720 --> 1:26:56.840 history and depth, but they're the sources. I hadn't thought 1:26:56.840 --> 1:26:59.679 you guys might be interested in listening to a watching 1:27:00.439 --> 1:27:05.240 I've just I think I first Oh no, no, of course. 1:27:05.920 --> 1:27:07.000 So I was going to say I think I first 1:27:07.040 --> 1:27:09.280 heard about it watching Killing Time. That's not true at all. 1:27:10.320 --> 1:27:12.839 I was there. I said this in the PDD Bassett episode. 1:27:13.560 --> 1:27:18.200 I was doing work experience in with Channel ten News, 1:27:19.240 --> 1:27:21.320 doing a court story. So we were in court one 1:27:21.400 --> 1:27:24.400 day when all the court reporters phones started going mental, 1:27:24.760 --> 1:27:28.040 and it was when it had come out that Andrew 1:27:28.080 --> 1:27:32.400 Fraser was not even that he was, that Messina hal 1:27:32.479 --> 1:27:36.400 Vargas's murderer had been charged. Wow, And so that was 1:27:36.439 --> 1:27:38.600 a huge, big news day. And then of course it 1:27:38.640 --> 1:27:40.760 came out from that. It was because they received new 1:27:40.760 --> 1:27:44.160 evidence from Andrew Fraser from behind bars. So that was 1:27:44.680 --> 1:27:48.400 for my nerdy little journal brain, especially at work experience age, 1:27:48.439 --> 1:27:51.200 I was like, this is so exciting. This is something 1:27:51.200 --> 1:27:54.200 in history. There's going to be closure for a family 1:27:54.240 --> 1:27:56.080 who's been looking for a killer for years. There's a 1:27:56.160 --> 1:27:59.320 lawyer involved who's been disgraced himself. This is so exciting. 1:27:59.840 --> 1:28:03.880 That made me really excited about crime reporting, but also 1:28:04.040 --> 1:28:07.840 made me really quite obsessed with this du Pass and 1:28:07.840 --> 1:28:11.280 Andrew Fraser cases. And it's one of those stories that 1:28:11.320 --> 1:28:14.479 I just find It's got everything right. It's got a 1:28:14.520 --> 1:28:17.240 disgraced lawyer, it's got a lawyer that people fucking hated, 1:28:17.560 --> 1:28:21.080 it's got one of the most infamous police shootings in 1:28:21.120 --> 1:28:25.040 Australian history. It's got two of the most infamous drug 1:28:25.080 --> 1:28:29.639 lords and murderers. It's got jay l It's got another murderer. 1:28:29.680 --> 1:28:30.960 It's just I love it. 1:28:31.040 --> 1:28:35.040 I love the story so fascinating, especially to happen in Melbourne. 1:28:35.040 --> 1:28:36.479 It it feels like a TV show. 1:28:36.720 --> 1:28:38.920 It absolutely does. It is called Killing Time. 1:28:39.080 --> 1:28:41.240 Yes, just when I was giggling, then who wrote it? 1:28:41.280 --> 1:28:43.080 The number one question that came up was is it 1:28:43.080 --> 1:28:45.120 based on a true story? It doesn't feel like it 1:28:45.160 --> 1:28:47.080 should be. It's like that, it's too wild. 1:28:47.360 --> 1:28:49.559 I'm going to tell you a story next week for 1:28:49.600 --> 1:28:52.800 our Christmas a week of episodes. I'm going to tell 1:28:52.800 --> 1:28:56.040 you a story that you will not believe. He's already 1:28:56.080 --> 1:28:58.000 not a TV show or. 1:28:57.960 --> 1:28:59.920 A trade market trademarket yourself. 1:29:00.880 --> 1:29:04.120 I would also like to ask you the question, is 1:29:04.400 --> 1:29:07.240 Andrew Fraser related to Dorm Fraser? 1:29:08.680 --> 1:29:13.479 Well, you pronounced Frasier wrong. Then I don't know, but 1:29:13.560 --> 1:29:14.639 I have not seen. 1:29:14.439 --> 1:29:19.640 Anywhere derogatory because she came to my school. So I 1:29:19.640 --> 1:29:21.840 was I was a big swimmer in school and she 1:29:22.000 --> 1:29:22.439 was a. 1:29:22.320 --> 1:29:23.200 Swimmer who was big. 1:29:23.280 --> 1:29:25.400 I was a large her. Wow, I just took up 1:29:25.439 --> 1:29:28.840 the whole pool and I, uh yeah, Dorm Fraser came 1:29:28.880 --> 1:29:31.439 to do a speech at our school, and she was 1:29:31.479 --> 1:29:34.760 an Olympic star. She was incredible and everything, and she 1:29:34.880 --> 1:29:37.040 told me to go away. I try to speak to her. 1:29:37.240 --> 1:29:39.479 What do you mean I want to speak to her 1:29:39.479 --> 1:29:43.080 after its Hi, Dawn, I I would love to be 1:29:43.120 --> 1:29:45.240 a swimmer one day of alway kind of loves when 1:29:45.280 --> 1:29:49.599 she went go away? No she did, Yeah she did. Yeah, Yeah, 1:29:50.080 --> 1:29:50.799 that's awderful. 1:29:51.080 --> 1:29:52.840 Was she the one that stole the flag or something 1:29:52.920 --> 1:29:53.439 got in trouble? 1:29:53.520 --> 1:29:57.240 Yeah, yeah, she's She had a lot of controversy, which well, 1:29:57.280 --> 1:30:00.160 it's so funny. Yeahs will be great for that as 1:30:00.160 --> 1:30:02.040 well as rex Hunt is the other one that I 1:30:02.080 --> 1:30:02.600 really want to do. 1:30:04.680 --> 1:30:08.479 But I also rex Hunt is such a dangerous name. 1:30:08.360 --> 1:30:13.160 To oh my god quickly. But yeah, so I anytime 1:30:13.200 --> 1:30:19.000 that Dawn Fraser later had any public speaking things where 1:30:19.040 --> 1:30:22.000 she would say something awful, my friend, one of my 1:30:22.000 --> 1:30:27.040 best Friendsoul always message, you'd be happy about that just 1:30:27.080 --> 1:30:31.519 because of taking down breaks it down. It's like Margaret Court. 1:30:31.520 --> 1:30:34.720 Every time I think Born and Margaret Court are kind 1:30:34.720 --> 1:30:36.160 of the same person derogatory. 1:30:36.240 --> 1:30:39.160 But this is the funny thing, right, just because someone 1:30:39.280 --> 1:30:43.120 is an incredibly gifted athlete does not mean they're going 1:30:43.160 --> 1:30:46.759 to be I will. 1:30:48.160 --> 1:30:49.120 Speeches at schools. 1:30:49.320 --> 1:30:52.120 Will I will put all your minds back to our 1:30:52.160 --> 1:30:53.720 episode on Oscar Pistorius. 1:30:53.880 --> 1:30:58.639 Sure people not always. That is so fascinating about Andrew Fraser, 1:30:58.640 --> 1:31:02.320 though I I didn't know the story and when you 1:31:02.360 --> 1:31:04.080 talked about it in the p to Do Pats episode, 1:31:04.160 --> 1:31:06.240 going this is going to be a whole story. 1:31:06.520 --> 1:31:09.320 I will you like how I was like, because a 1:31:09.439 --> 1:31:11.479 lawyer was in jail and then got another guy. 1:31:12.360 --> 1:31:13.400 That is fascinating. 1:31:13.439 --> 1:31:15.120 There's so much more to it. I also didn't go 1:31:15.200 --> 1:31:17.519 into it all the fact that he was Alan Bond's lawyer. 1:31:17.760 --> 1:31:19.439 Wow, which if. 1:31:19.400 --> 1:31:21.920 You don't know about that, if you're listening, give a 1:31:21.960 --> 1:31:25.680 quick google an Australian businessman who lost a lot of 1:31:25.720 --> 1:31:28.200 people a lot of money. It would be winning the 1:31:28.240 --> 1:31:29.000 America's Cup. 1:31:29.320 --> 1:31:30.479 That'd be a great episode as well. 1:31:31.040 --> 1:31:33.000 Andrew Fraser was his lawyer as well, like he was, 1:31:33.120 --> 1:31:35.440 He's gonna be guy stories. 1:31:35.600 --> 1:31:37.479 Yeah, yeah, there's gonna be some crossovers. 1:31:37.640 --> 1:31:39.360 We'll do one mega episode one day. 1:31:39.600 --> 1:31:44.320 Yeah, all about it all the look I before we 1:31:44.320 --> 1:31:46.519 go to the mail bank today, g Love. We have 1:31:46.680 --> 1:31:51.040 had quite a lot of messages this week about Joe 1:31:51.160 --> 1:31:53.960 Chinkway the episode that was this week, and a lot 1:31:54.000 --> 1:31:58.360 of people have actually sent through messages about the Joe 1:31:58.400 --> 1:32:06.040 chin Quay episode. Some people sent through an interview that 1:32:06.160 --> 1:32:10.960 was done with a new Oh after sixty minutes one. No, 1:32:11.200 --> 1:32:15.760 it was an interview on a podcast on ABC, and 1:32:15.840 --> 1:32:17.960 it was someone that went to meet with her and 1:32:18.040 --> 1:32:20.000 had a discussion and I would like to just play 1:32:20.120 --> 1:32:22.200 a little bit of that. When was there to be 1:32:22.360 --> 1:32:26.880 pleased the interview? So this was released in twenty sixteen. Okay, yep, 1:32:26.960 --> 1:32:31.760 so this was on ABC on a podcast called Life Matters. 1:32:32.200 --> 1:32:33.559 State this wouldn't have happened. 1:32:33.680 --> 1:32:36.080 I wanted my mother for Wily to help across his 1:32:36.120 --> 1:32:40.240 team a number of times prior to befits occurring, and 1:32:40.560 --> 1:32:42.800 you know, I fell through the cracks, as a lot 1:32:42.800 --> 1:32:43.320 of women do. 1:32:43.800 --> 1:32:47.640 So there's kind of true, like there's your individual responsibility. 1:32:47.720 --> 1:32:50.519 But at the time when this happened, you told a 1:32:50.560 --> 1:32:53.400 lot of people what you were thinking about, and nobody 1:32:54.000 --> 1:32:58.080 helped you. Nobody told Joe, nobody told the police. So 1:32:59.439 --> 1:33:02.920 how much fault do you place on the people around you. 1:33:03.520 --> 1:33:05.680 I don't want to put the fold is mine, you 1:33:05.760 --> 1:33:07.439 know what I mean. I don't want to put the 1:33:07.479 --> 1:33:10.960 fold is mine for not listening to people and seeking out. 1:33:10.880 --> 1:33:12.800 The mental health support that I should have. 1:33:12.840 --> 1:33:16.559 Writed, so you take responsibility for absolutely. Yeah. 1:33:16.960 --> 1:33:20.439 So the film that's currently been made, what's in post 1:33:20.439 --> 1:33:24.120 production of Helen Garner's book Joting Ways Constellation? Yeah, how 1:33:24.160 --> 1:33:28.000 do you feel about that? Very soon, within the next 1:33:28.040 --> 1:33:30.360 six months or so, there's going to be a film 1:33:30.360 --> 1:33:31.679 where you are the lead character. 1:33:33.280 --> 1:33:36.800 It's very confronting again to have to relieve all of that, 1:33:38.120 --> 1:33:42.599 and I do fear that, because it's based on Helen's book, 1:33:43.000 --> 1:33:46.960 that it won't adequately explore the mental health aspects. I 1:33:46.960 --> 1:33:48.880 guess there's a sense of I don't know what the 1:33:49.800 --> 1:33:50.840 what what's going to happen? 1:33:50.920 --> 1:33:53.440 So I have a kind of uncertainty. 1:33:53.880 --> 1:33:56.560 Have you been contacted by the filmmakers? 1:33:56.600 --> 1:33:57.600 No? 1:33:59.000 --> 1:34:01.200 Do you wish that you were contacted by them so 1:34:01.240 --> 1:34:03.599 that you could participate in some way? 1:34:03.880 --> 1:34:06.800 Well, on that point of female evans being talked to 1:34:07.000 --> 1:34:09.880 rather being brother than being talked about, it would have 1:34:09.920 --> 1:34:12.600 been nice if they've kind of talked to me and 1:34:13.320 --> 1:34:17.040 I don't know, gained some understanding about where I was 1:34:17.040 --> 1:34:18.799 at that in that at that time. 1:34:19.200 --> 1:34:20.520 Why do you think they haven't. 1:34:20.760 --> 1:34:23.960 Because I guess they're not interested. I haven't seen the film, 1:34:23.960 --> 1:34:26.200 so I don't know what it's what, it's how I'm 1:34:26.240 --> 1:34:31.320 going to be portrayed. But I guess, like Helen's book, 1:34:31.360 --> 1:34:35.200 there's a particular angle I assume that they're going to 1:34:35.240 --> 1:34:38.960 base it on, and so mine wouldn't be relevant to that, 1:34:39.680 --> 1:34:41.840 especially if you want to paint me is evil rather 1:34:41.880 --> 1:34:44.160 than mentally ill or there's no need to talk to it. 1:34:44.479 --> 1:34:47.360 Do you see yourself as mental as supposed to evil? 1:34:48.280 --> 1:34:52.200 You know, if you're not right now, but looking back at. 1:34:52.080 --> 1:34:55.640 Twenty years, yeah, absolutely off the planet mentally mentally and will. 1:34:55.680 --> 1:34:57.960 And this is saying that you know, evil is rare, 1:34:58.000 --> 1:35:00.960 but mental illness is real. You know, having been treated 1:35:01.560 --> 1:35:05.280 now adequately, I can see just how I'm. 1:35:04.880 --> 1:35:05.920 Really unwell I was. 1:35:06.520 --> 1:35:11.320 Now. That is a thirty minute interview. I found it fascinating. 1:35:11.400 --> 1:35:13.920 I think it's a few listeners sent it to us 1:35:14.240 --> 1:35:17.760 at Chris Audio. I mean you can some of the 1:35:17.760 --> 1:35:18.920 great audio, but. 1:35:18.960 --> 1:35:24.599 I mean, podcast been around very long now, sixteen that's 1:35:24.600 --> 1:35:26.120 probably good for a podcasting. 1:35:25.960 --> 1:35:30.240 But yeah, it is. It is a really, really difficult interview. 1:35:30.520 --> 1:35:35.240 She says that she was prescribed zoloft and that made 1:35:35.280 --> 1:35:38.919 everything better. She realized that if she had been prescribed 1:35:38.960 --> 1:35:42.439 zoloft earlier, none of this would have happened. She blames 1:35:42.479 --> 1:35:45.640 it all on the doctors that misdiagnosed her, which is 1:35:45.960 --> 1:35:47.840 heinous in itself because. 1:35:47.680 --> 1:35:49.400 Zoloft is an antidepressants. 1:35:49.520 --> 1:35:50.840 Great yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1:35:50.920 --> 1:35:52.560 She was claiming far more than depressions. 1:35:52.520 --> 1:35:55.160 Oh my god, it was. It was a severe mental 1:35:55.200 --> 1:35:58.960 health issue, like she was in crisis mode. She was 1:35:59.080 --> 1:36:01.879 meant to be did quite a few times by her parents. 1:36:02.640 --> 1:36:08.040 She didn't end up going. That interview is wild. It is. 1:36:08.280 --> 1:36:12.840 It's just a fascinating, fascinating interview, and I think it 1:36:12.960 --> 1:36:17.120 is really interesting the way that she talks about Obviously 1:36:17.120 --> 1:36:19.600 she doesn't blame the other people, but to ask the 1:36:19.720 --> 1:36:23.559 question were you mentally ill or evil? Is such a 1:36:24.320 --> 1:36:31.759 such an interesting line of questioning. I find it really interesting. Firstly, 1:36:31.760 --> 1:36:33.920 she didn't sound like I thought she would sound. She 1:36:34.040 --> 1:36:36.519 sounds old, a lot older. When you kind of paint 1:36:36.520 --> 1:36:37.360 a picture of someone, you. 1:36:37.320 --> 1:36:38.639 Go, oh my god, that twenties. 1:36:38.880 --> 1:36:42.920 Yeah yeah. And then now she is doing her well. 1:36:42.960 --> 1:36:46.679 She used to actually finished her PhD on the women 1:36:46.800 --> 1:36:48.760 in I don't know what it was called, but it 1:36:48.800 --> 1:36:52.680 was like women are incarcerated, and she talks about this 1:36:52.760 --> 1:36:55.280 now and she's saying, yep, but there's there's more issues. 1:36:55.320 --> 1:36:59.920 She continually says in the podcast, there are more issue 1:37:00.320 --> 1:37:03.720 at stake. It's about women who are incarcerated. It's about 1:37:03.720 --> 1:37:06.400 the numbers that are increasing. Why are they doing this? 1:37:06.600 --> 1:37:12.080 And there is no point she goes, I killed Joe Chinque. 1:37:12.560 --> 1:37:16.440 There is nothing about that. It is just her continually 1:37:16.520 --> 1:37:20.439 saying why we're not going to the wider issues, the 1:37:20.479 --> 1:37:23.400 bigger issues. It's like, because the big issue is you 1:37:23.640 --> 1:37:25.320 murdered your boyfriend at the time. 1:37:25.439 --> 1:37:28.479 What angered me about that snippet there is that she said, Well, 1:37:28.520 --> 1:37:30.840 if they're basing it off Helen Garner's book, then they 1:37:30.880 --> 1:37:32.200 won't want to speak to me because they just want 1:37:32.240 --> 1:37:34.439 to portray me as evil. But you read the book 1:37:34.520 --> 1:37:37.719 and came out of that saying I have a totally 1:37:37.760 --> 1:37:42.280 new view on Yeah, yeah, yep, because I understood through 1:37:42.320 --> 1:37:44.320 reading the book about her mental health struggles. 1:37:44.439 --> 1:37:45.160 Yeah. Yeah. 1:37:45.200 --> 1:37:47.240 So that's fascinating for her to go, well, she just 1:37:47.240 --> 1:37:51.000 wants to blame me, Yeah yeah, fascinating. 1:37:51.120 --> 1:37:52.639 Yeah, and thank you to all the people that had 1:37:52.680 --> 1:37:56.200 sent me that, Like that is so interesting as just 1:37:56.240 --> 1:37:58.280 a point of I guess after you do it. I 1:37:58.320 --> 1:38:01.280 did not listen to it before I did the episode, 1:38:01.680 --> 1:38:03.680 which shows what great research I do. But you know, 1:38:04.160 --> 1:38:07.320 I'm a journalist and you're not. But but yeah, but 1:38:07.520 --> 1:38:09.280 it was really interesting and we've had, you know, a 1:38:09.320 --> 1:38:13.320 lot of letters that have come after that as well, 1:38:13.360 --> 1:38:17.200 like a lot of beautiful, beautiful Internet letters. And we're 1:38:17.240 --> 1:38:19.120 going to go soon to the letters, but I just 1:38:19.120 --> 1:38:23.679 wanted to kind of read this one from a wonderful listener. Renee, 1:38:23.760 --> 1:38:24.080 does this. 1:38:24.080 --> 1:38:26.400 Not us going to the letters now? Then kick it 1:38:26.439 --> 1:38:26.960 off with this? 1:38:27.120 --> 1:38:28.720 Well, you know it's a lot more ating for me, 1:38:28.760 --> 1:38:32.120 but yeah, sure, Hey, Sammy and g it's Renee again. 1:38:32.520 --> 1:38:34.840 Just a quick note. In the Joe Chinkway episode, you 1:38:34.880 --> 1:38:37.840 talked about that terrifying moment of having to call Triple 1:38:37.920 --> 1:38:41.960 zero without knowing the exact address. Not that that was 1:38:42.000 --> 1:38:46.120 her issue, but it's such a real world fear. So 1:38:46.160 --> 1:38:48.719 I want to share a handy tip I learned during 1:38:48.760 --> 1:38:52.000 my first aid course. Thought you might want to share 1:38:52.040 --> 1:38:54.479 it with your listeners. You never know when it might 1:38:54.600 --> 1:38:58.640 save a life. In Australia, there's an app called Emergency 1:38:58.680 --> 1:39:02.880 Plus that uses a system called what three Words, which 1:39:02.960 --> 1:39:07.719 breaks the entire world into tiny three meters squares, each 1:39:07.920 --> 1:39:12.680 identify by a unique three word address. If you call 1:39:12.760 --> 1:39:15.759 Triple zero through the app, you can simply read out 1:39:15.880 --> 1:39:19.639 those three words and the operator will know your exact 1:39:19.880 --> 1:39:24.759 location instantly. If you can also use the three word 1:39:24.840 --> 1:39:28.280 address even if you don't call. Sorry, you can also 1:39:28.400 --> 1:39:31.000 use the three letter word address even if you don't 1:39:31.000 --> 1:39:34.600 call through the app by using the emergency plus. It 1:39:34.680 --> 1:39:38.320 makes it easier because it combines GPS location, what three words, 1:39:38.360 --> 1:39:41.960 and calling Triple zero all in one go. More info 1:39:42.040 --> 1:39:44.519 here and she's put she's put the the yeah, the 1:39:44.600 --> 1:39:46.960 dress below, which I'll put in these show notes stay horrendous, 1:39:47.000 --> 1:39:49.080 Love you guys, R But yeah, but I thought that 1:39:49.200 --> 1:39:51.960 was interesting. Yeah, what an interesting thing? 1:39:52.000 --> 1:39:52.160 Though? 1:39:52.240 --> 1:39:54.439 Was a you know when when you think about how 1:39:54.439 --> 1:39:55.680 long that call talk. 1:39:56.000 --> 1:39:59.000 Well, that's as she said, It wasn't her, that wasn't 1:40:00.080 --> 1:40:00.639 knew the dress. 1:40:01.000 --> 1:40:03.240 Just interesting thing and one thing. Now we're going to 1:40:03.320 --> 1:40:15.320 go to the bag. Thanks everybody for listening to this 1:40:15.360 --> 1:40:21.960 week's episode, stunningly recorded over two parts because geez, goddamn 1:40:22.040 --> 1:40:23.080 phone played up on her. 1:40:23.200 --> 1:40:24.240 You didn't have to tell them. 1:40:24.280 --> 1:40:25.840 I wanted to tell them that we. 1:40:25.840 --> 1:40:27.400 Don't have to be that honest to them. If there's 1:40:27.400 --> 1:40:29.640 anything you want to have to be honest about it. 1:40:29.720 --> 1:40:31.080 I could have dressed the same. 1:40:31.120 --> 1:40:35.320 I could not have. I have a beautiful lifetime black 1:40:35.360 --> 1:40:37.320 pants and white T shirt. I can do that again. 1:40:37.479 --> 1:40:41.680 If we've learned anything from Andrew Fraser is that it's 1:40:41.680 --> 1:40:44.800 you don't need to know the full story to get 1:40:44.800 --> 1:40:49.439 a good story and to be acquitted. So you shouldn't 1:40:49.479 --> 1:40:51.240 have told the listeners we did in two parts because 1:40:51.280 --> 1:40:52.080 my friend stuffed up. 1:40:52.840 --> 1:40:55.040 Okay, well, thank you for telling me that episode in 1:40:55.080 --> 1:40:59.559 two parts too. In two parts. It's such an interesting story. 1:40:59.640 --> 1:41:02.160 It's just so fascinating. It's just one of those ones 1:41:02.200 --> 1:41:06.479 that's like, I don't know, I'm obsessed with them. And yeah, 1:41:06.640 --> 1:41:07.879 Killing Time is amazing. 1:41:08.360 --> 1:41:11.280 I need to watch that. Yeah, how old? Is that serious? 1:41:11.520 --> 1:41:12.080 It's an old one? 1:41:12.400 --> 1:41:15.400 Well yes, well, I mean I am making this up 1:41:15.439 --> 1:41:19.439 here like I'm just guessing. But around about twenty I. 1:41:19.360 --> 1:41:21.920 Love that David when God, I love that day. Yeah, 1:41:21.960 --> 1:41:25.439 diver Dan. He was in Bloody Lord of the Rings. 1:41:25.920 --> 1:41:28.160 Diver Dan was in Lord of the Rings. That was 1:41:28.200 --> 1:41:31.280 his character name, Lord of the Rings, Lord of the Ringsie. 1:41:31.560 --> 1:41:32.720 I kept calling him diver Dan. 1:41:33.040 --> 1:41:33.800 I would have loved that. 1:41:34.040 --> 1:41:37.360 I'm sure are you ready for the mail? 1:41:37.880 --> 1:41:38.479 You know I am. 1:41:38.680 --> 1:41:42.280 We love, we love hearing from you. Please write in 1:41:42.479 --> 1:41:45.479 to Sami at just another company dot com dot au. 1:41:45.560 --> 1:41:49.120 Another way is simply leaving us a voicemail. We call 1:41:49.200 --> 1:41:51.479 that a speak pipe. Are you ready for this? 1:41:51.680 --> 1:41:52.000 Yes? 1:41:52.160 --> 1:41:56.080 This one comes from somebody by the name of Bought 1:41:56.880 --> 1:41:58.720 Ready bought. 1:42:01.880 --> 1:42:07.760 Once again from frigid western North Carolina. As far as 1:42:07.840 --> 1:42:11.880 things go, uh, just reaching out see it if you're 1:42:11.960 --> 1:42:16.800 aware of a story. It's a story about the McDonald 1:42:16.880 --> 1:42:21.360 murders that happened back in the seventies at Fort Bragg. 1:42:21.439 --> 1:42:24.439 That's also in North Carolina, the other side of the state. 1:42:24.680 --> 1:42:29.200 But as far as things go, there's a great book 1:42:29.600 --> 1:42:33.120 called Fatal Vision written by a journalists named Joe McGinnis 1:42:34.560 --> 1:42:36.880 that you should read. I think you guys would have 1:42:37.880 --> 1:42:42.200 at least an interesting time covering it. A little bit 1:42:42.240 --> 1:42:47.040 in controversy that came out after the book was released 1:42:47.080 --> 1:42:50.479 from a journalist named Janet Malcolm. I'm sure that's also 1:42:50.600 --> 1:42:55.880 something that you guys could discuss. But appreciate the podcast. 1:42:56.160 --> 1:42:58.160 You'll be good, be safe, I'll take it easy. 1:42:58.960 --> 1:43:00.639 I'm ubsessed. 1:43:01.479 --> 1:43:03.280 Voice is amazing, amazing. 1:43:03.400 --> 1:43:05.600 I could hear him say, North Carolina. 1:43:05.800 --> 1:43:07.559 Yeah, yeah, day but. 1:43:07.800 --> 1:43:08.720 We love you, my god. 1:43:08.720 --> 1:43:11.240 I love that we have inter It's so good. We 1:43:11.360 --> 1:43:12.320 had to look into that though. 1:43:13.880 --> 1:43:14.360 What a tea? 1:43:14.520 --> 1:43:15.240 Like? What a hook? 1:43:15.360 --> 1:43:15.599 Yeah? 1:43:16.400 --> 1:43:18.040 I mean I'm going to go straight home and research 1:43:18.120 --> 1:43:19.240 both of them now and. 1:43:19.160 --> 1:43:22.519 Bring them to bro. That's all you know about. We've 1:43:22.560 --> 1:43:25.120 got another speak pipe today that comes from someone who 1:43:25.200 --> 1:43:29.519 has voice smiled in before. This is repeat yeah from 1:43:29.600 --> 1:43:31.760 gym Hi. 1:43:34.880 --> 1:43:37.519 I am just calling because I just had the most 1:43:38.040 --> 1:43:42.320 freshening jumps. I got back into my car. 1:43:43.720 --> 1:43:45.080 Take it. 1:43:45.320 --> 1:43:50.160 I was listening to the friend and May West Mary West. 1:43:50.200 --> 1:43:50.679 I think. 1:43:53.320 --> 1:43:55.040 Like i'd stopped it when she was in the car 1:43:55.120 --> 1:43:56.240 class horrific. 1:43:56.880 --> 1:44:01.240 She's five, Oh yeah, subjected to that. But I put 1:44:01.280 --> 1:44:02.759 it back on and. 1:44:02.840 --> 1:44:09.960 It went to the part where you gasped so loudly. 1:44:09.880 --> 1:44:12.400 And so out of the blue. And I had not. 1:44:12.560 --> 1:44:15.880 Under like, like I zoned out because I dropped her 1:44:15.920 --> 1:44:19.600 off and stuff, so I had no understanding of the context. 1:44:19.800 --> 1:44:25.160 My car, my home's still raising so fast, Oh my goodness, 1:44:25.439 --> 1:44:27.680 I was like resting out of the car. 1:44:28.640 --> 1:44:29.479 I just went. 1:44:31.280 --> 1:44:31.599 Away. 1:44:32.520 --> 1:44:36.040 I needed that wake up call. 1:44:36.479 --> 1:44:38.479 Anyways, I love you guys so much. 1:44:38.880 --> 1:44:43.240 Bye, oh my god, jem I do apologize. I listen 1:44:43.320 --> 1:44:45.519 back to our episodes and I hear some of my 1:44:45.560 --> 1:44:47.280 reactions and they're not good. 1:44:47.880 --> 1:44:48.479 You're a gasp. 1:44:50.120 --> 1:44:52.639 I don't have a poker face nor a poker voice. 1:44:52.720 --> 1:44:55.720 It sounds it seems I'm really sorry about the job 1:44:55.720 --> 1:44:58.320 scared Jem, But hey, it's a spooky woekie podcast, so 1:44:58.360 --> 1:45:01.320 you gotta expect these pink are with this from Ryan 1:45:01.720 --> 1:45:02.840 that came from on Instagram. 1:45:03.040 --> 1:45:07.200 On the Eileen Warnos epp, how beautiful people, Happy Monday? 1:45:07.280 --> 1:45:10.719 Just finishing your epp on Eileen Ari. The death penalty 1:45:10.760 --> 1:45:15.000 and extended waiting times, my understanding is there a few 1:45:15.080 --> 1:45:18.920 factors at play. First is that there are automatic appeals 1:45:18.920 --> 1:45:23.559 for death sentences, which obviously take time working through the courts. Secondly, 1:45:23.600 --> 1:45:28.000 and much more confusingly, federal and state laws and individual 1:45:28.080 --> 1:45:32.200 constitutional rights are always brought up what is considered cruel 1:45:32.320 --> 1:45:36.040 and unusual as a means of death, et cetera, et cetera. 1:45:36.200 --> 1:45:40.160 So in every individual case that's argued, well, we brought up. 1:45:40.320 --> 1:45:42.840 Currently, I believe a lot of inmates are waiting on 1:45:42.960 --> 1:45:46.439 death row because there hasn't been a viable chemical option 1:45:46.560 --> 1:45:50.160 for lethal injection. Doctors don't want to play a part 1:45:50.200 --> 1:45:53.479 in it generally, but would be required to, and drug 1:45:53.560 --> 1:45:58.600 manufacturers are also somewhat hesitant to sell drugs specifically for 1:45:58.880 --> 1:45:59.479 death sentence. 1:46:00.000 --> 1:46:01.720 It makes a lot of sad. 1:46:01.240 --> 1:46:04.040 Interesting though, there's so much that goes into it. Yeah. 1:46:04.080 --> 1:46:07.880 Wow's to that Ryan. That's amazing. I was saying, why 1:46:07.880 --> 1:46:10.280 do people always live on death row for so long? 1:46:10.400 --> 1:46:10.719 Yeah? 1:46:10.800 --> 1:46:11.719 And we actually got names. 1:46:12.320 --> 1:46:15.040 People are listening, who are listening, And we've got this one. 1:46:15.080 --> 1:46:17.880 I'll land on this one from Renee. Hey, Sammy and 1:46:17.960 --> 1:46:20.200 g It's Renee from Sydney, the woman who had the 1:46:20.240 --> 1:46:23.479 frog appear on her fence during the Muppet reference. Oh 1:46:23.840 --> 1:46:28.200 look Hermie. My Spotify wrap twenty and twenty five just 1:46:28.280 --> 1:46:31.759 dropped and guess who's it? The top YouTube? Yeah, photo attached, 1:46:31.800 --> 1:46:33.760 just proof and you attached quite a few photos there. 1:46:33.920 --> 1:46:37.880 It's so good. Please keep being your amazing selves, you guys. 1:46:38.000 --> 1:46:41.719 Rock Mondays and Thursdays are quickly becoming my favorite days 1:46:41.840 --> 1:46:45.360 of the week. Also side note, I sometimes listen to 1:46:45.360 --> 1:46:48.519 your episodes out of order, depending on the length. I say, 1:46:48.600 --> 1:46:51.639 the longer ones the house work, and honestly it makes 1:46:51.680 --> 1:46:55.240 my weekends so much better. I recently listened to the 1:46:55.280 --> 1:46:58.679 episode where you talked about the host a murder game 1:46:58.840 --> 1:47:02.040 missing pieces. Yeah, and I thought you'd appreciate this story. 1:47:02.520 --> 1:47:05.160 My parents hosted a host murder party for their combined 1:47:05.200 --> 1:47:09.559 birthdays and the whole family traveled for it, costumes and all. 1:47:09.680 --> 1:47:12.160 To make it more dramatic, we made a body out 1:47:12.200 --> 1:47:15.639 of stockings, foam and balloons, dressed it up and threw 1:47:15.680 --> 1:47:18.880 it in the pool. Oh this isn't amazing. We did 1:47:18.920 --> 1:47:21.439 have to warn all the neighbors out of time so 1:47:21.479 --> 1:47:24.400 they wouldn't spot a body floating from their windows and 1:47:24.439 --> 1:47:28.600 call emergency services. Thankfully, the party went off without a 1:47:28.720 --> 1:47:31.920 hitch and without any lights or sirens. Oh my god, 1:47:32.280 --> 1:47:35.040 keep being amazing and I hope you both have a 1:47:35.080 --> 1:47:39.200 wonderful festive season. It's almost time for a Muppet Christmas 1:47:39.200 --> 1:47:43.720 Carol stay horrendous Renee from Sydney and she listened to 1:47:44.000 --> 1:47:48.040 five thousand, eight hundred and eighty three minutes This year 1:47:48.200 --> 1:47:52.960 of us we are the top above the Daily Oz Whatever, 1:47:53.000 --> 1:47:58.120 the Teacher's Back, the Teachers Trial and Unravel whoa top podcast? 1:47:58.120 --> 1:48:00.240 How amazing is that? That's a lot of us and we, 1:48:00.680 --> 1:48:04.040 Oh my god, how good is that? 1:48:04.080 --> 1:48:06.680 I love that so many of you messaged us with 1:48:06.800 --> 1:48:10.639 us in your top five ranking and Spotify we love it. Hey, Sam, 1:48:10.640 --> 1:48:12.719 I didn't ask you what was your top artist and your. 1:48:12.560 --> 1:48:16.640 Top song mister Higgins? Really yeah, mister Higgins and a 1:48:16.720 --> 1:48:19.520 billy ocean with a big big artists. 1:48:19.680 --> 1:48:21.640 Yours obviously the Hamilton. 1:48:22.840 --> 1:48:24.720 Listening Agent sixty seven, I think it was. 1:48:24.800 --> 1:48:28.879 Mine was twenty six, so young and higher. 1:48:29.520 --> 1:48:31.320 You are actually love. 1:48:31.680 --> 1:48:34.520 I'm sexy, I'm cute. Well I'm popular too, bood. 1:48:34.479 --> 1:48:35.240 That's red food. 1:48:35.560 --> 1:48:35.840 Yep. 1:48:36.120 --> 1:48:41.519 Can I ask you this question? G love hearing from wonderful, 1:48:41.520 --> 1:48:44.800 wonderful people on Instagram dot com. We got a huge 1:48:44.800 --> 1:48:49.000 celebrity follow recently. I'm just gonna oh my god, yes, 1:48:49.080 --> 1:48:53.360 I'm gonna say a huge celebrity follow recently. I had 1:48:53.400 --> 1:48:56.240 someone right in and say, hey, there was a reference 1:48:56.280 --> 1:48:57.800 that you made in the episode. I have to send 1:48:57.840 --> 1:49:00.840 it to this person because I know them. They sent 1:49:01.080 --> 1:49:04.120 the episode. I found it because the great thing you 1:49:04.240 --> 1:49:06.800 level to this about our Spotify is it. 1:49:07.160 --> 1:49:10.000 Story has been told perfectly, but it's got the markers. 1:49:10.240 --> 1:49:12.080 So I can just go on, Fine, what we're talking 1:49:12.080 --> 1:49:13.760 about in that time, which is great because we don't 1:49:13.800 --> 1:49:14.040 do that. 1:49:14.439 --> 1:49:18.439 Tell me who this this person said, I'm a listener 1:49:18.680 --> 1:49:22.480 of yours, and I remember in one of the episodes 1:49:22.640 --> 1:49:24.879 you were talking about bin Boy. 1:49:25.880 --> 1:49:27.720 For those of you who don't know, first of all, 1:49:27.720 --> 1:49:29.599 go back and god damn list see under Godamn Rock. 1:49:30.400 --> 1:49:35.439 Sammy his corporate job. His title is bid manager. A 1:49:35.479 --> 1:49:40.479 friend of his sincerely thought he said bin manager, and 1:49:40.479 --> 1:49:43.439 then he was working with Bins in his corporate office. 1:49:44.000 --> 1:49:46.040 That was very funny. Obviously now we call him the 1:49:46.080 --> 1:49:50.280 bin Manager. We saw a garbage truck drive past one 1:49:50.360 --> 1:49:54.040 day that said one eight hundred bin Boy, and it 1:49:54.160 --> 1:49:57.479 had like follow us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, which we 1:49:57.520 --> 1:50:00.759 thought was hilarious. Went on YouTube. There are just videos 1:50:01.040 --> 1:50:07.000 following this garbage man around doing and we discussed this 1:50:07.040 --> 1:50:08.960 on the podcast. One day, we got a message on 1:50:08.960 --> 1:50:12.600 instagram dot com at not Another Crime podcast saying, my 1:50:12.800 --> 1:50:15.679 friend is bin Boy. 1:50:16.320 --> 1:50:18.200 That's why I need. 1:50:17.920 --> 1:50:21.720 To play him this snippet of the episode. I said, Hi, 1:50:22.000 --> 1:50:24.559 thanks for following, send him the whole episode, make him 1:50:24.600 --> 1:50:26.719 listen to the whole back catalog. Please tell a friend, 1:50:26.920 --> 1:50:29.400 leave a five star rating, five star review, and then you. 1:50:29.479 --> 1:50:36.000 Sammy kindly sent her the snippet and bin Boy himself 1:50:36.280 --> 1:50:41.000 one eight hundred bin Boy followed us on Instagram. 1:50:42.439 --> 1:50:44.080 Absolutely huge. 1:50:44.240 --> 1:50:52.479 It's huge versus Sammy's career, idol news and his what 1:50:52.520 --> 1:50:53.280 do you call person? 1:50:53.320 --> 1:50:53.559 You like? 1:50:53.600 --> 1:50:56.800 Look up to him, want to be like mentor hero. 1:50:57.680 --> 1:51:00.280 I don't have anyone like that in my life. I 1:51:00.320 --> 1:51:01.320 am that for myself. 1:51:01.400 --> 1:51:04.400 Okay, look in the mirror and tell yourself you're beautiful. 1:51:04.479 --> 1:51:08.320 Thank you. I will bin Boy if you're listening, we 1:51:08.439 --> 1:51:13.920 are big fans and also apparently allegedly some of the 1:51:13.960 --> 1:51:17.679 YouTube videos now even have speaking yes. 1:51:17.880 --> 1:51:20.640 Yeah. 1:51:20.680 --> 1:51:23.080 And one of our friends, Franny, who listens to this 1:51:23.160 --> 1:51:25.880 as well, when we discuss Binboy in the first place, 1:51:25.960 --> 1:51:29.840 she said, my three year old son is exactly who 1:51:29.840 --> 1:51:32.519 these bin Boy videos are for. He's obsessed with them. 1:51:32.960 --> 1:51:35.120 It's so good to know there's young bin boys out there. 1:51:35.120 --> 1:51:35.680 That's what I want to know. 1:51:35.840 --> 1:51:37.639 He's exciting for you, and you can be the mentor 1:51:37.680 --> 1:51:39.400 and the hero to Franny's son. 1:51:39.600 --> 1:51:43.360 That's lovely to say, that's lovely to say. Hate everyone 1:51:43.640 --> 1:51:49.879 for listening. We told you how to write into ards leader. Yeah, 1:51:49.920 --> 1:51:51.840 and as always, as we say before we do the 1:51:51.840 --> 1:51:52.880 poor repeave as always. 1:51:53.200 --> 1:51:55.840 I know, but then people think if wrapping up the episode. 1:51:55.479 --> 1:51:59.360 And they'll turn off everyone watch on YouTube. That is 1:51:59.400 --> 1:52:01.000 great if you want on YouTube. 1:52:00.720 --> 1:52:02.240 And then you can watch Binboy afterwards. 1:52:02.280 --> 1:52:04.840 That's right. Thank you Oliver Clark as always for doing 1:52:04.960 --> 1:52:07.120 the goddamn theme music. Thank you for Tams and Hayes 1:52:07.320 --> 1:52:10.000 for doing the Artworkly a five star rating, five star 1:52:10.080 --> 1:52:12.720 review and share this podcast with a friend, tag us 1:52:12.760 --> 1:52:15.639 on social media the morning. Come on, move on. 1:52:15.720 --> 1:52:17.200 You're just trying to think of a poor drypeat. 1:52:17.240 --> 1:52:17.560 I don't know. 1:52:17.960 --> 1:52:20.720 I know I could tell you a padding. Mine is 1:52:20.800 --> 1:52:22.920 plane related because we were on a plane to Tazzy. 1:52:24.360 --> 1:52:28.600 It is people who put their aeroplane chairs back on 1:52:28.720 --> 1:52:32.439 a one hour flight. Don't like it, don't The planes 1:52:32.479 --> 1:52:35.719 are so small. If you need to sleep on that flight, 1:52:35.800 --> 1:52:37.559 that's fine. But if you're that tired that you need 1:52:37.600 --> 1:52:39.920 to sleep in that one hour less than one hour, 1:52:40.160 --> 1:52:41.880 you don't need to put your chair back for it 1:52:41.880 --> 1:52:44.080 doesn't do anything and it just makes a person behind 1:52:44.120 --> 1:52:45.080 you very uncomp Okay. 1:52:44.920 --> 1:52:47.720 Well, mine is the people that put the window thing 1:52:47.840 --> 1:52:51.559 down on the way over. I had someone that put 1:52:51.600 --> 1:52:53.599 the window down. It was one hour flight. 1:52:53.840 --> 1:52:56.759 Maybe they were hot from the sun through the window. 1:52:57.000 --> 1:52:58.400 It was late in the days. 1:52:59.040 --> 1:53:01.920 Then grow up to grow up and grow up window people. 1:53:02.960 --> 1:53:04.880 And I was in the window on the way did 1:53:04.920 --> 1:53:06.519 you do it? Next to me had that No, I'd 1:53:06.520 --> 1:53:08.160 never I never put it down. The girls next to 1:53:08.200 --> 1:53:09.800 me had some dakyries on the way over. What do 1:53:09.800 --> 1:53:15.840 you mean that dakeriesries? Domestic lackyries? O. Yeah, and they're 1:53:15.880 --> 1:53:18.720 on schoolies. I'm pretty sure that that's amazing. When Dick 1:53:18.800 --> 1:53:20.840 had a lovely dogs who's very excited all weekend. 1:53:21.040 --> 1:53:24.320 Oh, he's absolutely zonked down because he played with busy 1:53:24.360 --> 1:53:27.080 Bee for a while. Busy Bee, there is a crime 1:53:27.120 --> 1:53:31.919 scene around. There is like literally toy fluff scattered everywhere. 1:53:32.000 --> 1:53:35.639 Oh god, Digs absolutely rocking it. Anyway, everybody will see 1:53:35.680 --> 1:53:38.920 you on Thursday. Love you all. Goodbye or your beautiful 1:53:38.960 --> 1:53:39.960 set of the Mirror Bye,