Speaker 1: Andrew Fraser is a name you might remember if you're
Speaker 1: a longtime listener of Nonother Crime podcast, or if you
Speaker 1: just listened to the Peter Dubass episode. Now, in that episode,
Speaker 1: I mentioned that the man who eventually took down serial
Speaker 1: murderer Peter du Pass for his third life sentence was
Speaker 1: once a prominent lawyer. This is his story, dum. It
Speaker 1: is a tale of a man who flew too close
Speaker 1: to the sun, a man who was once one of,
Speaker 1: if not the top, or certainly most notorious criminal defense
Speaker 1: lawyers in Melbourne. Oh wow, and how Andrew Fraser ended
Speaker 1: up behind bars himself to be the one to whom
Speaker 1: Peter du Pass would confess. Wow? How much do you
Speaker 1: know about this story?
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about this. It's apart from what
Speaker 2: you already told me, you know in the PAS episode.
Speaker 1: That's what you call a little teas Ah.
Speaker 2: You call it a little teas Hey there, everybody, welcome
Speaker 2: to Not Another Crime Podcast. I'm Georgia Love, I'm Sammy Peterson.
Speaker 2: I'm a journalist, I am not and I do you
Speaker 2: know what if you'll just skip ahead and listen to
Speaker 2: the story, all you have to do is go to
Speaker 2: the show notes and look at the time stamp. You'll
Speaker 2: find all you need.
Speaker 1: That's right, But we do have a crime update before
Speaker 1: we do, if you want to hang around for that.
Speaker 1: There has been an update in the Deisi Freeman search. Yes,
Speaker 1: so you did the story on that. This is the
Speaker 1: fifty six year old sovereign citizen who is suspected of
Speaker 1: being the person who shot dead two police officers por
Speaker 1: Punker in Regional Victoria in August of this year, twenty five.
Speaker 1: He took off into the bush that day after shooting
Speaker 1: three police officers, two of them fatally, and hasn't been
Speaker 1: seen since nowadays.
Speaker 2: It's been such a long time months.
Speaker 1: And not a single sighting of him. Police have been
Speaker 1: searching for him ever since. They have conducted a number
Speaker 1: of really targeted searchers in certain areas, and just a
Speaker 1: couple of days ago they released a statement that they
Speaker 1: had conducted a five day targeted search of an area
Speaker 1: of less than one square kilometer of dense bushland on
Speaker 1: Mount Buffalo, which is near Paupunka. They had the specialized
Speaker 1: search teams, detectives, search and rescue and cadaver dogs and
Speaker 1: they confirmed that they were in this case searching for his.
Speaker 2: Remains, So I guess enough time has passed that they're
Speaker 2: now going Well, who knows what happened he is Probably we.
Speaker 1: Don't reason why they're searching. They've said they're searching for
Speaker 1: his remains and should sap top. They didn't find anything,
Speaker 1: so there's still no site of him or remains or anything.
Speaker 1: Now we don't and probably will never or may never
Speaker 1: know why they have moved on to the search for
Speaker 1: remains and why that specific area very much. My own
Speaker 1: hypothesis is to think if they were searching a very
Speaker 1: specific area and have now because they've searched that specific
Speaker 1: spot before and they said at the time they were
Speaker 1: looking for an armed potential shooter. Yep, this time they've
Speaker 1: said they were looking for his body. It seems to
Speaker 1: me they've somehow got intelligence that whether it is that
Speaker 1: he has said said to someone in the past, if
Speaker 1: I were ever to know go and off myself, I
Speaker 1: would do it here, whether maybe he'd been sighted there
Speaker 1: or heard there and not since. But for whatever reason
Speaker 1: that we may never know, that specific area is where
Speaker 1: they believe his remains to and they still weren't able
Speaker 1: to find anything. Now this area for anyone going what
Speaker 1: do you mean, Like, how could they not have a
Speaker 1: five days searching a specific area with kadava dogs. But
Speaker 1: it is dance dance dance bushland. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of like underground kind of caves, really hilly mountainous areas.
Speaker 1: Like he really he could be anywhere. He could have
Speaker 1: gone deep into a cave and taken his own life.
Speaker 1: He could have you know, been taken by the wild
Speaker 1: animals or anything. But yeah, they did confirm they're looking
Speaker 1: for his body.
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard like a man hunt like that
Speaker 2: before for someone that's just never been found, Like a
Speaker 2: man hunt for someone I can't remember anything where it's
Speaker 2: been like a man hunt for someone that did something
Speaker 2: like that, you know, who allegedly did something like this
Speaker 2: and then just hasn't been found. It seems so nuts
Speaker 2: for someone.
Speaker 1: I mean, the ones I can the only ones I
Speaker 1: can think of. They I'm thinking of them because they
Speaker 1: then have been found. So Tony Mockbell, who was a
Speaker 1: very prominent person of the Melbourne Underground gangland War, which
Speaker 1: comes up in today's episode. He was on the run
Speaker 1: for many years and was found years later in Greece,
Speaker 1: like there are in the musical Yes in the musical
Speaker 1: Grease hiding in plain sight playing rizzo.
Speaker 2: Yes so much. That's right, that's right.
Speaker 1: There are worse things I could do. Tony Bockbell sings
Speaker 1: about his drug that's quite funny. There are lots of people.
Speaker 1: There was one I remember covering a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: I remember covering it. I don't remember the details, but
Speaker 1: a man who had been on Australia's Most wanted list
Speaker 1: for like a decade or something like that was found
Speaker 1: hiding out in like a remote house in the Northern
Speaker 1: Territory or remote Queensland or something like. There are many, many,
Speaker 1: many fugitives at any given time. This one is so
Speaker 1: prominent because he shot and killed two police officers, and
Speaker 1: sadly it sounds like, or it feels like, he may
Speaker 1: never be found, which is awful for everyone involved. It
Speaker 1: is so horrendous in the true meaning of the word,
Speaker 1: for those police officers, families, for all their colleagues, that
Speaker 1: they can't get justice for that, that they're not seeing
Speaker 1: someone taken down for that. It's just awful in every way.
Speaker 2: Well, even like this year, there was talk of a
Speaker 2: man who had gone on the run with he'd taken
Speaker 2: two of his kids and New Zealand and they've been
Speaker 2: missing for something like four years or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they were found like living like camping out
Speaker 1: in the bush.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they shot him.
Speaker 1: There's lots of cases violent fugitives as well.
Speaker 2: That would be an interesting story to do it, something
Speaker 2: that would be all right, retract all of that more,
Speaker 2: go back contract all the time.
Speaker 1: That would have sounded beautiful and everybody.
Speaker 2: Everybody walking to not another Yeah, but it is so
Speaker 2: it is so interesting to look at the Desert Freeman
Speaker 2: case because just you know, we're probably not going to
Speaker 2: find out a lot of the information that you know,
Speaker 2: the police have been. I know that because I don't
Speaker 2: know if they were brought in the army because that
Speaker 2: was yes, they did, Oh they did, they did, because
Speaker 2: that was a big thing to actually escalate. There was.
Speaker 1: I will have said the correct number in the episode
Speaker 1: we did, but I believe it was seven hundred or
Speaker 1: seven to nine hundred people actively searching for about two
Speaker 1: weeks before it was the search was scaled back a bit,
Speaker 1: but yeah, huge, huge, huge. There is still a one
Speaker 1: million dollar reward remaining for evidence that leads to a
Speaker 1: conviction for those officers debts, but it sounds like, I mean,
Speaker 1: it feels like a big thing for police to concede
Speaker 1: that they were looking for his remains even.
Speaker 2: Absolutely well, thank you Jeeve for the update on Deisi Freeman.
Speaker 1: And the only other crime update I have for you
Speaker 1: is guess what dropped on streaming service stan? Oh?
Speaker 2: I saw I saw the death cart.
Speaker 1: Two and three of the Aaron Patterson slash Mushroom Lady
Speaker 1: documentary on stan that One of our beautiful listeners messaged
Speaker 1: us today and said, the power of the pod. You
Speaker 1: two have obviously bullied them releasing them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we haven't watched them yet. He's called death caps
Speaker 2: or something, isn't it. It's like that. That's really interesting
Speaker 2: because it took such a long time for it hasn't
Speaker 2: really but I mean for a documentary, but it is
Speaker 2: interesting that it just came out now. Yeah. I'm fascinated
Speaker 2: to watch the next two parts of it too. There's
Speaker 2: only a three part series. Yeah, and they are making
Speaker 2: a TV show of the Mushroom Killers.
Speaker 1: Follow here like they will always going.
Speaker 2: Of course, of course it's already cast in everything.
Speaker 1: I feel like they'll have to put it off for
Speaker 1: a while though, because she's been allowed to launch an appeal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, what does that mean that now she's got
Speaker 2: she she.
Speaker 1: Has I think it's up to twelve months. Oh sorry, no,
Speaker 1: she has. She has log lodged an appeal with the
Speaker 1: Appeals Court of Victoria. We did, I can't remember which
Speaker 1: episode it. Well, sorry if you guys haven't heard that
Speaker 1: one yet. I spoke about it at the top of
Speaker 1: one of the episodes recently, about the grounds of the
Speaker 1: appeal that she is saying. She her lawyers are saying
Speaker 1: she should not have been found guilty.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so the appeals court has said, okay, yes,
Speaker 1: we'll hear that, and then the finding of that will
Speaker 1: depend whether she gets a retrail or anything like that.
Speaker 1: But it will probably take up to a year for
Speaker 1: just the hearing in the appeals court.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, So mark my words, dear listeners, don't you worry
Speaker 1: your pretty little heads. We will bring you all the
Speaker 1: updates to that.
Speaker 2: It's beautiful little heads, didn't she before we get into
Speaker 2: the episode today? How has your god?
Speaker 1: You know it's been good.
Speaker 2: I know it's been good.
Speaker 1: Because I went to Tasmania. Who else went to Tasmania?
Speaker 2: I went to Oh my god, we both went at
Speaker 2: the same time. Didn't see each other.
Speaker 1: I heard you were there.
Speaker 2: Refused to see each other off mine, refused to record
Speaker 2: anything there. We record an episode that you would have
Speaker 2: listened to already with the great great Elizabeth Lame from
Speaker 2: a podcast I'm hoping you've already listened to, called Beth's Dead.
Speaker 2: And we had to get up because of the LA
Speaker 2: time difference. We had to get up very early and
Speaker 2: do it. We were excited to do it anyway, but
Speaker 2: we actually had a big night to night before.
Speaker 1: We had a few wines, a few wines with our
Speaker 1: friend Disco.
Speaker 2: That's amazing to see disco.
Speaker 1: It was amazing to see disco. Yeah, it was. It
Speaker 1: was a great time. I goddamn love Tasmania. I lived
Speaker 1: there for years and I visit often. But I realized
Speaker 1: I hadn't been down in a long time, so it
Speaker 1: was my first visit in a while, and I just
Speaker 1: loved it. The weather turned on for us. We stayed
Speaker 1: in a beautiful hotel called Crown Plaza, but we had
Speaker 1: delicious food. I went to work. I worked from the
Speaker 1: radio there. It was just fantastic. I was a bit
Speaker 1: depressed to come home.
Speaker 2: Actually, well, that's nice. We went to the we went
Speaker 2: to the market, the Selamonka market. Of course, it was
Speaker 2: just the best. It was so good. I got Digs
Speaker 2: a beautiful toy.
Speaker 1: How did that go? Tell the listeners?
Speaker 2: Doesn't go too well. It was a B soft, too
Speaker 2: soft toy, which, if you've ever seen best in show,
Speaker 2: I call it the busy Bee because there's a whole,
Speaker 2: the whole through line of that is this dog, the
Speaker 2: dog obsessed. People that are overly obsessed with their dogs
Speaker 2: and believe that this dog owned the responds to his
Speaker 2: B busy bee toy and got Digs one of those
Speaker 2: from a toy shop that was for kids, and I
Speaker 2: the guy was very excited to sell it, probably thinking
Speaker 2: that I had.
Speaker 1: A beautiful definitely think it was for a child.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely think it was for a child.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me now? I want us to say
Speaker 1: it at the same time, so we'll see so the
Speaker 1: listener doesn't think we're exaggerating. I'll countdown three to one.
Speaker 1: But the question is how long after handing the toy
Speaker 1: over to Digs, had he ripped it ready? Three? Two?
Speaker 2: One?
Speaker 1: Twenty seconds?
Speaker 2: Okay? Well yeah, well yeah, twenty seconds is immediately.
Speaker 1: He ran over to his bed, with it in his
Speaker 1: mouth and immediately.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you think we're going to get the same then?
Speaker 1: Well, like because if you'd said like twenty seconds, that
Speaker 1: would have sounded like an eager So the listener knows
Speaker 1: it's true. It was that quick.
Speaker 2: If I sit you up and I went four hours, yeah.
Speaker 1: You may have that kind of thing you would do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he ripped it apart. And he's got some great
Speaker 2: gin as well. Didn't you just gin?
Speaker 1: We're having it right now. Yeah, it's from Taylor and
Speaker 1: something I can't with it, Taylor Swift. I think gin.
Speaker 1: There's so many gin and whiskey distilleries and it was
Speaker 1: so good. But there's this one that makes a honey gin.
Speaker 1: So it's infused with natural honey and it's so with
Speaker 1: the busy bear very tazzy was beautiful and I loved it.
Speaker 1: Did you love it?
Speaker 2: Absolutely loved that A great time was there for two nights.
Speaker 2: It was just so so lovely the same time, you
Speaker 2: can't not enjoy Tasmania. I just love it.
Speaker 1: And and the AFL football team for Tasmania was approved
Speaker 1: because they approved meil of the stadium. This is such
Speaker 1: local news. Sorry, yeah, but excited an af football team
Speaker 1: in their exciting Yeah excited?
Speaker 2: Gee? Are you ready to get into this week's episode?
Speaker 1: Are you? Because I've been teasing this story for ages.
Speaker 1: It's one of my favorite stories.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've.
Speaker 1: Been teasing it to you for a while. It is
Speaker 1: about Andrew Fraser, as you know from the intro. But
Speaker 1: the reason I've been You've been wanting me to do
Speaker 1: this for so long because I told you that David
Speaker 1: Wenham starred in a show about Andrew Fraser, and you
Speaker 1: love David Wenne but had not seen the show, and
Speaker 1: I've stopped you. I've banned you from watch the story
Speaker 1: on the pod. So I'm going to tell you the
Speaker 1: story today and then you can go and enjoy the
Speaker 1: Dawnam Show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you also have to listen to the p
Speaker 2: to Do Pass episode where Andrew Craser is brought up
Speaker 2: in that episode.
Speaker 1: That's right. Much to get through?
Speaker 2: Much to get through. If you want to leave us
Speaker 2: an email, you can do that Sammy at Justnothercompany dot
Speaker 2: com dot au leave us a voicemail. All the links
Speaker 2: are in the show notes. We call it a speak
Speaker 2: pipe and we'll.
Speaker 1: Play it on in our mail bag section at the end.
Speaker 2: Of the podcast. Will leave a five star rating. Leave
Speaker 2: a five star review. The more you review, the more
Speaker 2: you rate the podcast, the more the algorithm boosts it
Speaker 2: and we get out there to more people.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and you can follow us on Instagram and
Speaker 1: tik dot plaars at not another crime podcast.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, let's get into this week's episode.
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Andrew Roderick Fraser was born in nineteen
Speaker 1: fifty one to a comfortable middle class family in Melbourne, Australia.
Speaker 2: And Roderick as well. That's such an interesting name, isn't it.
Speaker 1: It feels very kind of old English. Yeah, family name.
Speaker 1: He went to Wesley College and went on to marry
Speaker 1: and have two children.
Speaker 2: So Wesley College is quite a fancy school in Melbourne,
Speaker 2: isn't it very expensive?
Speaker 1: Yeah? It's a private grammar school.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, with.
Speaker 1: Boys and girls. He was a good student, but not
Speaker 1: a great one. He was one of those kids who
Speaker 1: was naturally clever, but he didn't put in a whole
Speaker 1: heap of work. Sure, he loved an argument, so becoming
Speaker 1: a lawyer seems to fit absolutely. He also really loved
Speaker 1: the idea of money, and in particular having lots of it. Sure,
Speaker 1: he was described by the script writer on what would
Speaker 1: later become a TV series about his life as being
Speaker 1: a man with a strong streak of narcissism, he was
Speaker 1: drawn to the law because it was a fast track
Speaker 1: to social and financial success.
Speaker 2: Wow, okay, were his parents lawyers or anything as well?
Speaker 1: I didn't find anything on what his parents did, but
Speaker 1: they were well off enough that the kids went to
Speaker 1: private school.
Speaker 2: They were the Wiggles, that's.
Speaker 1: Right, their time before they gave birth in nineteen fifty one.
Speaker 2: Beautiful.
Speaker 1: Now, he obviously did get into law, because that's where
Speaker 1: this story is going, but he only passed by one percent.
Speaker 1: You know, a pass is a pass. But just to
Speaker 1: how far he gets in law and how prominent he was,
Speaker 1: it's interesting that he just scraped through.
Speaker 2: Is that like ninety like you know something that people
Speaker 2: were quite high to get into.
Speaker 1: Law, to get into yeah, exactly. Now, his teachers and
Speaker 1: classmates probably didn't expect him to go on to become
Speaker 1: the big name in law that he inevitably would, all right.
Speaker 1: One thing he did have in spades was doggedness. He
Speaker 1: treated every client as the most important client he could
Speaker 1: or would ever have, and made sure he was available
Speaker 1: to them at any and every moment they might want him.
Speaker 2: That's a pretty good It's a good quality to have
Speaker 2: in someone.
Speaker 1: It was very much. He was like, I mean, I'll
Speaker 1: do anything to make the most money that I can.
Speaker 1: So if I'm the most available, the more people will
Speaker 1: hire me. I will work.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: This is how he became so popular and yes, very
Speaker 1: very wealthy. He would turn up to court to represent
Speaker 1: the pits of society. His words, not mine. He was
Speaker 1: truly representing some heinous people in a Mercedes Benz convertible
Speaker 1: at first, later to be replaced.
Speaker 2: By a Porsche Oh wow.
Speaker 1: He aligned himself to professional criminals and said, I'm in
Speaker 1: your camp. I make house calls twenty four hours a day,
Speaker 1: and I will get a magistrate out of bed at two.
Speaker 2: Am for you if I have to right her.
Speaker 1: Magistrate, I implore you wake up. But in doing this
Speaker 1: he very much alienated himself from the other side, the police,
Speaker 1: all right, and they ended up loathing him because he
Speaker 1: wasn't only successful in court, he also seems to carry
Speaker 1: it on outside the court. His attitude was that this
Speaker 1: was a game and he was able to win it.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: He wasn't just about justice, he was about winning this
Speaker 1: will become quite evident. He would live by the line
Speaker 1: you never ask your clients if they're guilty or not sure, so.
Speaker 2: You don't know you're not liable in any way.
Speaker 1: You never ask. And I heard him say this many
Speaker 1: times in different interviews when I was researching this. His job,
Speaker 1: as can be argued, of course, is the job of
Speaker 1: every defense lawyer, was presuming innocence and make sure only
Speaker 1: the cases with strong enough evidence proven beyond reasonable doubt
Speaker 1: would go down. But this often perhaps went a little
Speaker 1: too far. He had a lot of clients, obviously, but
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk today about the three or at
Speaker 1: least three of the most prominent ones for which he
Speaker 1: became infamous and inevitably led to his downfall.
Speaker 2: Wow. Okay.
Speaker 1: The first is a name, a man by the name
Speaker 1: of Dennis Allen aka missed a Death. Have you heard
Speaker 1: of him?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: He was a violent and depraved drug dealer who dipped
Speaker 1: into his own supply coming heavily addicted himself. This only
Speaker 1: made him even more erratic than he was already. He
Speaker 1: was the eldest son of criminal matriarch Kath Petting Girl. Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: which I feel like anyone from Melbourne will recognize that name.
Speaker 1: It is one of the most infamous and notorious names
Speaker 1: in Melbourne crime. Her family, family, family, Her family is
Speaker 1: inarguably evil and very dangerous. And I'll go into some
Speaker 1: of this family a bit later on cath Petting Girl
Speaker 1: brought her son, her first son, Dennis Allen, to see
Speaker 1: Andrew Fraser when he was in his twenties, and they
Speaker 1: had a lot of cash to spend, so spend it
Speaker 1: on Fraser they did. Alan was a major drug dealer
Speaker 1: in inner city Melbourne, mostly working around Richmond and South
Speaker 1: Era during the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 2: You've got to have your beat, I feel like when
Speaker 2: you're working in the underground as well, you've got to
Speaker 2: have your beat. Like exactly a lot of people know about,
Speaker 2: like you know, the kind of a Carlton, you know,
Speaker 2: crimes around that Rome and the crew.
Speaker 1: Will come up as well. It's a very Melbourne story,
Speaker 1: No I like it. It's full shadow. So one of
Speaker 1: the things, I mean, there's lots of stuff about this
Speaker 1: horrible man. One of the things that kind of comes
Speaker 1: up again and again is that he lived his house
Speaker 1: in Richmond backed onto the train line and back in
Speaker 1: those days, trains had windows that you could put up
Speaker 1: and down. So he would have his drug runners throw
Speaker 1: the drugs out of the train window into his backyard.
Speaker 2: Doctor Death, not Andrew Fras, No, no, no.
Speaker 1: He said, we're all on Dennis, and he would do that,
Speaker 1: so you know, it was never seen going in and
Speaker 1: out of his front front door. I should certainly, my god,
Speaker 1: fish good. The money he made from drugs, he set
Speaker 1: up brothels and massage parlors in inverted commas, and he
Speaker 1: paid off police. There was a lot of corruption around
Speaker 1: him these days.
Speaker 2: Also, can I just say that massage parlors. A friend
Speaker 2: of mine went to a massage parlor the other day
Speaker 2: and the end got offered an extra service.
Speaker 1: And I went to like what he thought was just
Speaker 1: like a spa day spar or knew it was.
Speaker 2: It was no, no, it was a massage place to
Speaker 2: get like you had like bad knees and got like
Speaker 2: a massage and got offered an extra service at the end.
Speaker 2: Was like, that's so interesting because it is hard, I reckon,
Speaker 2: I don't. I've never really had a message before.
Speaker 1: That's why he was offered.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but also like yeah, I get that, and I
Speaker 2: like that. I love that. Okay, I think what you did.
Speaker 2: It was amazing then, because I think it is a
Speaker 2: thing that probably people know, like the unspoken thing of
Speaker 2: going oh I can go here they call a happy ending,
Speaker 2: But how would you know, like if it.
Speaker 1: Like, no, there's like an unwritten rules. The ones that
Speaker 1: have the flash neon open.
Speaker 2: Signs, ah really and that have like.
Speaker 1: You can't see through the windows because they're all covered
Speaker 1: with like the signage.
Speaker 2: Sure okay, shoes hanging out the.
Speaker 1: Drug dealers like Dennis Allen. A right, So I've got
Speaker 1: a quote here from Andrew Fraser talking about Dennis Allen.
Speaker 1: He would buy heroine and crush it and flatten it,
Speaker 1: then cover it in glad rap and hang it on
Speaker 1: the clothesline in the backyard with a douna over it
Speaker 1: like a quilt cover. He would then crank the line
Speaker 1: up high so it was well above any dogs that
Speaker 1: the police might bring in. So he was drying out
Speaker 1: his drugs in plain sight cover. His other treat This
Speaker 1: is still Fraser talking about him. His other trick was
Speaker 1: to buy a heap of potted azaleas, pull them, pull
Speaker 1: them out of the pot, stick the gear in the
Speaker 1: bottom of the pot, then put the plant back in
Speaker 1: and bury the pot in the garden, so it just
Speaker 1: looked as if it was growing in the ground. Sure,
Speaker 1: with guns, he would dig a hole up against the
Speaker 1: boundary fence and then go side like dig under sideways
Speaker 1: into his neighbour's yard to bury the gun that way.
Speaker 1: If police ever dug it up, exactly under the adience.
Speaker 1: If the police ever dull it to you, thank you,
Speaker 1: dig you Soliah. That could be the name of a dog.
Speaker 1: If police dug it up, he would prove that it
Speaker 1: wasn't on his property.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, that's pretty clever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're not giving advice here, We're just talking about
Speaker 1: the crimes of someone.
Speaker 2: Yes, no advice. Now.
Speaker 1: One major crime he was convicted of, and there are
Speaker 1: so many, but one of the major ones was a
Speaker 1: rape in the nineteen seventies for which he served a
Speaker 1: ten year prison sentence. This hardened him significantly. After his
Speaker 1: release from this sentence, he was suspected of being involved
Speaker 1: in up to thirteen some reports says many as fifteen murders.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay.
Speaker 1: One of his most heinous crimes was the mo of
Speaker 1: former Hell's Angels Biky Anton Kenny. Dennis Allen had cut
Speaker 1: off his legs with a chainsaw to fit him into
Speaker 1: a forty four gallon drum that was dumped in the
Speaker 1: Arrow River.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: He's also believed to have killed his friend Wayne Stanhope. Now,
Speaker 1: whether Alan planned to kill stan Hope or did it
Speaker 1: on a whim is uncertain, but what happened was when
Speaker 1: he was invited. So Stanhope was invited over to Dennis
Speaker 1: Allen's home, like straight on his release from jailp he went.
Speaker 1: They were all doing drugs together and he went to
Speaker 1: change a record on Allan's stereo system and Alan shot
Speaker 1: him in the head. He emptied two guns before cutting
Speaker 1: his friend's throat.
Speaker 2: Oh wow.
Speaker 1: His body was never found, so no charges were laid.
Speaker 2: Everyone knew he was guilty, but wow.
Speaker 1: This is what has been said about what happened in
Speaker 1: all of Allan's alleged crimes. Andrew Fraser essentially helped him
Speaker 1: avoid jail time by leveraging his knowledge of corrupt Victorian
Speaker 1: police at the time, and there was a lot of corruption,
Speaker 1: So essentially Andrew Fraser knew about the corruption and would
Speaker 1: use that to kind of not get him charged. He
Speaker 1: would get a lot of Allan's hearings adjourned time and
Speaker 1: time again, but one was particularly prominent. Dennis had asked
Speaker 1: Andrew Fraser to get in a German in a hearing
Speaker 1: at the coroner's court. So it was hearing into a
Speaker 1: woman who had died of a heroin overdose, but whose
Speaker 1: body had been found in a river with signs that
Speaker 1: had been put there after death. Dennis Allen came forward
Speaker 1: as the main suspect, but there wasn't enough evidence to
Speaker 1: arrest and charge him, so instead they did a coroner's
Speaker 1: inquiry into her death and essentially into whether they could
Speaker 1: find enough evidence to charge Allan. Now, Fraser had kind
Speaker 1: of said, I can't get you out of this one, mate.
Speaker 1: It's the coroner's court. It looks really bad here. I
Speaker 1: can't adjourn this anymore. You weren't going to have to
Speaker 1: go in today. Andrew Fraser went and picked him up.
Speaker 1: They drove in to the Coroner's court together and as
Speaker 1: they pulled up they saw dozens of fire trucks because
Speaker 1: the Coroner's court had been firebombed, so it was closed
Speaker 1: for the day. My god, Alan said, quote told you
Speaker 1: I'd get it adjourned. Alan said, quote told you I'd
Speaker 1: get it adjourned.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, this time this is such an extreme Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Now Andrew Fraser. Fraser was quoted as saying, Dennis
Speaker 1: was always polite to me, listened and took my advice,
Speaker 1: but his only redeeming feature to me was that he
Speaker 1: had a lot of money. Sure, clearly this is still phrases.
Speaker 1: Quite clearly he was a dreadful person.
Speaker 2: Sure, okay, So he knew he was representing you know,
Speaker 2: can you call them not pests? But it was like
Speaker 2: what pits pits the pit pits? Yeah, exactly, So he
Speaker 2: knew the people he was representing, but he.
Speaker 1: Was really absolutely attorney.
Speaker 2: Yeah my god, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, wow, Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: so interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean I never in all of my research, I
Speaker 1: didn't ever hear him talk about any specific cases of
Speaker 1: people he got off because he thought they were innocent.
Speaker 1: But he spoke a lot about the fact that he says,
Speaker 1: you never ask your client whether they did it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 1: Now, thankfully for Andrew Fraser and undoubtedly many many people
Speaker 1: who surely would have gone on to become more victims
Speaker 1: of Dennis Allen, or at the very least have horrible
Speaker 1: dire interactions with him. Dennis Allen died in nineteen eighty
Speaker 1: seven at the age of thirty five. His heart gave
Speaker 1: out almost certainly not helped by years of very heavy
Speaker 1: drug abuse, which per my re caused pieces of his
Speaker 1: heart to literally break away.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, he's heart broke, his.
Speaker 1: Heart broke heart failure because he was a piece of ship. Wow,
Speaker 1: only thirty five thirty five? Now I can I just say,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying his piece of ship because he did
Speaker 1: drugs hit.
Speaker 2: This man was a piece of yes, yeh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: he sawed someone's legs off. I think you're hard to
Speaker 2: say that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Andrew Fraser has said openly that he was very happy
Speaker 1: to see the back of mister death, but it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be the end of his relationship with Dennis Allen's family.
Speaker 2: More on that later, a lot of money coming to
Speaker 2: that family.
Speaker 1: The second of Andrew Fraser's notorious, well known clients I'm
Speaker 1: going to talk about today is Lewis.
Speaker 2: Moran, the Moran family.
Speaker 1: One of the heads of the Carlton Crew, which you
Speaker 1: brought up earlier, so very brief I'm just mentioned, not
Speaker 1: even background. Melbourne had very very prominent underworld gangland wars
Speaker 1: in the eighties, nineties, early two thousands. It was essentially
Speaker 1: kind of two gangs ended up turning against each other.
Speaker 1: One person started working with one to make ecstasy pills,
Speaker 1: then went off on their own was shot in the stomach.
Speaker 1: This kicked off the whole thing. One of the gangs
Speaker 1: was called the Carlton Crew, and Lewis Moran was the patriarch,
Speaker 1: or one of the patriarchs of this crew. His fat
Speaker 1: This is just to kind of paint a bit of
Speaker 1: a picture as to his life in crime and how
Speaker 1: he got started. His father was a bookie in a
Speaker 1: local pub who always cooked the books, and his mother
Speaker 1: was a quote unquote nurse for a prominent illegal abortionist.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, it wasn't a great family. Moran was an
Speaker 1: all rounder as a crime figure. He was a skilled pickpocket,
Speaker 1: something he never quite gave up, even when he was
Speaker 1: making plenty of cash in other ways. He and his
Speaker 1: brother Tuppence were tough street fighters and were said to
Speaker 1: use guns only when necessary.
Speaker 2: And I think it's someone called Tuppen's I think tough.
Speaker 1: Well, yes it was his nickname, but I don't remember
Speaker 1: why the family was heavily involved in illegal book making,
Speaker 1: race fixing, and opportunistic receiving of stolen goods. Now, it
Speaker 1: was Lewis's son Jason and step soon Mark who moved
Speaker 1: the family into the lucrative business of drugs, the business
Speaker 1: that eventually cost both of them, or all of them,
Speaker 1: their lives. Lewis Moran, cunning and cautious, was always looking
Speaker 1: for an edge. He was looking for better legal advice
Speaker 1: and had heard about this guy called Andrew Fraser. He
Speaker 1: met Fraser through the respected barrister Phil Dunn at a
Speaker 1: lunch at the Flower Drum restaurant.
Speaker 2: Oh sure, quite a well known restaurant.
Speaker 1: In very well known. It actually won in a war.
Speaker 1: I think it won Restaurant of the Year, or that
Speaker 1: might be wrong, but I think it's right this year
Speaker 1: in twenty two.
Speaker 2: Really yeah, I've been around for a long time, a
Speaker 2: long time, and it's institution really prominent in.
Speaker 1: That era of you know, high flyers, whether they're underworld
Speaker 1: or above. So Moran asked Andrew Fraser for his card,
Speaker 1: and Fraser gave him a handful and with that gestures
Speaker 1: it is But he was like, this is my inn.
Speaker 1: This is les hand out as many as you want.
Speaker 1: With this gesture, his standing as the underworld's go to
Speaker 1: lawyer was consolidated.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: A quote from Andrew Fraser. I never charged Lewis assent
Speaker 1: because anything he sent me so many blokes, sorry, because
Speaker 1: he sent me so many blokes who did pay.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Sure, he would sometimes ask for a favor for a
Speaker 1: good bloke who'd got in trouble, but he would tell
Speaker 1: me which ones had plenty and to charge them accordingly. Right, right,
Speaker 1: So he knew Lewis brand. Yeah, he knew Louis Maron
Speaker 1: was such a big player in the underworld that he
Speaker 1: was like, I'm not going to charge you ever, mate,
Speaker 1: You're all good. Just give me some more work and
Speaker 1: Lewis will kind of work with him to go charge
Speaker 1: this one.
Speaker 2: Yeah right.
Speaker 1: Fraser trusted Moran a lot more than he certainly trusted
Speaker 1: but even liked, Dennis Allen. But business is business. Moran
Speaker 1: paid him by referring, referring a stream of clients. Allan
Speaker 1: had paid with an endless stream of cash.
Speaker 2: Did you know if Andrew Fraser worked with a law
Speaker 2: firm or he was always out on his own?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, work, you'd have to work by yourself, you couldn't.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I'm thinking that, but I actually don't know.
Speaker 4: Ye.
Speaker 1: So, over these years representing many dodgy and discussing criminals,
Speaker 1: the underworld's favorite lawyer got into a bit of a
Speaker 1: habit himself. He broke one of the iron rules of
Speaker 1: old time criminals. Don't get high on your own supply.
Speaker 2: Oh sure, okay.
Speaker 1: Fraser started using cocaine after a biky gang leader tossed
Speaker 1: him a bag of the drug as a gift when
Speaker 1: Fraser was going away for a weekend to the Adelais
Speaker 1: Grand Prix in the late nineteen eighties.
Speaker 2: Thrown through the window of a passing trip.
Speaker 1: It may have been.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: The reason I bring it up here is that Lewis
Speaker 1: Moran said from very early days that will get you
Speaker 1: into nothing but trouble, mate, stay.
Speaker 2: Out of it. Nice for him to warn him.
Speaker 1: Exactly if Louis Morando's any I was staying out of
Speaker 1: trouble now. This cocaine use, over time became less of
Speaker 1: a habit and more of a full blown addiction, a
Speaker 1: five thousand dollars a week addiction.
Speaker 2: Or less five thousand dollars a week.
Speaker 1: In a podcast with him that I listened to, he said,
Speaker 1: a cocaine addiction is God's way of telling you you've
Speaker 1: got too much money.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: His addiction was a very poorly kept secret, but we'll
Speaker 1: get back to that. The third client I'm going to
Speaker 1: talk about today is Victor Pierce. While working with Slash
Speaker 1: representing Dennis Allen, Andrew Fraser became inextricably linked to the
Speaker 1: wider family. As I said before, Dennis Allen's mother was
Speaker 1: Cath petting Gil. Two of her other sons were notorious gangsters,
Speaker 1: Trevor Pettingill and Victor Pierce, so there were two of
Speaker 1: Dennis Allen's half brothers. After Dennis Allen died, Andrew Fraser
Speaker 1: wanted out of the petting Gill family, but that was
Speaker 1: a lot easier said than done. They saw him as
Speaker 1: being on the books, even owing them. One of his brothers,
Speaker 1: Victor Victor Pierce had been represented by Fraser years before
Speaker 1: and hadn't avoided conviction and was locked up for four years.
Speaker 1: He blamed Fraser, of course, he was his lawyer and
Speaker 1: he hated him. Wow. But the rest of the fa
Speaker 1: family loved and trusted Andrew Fraser, so Victor Piers was
Speaker 1: willing to give the lawyer another go. Fraser essentially feeling
Speaker 1: threatened and backed into a corner to continue working with
Speaker 1: the family. Victor Pierce was not someone you wanted to cross, right.
Speaker 1: His family was the only reason that essentially he didn't
Speaker 1: go and shoot him up. Now that Dennis Allen was dead,
Speaker 1: he was like, well, what have you done for the
Speaker 1: rest of us? The family was going no, no, no.
Speaker 1: Kath Penning girl was going, no, mate, we trust him,
Speaker 1: let him represent you.
Speaker 2: Wow. And also if you're owing them some sort of
Speaker 2: favor or you're on their books as well, such a
Speaker 2: big thing.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Now, Victor Piers was loathed and feared in equal measure.
Speaker 1: He was hot headed, he loved guns and was a
Speaker 1: very heavy drug user as well as a trafficker, but
Speaker 1: at this stage he was fairly low on the rung
Speaker 1: of Melbourne crime figures until now. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: go into this in super detail because I'm definitely going
Speaker 1: to do this story as its own episode, but the
Speaker 1: background is required to continue Andrew Fraser's story. Victor Pierce,
Speaker 1: his brother Trevor Pettingill, and Victor's best mate Graham Jensen
Speaker 1: were widely suspected of being part of a gang that
Speaker 1: was dubbed the Flemington Crew, a gang of violent armed
Speaker 1: robbers who carried out terrifying bank heists in full masks,
Speaker 1: often shooting up the place but leaving little to no evidence.
Speaker 1: Police were sure they knew who the men were, and
Speaker 1: they were surveilling all of those that they suspected to
Speaker 1: be part of the gang when something happened that is
Speaker 1: widely believed to have sparked one of the most notorious
Speaker 1: crimes in Victorian and in fact Australian history. On October eleven,
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight, police were going to arrest Graham Jensen,
Speaker 1: so Victor Pierce's best mate. They were going to arrest
Speaker 1: him in connection with an armed robbery and a murder,
Speaker 1: a couple of murders going on in this group of people.
Speaker 1: But the ambush to arrest him was bungled by police.
Speaker 1: A chase ensued, during which Pollissa they saw Gentsen brandish
Speaker 1: a gun, and they shot him in retaliation. Victor Pierce's
Speaker 1: best friend had been shot dead by police. Thirteen hours later,
Speaker 1: at four thirty nine am on the twelfth of October,
Speaker 1: an abandoned Holden commodore parked on Walsh Street in South
Speaker 1: yarra was reported to Victoria Police. Two young officers, twenty
Speaker 1: two year old Stephen Tynan and twenty year old Damienare
Speaker 1: took the call and they went to see what this
Speaker 1: car was doing, dumped in the middle of a quiet
Speaker 1: street with its lights on and its doors open. When
Speaker 1: these two young constables got out of their car to
Speaker 1: go and investigate this car on Walsh Street, they were
Speaker 1: shot dead in cold blood. Oh wow, this was huge news.
Speaker 1: Two completely innocent young constables out doing their jobs, trying
Speaker 1: to protect the community, killed for no reason or of
Speaker 1: a war against police of which they didn't know they
Speaker 1: were a part. I'm going to tell that full story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fascinating.
Speaker 1: The suspects for the Wolsh Street killings were immediately identified
Speaker 1: by police as suspects as Victor Pierce, Trevor Petting Girl,
Speaker 1: Anthony Lee Farrell and Peter McAvoy. Now, getting evidence and
Speaker 1: landing charges would take police two and a half years,
Speaker 1: but they got there. All four of these men were
Speaker 1: charged with murder. Again, it was a huge story. Still today,
Speaker 1: you can say Wolsh Street to anyone in Australia and
Speaker 1: they know about that story.
Speaker 2: Except for me. I didn't know about that story, but like.
Speaker 1: You're not not know even the details, but you know
Speaker 1: two cops were shot down. Yeah, guess who they got
Speaker 1: to represent them?
Speaker 2: Ah, Julian Burnside.
Speaker 1: No it was Andrew Fraser. Yes, who this whole story
Speaker 1: is about. Andrew Fraser says it was a messy investigation
Speaker 1: by police from the start and the charges were rushed.
Speaker 1: He said that police. Yeah, wow, we'll go into that
Speaker 1: another time. Fraser said that police straightway identified who they
Speaker 1: believed were responsible and then went about building a case
Speaker 1: against them, which is the wrong way to do it.
Speaker 1: And he used that. Fraser used that in his defense. Again,
Speaker 1: I'll save all the details for another episode. But unbelievably,
Speaker 1: still to this day, all four men were acquitted of
Speaker 1: the Wall Street killings. They walked free, and Andrew Fraser
Speaker 1: was to thank police were in ray. In Fraser's own words,
Speaker 1: this is when he believed police, the police force first
Speaker 1: turned their sights onto taking him down, and as it
Speaker 1: turns out, it wouldn't be that hard. The next chapter
Speaker 1: of script here is called Fraser's Undoing.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, this is a chapter that I'm interested
Speaker 2: interested the whole time, but I'm very interested in this chapter.
Speaker 1: So Wall Street was in nineteen eighty eight. I left
Speaker 1: it to telling until last because kind of for the
Speaker 1: background on the families. But also that was the thing
Speaker 1: that really that's what a lot of people remember. Imagine
Speaker 1: Fraser was he the one that represented the Wall Street
Speaker 1: guys and got the wife and then so from being
Speaker 1: known as a lawyer doing that to then going on
Speaker 1: and representing people like Dennis Allen and Lewis Moran. The
Speaker 1: police fucking hated hated him.
Speaker 2: Do you know how long he kind of practiced law
Speaker 2: before he was to get a name like that. You
Speaker 2: imagine he was working for a long time.
Speaker 1: While yes, he was fifty at the age of his undoing.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, right, all right, so he'd had a pretty
Speaker 2: big coreer.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean to be hired by the the Wolf
Speaker 1: Street Killers, he acquitted World Street Killers.
Speaker 2: And Paul Hogan.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think you represent his criminal case. You
Speaker 1: may have, but I did to brickon to that.
Speaker 2: And there's no reason I brought Paul Hogan, like to
Speaker 2: bring up you always do.
Speaker 1: You always do? Uh yeah, So, like he was prominent
Speaker 1: enough by then representing them. So as I said earlier,
Speaker 1: Lewis Moran had warned Fraser that doing drugs would be
Speaker 1: his undoing something the kg old crook feared for his
Speaker 1: own sons or his own son Jason Moran and his
Speaker 1: stepson Mark, which it was. They both fell victim to
Speaker 1: the underworld War of the nineties and early two thousands.
Speaker 1: Fraser said, I looked in the mirror one morning and
Speaker 1: admitted it to myself. You've got a habit, I told myself,
Speaker 1: and I decided to give it up then and there.
Speaker 1: I kept that promise right up until lunchtime. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: that's like a serious yeah addiction.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you should only ever look in the mirror
Speaker 2: and say, God, you look good.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I do think in this case it was maybe
Speaker 1: you know, I think it was fine for him to
Speaker 1: clock himself out, okay, Or were you saying that just
Speaker 1: to me specific to.
Speaker 2: You specifically in everyone listening. I think you should only
Speaker 2: ever look in the mirror and say, God, you look good,
Speaker 2: and wink if you want. If you want, yeah, you
Speaker 2: can add if you want.
Speaker 1: Our listeners are good, and God they look good.
Speaker 2: They look good as well.
Speaker 1: So apart from the damage to his reputation, his law practice,
Speaker 1: and his family life, phrases one thousand dollars a day
Speaker 1: cocaine Habit made him.
Speaker 2: Vulnerable thousands a day.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that must be business days only because
Speaker 1: I said five.
Speaker 2: Year on the weekend.
Speaker 1: It also made him very vulnerable because it gave corrupt
Speaker 1: police something to threaten him with.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Sure, And as we know, and you can imagine from
Speaker 1: his role in many criminal cases that didn't go police
Speaker 1: this way, including Paul Hogan, but particularly exacerbated by his
Speaker 1: defense of the Wall Street four. To put it bluntly,
Speaker 1: they fucking hated the guy and everyone.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry that you just went with that and swore
Speaker 2: like that, I'm not, You're not. I'll say it again, don't.
Speaker 2: I said I would not that I will be careful
Speaker 2: what you do right now because there might be kids
Speaker 2: listening in the car.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I hope there's not.
Speaker 2: Well, how do we know now?
Speaker 1: And you're about about legs being chopped off and oh.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah dad, if you got, yeah, have take a
Speaker 2: good heart, look at yourself in the mirror and then
Speaker 2: say got you got?
Speaker 1: You look good? And Andrew Fraser hated police right back.
Speaker 1: He was and remained even all after all that's to
Speaker 1: come very vocal on police corruption, particularly in the drug Squad.
Speaker 1: Drug Squad of the eighties and nineties. Andrew Fraser's saucers
Speaker 1: now he.
Speaker 2: Is a git a brand, the Paul Newman exactly.
Speaker 1: Uh, he remained always he never ever ever threw anyone
Speaker 1: under the bus term he kept exactly even after his
Speaker 1: own downfall, he kept he never chucked anyone else in it,
Speaker 1: which is why I've written. Fraser's sources suggested he never
Speaker 1: said who told him any of this information?
Speaker 2: When you said that before? Did I say you bind?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you did say that you did it as if
Speaker 1: it was like s a U see. But they suggested
Speaker 1: that rogue detectives were getting the precursor chemicals that were
Speaker 1: being made into ecstasy. They were getting them wholesale from
Speaker 1: a legitimate source, So you are orful you ask under
Speaker 1: the cover of an ongoing police sting operation. So police
Speaker 1: would get legitimate precursor drugs, saying they were doing a
Speaker 1: sting on operation. They would then take these products to
Speaker 1: known and to mean cooks and offer them the chemicals
Speaker 1: on the basis that half of the finished speed as
Speaker 1: finished ecstasy, would be handed over to them as payment. Right, okay, right,
Speaker 1: And This thing worked well apart from the fact as
Speaker 1: it turned out that the dodgy police sold much, if
Speaker 1: not most, of the drugs to street dealers. Sure, okay,
Speaker 1: Andrew had a string of clients and contacts who told
Speaker 1: him police had robbed them, flogged them, and then arrested
Speaker 1: them as well. So they were doing this dodgy business
Speaker 1: and then still arresting them at the end of the day.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Fraser didn't believe he could speak safely to anyone in
Speaker 1: the Victoria Police Force, so decided to contact the National
Speaker 1: Crime Authority as it then was, which is like the
Speaker 1: federal agency looking into police coruption. Ah okay, this is
Speaker 1: a quote from Fraser. A policeman I knew assured me
Speaker 1: that I could trust a particular guy in the National
Speaker 1: Crime Authority. He was wrong. The person I contacted called
Speaker 1: Strawhorn the same day and told him Fraser is onto you.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Strawhorn was the head of the armed drugs squad and
Speaker 1: arguably the most crooked of all of them, so he
Speaker 1: was told Frases onto you. And so Fraser says, in
Speaker 1: his own words, his decision to blow the whistle on
Speaker 1: corrupt state police blew up in his face. From that
Speaker 1: moment on, he was in big trouble. As Fraser sees it,
Speaker 1: Strawhorn's sinister influence over the drug squad immediately swung all
Speaker 1: of its resources against Andrew Fraser to neutralize the threat
Speaker 1: that he posed. A crooks are not dabbing on him.
Speaker 1: But if there's this criminal lawyer that hates us onto us,
Speaker 1: we're going to do something to take doubt. This is
Speaker 1: all Andrew Fraser's allegations. I mean, straw Horn has been
Speaker 1: done for corruption, but that's not the story. So Andrew says,
Speaker 1: as part of this like sting operations that were going
Speaker 1: back and forth, he says, rogue police broke into Jason
Speaker 1: Moran to Lewis's Moran's son's house to retrieve five thousand
Speaker 1: ecstasy pills that they had earlier planted.
Speaker 2: On him five thousand.
Speaker 1: Now that the rogue police wanted to concentrate on nailing
Speaker 1: Moran's lawyer rather than Moran himself, they wanted the pills
Speaker 1: back as potential ammunition in what I'm calling the war
Speaker 1: against Andrew Fraser. So they'd put allegedly five thousand ecstasy
Speaker 1: pills in the Moran's place to do one of these
Speaker 1: dodgy sting operations. They went back there and retrieved the pills,
Speaker 1: not in a sting operation, so they could try to
Speaker 1: use them against Andrew Fraser. So but in the end,
Speaker 1: Strawhorn's crew didn't need the ecstasy pills to be planted
Speaker 1: in Andrew Fraser's possession as throwaways. Fraser did their work
Speaker 1: for them. Oh my god, been bugging him and in
Speaker 1: doing so, he was recorded in several compromising conversations, notably
Speaker 1: giving advice to a cocaine smuggler on how he could
Speaker 1: import five and a half kilos of the drug.
Speaker 2: Wow, giving advice. That's us.
Speaker 1: This was blood on his hands. Andrew Fraser was organizing,
Speaker 1: or at least helping plan and organize the importation of
Speaker 1: a commercial quantity of drugs. He was arrested in his
Speaker 1: home with full lights and sirens. And our version of
Speaker 1: the SWAT team like breaking into.
Speaker 2: Here of teams in Australia, do you.
Speaker 1: Well, we call them the songs. So the Special Operations
Speaker 1: Group is our version of the swash. SOGS is great
Speaker 1: because so it's for Special Operations Group. But the acronym
Speaker 1: is also like kind of colloquially called the Sons of God.
Speaker 1: So they're known as the sons of God.
Speaker 2: That's called the Sogs.
Speaker 1: Anyway, Andrew Fraser was not laughing about the acronym that night.
Speaker 1: That night he was charged. While as a lawyer, you
Speaker 1: would think that he would have fought the charger's tooth
Speaker 1: and nail, but no, Fraser could not and therefore did
Speaker 1: not argue his innocence. He pleaded guilty to traffic in
Speaker 1: cocaine and to helping a client import two point seven
Speaker 1: million dollars worth of the drug from West Africa.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, this was the early nineties.
Speaker 1: Was late eighties, nineteen ninety nine that he was charged.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, sorry, I didn't say that anywhere. It was
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, Okay, that's so much money. Yeah, so much drugs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, five and a half but Helos, Yeah he's here.
Speaker 1: He went to court in two thousand and one. Now
Speaker 1: obviously he was strunk off the law register. It was
Speaker 1: never yeah, unfortunately, Yeah, it's all that takes. Pleading guilty
Speaker 1: to importing five and a half killers of cocaine. He could
Speaker 1: no longer and would never be able to again work
Speaker 1: as a lawyer. But he had cooperated and he had
Speaker 1: pleaded guilty right at the start. This was always and
Speaker 1: is always sorry a strong mitigating factor in judges' findings
Speaker 1: and sentences. If someone pleads guilty, they save the state
Speaker 1: a lot of money from going through a trial, they
Speaker 1: have a lot of things, and also shows accountability and
Speaker 1: potentially remorse.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure.
Speaker 1: His lawyer had submitted to the court that his addiction
Speaker 1: should lessen his culpability and therefore lessen the severity of
Speaker 1: his sentence. His lawyer stated once he said this in court,
Speaker 1: once cocaine took hold of him, the mix of that
Speaker 1: poison and his own personality disorder was quite deadly, he said.
Speaker 1: Despite the charges, mister Fraser was an extremely decent human
Speaker 1: being who was involved in a wide range of community activities,
Speaker 1: and who keenly felt the impact and shame he had
Speaker 1: brought on his family. That Fraser's wife had endured comments
Speaker 1: in innuendo, while his parents, once so proud, now averted
Speaker 1: their eyes from neighbours, and his children were suffering gibes
Speaker 1: at the school. Now, whether or not any of this
Speaker 1: played into the judge's sentencing, we don't really know, but
Speaker 1: I want to add if police hated Fraser the way
Speaker 1: they did so too did a lot of the justice system.
Speaker 1: He was seen as the man who got the Wall
Speaker 1: Street killers off, and a lot of people so a
Speaker 1: lot of the industry thought he made a mockery of
Speaker 1: their justice system. But of course judges don't employ bias
Speaker 1: or personal gripes in sentencing by the letter of the law.
Speaker 1: In November two thousand and one, fifty year old Andrew
Speaker 1: Fraser was sentenced to seven years. Wow, it's funny that
Speaker 1: you say that's it, because then a lot of people
Speaker 1: also say seven years is a lot for a straight
Speaker 1: up guilty play, a one off trap like traffic.
Speaker 2: That's so much.
Speaker 1: Well, there I meet it. Somewhere in the middle of
Speaker 1: that is where the judge would have come to I suppose.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't going to be easy. Well, whether you
Speaker 1: think seven years is a lot or a little, it was.
Speaker 1: His minimum term was five years, so five years without
Speaker 1: a doubt behind bars, and a portion of that time
Speaker 1: was to be served in maximum security maximum security. So yeah,
Speaker 1: whether you think seven years is a lot or much,
Speaker 1: that to me seems wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to be maximum security for something that would.
Speaker 1: Be murderers and rapists and like huge, big crime gang.
Speaker 2: Lords yeah to Paz.
Speaker 1: Correct, we're getting there.
Speaker 2: Okay, sorry, sorry.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I just think that's wild. The unit that
Speaker 1: he was housed in in Port Philip Prison was he
Speaker 1: was housed with thirty eight of the most dangerous criminals
Speaker 1: in Victoria. So there were only thirty nine people in
Speaker 1: that whole unit and he was one of them.
Speaker 2: Was that because of the police they didn't like him?
Speaker 2: Was that kind of wow? They were? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Perhaps, who know? Perhaps he didn't have an avenue for
Speaker 1: appeal either. He had pleaded guilty, so he didn't have
Speaker 1: an avenue to appeal his conviction. He could have he
Speaker 1: could have appealed his sentence, but it was there is
Speaker 1: always a risk that they can turn around and give
Speaker 1: you more.
Speaker 2: If you do that, Okay.
Speaker 1: So he was kind of sitting waiting, wishing for something
Speaker 1: to happen, and waiting on the sidelines and kind of
Speaker 1: keeping up with what was happening in the outside world.
Speaker 1: And on March seventeen, two thousand and three, which is
Speaker 1: Saint Patrick's.
Speaker 2: Day, Oh good, okay, good, yeah, correction.
Speaker 1: The deputy chief of the Victorian Police drug Squad, Wayne Strawhorn,
Speaker 1: remember that name. He was arrested for trafficking a commercial
Speaker 1: quantity of pure pseudoeffridron two none less than Gangland figure
Speaker 1: Mark Bran was Moran's son, so the head of the
Speaker 1: drug squad who had had it in for Andrew Fraser,
Speaker 1: was then arrested himself on these charges.
Speaker 2: And pseudo effidron is quite an odd thing to be
Speaker 2: so that's as.
Speaker 1: I was saying earlier about the precursor to like ecstasy
Speaker 1: and speed, that's the precursor that were getting. So like
Speaker 1: when you go, this might not be thing for international listeners,
Speaker 1: but in Australia certainly if you want the cold, like
Speaker 1: the good cold and flu tablets from the pharmacy that
Speaker 1: have pseudoefron in them.
Speaker 2: You have to say behind the counter police.
Speaker 1: That's right, and that's why you have to give your ID.
Speaker 1: So they are logging who's buying pseudoeprodrone, so people can't
Speaker 1: be buying heaps because that is part of one of
Speaker 1: the illicit drugs.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: And also by this time Mark Moran, who he had
Speaker 1: supplied the drugs to, had been murdered himself, so he,
Speaker 1: his brother Jason, and his father Lewis would eventually be
Speaker 1: killed in Melbourne's a gangland war and as I said,
Speaker 1: Sewan had been the one behind Fraser's arrest. So Fraser
Speaker 1: thought bingo. He launched an appeal based on the fact
Speaker 1: that the cops that took him down wire crooked, and
Speaker 1: he was granted a hearing. So when you launch an appeal,
Speaker 1: you put in the paperwork saying this is why I
Speaker 1: want to appeal. The appeals court can either say yes
Speaker 1: or no to that. If they say yes to that,
Speaker 1: they allow the hearing where all the evidence is presented.
Speaker 1: This is why I think my conviction should be quashed,
Speaker 1: my sentence should be changed, any of the above. So
Speaker 1: he was granted a hearing and he and his lawyers
Speaker 1: were absolutely convinced he would win, like this is this
Speaker 1: is absolutely you know, knock out of the park. The
Speaker 1: squad who took him down for traffic themselves all in
Speaker 1: custody for trafficking.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: So the judge heard all the appeal evidence and denied
Speaker 1: an appeal. Really, Phraser would be spending at the very
Speaker 1: very least five years.
Speaker 2: In prison from when he was first Yes, yep, So.
Speaker 1: There was no chance he was going to get out
Speaker 1: earlier than the five years. At the very earliest. There
Speaker 1: wasn't much more for him to do but kill time.
Speaker 1: He couldn't practice law obviously, he didn't know what the
Speaker 1: future held for him, and he had no more avenues
Speaker 1: of appeal to study up on. That had kind of
Speaker 1: kept him quite busy looking, you know, doing his own
Speaker 1: kind of law legal stuff to be to be able
Speaker 1: to help himself. So he just kind of lived with
Speaker 1: what he'd done and tried to take the time to
Speaker 1: change and get fit time. Yes, I'll tell you at
Speaker 1: the end that's not the name after shows, but I'm
Speaker 1: not going.
Speaker 2: To tell you quarter back now.
Speaker 1: So he wanted to what he wanted to do most
Speaker 1: is just avoid the unsavory types that he was housed
Speaker 1: with in this Union Obscurity Unit. One of the most
Speaker 1: infamous unsavory types that he was housed with was a
Speaker 1: man named Peter Norris du Pass. He was in prison
Speaker 1: at the time for the gruesome, violent, heinous murders of
Speaker 1: two women, Margaret Maher and Nicole Patterson. And at this point,
Speaker 1: dear listeners, if you have not listened to our full
Speaker 1: episode on Peter du Pass, I would recommend to going
Speaker 1: back and doing so you can get to the end
Speaker 1: of this. If you want, but there are some spoilers
Speaker 1: for that episode. There are also was for this episode
Speaker 1: in that so we decide which turned him on a
Speaker 1: spoil if you hear, maybe just stick around then go back.
Speaker 1: Peter du Pass was very publicly believed to be guilty
Speaker 1: of at least one more murder than these two, and
Speaker 1: that murdering particular, was that of twenty five year old
Speaker 1: Messina hal Vargas, who had been brutally murdered while tending
Speaker 1: to her grandmother's grave at Faulkner Cemetery in Melbourne in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven. Wasn't enough evidence still, du Pass was
Speaker 1: in maximum security for life, never to be released. He
Speaker 1: was on two life sentences with no minimum tim But
Speaker 1: in two thousand and six an inquest was ordered into
Speaker 1: her death, which really was the police's way of being
Speaker 1: able to prove that it was due Pass. They had
Speaker 1: no other suspects, all signs pointed to him. Taking it
Speaker 1: to a coronial inquest essentially was so they could work
Speaker 1: out whether they could gather enough evidence to charge him.
Speaker 1: In gathering their evidence, and Andrew Fraser had been in
Speaker 1: So this is two thousand and six. Andrew Fraser had
Speaker 1: been in jail for very nearly five years. At this point,
Speaker 1: in gathering their evidence, police wondered if the serial killer
Speaker 1: du Pass could have made friends on the inside and
Speaker 1: maybe may have opened up to them. He was there
Speaker 1: in life, there may not have been much else to
Speaker 1: talk about. Sure, you also don't know if people like
Speaker 1: that brag to others. I'm the kind of bigger criminal.
Speaker 2: Than you your killer as well, you think maybe they
Speaker 2: are bragging.
Speaker 1: So police booked up picked up the phone to Fulham Prison,
Speaker 1: which at this time was a lesser security facility where
Speaker 1: Andrew Fraser had finally been moved to. He did over
Speaker 1: three years in maximum security and then was moved to Fulham.
Speaker 1: Police asked to speak to the lawyer that they had
Speaker 1: put in prison.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: When police told him they wanted to ask about Peter Dupas,
Speaker 1: Fraser said, I wondered when you'd call Wow.
Speaker 2: It's wild that he didn't go straight away, And.
Speaker 1: I'll get into that. Also he fucking hated police.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll go into it.
Speaker 2: Why Yeah, Yeah, do you think as a lawyer you
Speaker 2: would probably know that maybe you'd get some sort of
Speaker 2: leniency if.
Speaker 1: You Yeah, but also think about where he is and
Speaker 1: what people in prisons due to so called dogs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, goddamn dogs and pigs and rats.
Speaker 1: Pigs are what they call the police.
Speaker 2: Y's what they call the police.
Speaker 1: And they would do that to them too, I guess, so,
Speaker 1: Fraser said while house together at Port Phillip Prison. In
Speaker 1: a very unexpected turn for no one more so than
Speaker 1: Andrew Fraser himself, Juwpass really warmed to him and he
Speaker 1: didn't talk to anyone. Jupas had become an accomplished gardener
Speaker 1: and tended to the jail vegetable patch. Fraser, who'd been
Speaker 1: an athlete at school, was determined to regain his former
Speaker 1: fitness after you know, really spiraling and becoming a cocaine addict.
Speaker 1: He was like, right, while I'm here, I'll get fit,
Speaker 1: I'll get healthy again. So he would run and train
Speaker 1: outdoors daily. Jupas started to walk with him and would
Speaker 1: start to ask questions about the law. He was really
Speaker 1: intrigued by the law, which I suppose you would be
Speaker 1: if that was what your whole life kind of came
Speaker 1: down to. That the law put you behind us.
Speaker 2: You got nothing else do? You may have asked some questions?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Also, the Lord didn't put him behind bus his
Speaker 1: murderous rages did.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Lord doesn't kill people. People kill people.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what I always that hay fever today. So
Speaker 1: if I'm sniffing, I really do apologize.
Speaker 2: Sore. You're talking too much about cocaine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, phantom cocaine symptoms. And over time he started to
Speaker 1: kind of treat Fraser as like his own private counsel.
Speaker 1: I would start to open up to him a little bit,
Speaker 1: ask him lots of questions that sounded like they were pointed. Yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: And eventually he began to talk about Messina hal Vargas.
Speaker 1: Fraser told police that he had once found a homemade
Speaker 1: knife like a shive, concealed among weeds at the prison,
Speaker 1: and Dupas walked over and picked it up and inspected it,
Speaker 1: which is when the confession, according to Fraser, occurred. So
Speaker 1: this is this is now a quote from Andrew Fraser.
Speaker 1: We regularly used to find stuff hidden in the garden, drugs,
Speaker 1: weapons and other stuff. I once found a homemade knife
Speaker 1: and Juwpass came over. I called you passover to show
Speaker 1: it to him. He took it off me and started
Speaker 1: handling it, almost caressing it in a sexual way to
Speaker 1: pass then started arted saying Mersina, Mersina, Mersina, with a
Speaker 1: strange look on his face. I was certainly left in
Speaker 1: no doubt that Dupass murdered Messina. Quote continues. This wasn't
Speaker 1: some sort of Geilhouse confession where someone has gone in
Speaker 1: and sat inessell one night and had a brew with
Speaker 1: another prisoner and somebody has allegedly said something. It's a
Speaker 1: lot stronger than that. Dupas and I spoke regularly, just
Speaker 1: the two of us. This was over months and months,
Speaker 1: and he was talking to me and confiding in me.
Speaker 1: There was one occasion when another prisoner came up to
Speaker 1: us and when we when we were gardening, and started
Speaker 1: abusing Dupass. The prisoner was yelling at du Pass saying
Speaker 1: you killed Mersina. I know you killed Mersina. After the
Speaker 1: other prisoner had gone, Dupass turned to me and said,
Speaker 1: how does that c U and T No, I did
Speaker 1: it in end of phrases quote.
Speaker 2: I remember that from the picture Pass episode. That was Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was the way that he got him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, it's overtime. He was asking us of things.
Speaker 1: He never said I did it kind of this is
Speaker 1: what I did from what I know. But yeah, it
Speaker 1: started with him caressing this knife, saying messina, messina, messineen. Yes,
Speaker 1: and and a phrase I think I got into this
Speaker 1: as well, says he was terrified of Peter duo Pass.
Speaker 1: There was there was nothing kind of endearing about him
Speaker 1: at all. He was like a horrible, terrifying man.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: I think the fact that he kind of confided in
Speaker 1: him and treated him like his lawyer, Fraser felt a
Speaker 1: bit safer because he kind of confided in and trusted him.
Speaker 1: So he would talk to him, but he would not
Speaker 1: go out of his way to do so, but he
Speaker 1: would talk back to him because he thought, that's not
Speaker 1: someone I want to be on their bad side.
Speaker 2: And also, you know, both in maximum security. I guess
Speaker 2: a lot of the time you kind of go, oh,
Speaker 2: they're not going to rat on me because we're both
Speaker 2: in security. I guess they were just both killing time.
Speaker 1: Very clever. It's almost like you came up with it.
Speaker 1: So Fraser told all of this two police. He had
Speaker 1: said nothing before. They weren't exactly mates. Andrew Fraser and
Speaker 1: the police he didn't trust them, and they certainly didn't
Speaker 1: trust him until they called. They said, would you be
Speaker 1: willing to get up on the stand and testify against
Speaker 1: Peter Dupatz, and he said, under no circumstances while I
Speaker 1: am in jail, no I will be killed without a doubt.
Speaker 1: There is no way. I know how the law works.
Speaker 1: I'm coming close to the end of my minimum parole sentence.
Speaker 1: At least you get me out of here and I'll testify.
Speaker 2: He's also terrified of him as well, like going back
Speaker 2: to prison and.
Speaker 1: Just being of him, but then of also everyone else
Speaker 1: because they find out there's a rat in there, like
Speaker 1: he wouldn't survive as we've seen this one example of
Speaker 1: there's been he's found a hidden knife.
Speaker 2: At some point in that petting zoo.
Speaker 1: So he said, absolutely no way I'm going back to
Speaker 1: that prison. You've got absolutely nothing from me unless you
Speaker 1: get me out of here. So in September two thousand
Speaker 1: and six, Andrew Fraser, fifty five years old, were very
Speaker 1: quietly freed from full in prison two months before he's
Speaker 1: listed earliest release date. Now, when it gets to the
Speaker 1: end of your minimum sentence, and when it got to
Speaker 1: the five years for him, you have to apply to
Speaker 1: the parole board and then they may grant you. Sure,
Speaker 1: So it's not a given that he would have got
Speaker 1: out then anyway, But it is also pretty wild that
Speaker 1: he was sitting on this information as someone who knows
Speaker 1: the law, understands the law, and wanted desperately to be
Speaker 1: out of there. He still didn't come forward with it
Speaker 1: because that you just don't do that in prison, You
Speaker 1: just don't do that. He was terrified for his life.
Speaker 1: He had agreed to give sworn evidence against Dupass. He
Speaker 1: was taken out quietly for his own safety. If they
Speaker 1: saw him getting out, any word gone out that he
Speaker 1: was getting released, there was no way he would have
Speaker 1: just you do not dog on former crooks, no matter
Speaker 1: how violent to prave they are. You just don't do that.
Speaker 2: And he worked with crooks a lot, so we would not.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's all part of it as well.
Speaker 1: You know. He wasn't just some suit wearing lawyer who
Speaker 1: was kind of going, oh, I don't want to be
Speaker 1: in here, maybe I'll use my legal smarts. He knew
Speaker 1: some of the worst of the worst of crime in Victoria,
Speaker 1: as he knew what they did to each other. Within
Speaker 1: hours of Fraser's release, detectives traveled to Port Philip Prison
Speaker 1: and charged Peter du Pass with his third murder. They
Speaker 1: discovered that Dupass tried to recruit Fraser as his unpaid
Speaker 1: legal advisor when they were in the unit together at
Speaker 1: Port Fillm Prison, So he'd actually kind of said to him,
Speaker 1: I want you to work as my solicitor. Wow, like
Speaker 1: I want you to give me advice as a lawyer would. Now,
Speaker 1: if Fraser had been Dupass's lawyer, he would not have
Speaker 1: been legally allowed to give any evidence because any information
Speaker 1: would have remained privileged and confidential. But given he was
Speaker 1: convicted criminal, he had been disbarred from the legal I
Speaker 1: meant that none of the conversations between the pair could
Speaker 1: be considered privileged. Fraser was nothing more than a fellow
Speaker 1: inate listening to du Pass yapping.
Speaker 2: Oh that's great. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In du Pass's murder trial, Andrew Fraser was the key
Speaker 1: star prosecution witness, which the irony.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like I feel like the members of Victoria Police who
Speaker 1: were kind of using him for that, I wonder what
Speaker 1: the guilt levels or like maybe not even guilt, but like.
Speaker 2: This is but I guess yeah, they would have hated
Speaker 2: him so much then.
Speaker 1: To be like to be like, oh, really that's the
Speaker 1: person we've got to use. Yeah, he gave very over
Speaker 1: the top dramatic evidence, as was always his style in court.
Speaker 1: It was just that this was the first time about
Speaker 1: the witness box he did. At one point he was
Speaker 1: asked to he said that Dupass had done a pantomime
Speaker 1: type action with a knife or that pretending to have
Speaker 1: a knife, and he actually said to the judge, may
Speaker 1: I step out of the witness box.
Speaker 2: And shine behind you.
Speaker 1: I was about to say, not audience, jury, but he
Speaker 1: actually like walked in front of the jury box and
Speaker 1: was like had his arms up as if he was
Speaker 1: holding a knife and was doing stabbing motions, massive like
Speaker 1: this yelling out Messina's name, to which like this is
Speaker 1: in front of the full court. Messina's parents are they're
Speaker 1: they're sobbing, they're weeping. The jury was like shocked and appalled.
Speaker 1: But I think it did have a really big impact,
Speaker 1: and it seems like a really crazy, depraved thing to
Speaker 1: do if that's not actually what he wasn't actually re
Speaker 1: enacting it. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, he was always big
Speaker 1: and over the top and dramatic in court as a lawyer.
Speaker 1: Now he was being that as a witness.
Speaker 2: My god, it's so funny, is both you thought I
Speaker 2: was sociowbies that I call the jury my audience.
Speaker 1: My audience. Yeah, like all all world, my audience. So
Speaker 1: Fraser said in the witness box that Dupatz confessed telling
Speaker 1: him no one would know he did it because he
Speaker 1: left no forensic evidence behind. Now, from what I've read
Speaker 1: and understood, he never actually referred to it, like he
Speaker 1: never said no one will know I killed Mersina? How
Speaker 1: far he spoke about the thing at.
Speaker 2: Faulkner, Sure, okay.
Speaker 1: And one of the things was Fraser was asking him
Speaker 1: one day about so Peter du pass was going to
Speaker 1: him when I said, he was kind of using him
Speaker 1: as his counsel. He was going to him with all
Speaker 1: their evidence, documents and sentencings and everything from Margaret mar
Speaker 1: and Nicole Patterson's murders, and kind of saying to Fraser like,
Speaker 1: what can we do with this? Can we appeal? And
Speaker 1: in talking about one of those who Pass said they
Speaker 1: won't know about Faulkner or something about okay, right, no,
Speaker 1: not in Fulkner, and Fraser went, Faulkner, she was killed
Speaker 1: in Preston and he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, Preston. And
Speaker 1: so then Andrew Fraser went and looked.
Speaker 2: Into him oh wow, okay, so when you were a
Speaker 2: bit about it already.
Speaker 1: Yes, yep. He spoke about the time he found du
Speaker 1: Pass Kradle the knife. So this is all in the
Speaker 1: witness box. Whispering was in his name, and while he
Speaker 1: stated he was absolutely terrified, he did carefully probe for more.
Speaker 1: He said that the thing about a du Pass with
Speaker 1: the stabbing motions, and Fraser got up and did this
Speaker 1: in court, as I just said. Dupass's defense lawyer trying
Speaker 1: to argue that Fraser's whole story was a lie in
Speaker 1: order to win attention, to redeem himself, and primarily to
Speaker 1: provide material for a novel he was writing about his
Speaker 1: jail experiences, which, by the way, he did.
Speaker 2: Write for Killing Time no called Court.
Speaker 1: In the middle spelled coure.
Speaker 2: It plays that when you open the book.
Speaker 1: Exactly, it's like those birthday cards that beautiful, beautiful. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the defense lawyer said, this guy has been a
Speaker 1: show pony as long as we've known him. He wants
Speaker 1: his time back in the media. He wants to redeem himself.
Speaker 1: So he's now remembered as the person that took down
Speaker 1: a murderer, not as the disgraced lawyer rebrand. Yes, but
Speaker 1: the jury believed Andrew Fraser. Dupass was found guilty in
Speaker 1: August two thousand and seven and sentenced to his third
Speaker 1: life sentence. There had been a one million dollar reward
Speaker 1: on offer for Dupass's conviction, So information that led to
Speaker 1: the arrest and conviction of Messina hal Vargas's murderer, there
Speaker 1: would be a one million dollar award. Now Fraser has
Speaker 1: said that he did get some of this, but it's
Speaker 1: never been revealed how much. Right, Okay, And it was
Speaker 1: a recommendation by Victoria police that he deserved the reward money.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: They stated unequivocally that they would not have got a
Speaker 1: conviction without his evidence.
Speaker 2: That's true, because that was the reason. Yeah, it wasn't
Speaker 2: it completely?
Speaker 1: So what do you think about that that it was
Speaker 1: vic Pole that actually said, yep, he should get the reward.
Speaker 2: I think it's called egg on their face. Far Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think, Sam, Oh, you're so right, egg on a pig.
Speaker 1: But it would have been I don't think we're allowed
Speaker 1: to call the police.
Speaker 2: Nice. My old friend of mine that is like the
Speaker 2: most by the book person ever and never never does
Speaker 2: anything bad in his life. He always always anytime he
Speaker 2: sees a police cargo, thought it smelt bacon. Oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's awful, It's hilarious.
Speaker 1: There was a there was a cafe in the town
Speaker 1: where my sister has a holiday house. There needs to
Speaker 1: be a cafe in the town called Piglets, And there
Speaker 1: was a sign leading into the town that said piglets
Speaker 1: five hundred meters ahead.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And one day then police Chief Commissioner of Victoria, Christine Nixon,
Speaker 1: was driving into town to do an opening of something
Speaker 1: in this little town and saw the sign saying piglets ahead,
Speaker 1: and she thought they'd put that up to take the
Speaker 1: piece out of her like. And then she went to
Speaker 1: the cafe and was like, oh wait, it's not about that.
Speaker 2: No, I think I would think we've been quiet. That's
Speaker 2: that's a lot of swallowing your dignity, I think, you know,
Speaker 2: for them to do that.
Speaker 1: I think it's actually quite admirable. Yeah. Also, it wasn't
Speaker 1: any of the detectives who had anything to do with
Speaker 1: him directly, you know, getting him behind bars and stuff.
Speaker 1: I don't know if some of them because obviously would
Speaker 1: have been the homicide squad. Yeah, some of them very well,
Speaker 1: may have worked on some of the some cases that
Speaker 1: he had defended, you know, like the doctor death and stuff.
Speaker 1: I don't know if there was any crossover with them,
Speaker 1: but I do think it's quite admirable for them to
Speaker 1: say to not try to fight the reward money. They like, no,
Speaker 1: we put out a reward for this, and he got
Speaker 1: the convictions.
Speaker 2: And you kind of see, like you know, in those
Speaker 2: kind of older TV shows of cops back then, you
Speaker 2: kind of see them as people that just hate the
Speaker 2: crims so much.
Speaker 1: Was actually quite yeah, yeah, but they hate the crim's
Speaker 1: defense lawyers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So after Andrew Fraser's release from prison in two thousand
Speaker 1: and six, he rebuilt his life from scratch as an author,
Speaker 1: a documentary maker, and public speaker. Now I say from scratch.
Speaker 2: He was signed by Maxim Sparks. Is that right?
Speaker 1: Don't have that? You think everyone is.
Speaker 2: Signed by.
Speaker 4: Uh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I say it's rebuilt his life from a scratch
Speaker 1: in terms of money. His wife, who had stayed with
Speaker 1: him throughout his prison sentence, towards the end said when
Speaker 1: you get out, you're not going to be coming back
Speaker 1: and living with me, and they split up. He had
Speaker 1: two children who you know, he'd missed five years of
Speaker 1: their lives. He was living in housing that was provided
Speaker 1: by you know, the parole board. He was threatened multiple
Speaker 1: times in the lead up to Dupass's trial.
Speaker 2: Okay, I received.
Speaker 1: Anonymous threats saying, you know, don't dog all of this.
Speaker 2: Imagine like the Underworld people would have been quite scared
Speaker 2: as well and been like you because I guess wine,
Speaker 2: it's a domino effect, isn't it exactly?
Speaker 1: And the Underworld gat wars were I think they were
Speaker 1: pretty much all like the main part of Melbourne's Underworld
Speaker 1: gangline war was kind of wrapped up by two thousand
Speaker 1: and six.
Speaker 2: But the people, to him, they are killing the world
Speaker 2: with comedy right now.
Speaker 1: Don't you get defamation gays? That was a joke everybody.
Speaker 2: For them killing me? What comedy is?
Speaker 1: I kay to say? There are the people. Were the
Speaker 1: people that kind of in the gangland world that got
Speaker 1: away from ever being convicted or weren't then that was
Speaker 1: still around, it'd be pretty terrifying. Sure, although he represented
Speaker 1: some of them, he also represented the enemies of some
Speaker 1: of them. And yeah, it was a pretty terrifying way
Speaker 1: I would think to go back into life, especially some
Speaker 1: of them, so.
Speaker 2: Loud and proud and rich yes, right, yeah, and kept
Speaker 2: making a scene of kind of saying, you just I
Speaker 2: just never asked them if they did it all, you know,
Speaker 2: like that the way he kind of praded himself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he was given a lot of flak for
Speaker 1: the fact that he was the style witness for Peter
Speaker 1: to do pass. Obviously a lot of people that were
Speaker 1: very thankful for it, but there was also a lot
Speaker 1: that kind of tongue in cheek or roll in the eyes.
Speaker 1: He has to be the center of attention again, of course,
Speaker 1: he has to redeem himself. And then you know, I say,
Speaker 1: rebuilt his life from scratch as an author and public
Speaker 1: speaker and stuff. It was all about his life and
Speaker 1: his time, so it wasn't starting from scratch finding a
Speaker 1: whole new career and everything. He used his life story
Speaker 1: to then get success of some form after his conviction
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: Well, it's good that he kind of went for a
Speaker 2: like under the radar publicist Marx and Sparks, I said
Speaker 2: Max and Sparks before, but Marks and Sparks and I
Speaker 2: would like to put on the record sushi Mango have never.
Speaker 1: Killed that we know of that we he phrased es
Speaker 1: Whears that from the moment he was arrested. He has
Speaker 1: never ever touched an illicit drug again, and I think
Speaker 1: I would believe him on that's pretty literally sobering wake
Speaker 1: up call.
Speaker 2: Also, can I just say, real quick, if you ever
Speaker 2: found out why they're called sushi mango and it's not
Speaker 2: spelled very for like an Italian.
Speaker 1: And it's not spelled sushi as the Italian food he
Speaker 1: is anyway, please you don't know you were just I'm
Speaker 1: just asking, okay, if anyone knows.
Speaker 2: No one called sushi mango, if.
Speaker 1: No one knows what we're talking about. Australian comedy trio
Speaker 1: Andrew Fraser did almost become a star witness in another
Speaker 1: murder case, again against Peter Dupass. Wow In twenty thirteen,
Speaker 1: police reopened the murder investigation of a ninety five year
Speaker 1: old Kathleen Downs, who had been killed in a very
Speaker 1: similar manner to Dupass's other known victims. So when they
Speaker 1: reopened to the case, they again called Fraser in, who
Speaker 1: said that Dupas had opened up about Kathleen's death, mentioning
Speaker 1: it three times. He said Dupas referred to the ninety
Speaker 1: five year old as the old Shierlert Down.
Speaker 2: The road.
Speaker 1: He lived in Pascovale, near the unsolved murder in Brunswick,
Speaker 1: which du Pass had once told him, quote, I reckon,
Speaker 1: I'm going to end up wearing the old shiler as well,
Speaker 1: meaning Fraser interpreted to believe he would be implicated in
Speaker 1: Miss Down's death as well as health Arcassah. Sure, he
Speaker 1: said he could so. Fraser said he could do without
Speaker 1: further publicity relating to du Pass, but he did feel
Speaker 1: when police asked him he needed to speak up, so
Speaker 1: he held onto this for years. It was also only
Speaker 1: three mentions of the old shiller down the road. It
Speaker 1: was far less convincing to Fraser as a lawyer as
Speaker 1: evidence and what he went through in defense, in speaking
Speaker 1: out and being a witness against du Pass the first time. Yes,
Speaker 1: because like I'm not, this man is behind bars for
Speaker 1: the rest of his life. I don't need to get him,
Speaker 1: help get him convicted of a fourth murder. I don't
Speaker 1: have enough evidence on my own. I don't need to
Speaker 1: do this. But then when they reopened the murder investigation,
Speaker 1: he went there are these three things, he said to.
Speaker 2: Me, God, you're gonna have to read about it in
Speaker 2: my book exactly. And Maxon just gives him the thumbs up.
Speaker 1: Jupaz felt he needed then to speak up. He was
Speaker 1: also spurred on by a cancer diagnosis that made him
Speaker 1: recess a lot. So you hear that a lot when
Speaker 1: when someone has whether it's a near death experience or
Speaker 1: an illness, they go, Okay, what can I what's my
Speaker 1: legacy here?
Speaker 2: I do wish it happened with criminals that have killed
Speaker 2: and we talk where the body.
Speaker 1: Is like that, No, I do it.
Speaker 2: I swear all the you're cool.
Speaker 1: Man, think you Yeah, we say that all the time.
Speaker 1: People murderers who are on their deathbed or criminals are
Speaker 1: on their death bed, just confess you.
Speaker 2: Have those Paul victim's family some sort of opportunity to
Speaker 2: bury their loved one or grief properly.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Andrew Fraser agreed to be prosecution witness again. However,
Speaker 1: the case would end up falling over once again because
Speaker 1: of Andrew Fraser, never to be the one who wasn't
Speaker 1: the center of attention. By the time the case would
Speaker 1: be heard, Fraser was too sick with cancer to give evidence.
Speaker 1: Police were forced to abandon hopes of charges in this murder,
Speaker 1: but Kathleen Down's family hold no resentment towards Andrew Fraser
Speaker 1: for not speaking out earlier. They have peace knowing you
Speaker 1: pass was the killer and that he would never be released.
Speaker 2: Sure, it's so hard imagine just not knowing one but
Speaker 2: also being like.
Speaker 1: Well they said, they said that, they said the justice,
Speaker 1: the legal system in it would just be about having
Speaker 1: it on paper. They say they know one hundred percent
Speaker 1: it is him. He had hurt anyone again, and really
Speaker 1: thanked Andrew Fraser for telling them that he did confess
Speaker 1: about these other things, so they at least knew. So
Speaker 1: I said he had cancer. He was getting more and
Speaker 1: more sick and was too sick to be able to
Speaker 1: even be a witness in a case. So on Andrew
Speaker 1: Fraser's death, I'm going to steal the words here of
Speaker 1: crime reporter from the Age newspaper, Andrew Rule, who is
Speaker 1: one of the most brilliant writers in the world, and
Speaker 1: get him on the podcast. He's got his own podcast.
Speaker 1: I don't think you want to come on else, but
Speaker 1: we can try. He is also one of the I believe.
Speaker 1: Hang on, I'm going to google this before I say
Speaker 1: the wrong thing.
Speaker 2: Okay, I will say something then about Max Markson. If
Speaker 2: you're listening to the podcast. We think you represent some
Speaker 2: of the greatest acts currently living.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I do. I think you know what you did for
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton with his book. So we're in Australia's shut up.
Speaker 1: I found the answer and I was right. It's always
Speaker 1: good to check though.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Andrew Rule was one of the writers of the original
Speaker 1: books named Underbelly, which I then turned into the incredible
Speaker 1: TV series in Australia See Change, Sea Change. I've been
Speaker 1: talking a lot about the Melbourne Gangland War in this episode, listeners,
Speaker 1: I implore you to find under Belly season one.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I wonder where it's available, but yeah, we watched it.
Speaker 1: It's probably on stand or like one of the things.
Speaker 1: Look wherever you are in the world. Look if you
Speaker 1: can find it under Belly season one. There are many
Speaker 1: seasons and they're all good, but the first season is
Speaker 1: one of the best strulling TV shows with God and
Speaker 1: Graund and Vince Colossimo.
Speaker 2: I didn't see at the airport.
Speaker 1: And there's also other Roger Corser, our.
Speaker 2: Friend Jane Harbor, beautiful Jane Harbors.
Speaker 1: She's not listening to this episode. We thought of three
Speaker 1: other people before.
Speaker 2: She came to my house warming, and she every single
Speaker 2: time someone would bring some sort of present or something,
Speaker 2: you know, beautiful housewoman gives you go, that's from all
Speaker 2: of us, every single time. That's from all of us,
Speaker 2: just shouting across the place. That's from all of us.
Speaker 1: Underbelly Season one, Jane Harbor is the girl in the
Speaker 1: first episode who's wearing the slippers when she goes out driving.
Speaker 1: You'll know that it's a fantastic show. And a lot
Speaker 1: of these characters are in at the Morans. Yeah, watch it.
Speaker 1: It's great anyway. One of the writers of it was
Speaker 1: Andrew Rule. The other John Sylvester, another very famous Melbourne
Speaker 1: crime writer. So I'm stealing Andrew Ruhle's beautiful words here
Speaker 1: about Andrew Fraser's passing. The man who lived life on
Speaker 1: his own terms, though not always wisely left it the
Speaker 1: same way. On Wednesday, August nine, twenty twenty three, after
Speaker 1: a lengthy cancer battle, he called friends from his palliative
Speaker 1: care bed to say goodbye. I'm pulling the plug, he
Speaker 1: told one friend. Just before eleven am, he waited for
Speaker 1: his son Lachlan to arrive at his bedside to join
Speaker 1: his second wife at his own request, phrases. Oxygen supply
Speaker 1: was turned off and he died around one thirty PM.
Speaker 1: And I just used his wording in that because I
Speaker 1: absolutely adore how he said. The man who lived life
Speaker 1: on his own terms, though not always wisely left it
Speaker 1: the same way. Yeah, yeah, because that to me sums
Speaker 1: up Andrew Fraser. I have been obsessed with this story. Now.
Speaker 1: I'll say three kind of sources or just recommendations if
Speaker 1: you want to know more about this. The TV show
Speaker 1: Killing Time, which is an Australian television show as well.
Speaker 1: It stars our favorite David Wynham playing Andrew Fraser. You
Speaker 1: love that guy. I think it is a brilliant show.
Speaker 1: I rewatched it.
Speaker 2: I watched it at the time.
Speaker 1: I rewatched it again. It's from like twenty ten or something.
Speaker 1: It's brilliant and you really kind of get a look
Speaker 1: into the unraveling phrasers life.
Speaker 2: But to see what's written by because there's a there's
Speaker 2: quite a few Australian writers that write everything, and what
Speaker 2: they do is brilliant.
Speaker 1: It's not an Underbelly season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, but it's Killing Times. Is it a few seasons?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 1: No, No, it's just his story. It's just one season,
Speaker 1: and it's just his story.
Speaker 2: David Wenham, he is so so good, like in everything
Speaker 2: he's recently in Fake as well, which is oh yeah,
Speaker 2: that's good too, Asha Eddy, and oh my god, the
Speaker 2: way he is able to play someone so likable but
Speaker 2: unlikable at the same time. I think David Wenham just
Speaker 2: has his uncanny ability to get lost in whatever part
Speaker 2: he's playing. Having written.
Speaker 1: Dan you did, Of course you did? Written by Ian
Speaker 1: David mac gudge and Catherine Thompson and Sean Grant.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've heard. I've heard of those. They had
Speaker 2: a lot of Australian television.
Speaker 1: Okay, well they wrote Killing Time. It's right.
Speaker 2: I think they're on Rake as well, those people. Yeah right, okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: I feel that was right.
Speaker 1: As were Yeah okay, And if you're going to watch it,
Speaker 1: they go into the wallsh Street killings a lot, which
Speaker 1: I have not gone into depth about here because I
Speaker 1: keep saying, oh do that. It's a story. Caught in
Speaker 1: the Middle is Phraser's book, and you are, that's right.
Speaker 1: And Andrew Rules podcast. He's got a podcast, but there
Speaker 1: is a kind of like an offset side podcast he's
Speaker 1: done called Cops, Crims and Cocaine where he interviews Andrew
Speaker 1: Fraser over. I think it's three episodes and a lot
Speaker 1: of this I got from yeah, his own words listening
Speaker 1: to that. He spoke a lot in media after his release.
Speaker 1: He spoke a lot about what happened, a lot about
Speaker 1: Louis Moran and Denis Allen. I didn't speak much about
Speaker 1: Walsh Street. I min interpretation of that is perhaps the Again,
Speaker 1: I'm going to use the word guilt, but I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's the right word around his involvement in
Speaker 1: getting them off. He says quite openly that he knows.
Speaker 2: Victor Pierce was okay.
Speaker 1: At least Victor Piers was guilty.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's really interesting. The episodes with him are
Speaker 1: like a chat with him. It's not kind of explaining
Speaker 1: history and depth, but they're the sources. I hadn't thought
Speaker 1: you guys might be interested in listening to a watching
Speaker 1: I've just I think I first Oh no, no, of course.
Speaker 1: So I was going to say I think I first
Speaker 1: heard about it watching Killing Time. That's not true at all.
Speaker 1: I was there. I said this in the PDD Bassett episode.
Speaker 1: I was doing work experience in with Channel ten News,
Speaker 1: doing a court story. So we were in court one
Speaker 1: day when all the court reporters phones started going mental,
Speaker 1: and it was when it had come out that Andrew
Speaker 1: Fraser was not even that he was, that Messina hal
Speaker 1: Vargas's murderer had been charged. Wow, And so that was
Speaker 1: a huge, big news day. And then of course it
Speaker 1: came out from that. It was because they received new
Speaker 1: evidence from Andrew Fraser from behind bars. So that was
Speaker 1: for my nerdy little journal brain, especially at work experience age,
Speaker 1: I was like, this is so exciting. This is something
Speaker 1: in history. There's going to be closure for a family
Speaker 1: who's been looking for a killer for years. There's a
Speaker 1: lawyer involved who's been disgraced himself. This is so exciting.
Speaker 1: That made me really excited about crime reporting, but also
Speaker 1: made me really quite obsessed with this du Pass and
Speaker 1: Andrew Fraser cases. And it's one of those stories that
Speaker 1: I just find It's got everything right. It's got a
Speaker 1: disgraced lawyer, it's got a lawyer that people fucking hated,
Speaker 1: it's got one of the most infamous police shootings in
Speaker 1: Australian history. It's got two of the most infamous drug
Speaker 1: lords and murderers. It's got jay l It's got another murderer.
Speaker 1: It's just I love it.
Speaker 2: I love the story so fascinating, especially to happen in Melbourne.
Speaker 1: It it feels like a TV show.
Speaker 2: It absolutely does. It is called Killing Time.
Speaker 1: Yes, just when I was giggling, then who wrote it?
Speaker 1: The number one question that came up was is it
Speaker 1: based on a true story? It doesn't feel like it
Speaker 1: should be. It's like that, it's too wild.
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you a story next week for
Speaker 2: our Christmas a week of episodes. I'm going to tell
Speaker 2: you a story that you will not believe. He's already
Speaker 2: not a TV show or.
Speaker 1: A trade market trademarket yourself.
Speaker 2: I would also like to ask you the question, is
Speaker 2: Andrew Fraser related to Dorm Fraser?
Speaker 1: Well, you pronounced Frasier wrong. Then I don't know, but
Speaker 1: I have not seen.
Speaker 2: Anywhere derogatory because she came to my school. So I
Speaker 2: was I was a big swimmer in school and she
Speaker 2: was a.
Speaker 1: Swimmer who was big.
Speaker 2: I was a large her. Wow, I just took up
Speaker 2: the whole pool and I, uh yeah, Dorm Fraser came
Speaker 2: to do a speech at our school, and she was
Speaker 2: an Olympic star. She was incredible and everything, and she
Speaker 2: told me to go away. I try to speak to her.
Speaker 2: What do you mean I want to speak to her
Speaker 2: after its Hi, Dawn, I I would love to be
Speaker 2: a swimmer one day of alway kind of loves when
Speaker 2: she went go away? No she did, Yeah she did. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's awderful.
Speaker 1: Was she the one that stole the flag or something
Speaker 1: got in trouble?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she's She had a lot of controversy, which well,
Speaker 2: it's so funny. Yeahs will be great for that as
Speaker 2: well as rex Hunt is the other one that I
Speaker 2: really want to do.
Speaker 1: But I also rex Hunt is such a dangerous name.
Speaker 2: To oh my god quickly. But yeah, so I anytime
Speaker 2: that Dawn Fraser later had any public speaking things where
Speaker 2: she would say something awful, my friend, one of my
Speaker 2: best Friendsoul always message, you'd be happy about that just
Speaker 2: because of taking down breaks it down. It's like Margaret Court.
Speaker 2: Every time I think Born and Margaret Court are kind
Speaker 2: of the same person derogatory.
Speaker 1: But this is the funny thing, right, just because someone
Speaker 1: is an incredibly gifted athlete does not mean they're going
Speaker 1: to be I will.
Speaker 2: Speeches at schools.
Speaker 1: Will I will put all your minds back to our
Speaker 1: episode on Oscar Pistorius.
Speaker 2: Sure people not always. That is so fascinating about Andrew Fraser,
Speaker 2: though I I didn't know the story and when you
Speaker 2: talked about it in the p to Do Pats episode,
Speaker 2: going this is going to be a whole story.
Speaker 1: I will you like how I was like, because a
Speaker 1: lawyer was in jail and then got another guy.
Speaker 2: That is fascinating.
Speaker 1: There's so much more to it. I also didn't go
Speaker 1: into it all the fact that he was Alan Bond's lawyer.
Speaker 2: Wow, which if.
Speaker 1: You don't know about that, if you're listening, give a
Speaker 1: quick google an Australian businessman who lost a lot of
Speaker 1: people a lot of money. It would be winning the
Speaker 1: America's Cup.
Speaker 2: That'd be a great episode as well.
Speaker 1: Andrew Fraser was his lawyer as well, like he was,
Speaker 1: He's gonna be guy stories.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's gonna be some crossovers.
Speaker 1: We'll do one mega episode one day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all about it all the look I before we
Speaker 2: go to the mail bank today, g Love. We have
Speaker 2: had quite a lot of messages this week about Joe
Speaker 2: Chinkway the episode that was this week, and a lot
Speaker 2: of people have actually sent through messages about the Joe
Speaker 2: chin Quay episode. Some people sent through an interview that
Speaker 2: was done with a new Oh after sixty minutes one. No,
Speaker 2: it was an interview on a podcast on ABC, and
Speaker 2: it was someone that went to meet with her and
Speaker 2: had a discussion and I would like to just play
Speaker 2: a little bit of that. When was there to be
Speaker 2: pleased the interview? So this was released in twenty sixteen. Okay, yep,
Speaker 2: so this was on ABC on a podcast called Life Matters.
Speaker 2: State this wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 3: I wanted my mother for Wily to help across his
Speaker 3: team a number of times prior to befits occurring, and
Speaker 3: you know, I fell through the cracks, as a lot
Speaker 3: of women do.
Speaker 5: So there's kind of true, like there's your individual responsibility.
Speaker 5: But at the time when this happened, you told a
Speaker 5: lot of people what you were thinking about, and nobody
Speaker 5: helped you. Nobody told Joe, nobody told the police. So
Speaker 5: how much fault do you place on the people around you.
Speaker 3: I don't want to put the fold is mine, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean. I don't want to put the
Speaker 3: fold is mine for not listening to people and seeking out.
Speaker 1: The mental health support that I should have.
Speaker 3: Writed, so you take responsibility for absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 5: So the film that's currently been made, what's in post
Speaker 5: production of Helen Garner's book Joting Ways Constellation? Yeah, how
Speaker 5: do you feel about that? Very soon, within the next
Speaker 5: six months or so, there's going to be a film
Speaker 5: where you are the lead character.
Speaker 3: It's very confronting again to have to relieve all of that,
Speaker 3: and I do fear that, because it's based on Helen's book,
Speaker 3: that it won't adequately explore the mental health aspects. I
Speaker 3: guess there's a sense of I don't know what the
Speaker 3: what what's going to happen?
Speaker 1: So I have a kind of uncertainty.
Speaker 5: Have you been contacted by the filmmakers?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 5: Do you wish that you were contacted by them so
Speaker 5: that you could participate in some way?
Speaker 3: Well, on that point of female evans being talked to
Speaker 3: rather being brother than being talked about, it would have
Speaker 3: been nice if they've kind of talked to me and
Speaker 3: I don't know, gained some understanding about where I was
Speaker 3: at that in that at that time.
Speaker 5: Why do you think they haven't.
Speaker 3: Because I guess they're not interested. I haven't seen the film,
Speaker 3: so I don't know what it's what, it's how I'm
Speaker 3: going to be portrayed. But I guess, like Helen's book,
Speaker 3: there's a particular angle I assume that they're going to
Speaker 3: base it on, and so mine wouldn't be relevant to that,
Speaker 3: especially if you want to paint me is evil rather
Speaker 3: than mentally ill or there's no need to talk to it.
Speaker 5: Do you see yourself as mental as supposed to evil?
Speaker 5: You know, if you're not right now, but looking back at.
Speaker 3: Twenty years, yeah, absolutely off the planet mentally mentally and will.
Speaker 3: And this is saying that you know, evil is rare,
Speaker 3: but mental illness is real. You know, having been treated
Speaker 3: now adequately, I can see just how I'm.
Speaker 1: Really unwell I was.
Speaker 2: Now. That is a thirty minute interview. I found it fascinating.
Speaker 2: I think it's a few listeners sent it to us
Speaker 2: at Chris Audio. I mean you can some of the
Speaker 2: great audio, but.
Speaker 1: I mean, podcast been around very long now, sixteen that's
Speaker 1: probably good for a podcasting.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it is. It is a really, really difficult interview.
Speaker 2: She says that she was prescribed zoloft and that made
Speaker 2: everything better. She realized that if she had been prescribed
Speaker 2: zoloft earlier, none of this would have happened. She blames
Speaker 2: it all on the doctors that misdiagnosed her, which is
Speaker 2: heinous in itself because.
Speaker 1: Zoloft is an antidepressants.
Speaker 2: Great yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: She was claiming far more than depressions.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it was. It was a severe mental
Speaker 2: health issue, like she was in crisis mode. She was
Speaker 2: meant to be did quite a few times by her parents.
Speaker 2: She didn't end up going. That interview is wild. It is.
Speaker 2: It's just a fascinating, fascinating interview, and I think it
Speaker 2: is really interesting the way that she talks about Obviously
Speaker 2: she doesn't blame the other people, but to ask the
Speaker 2: question were you mentally ill or evil? Is such a
Speaker 2: such an interesting line of questioning. I find it really interesting. Firstly,
Speaker 2: she didn't sound like I thought she would sound. She
Speaker 2: sounds old, a lot older. When you kind of paint
Speaker 2: a picture of someone, you.
Speaker 1: Go, oh my god, that twenties.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. And then now she is doing her well.
Speaker 2: She used to actually finished her PhD on the women
Speaker 2: in I don't know what it was called, but it
Speaker 2: was like women are incarcerated, and she talks about this
Speaker 2: now and she's saying, yep, but there's there's more issues.
Speaker 2: She continually says in the podcast, there are more issue
Speaker 2: at stake. It's about women who are incarcerated. It's about
Speaker 2: the numbers that are increasing. Why are they doing this?
Speaker 2: And there is no point she goes, I killed Joe Chinque.
Speaker 2: There is nothing about that. It is just her continually
Speaker 2: saying why we're not going to the wider issues, the
Speaker 2: bigger issues. It's like, because the big issue is you
Speaker 2: murdered your boyfriend at the time.
Speaker 1: What angered me about that snippet there is that she said, Well,
Speaker 1: if they're basing it off Helen Garner's book, then they
Speaker 1: won't want to speak to me because they just want
Speaker 1: to portray me as evil. But you read the book
Speaker 1: and came out of that saying I have a totally
Speaker 1: new view on Yeah, yeah, yep, because I understood through
Speaker 1: reading the book about her mental health struggles.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that's fascinating for her to go, well, she just
Speaker 1: wants to blame me, Yeah yeah, fascinating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and thank you to all the people that had
Speaker 2: sent me that, Like that is so interesting as just
Speaker 2: a point of I guess after you do it. I
Speaker 2: did not listen to it before I did the episode,
Speaker 2: which shows what great research I do. But you know,
Speaker 2: I'm a journalist and you're not. But but yeah, but
Speaker 2: it was really interesting and we've had, you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of letters that have come after that as well,
Speaker 2: like a lot of beautiful, beautiful Internet letters. And we're
Speaker 2: going to go soon to the letters, but I just
Speaker 2: wanted to kind of read this one from a wonderful listener. Renee,
Speaker 2: does this.
Speaker 1: Not us going to the letters now? Then kick it
Speaker 1: off with this?
Speaker 2: Well, you know it's a lot more ating for me,
Speaker 2: but yeah, sure, Hey, Sammy and g it's Renee again.
Speaker 2: Just a quick note. In the Joe Chinkway episode, you
Speaker 2: talked about that terrifying moment of having to call Triple
Speaker 2: zero without knowing the exact address. Not that that was
Speaker 2: her issue, but it's such a real world fear. So
Speaker 2: I want to share a handy tip I learned during
Speaker 2: my first aid course. Thought you might want to share
Speaker 2: it with your listeners. You never know when it might
Speaker 2: save a life. In Australia, there's an app called Emergency
Speaker 2: Plus that uses a system called what three Words, which
Speaker 2: breaks the entire world into tiny three meters squares, each
Speaker 2: identify by a unique three word address. If you call
Speaker 2: Triple zero through the app, you can simply read out
Speaker 2: those three words and the operator will know your exact
Speaker 2: location instantly. If you can also use the three word
Speaker 2: address even if you don't call. Sorry, you can also
Speaker 2: use the three letter word address even if you don't
Speaker 2: call through the app by using the emergency plus. It
Speaker 2: makes it easier because it combines GPS location, what three words,
Speaker 2: and calling Triple zero all in one go. More info
Speaker 2: here and she's put she's put the the yeah, the
Speaker 2: dress below, which I'll put in these show notes stay horrendous,
Speaker 2: Love you guys, R But yeah, but I thought that
Speaker 2: was interesting. Yeah, what an interesting thing?
Speaker 4: Though?
Speaker 2: Was a you know when when you think about how
Speaker 2: long that call talk.
Speaker 1: Well, that's as she said, It wasn't her, that wasn't
Speaker 1: knew the dress.
Speaker 2: Just interesting thing and one thing. Now we're going to
Speaker 2: go to the bag. Thanks everybody for listening to this
Speaker 2: week's episode, stunningly recorded over two parts because geez, goddamn
Speaker 2: phone played up on her.
Speaker 1: You didn't have to tell them.
Speaker 2: I wanted to tell them that we.
Speaker 1: Don't have to be that honest to them. If there's
Speaker 1: anything you want to have to be honest about it.
Speaker 1: I could have dressed the same.
Speaker 2: I could not have. I have a beautiful lifetime black
Speaker 2: pants and white T shirt. I can do that again.
Speaker 1: If we've learned anything from Andrew Fraser is that it's
Speaker 1: you don't need to know the full story to get
Speaker 1: a good story and to be acquitted. So you shouldn't
Speaker 1: have told the listeners we did in two parts because
Speaker 1: my friend stuffed up.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, thank you for telling me that episode in
Speaker 2: two parts too. In two parts. It's such an interesting story.
Speaker 1: It's just so fascinating. It's just one of those ones
Speaker 1: that's like, I don't know, I'm obsessed with them. And yeah,
Speaker 1: Killing Time is amazing.
Speaker 2: I need to watch that. Yeah, how old? Is that serious?
Speaker 2: It's an old one?
Speaker 1: Well yes, well, I mean I am making this up
Speaker 1: here like I'm just guessing. But around about twenty I.
Speaker 2: Love that David when God, I love that day. Yeah,
Speaker 2: diver Dan. He was in Bloody Lord of the Rings.
Speaker 1: Diver Dan was in Lord of the Rings. That was
Speaker 1: his character name, Lord of the Rings, Lord of the Ringsie.
Speaker 2: I kept calling him diver Dan.
Speaker 1: I would have loved that.
Speaker 2: I'm sure are you ready for the mail?
Speaker 1: You know I am.
Speaker 2: We love, we love hearing from you. Please write in
Speaker 2: to Sami at just another company dot com dot au.
Speaker 2: Another way is simply leaving us a voicemail. We call
Speaker 2: that a speak pipe. Are you ready for this?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: This one comes from somebody by the name of Bought
Speaker 2: Ready bought.
Speaker 6: Once again from frigid western North Carolina. As far as
Speaker 6: things go, uh, just reaching out see it if you're
Speaker 6: aware of a story. It's a story about the McDonald
Speaker 6: murders that happened back in the seventies at Fort Bragg.
Speaker 6: That's also in North Carolina, the other side of the state.
Speaker 6: But as far as things go, there's a great book
Speaker 6: called Fatal Vision written by a journalists named Joe McGinnis
Speaker 6: that you should read. I think you guys would have
Speaker 6: at least an interesting time covering it. A little bit
Speaker 6: in controversy that came out after the book was released
Speaker 6: from a journalist named Janet Malcolm. I'm sure that's also
Speaker 6: something that you guys could discuss. But appreciate the podcast.
Speaker 6: You'll be good, be safe, I'll take it easy.
Speaker 1: I'm ubsessed.
Speaker 2: Voice is amazing, amazing.
Speaker 1: I could hear him say, North Carolina.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, day but.
Speaker 1: We love you, my god.
Speaker 2: I love that we have inter It's so good. We
Speaker 2: had to look into that though.
Speaker 1: What a tea?
Speaker 2: Like? What a hook?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean I'm going to go straight home and research
Speaker 1: both of them now and.
Speaker 2: Bring them to bro. That's all you know about. We've
Speaker 2: got another speak pipe today that comes from someone who
Speaker 2: has voice smiled in before. This is repeat yeah from
Speaker 2: gym Hi.
Speaker 4: I am just calling because I just had the most
Speaker 4: freshening jumps. I got back into my car.
Speaker 1: Take it.
Speaker 4: I was listening to the friend and May West Mary West.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 4: Like i'd stopped it when she was in the car
Speaker 4: class horrific.
Speaker 1: She's five, Oh yeah, subjected to that. But I put
Speaker 1: it back on and.
Speaker 3: It went to the part where you gasped so loudly.
Speaker 2: And so out of the blue. And I had not.
Speaker 4: Under like, like I zoned out because I dropped her
Speaker 4: off and stuff, so I had no understanding of the context.
Speaker 4: My car, my home's still raising so fast, Oh my goodness,
Speaker 4: I was like resting out of the car.
Speaker 2: I just went.
Speaker 3: Away.
Speaker 1: I needed that wake up call.
Speaker 4: Anyways, I love you guys so much.
Speaker 1: Bye, oh my god, jem I do apologize. I listen
Speaker 1: back to our episodes and I hear some of my
Speaker 1: reactions and they're not good.
Speaker 2: You're a gasp.
Speaker 1: I don't have a poker face nor a poker voice.
Speaker 1: It sounds it seems I'm really sorry about the job
Speaker 1: scared Jem, But hey, it's a spooky woekie podcast, so
Speaker 1: you gotta expect these pink are with this from Ryan
Speaker 1: that came from on Instagram.
Speaker 2: On the Eileen Warnos epp, how beautiful people, Happy Monday?
Speaker 2: Just finishing your epp on Eileen Ari. The death penalty
Speaker 2: and extended waiting times, my understanding is there a few
Speaker 2: factors at play. First is that there are automatic appeals
Speaker 2: for death sentences, which obviously take time working through the courts. Secondly,
Speaker 2: and much more confusingly, federal and state laws and individual
Speaker 2: constitutional rights are always brought up what is considered cruel
Speaker 2: and unusual as a means of death, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 1: So in every individual case that's argued, well, we brought up.
Speaker 2: Currently, I believe a lot of inmates are waiting on
Speaker 2: death row because there hasn't been a viable chemical option
Speaker 2: for lethal injection. Doctors don't want to play a part
Speaker 2: in it generally, but would be required to, and drug
Speaker 2: manufacturers are also somewhat hesitant to sell drugs specifically for
Speaker 2: death sentence.
Speaker 1: It makes a lot of sad.
Speaker 2: Interesting though, there's so much that goes into it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow's to that Ryan. That's amazing. I was saying, why
Speaker 1: do people always live on death row for so long?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And we actually got names.
Speaker 2: People are listening, who are listening, And we've got this one.
Speaker 2: I'll land on this one from Renee. Hey, Sammy and
Speaker 2: g It's Renee from Sydney, the woman who had the
Speaker 2: frog appear on her fence during the Muppet reference. Oh
Speaker 2: look Hermie. My Spotify wrap twenty and twenty five just
Speaker 2: dropped and guess who's it? The top YouTube? Yeah, photo attached,
Speaker 2: just proof and you attached quite a few photos there.
Speaker 2: It's so good. Please keep being your amazing selves, you guys.
Speaker 2: Rock Mondays and Thursdays are quickly becoming my favorite days
Speaker 2: of the week. Also side note, I sometimes listen to
Speaker 2: your episodes out of order, depending on the length. I say,
Speaker 2: the longer ones the house work, and honestly it makes
Speaker 2: my weekends so much better. I recently listened to the
Speaker 2: episode where you talked about the host a murder game
Speaker 2: missing pieces. Yeah, and I thought you'd appreciate this story.
Speaker 2: My parents hosted a host murder party for their combined
Speaker 2: birthdays and the whole family traveled for it, costumes and all.
Speaker 2: To make it more dramatic, we made a body out
Speaker 2: of stockings, foam and balloons, dressed it up and threw
Speaker 2: it in the pool. Oh this isn't amazing. We did
Speaker 2: have to warn all the neighbors out of time so
Speaker 2: they wouldn't spot a body floating from their windows and
Speaker 2: call emergency services. Thankfully, the party went off without a
Speaker 2: hitch and without any lights or sirens. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: keep being amazing and I hope you both have a
Speaker 2: wonderful festive season. It's almost time for a Muppet Christmas
Speaker 2: Carol stay horrendous Renee from Sydney and she listened to
Speaker 2: five thousand, eight hundred and eighty three minutes This year
Speaker 2: of us we are the top above the Daily Oz Whatever,
Speaker 2: the Teacher's Back, the Teachers Trial and Unravel whoa top podcast?
Speaker 2: How amazing is that? That's a lot of us and we,
Speaker 2: Oh my god, how good is that?
Speaker 1: I love that so many of you messaged us with
Speaker 1: us in your top five ranking and Spotify we love it. Hey, Sam,
Speaker 1: I didn't ask you what was your top artist and your.
Speaker 2: Top song mister Higgins? Really yeah, mister Higgins and a
Speaker 2: billy ocean with a big big artists.
Speaker 1: Yours obviously the Hamilton.
Speaker 2: Listening Agent sixty seven, I think it was.
Speaker 1: Mine was twenty six, so young and higher.
Speaker 2: You are actually love.
Speaker 1: I'm sexy, I'm cute. Well I'm popular too, bood.
Speaker 2: That's red food.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you this question? G love hearing from wonderful,
Speaker 2: wonderful people on Instagram dot com. We got a huge
Speaker 2: celebrity follow recently. I'm just gonna oh my god, yes,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say a huge celebrity follow recently. I had
Speaker 2: someone right in and say, hey, there was a reference
Speaker 2: that you made in the episode. I have to send
Speaker 2: it to this person because I know them. They sent
Speaker 2: the episode. I found it because the great thing you
Speaker 2: level to this about our Spotify is it.
Speaker 1: Story has been told perfectly, but it's got the markers.
Speaker 2: So I can just go on, Fine, what we're talking
Speaker 2: about in that time, which is great because we don't
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 7: Tell me who this this person said, I'm a listener
Speaker 7: of yours, and I remember in one of the episodes
Speaker 7: you were talking about bin Boy.
Speaker 1: For those of you who don't know, first of all,
Speaker 1: go back and god damn list see under Godamn Rock.
Speaker 1: Sammy his corporate job. His title is bid manager. A
Speaker 1: friend of his sincerely thought he said bin manager, and
Speaker 1: then he was working with Bins in his corporate office.
Speaker 1: That was very funny. Obviously now we call him the
Speaker 1: bin Manager. We saw a garbage truck drive past one
Speaker 1: day that said one eight hundred bin Boy, and it
Speaker 1: had like follow us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, which we
Speaker 1: thought was hilarious. Went on YouTube. There are just videos
Speaker 1: following this garbage man around doing and we discussed this
Speaker 1: on the podcast. One day, we got a message on
Speaker 1: instagram dot com at not Another Crime podcast saying, my
Speaker 1: friend is bin Boy.
Speaker 2: That's why I need.
Speaker 1: To play him this snippet of the episode. I said, Hi,
Speaker 1: thanks for following, send him the whole episode, make him
Speaker 1: listen to the whole back catalog. Please tell a friend,
Speaker 1: leave a five star rating, five star review, and then you.
Speaker 1: Sammy kindly sent her the snippet and bin Boy himself
Speaker 1: one eight hundred bin Boy followed us on Instagram.
Speaker 2: Absolutely huge.
Speaker 1: It's huge versus Sammy's career, idol news and his what
Speaker 1: do you call person?
Speaker 2: You like?
Speaker 1: Look up to him, want to be like mentor hero.
Speaker 1: I don't have anyone like that in my life. I
Speaker 1: am that for myself.
Speaker 2: Okay, look in the mirror and tell yourself you're beautiful.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I will bin Boy if you're listening, we
Speaker 1: are big fans and also apparently allegedly some of the
Speaker 1: YouTube videos now even have speaking yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And one of our friends, Franny, who listens to this
Speaker 1: as well, when we discuss Binboy in the first place,
Speaker 1: she said, my three year old son is exactly who
Speaker 1: these bin Boy videos are for. He's obsessed with them.
Speaker 2: It's so good to know there's young bin boys out there.
Speaker 2: That's what I want to know.
Speaker 1: He's exciting for you, and you can be the mentor
Speaker 1: and the hero to Franny's son.
Speaker 2: That's lovely to say, that's lovely to say. Hate everyone
Speaker 2: for listening. We told you how to write into ards leader. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and as always, as we say before we do the
Speaker 2: poor repeave as always.
Speaker 1: I know, but then people think if wrapping up the episode.
Speaker 2: And they'll turn off everyone watch on YouTube. That is
Speaker 2: great if you want on YouTube.
Speaker 1: And then you can watch Binboy afterwards.
Speaker 2: That's right. Thank you Oliver Clark as always for doing
Speaker 2: the goddamn theme music. Thank you for Tams and Hayes
Speaker 2: for doing the Artworkly a five star rating, five star
Speaker 2: review and share this podcast with a friend, tag us
Speaker 2: on social media the morning. Come on, move on.
Speaker 1: You're just trying to think of a poor drypeat.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I know I could tell you a padding. Mine is
Speaker 1: plane related because we were on a plane to Tazzy.
Speaker 1: It is people who put their aeroplane chairs back on
Speaker 1: a one hour flight. Don't like it, don't The planes
Speaker 1: are so small. If you need to sleep on that flight,
Speaker 1: that's fine. But if you're that tired that you need
Speaker 1: to sleep in that one hour less than one hour,
Speaker 1: you don't need to put your chair back for it
Speaker 1: doesn't do anything and it just makes a person behind
Speaker 1: you very uncomp Okay.
Speaker 2: Well, mine is the people that put the window thing
Speaker 2: down on the way over. I had someone that put
Speaker 2: the window down. It was one hour flight.
Speaker 1: Maybe they were hot from the sun through the window.
Speaker 2: It was late in the days.
Speaker 1: Then grow up to grow up and grow up window people.
Speaker 2: And I was in the window on the way did
Speaker 2: you do it? Next to me had that No, I'd
Speaker 2: never I never put it down. The girls next to
Speaker 2: me had some dakyries on the way over. What do
Speaker 2: you mean that dakeriesries? Domestic lackyries? O. Yeah, and they're
Speaker 2: on schoolies. I'm pretty sure that that's amazing. When Dick
Speaker 2: had a lovely dogs who's very excited all weekend.
Speaker 1: Oh, he's absolutely zonked down because he played with busy
Speaker 1: Bee for a while. Busy Bee, there is a crime
Speaker 1: scene around. There is like literally toy fluff scattered everywhere.
Speaker 2: Oh god, Digs absolutely rocking it. Anyway, everybody will see
Speaker 2: you on Thursday. Love you all. Goodbye or your beautiful
Speaker 2: set of the Mirror Bye,