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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Famili's podcast, the podcast for the time,

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Speaker 1: Poor Parent who just wants Answers Now. Doctor Justin Coolson

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Speaker 1: sharing today on the issue of anxiety. How do we

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Speaker 1: recognize it in our children? And then what do we

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Speaker 1: do if we do recognize it? I'm Susie. Luke's here

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Speaker 1: as well. Let's get into it.

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Speaker 2: Well, so glad you're here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we need you because basically I don't know how

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Speaker 3: we parent without you in our house.

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Speaker 1: We've had a child diagnosed with social anxiety. So recognizing

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Speaker 1: anxiety in our kids big topic for us, but I

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Speaker 1: think it is for a lot of family.

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Speaker 4: Yes, statistically, anxiety is My friend Michael Gross has just

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Speaker 4: written a book about anxiety and kids with doctor Jodie Richardson,

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Speaker 4: and they call it the common cold for kids in

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Speaker 4: the psychological world.

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Speaker 5: It's being diagnosed all over the place.

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Speaker 4: It's such a such a big deal and so debilitating

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Speaker 4: for our kids, as you would be experienced.

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Speaker 3: Is there a perception that is getting worse or is

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Speaker 3: there just a perception that we've been neglectful of understanding it.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I think there's a whole host of things, Luke.

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Speaker 4: There's there's arguments that is being over diagnosed. There's certainly

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Speaker 4: an argument that the definition has expanded and the criteria

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Speaker 4: for meeting it has been loosened, so therefore more people

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Speaker 4: are experiencing it. There's also the idea that the more

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Speaker 4: people know about it, the more they're identifying it within themselves.

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Speaker 4: Once upon a time, we didn't talk about this stuff.

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Speaker 4: Now everybody's going, oh, well, I have anxious moments, maybe

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Speaker 4: I've got anxiety.

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Speaker 5: We're seeing.

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Speaker 4: There's evidence that we're overprotecting our children and our paranoid parenting.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you think about it. If you're paranoid, your

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Speaker 4: kids are going to be paranoid. I'm using the word loosely,

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Speaker 4: by the way, Please, I'm being a little bit living

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Speaker 4: a bit loose.

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Speaker 5: But you know, if the research shows that if we're highly.

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Speaker 4: Controlling as parents, and I recognize as soon as I

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Speaker 4: say this, that some parents are going to start introspectively

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Speaker 4: getting anxious about the most skilled person talking about anxiety

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Speaker 4: can still invoke anxiety in others.

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Speaker 5: So a little bit of a trigger warning here.

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Speaker 4: But if you, as a parent are highly controlling, what

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Speaker 4: happens is you're essentially saying to your child, I believe

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Speaker 4: that the world is unsafe, and therefore I need to

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Speaker 4: control and under control what you're doing and where you're

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Speaker 4: going and who you're being with, because I don't think

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Speaker 4: that anything is safe. What your child learns, therefore, is

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Speaker 4: that the world is unsafe, and so they become anxious

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Speaker 4: because they believe the world's unsafe because you've taught them

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Speaker 4: the world is unsafe. As you see their anxiety and

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Speaker 4: their unwillingness to try new things or go new places

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Speaker 4: or experience novel events. What then happens is you think, oh,

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Speaker 4: my goodness, my child is anxious, so I need to

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Speaker 4: protect them even more.

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Speaker 5: So we get this cycle, which is terribly damaging.

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Speaker 4: Now the evidence shows that parents are much more controlling

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Speaker 4: and much more anxious than they ever have been. But

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Speaker 4: this can be overcome. And I'm certainly not shaming parents

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Speaker 4: right now, nor am I trying to make them feel

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Speaker 4: guilty or anxious about their parenting, just highlighting a trend

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Speaker 4: that seems to be increasingly evident when we look at

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Speaker 4: how parents are doing.

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Speaker 5: The good news is we can work around this.

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Speaker 4: But I think the most important thing is we've got

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Speaker 4: to be able to recognize what anxiety is.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's start at that point. Then, if we're looking

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Speaker 1: at recognizing anxiety in our children, what is anxiety?

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Speaker 4: Well, we could get really technical, but you can find

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Speaker 4: the technical stuff on the end. Look up the Diagnostic

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Speaker 4: and Statistical Manual. It's the kind of like the Bible

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Speaker 4: for psychologists, a psychiatrists, people who work in medical and

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Speaker 4: medical areas around mental health. They use the DSM and

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Speaker 4: it's got all the fancy definitions of what anxiety actually is.

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Speaker 5: For our purposes, for our.

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Speaker 4: Conversation today, I think it's easy to keep it fairly simple.

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Speaker 4: Anxiety is the brain's natural response to something that could

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Speaker 4: harm us. So if we experience anxiety, what happens is

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Speaker 4: the amigdala, the part of the brain that's in charge

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Speaker 4: of regulating fear responses. In our emotional brain, it says,

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Speaker 4: watch out, watch out, watch out, stay away, And all

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Speaker 4: of a sudden we're on alert, we're on higher work

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Speaker 4: because the anxiety increases, need to stay away from this.

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Speaker 5: That's kind of what anxiety is.

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Speaker 4: It's a fear response that says I need to be

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Speaker 4: aware something bad might happen here.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's not a bad thing, not all.

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Speaker 3: That's actually a good level of anxiety should be warning

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Speaker 3: us to.

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Speaker 4: This is what I say to parents all the time.

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Speaker 4: If your kids are a bit anxious, or if you're

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Speaker 4: a bit anxious, be glad. Anxiety keeps us safe. The

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Speaker 4: problem with an anxiety disorder or somebody who is just

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Speaker 4: highly or over anxious, so let's not even get into

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Speaker 4: the psychopathology just a really anxious kid is that they

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Speaker 4: start to get anxious about everything. They start to see

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Speaker 4: something to be worried about in everything. And what research

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Speaker 4: tells us with kids that have got anxiety is that

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Speaker 4: they're actually drawn to threatening information. And so something that's

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Speaker 4: completely ambiguous, something is not really dangerous at all, nothing threatening,

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Speaker 4: they will hear it and wonder, I wonder if I

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Speaker 4: could perceive something dangerous about that. And what then happens

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Speaker 4: is they tend to dwell on it for much longer.

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Speaker 4: They ruminate, they cogitate, They're like, oh, my goodness, do I.

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Speaker 5: Need to be worried about this?

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Speaker 4: I think that I should be worried because this sounds

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Speaker 4: like it could be scary. You know, at the dinner table,

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Speaker 4: we might say something about what we're going to get

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Speaker 4: up to this weekend, and it could be completely innocuous,

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Speaker 4: completely safe, or.

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Speaker 5: I might have a little a degree of ambiguity.

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Speaker 4: We're going to go for a walk in the hints

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Speaker 4: land and when we walk up there, it just make

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Speaker 4: sure it's away from the edge, because there are going

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Speaker 4: to be some cliffs, and all of a sudden, one

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Speaker 4: child's going to be like, Oh, that sounds awesome. We're

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Speaker 4: going to have family time, we're going to be in nature,

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Speaker 4: we're going to be exploring, we're going to be adventuring.

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Speaker 4: And the child who has that predisposition towards anxiety says, oh,

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Speaker 4: I don't want to do it, because if there's cliffs,

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Speaker 4: something might happen to me or somebody that I love,

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Speaker 4: and they ruminate over it and they're drawn to that

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Speaker 4: aspect of the information. So that's kind of what's going

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Speaker 4: on in the meigals going O red alert and the

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Speaker 4: prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that's in charge

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Speaker 4: of thinking things through logically, gets overridden.

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Speaker 3: Our nephew one time asked a question when he was

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Speaker 3: going on school camp. Is there palm trees, sorry, coconut trees,

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Speaker 3: And they said, yes, there's some coconut trees around. He said,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going, and he refused to go because a

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Speaker 3: week earlier, someone had said more people die from coconuts

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Speaker 3: falling on your head, whatever the fun stat was, and

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Speaker 3: he just went, if there's coconut trees, I could die.

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Speaker 5: Great example.

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Speaker 4: Now when I'm saying that that young man has anxiety,

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Speaker 4: but what we're saying is that if we've got a

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Speaker 4: predisposition mentally to be drawn towards those kinds of things

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Speaker 4: that can invoke anxiety inn and invoke an anxiety response.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so understanding what the problem is, then justin how

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Speaker 1: do we as parents recognize that in our children.

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Speaker 4: Let me give you a list. I've actually come prepared

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Speaker 4: today for the first time ever. I've got a list

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Speaker 4: of ten things. Now we could do a list of

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Speaker 4: twenty things or thirty things. There are so many ways

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Speaker 4: that anxiety shows up, but the ten most common that

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Speaker 4: I sort of scribbled down at these. If you're dealing

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Speaker 4: with school refusal, there's a reasonable argument that there could

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Speaker 4: be some anxiety. There could be any name of other

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Speaker 4: reasons as well, but certainly school refusal is one way

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Speaker 4: that anxiety shows up. Anger is a big one, because

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Speaker 4: kids don't know how to control their emotions, so they

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Speaker 4: just have these outbursts and it's not that they're actually angry,

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Speaker 4: it's that they're scared. Anger is a secondary emotion. It

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Speaker 4: comes from somewhere else, in this case, fear and anxiety.

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Speaker 4: You know that anxiety could be showing up if your

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Speaker 4: child says what if and you give them an answer

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Speaker 4: and say, yeah, but what if?

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Speaker 5: What if?

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Speaker 4: And no matter how logical you are and how many

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Speaker 4: answers you give them, they.

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Speaker 5: Keep saying what if, what if? What if?

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Speaker 4: That could be an indication that their brain is in

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Speaker 4: over protection mode. Tears, lots and lots of tears, and specifically,

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Speaker 4: I don't know, and you said, but what about this?

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Speaker 5: I don't know? And the kids just don't have an

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Speaker 5: answer for anything. They just don't know anything at all.

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Speaker 4: You know, when they can't walk, you know, when their

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Speaker 4: limbs are so sore, that's an indication that there could

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Speaker 4: be some anxiety. When they can't sleep, when they're jittery

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Speaker 4: and bouncy, when they've got to saw tummy, when they're

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Speaker 4: feeling sick, or when they're just super clingy they don't

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Speaker 4: want to let you go, especially if they're fifteen or sixteen,

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Speaker 4: but even when they're four or five, or six or seven.

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Speaker 4: These are ways that anxiety shows up. There are other ways,

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Speaker 4: of course, this is a short list, but it sort

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Speaker 4: of gives you an indication of how we might sit.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we've got the problem of anxiety, how to

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Speaker 1: recognize it. We've got a few clues there. So if

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Speaker 1: we start to recognize some of these things and we

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Speaker 1: actually think maybe our child is anxious, what do we

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Speaker 1: do well?

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Speaker 4: We could spend two weeks talking about that on the show.

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Speaker 4: I don't think that we have time for time.

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Speaker 2: We've got time.

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Speaker 5: Okay, let's go.

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Speaker 2: Well, just or.

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Speaker 5: I reckon.

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Speaker 4: There's a couple of things that might be helpful. The

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Speaker 4: first is that we don't argue against it. We don't

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Speaker 4: try to tell each other they're being silly, to cut

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Speaker 4: it out, to stop it, that they're overreacting. That doesn't

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Speaker 4: tend to be helpful. Instead, a little bit of empathy

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Speaker 4: can go a really long way. And the best way

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Speaker 4: for me to describe that, rather than giving you words

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Speaker 4: or a technique, is to provide a metaphor. I may

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Speaker 4: have actually used this metaphor before when we've had conversations.

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Speaker 4: The metaphor of the balance beam seems really apt to me.

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Speaker 4: Your child's walking along the balance beam of life. It

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Speaker 4: looks like they might topple. Anxiety is they're starting to topple,

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Speaker 4: you know, And when you see them start to fall,

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Speaker 4: you've got a couple of options. You can watch them

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Speaker 4: land on the ground, which doesn't sound particularly kind, or

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Speaker 4: you can jump up and give them a great big

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Speaker 4: hug and carry them across the balance beam yourself and say.

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Speaker 5: Look, you made it.

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Speaker 4: Everything's okay, it's all done. But that's not necessarily helpful either,

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Speaker 4: because our kids have actually got to walk across that ball.

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Speaker 5: It's been themselves. That's what life is all about.

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Speaker 4: I think that it's much more helpful if we recognize

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Speaker 4: that they're starting to feel anxious, they're starting to feel worried,

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Speaker 4: and empathy and encouragement look like this. We reach up

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Speaker 4: and metaphorically put a hand on their leg while they're

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Speaker 4: up there on that beam, and we say, I can

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Speaker 4: see you starting to tip, but I've got you.

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Speaker 5: I'm here.

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Speaker 4: I know that you're a little bit nervous. I know

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Speaker 4: you're a little bit worried about this. I know it's

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Speaker 4: causing you a little bit of stress. But I'm right

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Speaker 4: here with you. How can I help? So what we're

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Speaker 4: doing is We're saying, I get it, I know it's

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Speaker 4: hard for you, and I'm right beside you. But we're

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Speaker 4: also saying very clearly, while I'm not going to let

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Speaker 4: you fall, I will not carry you because you've got

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Speaker 4: to walk across this beam yourself. We're setting a really

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Speaker 4: clear boundary saying I've got all the empathy in the world.

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Speaker 5: Now I want to encourage you.

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Speaker 4: And so we say I'm going to take my hand

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Speaker 4: off now and I want you to take the next step.

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Speaker 5: I know you can do this. Empathy and encouragement.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good because I think sometimes it's good to

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Speaker 1: remember that whole idea of saying to our children, I

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Speaker 1: can't do this for you. You have got to be

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Speaker 1: the one to do this, but what can I do

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Speaker 1: to help is a really good, safe approach. I think

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Speaker 1: about it, even just in relation to our children. One

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Speaker 1: of our sons had an operation recently and he did

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Speaker 1: really well. He wasn't super anxious about it. But I

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Speaker 1: found myself getting that way. But that became a good

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Speaker 1: question to ask myself, is what do I need to

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Speaker 1: help myself through this? As an adult, I can ask that,

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Speaker 1: but as a child, we don't think too, so we

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Speaker 1: as the parent need to kind of provide that question.

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Speaker 4: Right, So empathy and encouragement kind of goes, I see

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Speaker 4: how hard this is for you, and I'm here. That's

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Speaker 4: the empathy part, and then the encouragement part is how

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Speaker 4: can I help? And if they say I want you

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Speaker 4: to do it for me, you say, I can't lay

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Speaker 4: on the operating table for you. I wish I could,

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Speaker 4: but I can't do that.

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Speaker 5: But I'm right here. What else can I do? How

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Speaker 5: can I help?

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Speaker 4: The second thing that I was going to suggest is breathing.

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Speaker 5: There's power and breath. There's power in you know, taking

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Speaker 5: good deep breath.

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Speaker 4: There's all sorts of apps, there's websites, there's instructions all

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Speaker 4: over the internet. I'm not going to go Different breathing

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Speaker 4: techniques work for different ways for different people. But I reckon,

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Speaker 4: as a parent, if you've got a child who feels anxiety,

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Speaker 4: it's worth investing half an hour on the internet to

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Speaker 4: find the right one for you and for your child

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Speaker 4: and give it a go. It's remarkable how breathing and

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Speaker 4: mindfulness can reduce anxiety and restore much more effective thinking.

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Speaker 3: I know, hearing what you say. It always resonates with me,

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Speaker 3: and I know how powerful it is. But what you've

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Speaker 3: got is a responsive peace and a responsive calm and

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Speaker 3: control from the parent. Usually when we see these symptoms

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Speaker 3: of anxieties, they can come up in moments where we're

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Speaker 3: not feeling that right, and so our response to those

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Speaker 3: symptoms of anxiety is to yell, to get frustrated, to

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Speaker 3: force them through. And then what we feel afterwards when

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Speaker 3: we realize we've done it wrong is a whole lot

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Speaker 3: of guilt and shame as a parent that that's how

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Speaker 3: we responded. But I mean, is it just as simple

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Speaker 3: as Okay, I know how I should respond. So I'm

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Speaker 3: going to keep working on preparing myself because you don't

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Speaker 3: always predict when they're going to come out.

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Speaker 5: No, that's right.

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Speaker 4: And the most common thing that I hear from parents

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Speaker 4: when their child's going through some sort of anxiety moment

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Speaker 4: is would you.

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Speaker 5: Just calm down, Calm down, calm down, calm down.

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Speaker 4: And what child has ever looked at their parent in

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Speaker 4: that moment and said, right, good reminder.

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Speaker 5: Three deep breaths and I'll be fine.

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Speaker 2: Don't be silly.

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Speaker 3: You're right.

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Speaker 5: They don't do that at all.

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Speaker 4: You know, I get this question all the time. People say,

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Speaker 4: justin you always calm. The answer is no, not always,

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Speaker 4: but most of the time. And the reason that I

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Speaker 4: am is I've practiced, and every time I've got it wrong,

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Speaker 4: I've gone, hmm, Okay, that was that moment that I

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Speaker 4: got wrong. Next time, how am I going to respond?

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Speaker 4: And every time you get it right, you're like, oh,

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Speaker 4: nailed it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels great, it feels.

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Speaker 4: Amazing, and it feels so good that you can sort

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Speaker 4: of say, well, if I can do it once, I

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Speaker 4: can do it again. And I'm sure that anybody listening

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Speaker 4: to this right now knows that in their child's anxious moment,

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Speaker 4: they've completely blown it, but they've also got it absolutely

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Speaker 4: right at different times. We concentrate on the times we

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Speaker 4: got it right. Forget the steps, because you're.

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Speaker 5: Going to forget them anyway.

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Speaker 4: Just be the kind of person who is kind and

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Speaker 4: responsive and encouraging.

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Speaker 5: That's all. That's all you need to do.

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Speaker 3: I had a moment recently where Susie had a couple

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Speaker 3: of days, you know, with Royden in hospital, and I

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Speaker 3: was taking care of two children by myself, and they

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Speaker 3: were beautiful with each other, and they were so beautiful

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Speaker 3: with me and they did everything they were asked first

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Speaker 3: time like this was this was unbelievable. And so the night,

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Speaker 3: the first night with them and the next morning the school,

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Speaker 3: there was just so much calm and peace because they

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Speaker 3: were just so incredible, and they joked about it and times.

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Speaker 2: And said we've been like the best ever, like we've

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Speaker 2: never been that good for Dad and I.

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Speaker 3: During the day, I thought, I don't want my calm

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Speaker 3: to be down to how well behaved they are as kids.

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Speaker 2: I should have more control than that. So then the

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Speaker 2: next afternoon and the next morning, when they weren't quite

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Speaker 2: as responsive, I was pre planned in those spaces to go,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be calm no matter what they do.

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Speaker 3: This is who I want to be.

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Speaker 2: And it was hard.

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Speaker 3: There was one point where I literally I almost got

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Speaker 3: mid sort of a little sort of yell reaction, and

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Speaker 3: I caught myself and turned it into that, haha, I'm

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Speaker 3: just joking that I'm getting worked out, boys, But it

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Speaker 3: was It took me being the pre thought of who

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Speaker 3: I wanted to be as a dad before those moments

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Speaker 3: came that enabled me to do that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so hard to do, but the more you practice it,

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Speaker 4: the easier, it gets great story.

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Speaker 5: Love hearing you share that.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Justin Wilson is our guest.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much. This is a really important conversation,

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Speaker 3: one that's very significant to have, and thank you for navigating.

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Speaker 2: Us through it.

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Speaker 5: That's a pleasure. Thanks.

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Speaker 1: For more information on this and many other topics, head

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Speaker 1: to the Happy Families website. It's happy families dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au. If, of course, you're interested in chatting with

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Speaker 1: Justin yourself or having him speak at your event, find

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Speaker 1: out more details at Justinkilson Come