1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: It's a Happy Families podcast with Dr Justin Coilson, where 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Luke and Susie parents of three little boys, and this 3 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:09,800 Speaker 1: is the podcast for those of us who are time 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: poor parents. 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 2: But just one answers now how to help kids be 6 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 2: hopeful when they feel hopeless. We have one child in 7 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 2: particular who drops to a state of feeling hopeless very 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 2: quickly on things. 9 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: And the interesting thing is, sus on this topic, forget 10 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: the children, let's just navigate life in this space, because 11 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: one of the most recent things my therapist said to 12 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: me was an acknowledgment that I live a life where 13 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: hopelessness is not an option, and so therefore, if something 14 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: seems hopeless, I shut it down, I shut it out, and. 15 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 3: I move on. 16 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: So maybe I've got some brokenness to try and deal with. 17 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: In the midst of this conversation, Doctor Justin Coilson from 18 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 2: Happy Families dot com dot au, we are really going 19 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 2: to be interested in your response on this. How do 20 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 2: you help kids be hopeful when they feel hopeless? 21 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 4: Really hard, isn't it, Because as parents we sort of 22 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 4: say I think a lot of the wrong things. 23 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 3: Now when the kids are down, we say, oh, come on, 24 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 3: it's not that bad. 25 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 4: Has anyone ever said that to you when you're feeling lousy? Oh, 26 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 4: cheer up, it's not that bad. And don't you just 27 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 4: want to punch him in the. 28 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 3: Mouth hard enough that it will be that bad? 29 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: Yeah? 30 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you don't know what I'm going through. 31 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 3: It actually is that bad. 32 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 4: If it wasn't that bad, I wouldn't be feeling this bad. 33 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 4: Or people say, you know, come on, snap out of it. 34 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 4: Come on, you know what, what's good in your life? 35 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 4: Tell me something you're grateful for. And when you're feeling 36 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 4: that low, when you're feeling hopeless, it's hard to find 37 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 4: anything to be grateful for. Gratitude's a wonderful way to 38 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 4: improve well being. But I'll tell you what, it can 39 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 4: be really hard to feel grateful when you feel hopeless. 40 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: You know what, I find strangers in the midst of that. 41 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: One of the go tos that tends to encourage a 42 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: lot of people. Not me, but it tends to encourage 43 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people. And I don't understand it is 44 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: going well, there's always somebody worse off. 45 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, we call that downward social comparison. 46 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: Okay, because I look at that and I go, how 47 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: does that make me feel better, Yeah, to go Okay, 48 00:01:59,080 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: it could get worse. 49 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, the world can be a really horrible place. 50 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: But we somehow get some ability to calm ourselves because 51 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, we're not the worst off. 52 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 4: So yeah, So all of these things what we would 53 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 4: loosely call dismissing a person's emotion. Somebody's feeling hopeless and 54 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 4: we are trying to, I guess, distract them from that hopelessness. 55 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: And we kind of want that, don't we, Because in 56 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: a sense, if we get to shut it out quickly, 57 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: it's the quickest way to deal with the feeling is 58 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: to pretend it doesn't exist. 59 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 4: It's a quick fix, right, But like any band aid fix, 60 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 4: it can be ripped off very quickly, and quite often 61 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 4: it rips away the scab that was trying to heal underneath. Look, 62 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 4: there's this wonderful idea that was developed around about twenty 63 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 4: years ago by some researchers in the US, Shane Lopez 64 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 4: and Charles Snyder, and it's called hope theory. And this 65 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 4: I think is a wonderful antidote to the problem of 66 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 4: feeling hopeless. It's how we build hope in our kids. 67 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 4: And we need to have three things all three have 68 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 4: got to be present. If one is missing, there's no hope. 69 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 4: And if we're not hopeful, we're hope less hope. It 70 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 4: doesn't sound very nice, does it. The three things got 71 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 4: to have a goal, got to have a pathway, and 72 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 4: got to have the belief that you can walk along 73 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 4: that pathway to the goal. Now, I want to be 74 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 4: clear before I speak to these three points. Some people 75 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 4: feel so hopeless that these three points won't be enough 76 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 4: and they need to go and see somebody and get 77 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 4: professional help. 78 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 3: Okay. 79 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:28,839 Speaker 4: The other thing to highlight is that if we're trying 80 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 4: to give our kids hope because they feel hopelessness, doing 81 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 4: it when they're feeling absolutely awful is not usually the best. 82 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 3: Time to do it. 83 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 4: Research would suggest that when they're feeling like they are 84 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 4: happy to chat and the emotions aren't so great, it 85 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 4: might be the best time. 86 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: I'm an ice cream first. 87 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 4: Go and get an ice cream, Go for a walk, 88 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 4: spend some time in nature, get up for something nice 89 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 4: to do in the mornings. This is the best time 90 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 4: to have these conversations. And we need these three things goals, pathways, 91 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 4: and what psychologists call agency. 92 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 3: So it might go like this, So you know, what 93 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 3: do you really want? Nothing? Yeah, I know, I know 94 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 3: it's hard, isn't it. 95 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 4: But if there was one thing that you did want, 96 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 4: if there was one thing you were working toward, one 97 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 4: thing that you're looking forward to, one thing that you 98 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 4: think will be good that's coming up in the future, 99 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 4: what would it be. 100 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: See. 101 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 4: If we've got a goal, if we've got something to 102 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 4: look forward to, then we've got a reason to keep going, 103 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 4: got a reason to get out of bed, got a 104 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 4: reason to go to school've got a reason to go 105 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 4: to work. 106 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 3: We just need to have a goal. 107 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 4: And quite often when you talk to people who are hopeless, 108 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 4: they don't have any goals. They're just dragging themselves through 109 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 4: day after day after day with nothing that they're working towards. 110 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 4: Once we've got a goal established, and it can be 111 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 4: the smallest little goal, it doesn't matter, it's just got 112 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 4: to be a goal, then we say, okay, well how 113 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 4: are you going to get there? 114 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 3: That's the pathways thinking. 115 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 4: People who are hopeful identify more pathways to their goal 116 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 4: than people who are hopeless. 117 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 3: But we just need one pathway. That's all we need. 118 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 3: Because if we've got a pathway, we can get there. 119 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 3: But that's still not. I remember a girl that I 120 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 3: was working with one time and their family. She was hopeless. 121 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 3: She was fifteen years old. She hated school, she hated life. 122 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 4: She didn't want to be anywhere, and as we talked 123 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 4: about what she hoped for, she said. 124 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 3: I just want to work either in childcare or hairdressing. 125 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 4: I want to get out of school. I hate school, 126 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 4: I hate my life. We discussed that these were two 127 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 4: exciting goals, and then we looked at the pathways. 128 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 3: To those goals. She threw her hands up in there 129 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 3: and said, oh, never do either of them. It's too hard. 130 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 3: I said, well, there are pathways. 131 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 4: We discussed the childcare pathway that required more school and 132 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 4: she had to get another qualification. 133 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 3: She said, it's too hard. I don't want to do it. 134 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 4: We discussed hairdressing and recognized that there were some people 135 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,040 Speaker 4: in her circle who could give her a leg up 136 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 4: so that she could have some maybe a trainee ship 137 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 4: as a hairdresser. 138 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 3: She came alive. She felt so good because she could 139 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 3: now see a pathway to that goal. But she needed 140 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 3: one more thing. 141 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 4: She needed that agency, that belief that she had the 142 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 4: power to walk along that pathway. 143 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 3: We got the trainee ship. 144 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 4: On day two or day three, she used the scissors 145 00:05:57,800 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 4: to open up a poster. 146 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 3: You know, you know how magazines often have a poster 147 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:02,799 Speaker 3: in the middle. 148 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 4: She used the scissors to leave her the staple and 149 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 4: the staple damage the scissors. Now hairdresser and scissors. I 150 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 4: didn't know this, but by golly, they're expensive. And the 151 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 4: hairdresser wasn't very polite in the way she chastised this girl. 152 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 3: And the girl just threw her arms up in the 153 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 3: air and said, I can't do this. She ran away. 154 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 4: She never went back because she didn't have the belief 155 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 4: that she could actually walk along the pathway. That chewing 156 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 4: out that she got from the hairdresser was enough. It 157 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 4: was too much for her. But it shows the importance 158 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 4: of having all three What do you want? How are 159 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 4: you going to get there? Do you believe you can? 160 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 4: Now if we can have a conversation with our kids 161 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 4: where we just asked those three questions, what do you want? 162 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 4: How are you going to get there? Do you believe 163 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 4: that you can? And maybe a fourth one, how can 164 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 4: I support you? We build hope, and all of a sudden, 165 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 4: the world is not so scary and life is worth living. 166 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: And we found this for the smallest of things, because 167 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: our boys might not overall feel hopeless, but on a 168 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: little thing like as soon as you did this very 169 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: thing when he had a project that fell apart the 170 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: day before it was due, and he was devastated, and 171 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: you walk through this, Okay, what is it that we 172 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: need to achieve? You know, like, how do we do this? 173 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: And then once a solution was found, complete calm and excitement, 174 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: and they went and did it and everything was great. 175 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 3: Three things, a goal, a pathway, and a belief that 176 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 3: you can do it, which included part four two with 177 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 3: how can I help? 178 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: How can I help? And it was in the midst 179 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: of that that gave him the confidence that he could 180 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: go get it done. 181 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 4: And resilience And you know what, the research again shows 182 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 4: that when we do this stuff with our kids, they 183 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 4: become more resilience, their well being is higher. 184 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 3: They discovered that. Well I fixed that before, so now 185 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 3: I know how to fix this in the future. 186 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, well done. 187 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 3: Suits, by the way, well done. 188 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: Wonderful, wonderful feedback on the project too. It all were 189 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,559 Speaker 1: I hope you got an air doctor. 190 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 3: Justin Kilson, thank you so much for your time. It's 191 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 3: always enlightened. Yeah, great to chat. Thanks guys. 192 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a moment to 193 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: rate it on iTunes. When you do that, it increases 194 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: the visibility of the podcast and helps more people to 195 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: find it. And if you're not a subscriber, jump onto 196 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts and subscribe so that you can hear every 197 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 2: episode as soon as it is uploaded. For more information 198 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 2: on all of doctor Justin Coulson's books, programs, and podcasts, 199 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: go to Happy Families dot com dot au. Or if 200 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: you'd like to have doctor Justin Coulson speak at your 201 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: school or event, go to Justinculson dot com.