1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Already, and this is the Daily This is the Daily 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: ohs oh, now it makes sense. 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Friday, 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 2: the sixth of February. 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 3: I'm Zara Seidler. 6 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 4: I'm Billy fitz Simon's. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 2: Yesterday, the Washington Post announced it would cut a third 8 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 2: of its workforce in one of the most significant restructures 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: in the newspaper's history. The cuts will eliminate entire departments, 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: including sports and book coverage, and drastically reduced international reporting. Today, Billy, 11 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 2: we are peeling back that fourth wall and unpacking what's happened, 12 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 2: why one of. 13 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 3: The US's most storied newspapers. 14 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: Is in this position, what it means more generally for journalism, Zia. 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: Whenever there's a big media story like this, we always 16 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: have a conversation about whether the audience will care, because 17 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: obviously we care, because deeply entire life is working in 18 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: the media, and we here about the future of journalism, 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: not just in Australia but worldwide. And so we're always 20 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: interested in does the audience actually care? And I think 21 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: we should tell them why they should care in this podcast. 22 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 2: And so I'm going to say they can make their 23 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 2: own deduction at the if we've done a good enough 24 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: job and make you care. 25 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: But so I think we go through what happened with 26 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: Washington Post, and then I also think it's an interesting 27 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: discussion to think about how the Daily oz is thinking 28 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: about the future of journalism. 29 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 3: I love it. 30 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: First, let's get to the Washington Post for anyone who's 31 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: maybe not super familiar with it, Do you want to 32 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: just go through what the Washington Post is known for. 33 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I mean it's known for its journalism in 34 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: the first instance. So it's a very old media company. 35 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: No TDA vibes there. It was established in eighteen seventy seven, 36 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: and it's become one of the most influential newspapers in 37 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: the world. Its most famous reporting is probably Watergate. So 38 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: that was the scandal that Washington Posts reporters uncovered about 39 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: a break in at the Democratic National headquarters. It eventually 40 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 2: led to the resignation of US President Richard Nixon. 41 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 3: Huge story, one of you know. 42 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 2: The biggest example of the type of journalism that the 43 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 2: Washington Post has traditionally done. The paper was owned by 44 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: the same family for four generations, so it really was 45 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: this like family owned dynasty I'd. 46 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 3: Say, there's a very good movie about it. You haven't 47 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 3: watched it, I. 48 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 4: Asked, I have not watched, and judged you greatly honestly. 49 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, so watch The Post with Meryl Street. Great movie. 50 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: But it was eventually sold to Jeff Bezos, who I'm 51 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 2: sure a lot of our listeners are familiar with. He's 52 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: the Amazon founder, he's a billionaire. He bought The Washington 53 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: Post for two hundred and fifty million US dollars in 54 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, which is actually a lot earlier than I 55 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 2: thought it was. For some reason, it feels like a 56 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: fairly recent thing. But I was at school, so it 57 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 2: wasn't recent. And he has owned and run that since 58 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: that time. 59 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: And why did he want to buy the Washington Post. 60 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 61 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 2: Look, there's a lot of interviews that have been done 62 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: with Bezos to try and get to the bottom of this. 63 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: I'd say the clearest explanation that's been given is that 64 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: The Washington Post was in a fair bit of financial 65 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 2: ruin before it was sold, and it was looking for 66 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 2: somebody to turn that around, and Jeff Bezos was approached 67 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: to somebody who, given his experience obviously creating Amazon and 68 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: everything else, that he's done could potentially have turned that around. 69 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: In the interviews I've watched, he said, like, I wasn't 70 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: looking to buy a media company. They approached me, and 71 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: I thought that I could do something. He was optimistic 72 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 2: about that. He also has identified the impact on democracy 73 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: that having a media company that is sustainable and flourishing, 74 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 2: that that can have a really positive impact for society. 75 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: So those are the kind of reasons that he cited. 76 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: And so then, how has the paper performed since then? 77 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 3: Yeah? 78 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 4: I mean I feel like we kind of know the answer. 79 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: It's not going great right now. 80 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: But has it always gone badly? No, since the moment 81 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: he bought. 82 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 3: It, No, it hasn't. 83 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: So it actually thrived it first around the twenty sixteen 84 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen marks, So the first Trump presidency, the Washington 85 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 2: Post really was doing very well. It turned over a 86 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: profit in those years, and that for a media company 87 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 2: is significant. But more than that, I think its journalistic 88 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 2: integrity was really growing during that time. So that's when 89 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 2: it came up with the motto democracy dies in darkness. 90 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: That's I really like the alliteration of that. 91 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I hadn't. 92 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure everyone's thought about that except me, 93 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: Yes it does, and that SIT's under the Washington Post. 94 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 3: What do you call that name? Every day? Both in 95 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 3: the print and the online. 96 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: So that slogan has really reinvigorated its editorial integrity. And 97 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: during the time of the Trump presidency there was a 98 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: lot of pressure on the Washington Post by the Trump administration. 99 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: But during that presidency, Bezov really backed the Post's editorial 100 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: coverage and they went, I would say, quite hard on 101 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 2: the Trump administration at that time. 102 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: Okay, so it was going really well and then clearly 103 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: at some point that stopped. Yeah, what was the point 104 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: in which it started going in a different direction. 105 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, I think what a lot of US outlets 106 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: found was that after the Trump presidency, or let's take 107 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 2: it back one step. During the Trump presidency, a lot 108 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: of outlets had a lot of eyeballs. For the first time, 109 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: there were people who were hungry for this very different 110 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 2: type of president who was engaging with the media in 111 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 2: a very different way. And I remember back then like 112 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 2: you just wanted to read everything there was to read 113 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: because it was so new to usault and media really 114 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 2: flourished as a result of that. Then when Trump left, 115 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 2: the Oval offers news media really felt that. 116 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: But then we had the pandemic, Yes, and that was 117 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: the art of official spike. Yes, but people again were 118 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: wanting to read every and that was also it sounds 119 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: weird to say, but that was really good good for 120 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: news and newsrooms and successive newsrooms including the Delios. 121 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 3: It was. Yeah. 122 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: I mean it's a weird thing to say or to 123 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: acknowledge because it was such a dark time for so 124 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: many people, but for the tech industry yeah, and then 125 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: also for newsrooms it was a positive I guess artificial spike. 126 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: The thing that we speak about that a lot of 127 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 2: traditional newsrooms say if it bleeds at leads, so really 128 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 2: dark stories, really bad stories they tend to do. I 129 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 2: want to say, well in inverted comments, you can't see 130 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: me doing that because this is a podcast, but they 131 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 2: do well. And COVID is a time where you're right, like, 132 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: it was such a dark time for everybody, but there 133 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 2: was this hunger for news, this hunger for information, and 134 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: people really turn to news. 135 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 1: And just to say, the Delios tries to actively go 136 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,679 Speaker 1: against that well known idea and media, if it bleeds 137 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: it leads, because that doesn't create a very positive newsroom 138 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: or a very positive publication. 139 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: No, which is why we have a good news that 140 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 2: are which you can subscribe to that goes out on 141 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: a Sunday. 142 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 4: But back to the Post. 143 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,119 Speaker 1: Yes, so after the pandemic and after Trump has gone 144 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: what happens. 145 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: It goes downhill financially pretty quickly, and so in twenty 146 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 2: twenty three it's probably the first key time that we 147 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: understand that it's not going well. At that point, there 148 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 2: are voluntary buyouts which are offered to staff. So that's 149 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: basically you can choose to leave and you get a 150 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 2: financial incentive to leave, and that was to avoid mass layoffs. 151 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: And then from there it never really improves. And it's 152 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: then in twenty twenty four and onwards that these kind 153 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: of ideological tensions also start to emerge. 154 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: What do you mean by ideological tensions? 155 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: I actually think we might have done a podcast on this. 156 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: But in twenty two, in October, the Washington Post announced 157 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 2: it wasn't endorsing a candidate for the presidential election. 158 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 4: Yes, we did talk about it, yeah. 159 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 2: And so it was announced that they weren't going to 160 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: endorse anyone. It was very widely known that it was 161 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 2: meant to be that it was written up to be 162 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: Kamala Harris, and that it got pulled at the last minute, 163 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: and then a decision was made that for the first 164 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 2: time in the Post's history, they weren't endorsing a candidate. 165 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: Critics of Jeff Bezos said that that was a capitulation 166 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: to Donald Trump by Jeff Bezos, who has a relationship 167 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: with the president. But it also then from a newsroom 168 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 2: point of view, led to a lot of resignations and 169 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: a lot of unrest about what that relationship between the 170 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 2: billionaire founder and the president was looking like. And then 171 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 2: in February last year, Bezos announced that the paper's opinion 172 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 2: section would be restructured and I'm reading here to focus 173 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 2: only on personal liberties and free markets, and he said 174 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 2: that it would exclude opposing viewpoints to those two ideas. 175 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 2: And so opinion pages have long been a place where 176 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 2: you can publish all sorts of opinions of all sorts 177 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 2: of topics, but they were really, i'd say streamlined to 178 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 2: just be about these two things. And the Post decided 179 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: they were no longer publishing differing opinions outside of those 180 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 2: two ideas. 181 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: So those two ideas are personal liberties and free markets. 182 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 4: Let me uncode that, and do you want to uncode that? 183 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 2: People or critics of that decision said that was a 184 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 2: decision that they wouldn't publish left leaning or progressive opinion 185 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: pieces as they typically had. 186 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 3: In the past. 187 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: Okay, we are going to talk about what actually happened yesterday, 188 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: which is why we are talking about it today. But first, 189 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: here is a quick message from today's sponsor. Okay, Zara, 190 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: So let's move to what happened yesterday. There were mass layoffs. 191 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: This was widely speculated for a number of months now 192 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: that it would happen. It finally did happen, but I 193 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: think it was even more layoffs than most were expecting. 194 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. 195 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 2: So we had a third of the Washington Post News 196 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 2: laid off in this latest cut. That's more than three 197 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 2: hundred people, and it was from across the business. So 198 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 2: what we do know, and at the time of recording, 199 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: we haven't actually had a formal statement from the Post 200 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 2: or from Jeff Bezos, so we are relying on a 201 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: lot of internal sources leaking what was said. What we 202 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 2: do know is that the entire sports section of the 203 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: Washington Post was shut down, and we knew that was coming, 204 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: or we thought that was coming because the team that 205 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: was being sent to the Winter Olympics got told a 206 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: few weeks ago that they weren't going anymore, so that 207 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 2: was expected. The book's section has been completely closed. The 208 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 2: daily podcast has ended. 209 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 4: Oh I didn't realize that. 210 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: Yep, done, it's called post reports. It's no longer. International 211 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 2: teams have been drastically cut. So paper's entire Middle East 212 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 2: desk has been let go. Obviously, we know there's a 213 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: lot of news from that region right now, so I 214 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 2: thought that was a particularly interesting decision. The Ukraine bureau chief, 215 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: who was in a war zone at the time, was 216 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 2: let go as well. The Metro team, which covers local news, 217 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 2: was reduced, and interestingly, the newsroom's Amazon reporter was let go. 218 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 4: Of Wow, yeah, that isn't interesting. 219 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 3: I just saw that Twitter. Yeah. 220 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 2: She then published quite a lengthy statement about what she 221 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 2: believed that meant about the paper's editorial independence. 222 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: I didn't even know that they had a specific reporter 223 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: just for Amazon. 224 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: So that that makes you feel doesn't that make you realize? Sorry, 225 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 2: how small our newsrooms? Yes we have journalists to cover 226 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: every single topic. 227 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, including us. 228 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 3: One y one company being your entire beat is wow. 229 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: And so what reason did they give for these layoffs? 230 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 3: Again, all we can go off is reporting. 231 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 2: But according to NPR, the paper said that it needed 232 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: a strategic reset in the era of artificial intelligence, and 233 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: it also said that platforms like Google, which once helped 234 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,719 Speaker 2: the Post thrive, are in serious decline. And I want 235 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 2: to just unpack that for a second, because this might 236 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 2: be a really nerdy thing that most people don't care about, 237 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: but indulge me. 238 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 4: No, we love nerdy things. 239 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 3: Okay, excellent. 240 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 2: So typically in the past, if you had a question, 241 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: say about rising interest rates, you would type into Google 242 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 2: what are interest rates? Or what is the cash rate? 243 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 2: You would then have options about what website you could 244 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 2: click on, whether that be the Daly Ods or whether 245 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 2: that be the Washington Post or whatever it is. Nowadays, 246 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: Google search has an aioverview, and what that has meant 247 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 2: is that most people are no longer going past that 248 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: aioverview to the actual website. So news outlets that rely 249 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 2: on click traffic, like the Washington Posts and other legacy 250 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: media outlets have seen something like an eighty to ninety 251 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 2: percent drop off of traffic, and that is killing a 252 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 2: lot of newsrooms and That is one of the reasons 253 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 2: that they cited as to why they needed to lay 254 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 2: off so many people. 255 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: Can I say something about how the dallyios is thinking 256 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: about that? So before Google revealed this new AI overview, 257 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: we had a whole website strategy that we spent a 258 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: lot of time working and then literally within a month 259 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: or two of us launching that new website, Google published 260 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: this new AI overview and we thought, huh, well, there 261 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,319 Speaker 1: goes out strategy. 262 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 2: No, I mean, it's so interesting and you've had to pivot. Yeah, 263 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 2: it shows how nimble and agile you need to be 264 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 2: to work in this industry or to run a company 265 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 2: in this industry, because it changes every day, and like 266 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 2: the way that we consume information changes. If you had 267 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,599 Speaker 2: told me two years ago that I wasn't going to 268 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: be clicking on websites because I'd be reading AI overviews, 269 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 2: but I told you were crazy. 270 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what it is. 271 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: And it is easier for us, as a small and 272 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 1: media company to very quickly make those changes to our strategy, 273 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: but for a company with thousands of employees, you can 274 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: understand why it is harder to keep up with the pace. 275 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 4: Of change in the landscape. 276 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: Hundred percent, And I guess just sticking on that and 277 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 1: how it is harder for larger media companies to keep 278 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: up with the pace. It does feel like we are 279 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 1: constantly talking about newsrooms shrinking. 280 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, what are your thoughts on that? 281 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: What do you think is the future of media? Just 282 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: a small question to end podcast. 283 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 2: So glad that it's Friday morning. What do I think 284 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 2: is the future of media? 285 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 4: Well? 286 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 2: I do think that the inability to adapt is the 287 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: biggest issue that is facing legacy publishers like that is 288 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 2: far and away the biggest issue I think for us. 289 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 2: There is huge opportunity in the fact that so many 290 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 2: people are now, as we said, looking at AI, that 291 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: there is a gap in the market for real, high 292 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 2: quality news and videos and explainers to really cut through 293 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 2: all of that just very computer esque writing. And I 294 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: think that's our opportunity. That we're not going to pretend 295 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 2: that people our age aren't getting those AI overviews or 296 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: aren't asking CHATCHYBT to explain the latest news story. What 297 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 2: we need to do is make sure that we continue 298 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: to add value you and that we have a connection 299 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: with our audience, and the journalists in our newsroom are 300 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 2: creators in and of themselves, and they connect with audiences 301 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 2: and at the end of the day, people connect with people, 302 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 2: and so as long as we can continue to deliver 303 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 2: that high quality and high value work, I think that 304 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 2: that ensures us against this sort of rise of AI. 305 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: And I guess the other part of that is that 306 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: a lot of newsrooms, bigger newsrooms, have always just relied 307 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 2: on advertising, and the Daily Os relies a lot on 308 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: advertising for our revenue. 309 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 3: For our revenue to bring money in. 310 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 2: But that is a huge risk and we identified very 311 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: early that that is not the way of the future. 312 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 2: That we need to have multiple sources, and that's what 313 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 2: we're trying to build out. How do we build a 314 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: really sustainable news media company can continue to grow and 315 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: employ young people as we see all of these other 316 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 2: newsrooms shrinking. 317 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: I would also point out that when we talk about 318 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 1: newsrooms shrinking, we're often talking about traditional newsrooms, and I 319 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: would actually say that around Australia and also so in 320 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: the US, new media is thriving. 321 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 4: There are so. 322 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: Many new new media companies and the landscape is diversifying, 323 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: and audiences are meeting new media companies and leaning towards 324 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: new media companies and they are growing. 325 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 2: And the cost of them doing business is so much 326 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 2: lower than a huge newsroom. Yes, and so we are 327 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: seeing more and more people break into that field, and 328 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: you know, XCNN anchors becoming journalists on TikTok like that is. 329 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: That is what's happening, and it's just important that those 330 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 2: principles of editorial integrity and trust are at the cornerstone 331 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: of all of that. 332 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: Yes, But I would say, just to end it on 333 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: a slightly positive note that I don't think it is 334 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: all negative, because I do think that audiences are still 335 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: extremely interested in journalism and. 336 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 3: Quality journals than ever. 337 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: Yes, and they are seeking out fact checked information. They're 338 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: just going to different places to get. 339 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: That, and we hope to be there a step of 340 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: the way. 341 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: Zara, thank you for explaining to that on our Lovely 342 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: Friday Morning, and thank you for listening to this episode 343 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: of The Daily Os. I feel like since we've spoken 344 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,239 Speaker 1: so much about The Daily Os, we should ask you 345 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: to follow if you are not already. If you are 346 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: listening on Spotify, you can press follow, if you are 347 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: listening on Apple, you can press follow, or if you're 348 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: listening on YouTube, you can click subscribe. That helps us 349 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: grow and helps independent media companies like us get to 350 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: new audiences. We'll be back this afternoon with your evening headlines, 351 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:36,719 Speaker 1: but until then, we hope you have a lovely day. 352 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Aarunda 353 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 354 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 355 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: Gattigol people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 356 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 357 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.