WEBVTT - Conversations 1 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:06.480 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:12.000 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline I'm 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:19.160 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen, or visit them at 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.320 lifeline dot org dot AU. 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:33.800 Good morning, everyone, Welcome to the Truth About Amy podcast Conversations. 0:00:33.880 --> 0:00:37.519 I am Alison Sandy, the executive producer of the podcast, 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:40.519 and I'm joined by Liam Bartlett, who you all know 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:44.199 in Western Australia, and also Tim Clark. 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:48.080 Yeah, thanks very much, Alison, and great to be here. Tim, 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.120 legal affairs editor at The West Australian of course s 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.239 WM and a man who's done so much work on 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:57.360 this podcast. We're thirteen weeks in now, Tim, what are 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:58.000 you making of it? 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:02.080 Well, firstly, Liam, sorry, I'm not either Robbie Williams or 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:08.000 James Packer, so apologies for that. Your level is up 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.800 here Mine is sort of slightly underneath that, but you know, 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.680 all joking aside. It's that quality of journalism that's brought 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:18.120 us here today with the podcast and the interest that 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:23.880 it's been gathering over the weeks, which is what we 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:29.120 can see from the level of reaction it's getting both 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:33.680 from the listeners and from those that you've been approaching 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:38.880 to interview as the podcast has gone on. There's two 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:42.600 things that's struck me really, and it was the one 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.400 thing that struck me when I first met Anna outside 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:48.120 the first day of the inquest all those years ago. 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:53.040 Is her strength and the strength of the Wensley and 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:58.440 Davely families for refusing to give up really and refusing 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:03.960 to bow down to what is obviously being pressure put 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:07.680 on them from various quarters. And then opposite that strength 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:10.560 is basically the weakness of the authorities that have dealt 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:15.440 with this case for ten years now, starting obviously with 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.720 the with the detectives that first turned up at the scene, 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:27.800 but then the rolling sort of denials and obscation. 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:31.480 And yeah, complete intransigence, isn't that That's a good word. 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:33.519 That's a good word. You really hit the nail on 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.120 the head there. I think that the contradiction pointing out 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:39.359 that contradiction, and it is a huge golf, isn't it 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:45.240 between what Anna Davey Amy's aren't and extended family and 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:49.880 Nancy herm and especially Nancy what they have done and 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.160 what they continue to go through, but what the way 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:57.639 they have sort of marshaled their forces, albeit very small, 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:01.840 you know, the virtually powerless in that sense, But what 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.160 power they have in terms of talking to people like 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.720 us and Allison will back me up on this, and 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:12.000 going to authorities and doing whatever they can whenever they can, 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:16.639 compared to people in those positions of power. I think 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:18.440 that's one of the things that's really struck me about this. 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:22.480 I'm and Tim, you know where I'm coming from here, 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.679 because I've spent a long time here in Western Australia. 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:30.480 Among those authorities, you've spent more, in fact, you've had 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.760 a deeper dive around that judicial system in your work 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.400 with through the courts. Yeah, that's probably WA Police, you know, 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.120 the Attorney General's Office, you know, people who really are 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:46.840 the decision makers. And I'm still I'm still after all 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:51.440 these years, I'm amazed at the complete it's almost a 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:54.360 lack of care, you know, It's almost it's almost that's 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:56.600 the way it comes across. I might be being a 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.400 bit unfair, but it's it almost comes across as a 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:04.720 sort of personalized get stuffed. Yeah, that's that's in the 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.600 in the Ossie vernacular. That's the way it seems like, 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:11.920 what why can't somebody somewhere please just put their hand 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:13.320 up and say, look, you know what, we're going to 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:13.720 fix this. 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.800 And there seems to be to me there's a there's 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:21.760 a trademark West Australian style of this type of case, right, 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:24.920 and you can go through them, going back, you know, 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.279 to the button and Beamish ones, and it starts with 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:32.600 a colonel like a core belief that the authority has 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:39.040 about a certain case and a refusal then to admit 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:43.480 or even countenance that that colonel at the start might 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:44.080 have been wrong. 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:47.160 Spot on. Once the blinkers go on, that's it. Yeah. 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:52.839 And what disappointed me this week, particularly reading the letter 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.719 that our Attorney General, John Quigley had sent to the 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:01.239 Wensley family and Anadavian particular are attorney General was involved 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.719 in one of those cases on the other side, which 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:09.560 involved a man, a vulnerable man, convicted of a murder 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:14.359 that he didn't commit. And it took journalistic skills like 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.520 yours and Allison's have been employed in the last year 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:23.599 or more to uncover that wrong. And then John Quickley, 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:27.440 when he was in opposition, joined that and fought so 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:32.960 hard to get that man released and he was eventually released. Now, John's, 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.360 you know, coming towards the end of his political career, 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:38.760 a career I think that's had got a lot to 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:40.560 say for it. Actually, I mean, he's been a very 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:44.640 reforming attorney general. He's appointed so many women to the bench, 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:48.479 which is you know, evened up that you know, long 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:53.360 held imbalance. But on this case, for whatever reason, he's 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.080 sticking to this dogma that I can't send it to 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:01.080 the DPP and the opposition is off the complete opposite 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:03.800 view that he can if he wants to, of course 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:07.039 he can. And that's just one piece of the puzzle, 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.560 you know, of a you know, a whole line of 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:14.080 refusals of just to listen to an opposing view or 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.040 at least countenance that, well, this is the like, this 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:21.040 is wrong. This is just clearly wrong on all facts. 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:26.640 And you know the physical evidence, the gun, Amy's hand, 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:31.040 you know, the crime scene, what the detectives did, like 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:35.000 all those little bits along the way or as you say, 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.440 your word, intransitident, just just a refusal to move. 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:41.360 Well, the case you mentioned, let's stay on quickly for 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:43.919 a moment, Allison. Let's let's talk about the role of 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.240 the Attorney General, because This fascinates me, the point that 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:51.719 Tim's just raised about how how paralyzed he seems to be, 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.160 and especially given his background as as really somebody who 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.039 who does stand up, who has stood up in the past. 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.680 I mean, this guy remember years ago, Tim was the 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:06.560 lawyer for the police union. He was bulldog like in 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:09.320 his approach and on the case you mentioned the Andrew 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:13.080 Mallard case. It ended up getting Andrew Mallard, well a clearance. 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.400 I mean the start of that investigation, there was timing. 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.840 I mean, it ended up that there was a palm 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.520 print that actually, you know they all missed and you know, 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:24.720 and pointed to the actual killer. 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:26.760 Well, one single palm print, you know, that was the 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:28.920 as you say, that was the spark that ignited the 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.320 whole thing. There's a lot more. There's so many sparks 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.840 in this case. It's a raging bushfire. Yeah, I mean, 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:36.760 you know you have to what do we have to 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:40.840 do to turn the bloke's eyes towards the wrongfulness of 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:42.960 some of this stuff? I mean, it just makes me, 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.240 It makes me amazed, And I agree with your assessment 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.440 to a certain point. I think his career has been 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.040 marked by some decent stuff. Although I would argue that 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:55.559 the strength of that career came to a screeching halt, 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:59.440 and for the benefit of our recent states listeners and others, 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:05.360 screeching halt during COVID when Clive Palmer, the Ossie billionaire, 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.080 took out a case against the WA government, and on 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:11.840 the front page of our newspaper Tim there were text 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:15.240 messages from John Quigley, the Attorney General, to the Premier, 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.280 Mark McGowan, the then Premier, which were of a of 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:22.480 a shall we say John quickly describing his sex life 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.560 and other such things quite personally embarrassing. And I think 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:30.080 since then he's been completely newted in his effectiveness. He's 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.080 been turned into some sort of you know, Egyptian Eunich 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.560 and in this case, he in this case he just 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:38.720 refuses to do anything. And he can do a lot 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:40.760 of things. He can do a lot of things. But 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:44.160 what about the police commissioner. What do you think about 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:47.120 the commissioner's role in all this and the sort of 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.640 inaction Allison. And the reason I ask you that question 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.360 is because there's no reason for cole Blanche not to 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.000 do something. It's not as if he was commissioner at 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:59.640 the time. When when when this this appalling level of 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.360 invest mistigation. If I can even use that word, it 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.600 was so bad on the night Amy died took place. 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:08.880 Cole Blanche wasn't the commission he can he can rightly 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.600 say put up his hand and say, listen, that was terrible. 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.640 Things were done that were wrong, But I wasn't in charge. 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:16.960 Then I am now, and this is what's going to happen. 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:17.720 We're going to fix it. 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:20.840 Do you think maybe it was because he signed that 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:24.520 letter of regret? Maybe? I mean, look, it's an error, 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:28.400 it's an unfortunate error, but we can move beyond that, right. 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.360 I mean that's with everything, right, everything's been pretty much 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.600 an error all this way. So it's a case of 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:38.840 just saying, yep, we're owning it. We're moving on, we're 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.600 moving forward. But I think with cole Blanche, when I 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:47.920 look at the Foy correspondence we got, it makes me 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:51.959 think that maybe that kind of attitude goes all the 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:52.640 way to the top. 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:57.080 Well yeah, it's a failure of leadership. But that is leadership, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.120 isn't it Just putting your hand up and saying, listen, guys, 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:01.080 we got a wrong. You don't have to say I 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.200 got it wrong. It wasn't, as I say again, it 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.040 wasn't cole Blanche in charge at the time. But he's 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:09.079 the leader now, and isn't that what leadership, Good leadership 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.200 is all about, saying listen, we're just going to right 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:14.280 these wrongs. It doesn't cost us anything. In fact, we 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:18.920 win more friends. We win more friends doing it the 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:23.280 proper way now by acknowledging that things weren't quite right. 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:24.720 But you know what, we're not going to put up 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.520 with anything else. Now, let's let's absolutely put this on 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:29.400 the road to redemption. 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.079 Do you think he would have been involved in signing 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:36.760 off on that on the new team in e Commas 0:10:36.800 --> 0:10:40.760 it's been that's been put in place in w police 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:45.680 to investigate things that they say have come from crime stoppers. 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:50.080 I think so yeah, In which case, why wouldn't he 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:54.160 then publicly say, you know, come up to the public, 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.920 come on this podcast and say, look, I've done that 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.800 because A, I want to make sure that everything's done 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:04.040 right from now on. B there are valuable tipbits coming 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:07.560 forward that we think the need investigating properly and see 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.400 by association. You know, obviously, what you've done or what 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:13.440 the podcast has shown is that we made mistakes in 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.560 the past. I mean, as you say, Liam, leadership is 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.720 not just about bluff and bluster. It's all about also 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:23.320 about admitting mistakes and saying, you know, putting your hand 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:25.000 up and say, well, all we can do now is 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:27.319 try and make sure we do it right from here 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.960 on in. But for whatever reason he's been advised, you know, 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.280 he can't say anything publicly. He can just give us 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:35.840 the I think you called it in the email to me, 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:39.439 quite a vanilla or bay statement that they said confirming 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.800 that team had been put in place, and then you 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:47.160 know nothing more, which is yeah, again disappointing to me 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:49.600 and a little a little bit a little bit weak. 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.880 So I'll put it back on you too. What do 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.080 you feel like other vital bits of new information that 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:58.720 you've managed to flash out over the year in a 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:02.840 bit that you've been that you've been looking back into 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:03.640 Amy's case. 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:05.680 For me, the most recent one, let's start with the 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:10.040 most recent, and that was the evidence. I'll call it evidence. 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:16.360 It's first person recount from the lady who rang crime 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:22.680 stoppers as a result of our original story and episode 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:27.560 one really and talked about Joshua Brydon. Now she's the 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:32.600 friend of Joshua Brighton's ex partner. Is that correct, Alison, 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.520 let me just get that right. She's the friends now. 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:41.000 To me, her first hand account as an ear witness 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:47.319 puts Joshua Brdon at the scene where let me put 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:51.400 it this way, it contradicts Joshua Brden's account completely as 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:55.480 we know, it completely contradicts it. I think that's significant. 0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:01.560 I think it's I think it's fascinating. It's completely fascinating. 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:05.880 And to me, you know, if I was the detective 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:07.680 working on the case, that would be my first port 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:10.680 of call. I'd be dragging him in for a for 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:14.400 a formal sit down interview to say, look, this is 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:19.720 completely at odds with every statement you've made or what 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.240 you have told any measure of authority from day one, 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.560 how do you explain it? And putting that story, putting 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.000 that narrative under a bit of pressure, that for me 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.280 is the most is the most amazing thing. That's a 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.240 place to start. But that's also probably the most recent Allison, 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:36.800 would that be fair? Yeah? 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:40.480 I think Joshua Brydon is the weak link in this 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.360 whole case, well, one of the weak links, I should say, 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:48.080 there's plenty, but I think that. And the timeline, right, 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.920 this is the one that we pointed out in episode twelve, 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:56.760 the timeline of where he talks about David Simmons putting 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:01.440 the kids and packing their clothes and toys in the car. Now, 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:05.840 that didn't happen until after Amy had the phone call 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:09.080 with her mother, which was about five o'clock, and Joshua 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.880 Bryden was supposed to be at least twelve minutes or 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.640 thirteen minutes gone by then, yes, and yet he recalled that. 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.880 So it's it just doesn't Can I just say something there? 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:22.280 Let me just jump in there. Tim does this strike 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.240 he was weird because when I look at that timeline, 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.880 I've been back over it as recently as last night, 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:31.680 just four or five times. Now, that's a timeline constructed, 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.800 not by us. That timeline's constructed by Major crime. So 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:42.200 even leave out this other woman's evidence to us, who's 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.480 only recently phoned in to crime stoppers, But I mean, 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:47.680 just looking at that, well, why didn't somebody in major 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:50.080 crime look at that in the same way? And so 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.040 you hang on a minute that that doesn't fit, That 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:53.360 really doesn't fit. 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.200 And that's you know, and that's not the only bit. 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.040 No, no, But but I'm just saying, you know that 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.200 that's a relatively recent when I say recent in the 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:04.760 overall chronology of major crime, putting that together to somebody 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:07.280 somewhere in a police uniform to look at that timeline 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.920 and say, guys, that's not really it's not really adding up. 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.520 And it's not just major crime. I mean, he gave 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.800 that same evidence to the coroner, so you know, sort 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.360 of the council assisting in the coroner or the coroner 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:24.080 herself could have could have gone away and did go 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:30.040 away for many many months to put together her inquest findings, 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.960 which were, you know, many dozens of pages. And then 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:37.480 there's you know, the other little things like David Simmons 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:43.080 supposedly firing a gun at a tree to get rid 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.760 of parrots while all this chaos is his life is 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:49.480 falling to pieces around him, and when that just makes 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:53.640 no logical sense to me. No, no, And he said 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.320 that various times he was questioned about it. He stuck 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.640 to that story. Why when your partner is in the 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:02.080 middle of leaving you, You've got kids in the car, 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.320 you've got people there, you've got lizard tank smashing, you've 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:09.120 got you know, a physical altercation, and then amid all this, 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:13.600 you supposedly fire a gun at a tree like that 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:17.440 just makes no sense. That's all logical sense, I mean, 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.280 you know. And so all right, you can take that 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.200 out of context and say, oh, well it's a little thing, 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.160 but it's not. 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.000 It not only makes no sense, but it also doesn't 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:30.280 fit for me time wise in terms of just a 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:35.040 basic action, like to do it in a comfortable way 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:40.040 and then and then for me to get to the 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.920 end of the timeline where they make the call from 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.880 the Serpentine roadhouse. Now, now, if anybody's been out there 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.600 and had a look at the sort of distance we're 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:53.640 talking about, Allison, you have and I have, you will 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:56.640 know that to get to that Serpentine roadhouse from that 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:00.360 little house up the road, it's only up the road, 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:04.240 but it's a little bit of a drive. And you 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:06.720 look at the timeline again put together by Major Crime, 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.560 that's a very tight turnaround. You have to be jumping 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.280 in that car to know that. Okay, in the car, 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:16.879 let's go. We have to get to that roadhouse make 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.479 that call to Triple zero. That's got to happen very quickly. 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.000 I'm telling you physically, that's got to happen very quickly. 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:25.399 And that just does not make sense to me. That 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:26.720 whole thing doesn't make sense. 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.960 And that's after Gareth has padded down Amy looking for 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.520 her phone, yep, and the whole argument about well, let's 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:39.040 go to the main house and David Simmons saying to Gareth, no, no, 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:39.840 that's not there. 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.200 There's a lot of things going on. Yep. There's a 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.119 lot of conversations going on. There's a lot of panic, 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.480 no matter what, no matter what, even if you take 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.960 the suicide angle, there's a lot of panic. There's shock that, 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.440 there's a lot of emotions. There's a lot happening there 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:59.240 in that incredibly compressed timeline, which again I'll say again 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.359 does not makes sense. And anybody, anybody who looks at that, 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.080 I defy anybody who looks at that who's gone past 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:09.879 fourth grade education to make it make sense. 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:23.040 And then you've got one of Amy's thoughts saying consistently 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.159 that she's seen one of these men bringing the bins 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:34.200 right now. She look this Obviously it's chaotic. There's there's guns, 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:37.680 there's dogs, there's people. Is like, you know, it's it's 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:43.040 getting dark. The emotion of all the things even a 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:48.600 young girl could mistakenly have seen, right, you know, it 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:50.520 could have been one person coming out with the house 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:55.280 when it wasn't fine. But to see a person dragging 0:18:55.280 --> 0:19:00.760 a bin all that way, that that strikes me as 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.080 a core memory, you know what I mean, Like a 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.920 memory that you couldn't reconstruct. Of all the things you 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.880 could reconstruct, why would you reconstruct a bin. 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:11.080 That's a great question. 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.040 I thought the same when I was going through Joshua 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:19.840 Bryden's first statement. He made a point of saying Amy 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.200 asked us to take out the bins. Like you're going 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:26.000 through this, you're going through all this stuff about what 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.720 happened to Amy. Amy's dead, and yet you make a 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.719 point in your statement to say we took out the bins. 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:36.840 It just didn't make sense to me that you would 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:37.520 put that in. 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:39.960 Why would you say that? Yeah, why would you say that? 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:42.000 Why would you say that? I mean, I don't only 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.280 talk about my wife telling me to put out the 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:45.320 bins of us in trouble. 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.359 I'm sure you never asked. I always remember. 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.399 So on that Tim, and I know the legalities around this. 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:57.439 The little girl's six years old when she says this, 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:02.200 so she can't be cross examined, be cross examly. But 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.040 so what so what I mean, why would a little 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:08.639 child make that sort of recollection up? You don't do it. 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:12.360 And I was amazed that the coroner actually didn't put 0:20:12.400 --> 0:20:14.280 more weight on that. Now the coroner can turn around 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:16.840 and say whatever she likes about well that child. You 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:18.240 know that child's not going to be able to be 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:20.919 cross examined on it. So what so what isn't that 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:26.119 sort of isn't that contemporaneous evidence more important in helping 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:30.320 the coroner form an opinion at the end of the process. 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.600 I mean, let's just look at the facts of the case. 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:36.240 And that's the same with the police. I mean that 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:38.679 helps them does and it helps them create the narrative 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:41.600 and put the story together and think something fishy there, mate. 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.919 And three things about that. One, the coroner's court is 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:49.560 not is not a criminal court. So Joshuah Briden could 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:53.040 have and I can't remember if you did, but there's 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:56.000 certainly the option that you can be you can get 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:58.040 a ladder of authority, you know, a latter of comfort 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:00.720 to say anything you say here can't using in a 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:05.760 criminal court, right, So there's that. So the coroner, any coroner, 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.600 can ask any question without compunction if they want to 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:13.800 be Okay, the daughter can't be called as a direct witness. 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:18.520 But whatever mister Briden or mister Price or mister Simmons 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:21.560 want to say about that, they had their own legal representation, 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:26.240 so they could be asked by their lawyer to counteract 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:29.440 anything that either the police lawyer or the councilor assistant 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:32.720 could have asked them. There that that's two things. And 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.320 see there's nothing to stop the police asking them about it, 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:40.040 but you know, and going back to it and you know, 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:44.240 convincing themselves, trying to convince themselves. But as you said, 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:48.000 there's so many there's so many strands in this case, 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:52.480 Liam and Allison just up in the air, just floating there, 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:56.320 just you know, you're trying to grip onto some sort 0:21:56.320 --> 0:22:01.320 of solidity about what happened, and the questions that have 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:03.480 been asked or not asked over the years have just 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:07.080 left them all sort of you know, you know, just 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.800 floating there, just trying to be tied together in some 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:14.440 sort of solid way, and you just can't because either 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:18.600 people haven't been asked or quite frankly, we think it 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:20.600 appears that people. 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:23.000 Have laid just a little bit of background on the 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:26.840 stuff that Naya put forward. This is Amy six year old. 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:32.080 So my understanding is that David Simmons only started talking 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:35.960 about shitting the gun after Naya said that she remembers 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:39.639 her dad cheating the dump, so then he brought that in. 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:43.439 But the other thing, the other massive piece of effort 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:47.840 evidence provided by Naya, which I still find astounding, was 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:52.600 completely ignored that and David Simmons going back to get 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:56.760 or trying to get Amy's phone and asking Larry Blampard 0:22:56.800 --> 0:22:59.560 and Larry Blampet saying no, that obviously as well, but 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:04.520 out also seeing her father, Well, David Simmons isn't her father, 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:07.280 but at the time she caught him, Daddy go back 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:11.359 into the room with that shotgun, the black gun with 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:16.560 the Scott. So she goes into detail as to this gun, right, 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:20.439 which is the It isn't the twenty two, it's the 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:22.400 other one that was found in the water. She said 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:26.240 she saw David Simmons put that gun in the wardrobe, 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:29.280 which is where it was found. It was where it 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:32.360 was found, and again he said he didn't go back 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:35.760 into that room, And initially and then at the inquest 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:37.359 he said he didn't remember. 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:43.960 Yeah, well it just another another thread. So reflections from 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:47.199 you two about the whole process. I mean, all right, 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:49.480 I'll start with you, Allison. What's it like being working 0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:52.119 with the great legend Leam Bartlett. 0:23:54.000 --> 0:23:56.560 Terrible on Monday? 0:23:56.880 --> 0:23:59.840 And you and you two have banged on about honesty 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:06.680 for three months, so I'm going to call you on it. 0:24:06.720 --> 0:24:08.760 But seriously, what's it been like? 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:11.600 Well, well, no, Tim, this is not my first rodeo 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:15.160 with Liam, so you know I was. I was going 0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:18.119 in there with eyes wide open where you did. Obviously 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:20.879 the lady vanishes and we spent all that time in Europe, 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:24.119 so and we'd already talked about Liam and I we 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:27.000 were already talking about his next podcast, which is a 0:24:27.000 --> 0:24:31.320 Cup of Concrete, which is you know, Liam giving you know, 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:35.320 his views, and anyone who's hung out with Liam you 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:39.240 never died wondering what Liam's thinking, you know. So it's 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:42.280 been it's been really good actually, and going to his 0:24:42.960 --> 0:24:46.320 his neck of the words, he's Nahboro, he's hood and 0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:49.280 then heading out a certain times. So that's a completely 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:52.159 different area from me. It's actually very beautiful. 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:53.840 In the area. It is I wasn't. 0:24:54.080 --> 0:24:56.359 I wasn't. You know. I suppose when you're going in 0:24:56.400 --> 0:24:59.119 there for such a negative thing, you expect it to 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:03.960 be horrible, right, but it's actually surprisingly beautiful and going 0:25:04.040 --> 0:25:07.200 to the house and meeting the different people. Yeah, So 0:25:07.400 --> 0:25:09.000 Liam and I did a lot of that. I got 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:15.400 him lost one day. I took a wrong turn. It 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:17.520 was all of a sudden. I think that's down that 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:20.800 road actually where David Simmons crashed the car with Amy. 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:22.320 I think that was the road. 0:25:22.359 --> 0:25:26.639 I actually it literally led me astray. 0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:32.040 But no, Liam is amazing, And I'm saying that. I'm 0:25:32.080 --> 0:25:34.919 saying that with all honesty because I just you know, 0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:38.280 everyone's got their You know that they've got it. You 0:25:38.359 --> 0:25:42.080 don't have to prerep or anything like that. What Lim's doing, 0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:44.840 it's going to be one hundred percent. So you just 0:25:44.880 --> 0:25:46.480 don't have to worry about limb. 0:25:46.520 --> 0:25:47.919 You just I worry about it. 0:25:50.280 --> 0:25:51.919 I need somebody to worry about me, all right. 0:25:52.000 --> 0:25:55.040 And so you've doped all the mean players? 0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:57.120 Yeah, yeah, what goes through. 0:25:56.920 --> 0:26:00.679 Your mind when you're about to walk, say to a 0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:03.719 Gareth Price and that that that footage on Spotlight that 0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:06.200 anyone hasn't seen each let's just go back and it's 0:26:06.240 --> 0:26:12.359 an extraordinary just interaction, all caught on camera. What goes 0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:15.160 through your mind when you're preparing to do a door 0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:15.920 knock like that. 0:26:16.080 --> 0:26:18.239 I think the biggest thing is you just don't want to. 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:21.560 You don't want to, you don't want them to walk away, 0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:26.000 you know. That's the biggest thing. It's the It's the availability, 0:26:26.280 --> 0:26:27.879 you know, because you've got so many things going on 0:26:27.920 --> 0:26:29.600 in your head that you want to ask. There are 0:26:29.640 --> 0:26:32.680 so many questions. In this case is just a classic example. 0:26:32.680 --> 0:26:35.240 I mean, there are so many different facets. We've only 0:26:35.320 --> 0:26:38.040 just touched on a few, you know, in the last 0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:40.959 half an hour, but there are so many things you 0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:43.800 and you want that time. That time is so precious 0:26:43.840 --> 0:26:46.040 to him, you know. And you know that because of 0:26:46.080 --> 0:26:49.880 the nature of these characters involved, and they're all they're 0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:51.480 all pretty much I've got to say, over the years, 0:26:51.480 --> 0:26:54.520 they're all pretty much the same type of character. At 0:26:54.520 --> 0:26:57.480 the end of the day, despite how tough and rough 0:26:57.480 --> 0:27:00.800 and you know, buff they might look, tendency is for 0:27:00.840 --> 0:27:05.280 them to turn and walk, run or hide. So that's 0:27:05.320 --> 0:27:09.360 the biggest thing. It's just the availability. I mean, Garet's 0:27:09.400 --> 0:27:14.200 an interesting example because he decided he just wanted to talk. 0:27:14.600 --> 0:27:18.439 I don't know whether that was some substance talking for 0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:21.280 him or what having. I haven't seen his evidence at 0:27:21.320 --> 0:27:24.320 the coroner's quest. Yeah, it was very much the same 0:27:24.480 --> 0:27:25.120 type of. 0:27:27.640 --> 0:27:32.480 Stream of consciousness type of narrative that did he once 0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:35.760 he opened his mouth, it seemed like he couldn't stop. 0:27:36.040 --> 0:27:40.200 But finding the use the same word, finding the little 0:27:40.240 --> 0:27:44.439 colonel's in there. Finding what was useful was the tricky 0:27:44.480 --> 0:27:46.200 bit there. And it was a little bit the same 0:27:46.240 --> 0:27:48.080 with the interview you did with him. I mean, you know, 0:27:48.119 --> 0:27:50.080 he went from you know, wanting you to leave to 0:27:50.119 --> 0:27:53.959 offering you a cup of coffee. But then you know, 0:27:54.040 --> 0:27:58.080 when you pressed him a little bit, you know, he 0:27:58.119 --> 0:28:01.120 didn't bully him or anything. You just ask firm but 0:28:01.240 --> 0:28:04.439 fair questions. The trauma of it all seemed to bubble 0:28:04.480 --> 0:28:07.480 to the surface. That's what That's what That's what hit me. 0:28:07.600 --> 0:28:09.760 Yeah, I think you'd spot on that there was a 0:28:09.800 --> 0:28:13.040 troubled soul there, There's no doubt about that. But it 0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:18.359 was a bit like hurting cats y. Yeah, he's clearly 0:28:18.400 --> 0:28:23.320 got things going on subconsciously under the surface, you know, 0:28:24.040 --> 0:28:27.160 more than he'd care to admit. I think, And I'm 0:28:27.160 --> 0:28:29.760 still not sure. I got the impression very clearly that 0:28:29.880 --> 0:28:33.879 he still wasn't talking freely, if I can put it 0:28:33.920 --> 0:28:34.240 that way. 0:28:34.400 --> 0:28:37.800 But also with David Simmons, though you know, that was 0:28:37.920 --> 0:28:41.680 obviously a totally different interview, how did you find that? 0:28:42.280 --> 0:28:46.400 Well, that again, unfortunately, that was there wasn't enough time 0:28:46.440 --> 0:28:49.200 and space there, you know, because he was preoccupied in 0:28:49.280 --> 0:28:53.560 going to court for his nth appearance over another matter. 0:28:54.000 --> 0:28:56.960 So he was preoccupied. And he doesn't like a camera. 0:28:57.200 --> 0:28:59.280 Not many people do, I've got to say. But he 0:28:59.840 --> 0:29:01.000 just didn't want to be there, did he. 0:29:01.240 --> 0:29:04.560 Yeah, that was apparent. And as you say, it's physical 0:29:04.600 --> 0:29:07.000 space as well. I mean so the third the third 0:29:07.040 --> 0:29:09.640 interview did literally on a doorstep, sort of through a 0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:15.440 door and then through Brighton's father. But yeah, look, having 0:29:15.640 --> 0:29:21.280 tried to interview people on those steps countless times, the 0:29:21.320 --> 0:29:24.760 sliding doors don't help you. The security guards can't help you. 0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:28.480 The only advantage of that is that there is only 0:29:28.480 --> 0:29:31.120 one way in and out of Perth Magistrates Call, and 0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:33.360 it's all glass frontage, so you could see them coming, 0:29:33.640 --> 0:29:36.240 but they can also see you waiting, so it can 0:29:36.600 --> 0:29:38.880 can turn into a bit of a cat and mouse stalemate. 0:29:39.480 --> 0:29:41.480 Burrow as we call them in the business, when they 0:29:41.600 --> 0:29:44.239 just wait at the cafe and hope the camera men 0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:46.640 will go away, which they sometimes do after four o'clock, 0:29:46.680 --> 0:29:53.160 you know, when shift changes and all that. But yeah, Simmons, Yeah, again, 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:56.760 just evasive. That's the way he comes across this way. 0:29:56.760 --> 0:29:59.480 He came across at the at the inquest so evasive 0:29:59.520 --> 0:30:01.080 that he didn't turn up for the first day. 0:30:01.240 --> 0:30:03.400 I can't believe that. I still can't believe. I still 0:30:03.400 --> 0:30:06.480 struggle with that. I also struggle with the lady who 0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:10.000 was with him at the court when we tried to 0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:13.040 talk to him on both those occasions within the space 0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:16.120 of what hour and a half two hours. How do 0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:20.320 you get people who hang around these other people without 0:30:20.600 --> 0:30:23.080 it and actually turn around to you when you're trying 0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:23.880 to ask a question. 0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:29.200 I think it is a combination of loyalty. You know, 0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:33.000 family loyalty goes a long way, particularly in Western Australia 0:30:33.040 --> 0:30:36.800 and particularly in certain parts of Western Australia, and definitely 0:30:36.840 --> 0:30:41.040 an indigenous families. You know that loyalty is beaked in 0:30:41.760 --> 0:30:45.120 to borrow a phrase from Justice League, albeit misguided layl 0:30:45.200 --> 0:30:49.200 sometimes yes sometimes or you can be and then there 0:30:49.320 --> 0:30:53.160 is we're going back to our original point, there's an 0:30:53.160 --> 0:30:58.600 intransigence that people don't want to believe that they've been wrong. 0:30:59.160 --> 0:31:02.600 And when you've when you've stuck by someone's side for 0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:05.600 so long, and then it starts to look like you 0:31:05.720 --> 0:31:11.240 might have been misguided, misled, whatever, it takes a long time. 0:31:11.320 --> 0:31:13.200 It can't take a long time to let go of 0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:17.040 that belief that that you'd hail for so long and 0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:21.320 it's being told or being presented with evidence that shows 0:31:23.080 --> 0:31:24.400 you might have back wrong horse here. 0:31:24.520 --> 0:31:26.480 Yeah, yeah, I expect. 0:31:25.960 --> 0:31:29.600 That from family, but I don't expect it from police. 0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:32.080 Well, police are a family and they do stick together. 0:31:32.240 --> 0:31:37.880 Particularly I meant in terms of David Simmons, like the 0:31:37.880 --> 0:31:40.280 bench weren't for example, when you didn't turn up that 0:31:40.360 --> 0:31:44.280 the police opposed the breat bench warrant. And when David 0:31:44.320 --> 0:31:47.959 Simmons did turn up, not to the same court, not 0:31:48.000 --> 0:31:50.680 to the actual court, but by video link, they didn't 0:31:50.680 --> 0:31:54.480 ask any questions of him. I mean, that's just phenomenal. 0:31:54.720 --> 0:31:57.080 That bothered me at the time. I just thought that 0:31:57.240 --> 0:32:03.520 was the warrant. I could I could sort of, I 0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:05.720 could sort of see because you know, if you go, 0:32:05.880 --> 0:32:07.720 if you know, if you're barge in, bag him up. 0:32:08.160 --> 0:32:10.120 You know, he spends the night in custody. Whatever is 0:32:10.120 --> 0:32:11.840 he Is he going to be any is he going 0:32:11.880 --> 0:32:13.440 to answer any questions? Is he going to be in 0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:16.040 any fit state? Too? You know, so I could sort 0:32:16.040 --> 0:32:19.120 of see that. But when they did get him there, Look, 0:32:19.120 --> 0:32:22.040 it wasn't a Bartlet interrogation, let me put it that way. 0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:25.040 There was there was questions that weren't asked. There were 0:32:25.120 --> 0:32:28.560 questions that were asked, you know, with answers sort of 0:32:28.560 --> 0:32:30.880 built into them. It was it was very it was 0:32:30.920 --> 0:32:35.080 a very strange last couple of days to that in quest. 0:32:35.280 --> 0:32:36.520 But why did they do that? Tim? 0:32:36.600 --> 0:32:40.000 I don't I couldn't. I can't. I couldn't work that out. 0:32:40.040 --> 0:32:42.120 I couldn't work that out them. I don't know. But 0:32:42.240 --> 0:32:46.120 what I do remember is Anna Davy just the you 0:32:46.160 --> 0:32:52.480 could just feel the frustration, you know, already built up 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:57.200 over seven odd years of trying to you know, advocate 0:32:57.920 --> 0:33:01.760 for her niece and just you know, a lot of 0:33:01.800 --> 0:33:04.800 people put a lot of stock in in quests because 0:33:04.800 --> 0:33:07.640 they are public and a lot of people, you know, 0:33:07.680 --> 0:33:09.440 I'm not just in Western Australia. A lot of people 0:33:09.480 --> 0:33:12.680 come out of in quests disappointed, because they they very 0:33:12.840 --> 0:33:15.760 rarely bring the answers that people that families hope too. 0:33:16.240 --> 0:33:21.800 But this one, this one, I felt that Anna's frustration 0:33:22.000 --> 0:33:25.640 and anger and was was was justified. 0:33:25.880 --> 0:33:28.120 I'm fascinated by your observations. Can we just stay with 0:33:28.160 --> 0:33:31.520 this for a minute, because this is really interesting because Allison, 0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:33.240 as you know, Tim has been to a whole heap 0:33:33.280 --> 0:33:35.680 of these like you know, this has these for breakfast, 0:33:35.720 --> 0:33:39.200 these inquests and no. But I'm fascinated by your observation, Tim, 0:33:39.240 --> 0:33:44.160 because because I got that feeling just reading the coronial summary, 0:33:44.320 --> 0:33:47.280 you know, reading the whole sort of decision at the 0:33:47.320 --> 0:33:50.680 end of the day by Corona Linton, I mean, and 0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:53.280 that stayed with me. But you were there, you were 0:33:53.320 --> 0:33:55.600 in the room to sort of witness this, you know. 0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:58.320 And this is how many years after the after Amy's death? 0:33:58.320 --> 0:33:59.960 How many it was far. 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:03.200 Twenty twenty one? Yeah, so it was twenty twenty one. 0:34:03.240 --> 0:34:07.880 Seven years, so seven years afterward, seven years afterward, and 0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:10.960 they're still banging on about suicide. And the Currenter seems 0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:14.359 to be from all the official notes that I read, 0:34:15.160 --> 0:34:18.600 seems to be still very user friendly on the suicide angle. 0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:22.440 And then in the end saying you know what, I 0:34:22.440 --> 0:34:25.440 can't quite go there. I'm a bit I'm almost frightened 0:34:25.440 --> 0:34:27.840 to say, yes, it was suicide. So you know what 0:34:27.880 --> 0:34:30.680 I'll do. I'll make an open finding. I'll make an 0:34:30.680 --> 0:34:34.280 open finding. So this will sort of partly please the police, 0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:36.480 but this will also partly please the family. But it's 0:34:36.480 --> 0:34:39.399 not really it's not a finding. It's a two bull 0:34:39.520 --> 0:34:43.120 each way. And there you go and all over, guys. 0:34:43.120 --> 0:34:45.319 So if you've got any new evidence, see you, see 0:34:45.320 --> 0:34:48.640 you next year, a year after. I mean, you know, 0:34:49.440 --> 0:34:51.120 I just can't. I can't wrap my head around that. 0:34:51.160 --> 0:34:53.759 So that's why I'm fascinated to hear your take on it, 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:56.319 because it backs up, It backs up. Not that I 0:34:56.400 --> 0:34:59.560 need that reinforcement, but you know what I mean, because 0:34:59.560 --> 0:35:01.440 you were there and you sort of witness the atmosphere 0:35:01.480 --> 0:35:03.399 as well, because it's all part of it, isn't It's 0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:06.000 not just the words on paper. It's all part of it. 0:35:06.760 --> 0:35:09.480 And also I can't can I just go back again? 0:35:10.080 --> 0:35:11.319 And I don't want to bang on, but I just 0:35:11.360 --> 0:35:16.959 want to go back again because throughout my career I've 0:35:16.960 --> 0:35:22.000 read a lot of the sort of psychoanalysis on eyewitnesses, 0:35:22.120 --> 0:35:24.680 witness accounts. Tim I'm sure you've done the same thing, 0:35:24.719 --> 0:35:28.160 probably read the same sort of books and papers, academic papers. 0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:31.239 One of the things people say, people who are experts 0:35:31.080 --> 0:35:36.160 in this sort of psychological field and areas of forensic psychiatry, 0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:39.120 one of the things they constantly refer back to is 0:35:40.400 --> 0:35:44.880 the concept of contemporaneous notes, especially with the passage of time, 0:35:45.640 --> 0:35:49.600 even more so, the emphasis is on contemporaneous notes. And 0:35:49.640 --> 0:35:52.880 they say, to find out what really happened, the best 0:35:52.960 --> 0:35:55.360 way is not to rely on the witnesses or the 0:35:55.360 --> 0:35:58.839 cross examinations five, six, seven years later, ten years later, 0:35:58.920 --> 0:36:01.040 whatever it is. It's to go back and have a 0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:03.880 look at the source notes, the contemporaneous notes of the 0:36:03.960 --> 0:36:06.360 day in question, or the night in question, whatever it 0:36:06.440 --> 0:36:08.640 may be. And I think all the experts agree with that. 0:36:09.360 --> 0:36:12.400 And if you go back to that night, to the 0:36:12.440 --> 0:36:15.200 immediacy of that night, and you look at those notes, 0:36:16.000 --> 0:36:22.759 you look at those three uniforms that turned up, you know, Roberts, Dixon, Blanford, 0:36:23.200 --> 0:36:25.160 they all say, and we can go ahead and quote 0:36:25.200 --> 0:36:27.080 them now, I won't bore you with the details because 0:36:27.080 --> 0:36:29.839 it's been through our episodes. They all say they were 0:36:29.920 --> 0:36:33.839 highly suspicious. This looked highly suspicious. This did not look 0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:38.200 anything like a suicide. They make various references the way 0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:44.719 Constable Roberts found her, the way Constable Dixon observed the 0:36:44.840 --> 0:36:48.920 other people who were present, the way Constable Blandford interacted 0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:52.440 with them, and what he saw in that bedroom, all 0:36:52.480 --> 0:36:56.759 the contemporaneous notes. It's only when Wiedeman and Kirkman, who 0:36:56.760 --> 0:36:59.759 were since found to be derelict in their duty, it's 0:37:00.160 --> 0:37:02.959 when they get there that that changes. None of those 0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:06.840 three uniforms, none of them, not one of them until 0:37:06.840 --> 0:37:09.399 they got to the coroner's court seven years later, were 0:37:09.440 --> 0:37:13.040 ever formally interviewed by any of those coppers. And that's 0:37:13.040 --> 0:37:15.319 an absolute disgrace. 0:37:23.360 --> 0:37:27.799 That staggers me. They're police officers for craaky Moses. I mean, 0:37:28.760 --> 0:37:30.520 it's not like you wouldn't be able to find them. 0:37:30.640 --> 0:37:32.520 It's not like they weren't willing to come forward. They 0:37:32.520 --> 0:37:36.120 were desperate. They were desperate to give their view of 0:37:36.200 --> 0:37:39.839 the events of that night, and which was evident when 0:37:39.840 --> 0:37:43.919 they finally got to the coroner's court. They were apologetic 0:37:44.080 --> 0:37:49.640 to Amy's family, They cried, they physically interacted with Anna, 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:54.399 hugged it after they'd finished giving their their evidence. So 0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:58.319 for that to be the first and as you say, Liam, 0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:02.080 so you've got it's logic, isn't it. The closer you 0:38:02.160 --> 0:38:04.640 are to the day, the better your memory is going 0:38:04.680 --> 0:38:08.360 to be. And that's core principle throughout the you know, 0:38:08.480 --> 0:38:14.040 the entire justice system, and whenever and whatever crime or 0:38:14.040 --> 0:38:16.719 court case I'm reporting on, the closer you are to 0:38:16.760 --> 0:38:20.759 the source, the first statement you give is always going 0:38:20.800 --> 0:38:23.560 to be you would think, more accurate than the second, third, 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:24.040 and fourth. 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:25.959 Yeah, you don't have to go to Oxford to figure 0:38:25.960 --> 0:38:26.279 that out. 0:38:26.320 --> 0:38:29.400 Well, and I've just you know, having sat through the 0:38:29.800 --> 0:38:33.799 Reynolds and Heans defamation just recently, the contemporaneous notes of 0:38:33.840 --> 0:38:38.320 Fiona Brown about what happened in that week after Brittany 0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:42.239 came forward. They hold so much weight now because Justice Lea, 0:38:43.560 --> 0:38:49.439 in his defamation judgment on Bruce Luhrman said, that's it, 0:38:49.760 --> 0:38:52.399 that's what happened, That's what I believe happened that day. 0:38:52.440 --> 0:38:56.440 Because that is a highly competent chief of staff public 0:38:56.480 --> 0:39:01.239 servant for twenty plus years writing contemporaneous notes not an 0:39:01.239 --> 0:39:03.200 hour after that meeting, So of course that I'm going 0:39:03.200 --> 0:39:05.439 to trust that rather than what everyone else says, spot 0:39:05.440 --> 0:39:06.160 on spot. 0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:08.080 On maybe we need to lobby for justice. 0:39:08.160 --> 0:39:12.640 Leep, he's a man in high demand. He was in 0:39:12.680 --> 0:39:17.000 Western Australia this weekend talking about funny enough, how courts 0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:20.120 should not be doing as many suppression unders as they 0:39:20.160 --> 0:39:21.440 are lim But that's another. 0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:24.560 Podcast for that's a great podcast. There's another podcast. 0:39:24.640 --> 0:39:27.200 Yeah, But as you say, gone back to the Coroner's Court, 0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:30.680 the Coroner's Act in this state, they have some of 0:39:30.680 --> 0:39:34.640 the most swinging powers that any judicial officer can use. 0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:37.759 They can subpoena people, they can lock people up for 0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:40.000 not giving evidence. They can do a lot of things. 0:39:40.080 --> 0:39:43.400 But at the end of the day, their remit is 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:46.839 to find a cause of death. And they often say 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:51.160 I can't lay blame personally, but I can refer to 0:39:51.200 --> 0:39:54.239 another authority, be at the DPP or the police or whatever. 0:39:54.400 --> 0:39:55.280 That's so important. 0:39:55.280 --> 0:39:58.400 But as you say, in this case, for whatever reason, 0:39:58.920 --> 0:40:02.279 Sarah Linton, who I've sat through many of her in 0:40:02.400 --> 0:40:06.840 quests and I've always found a very empathetic, very sympathetic person. 0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:13.200 In this case, I feel that she gave too much 0:40:13.280 --> 0:40:18.960 weight to the wrong pieces of evidence, let's put it 0:40:18.960 --> 0:40:23.359 that way, And particularly the episode two episodes ago where 0:40:23.360 --> 0:40:29.200 you went through the forensic analysis experts. Two separate ones, 0:40:29.400 --> 0:40:32.120 never met each other, didn't consult with each other, came 0:40:32.200 --> 0:40:33.560 up with exactly the same. 0:40:33.360 --> 0:40:36.120 Finding, incredible, one from Perth, one from Sydney. 0:40:35.920 --> 0:40:39.000 Exactly the same find, which was simple Amy could not 0:40:39.239 --> 0:40:40.800 have shot herself exactly. 0:40:40.920 --> 0:40:43.440 Then we brought the expert over from the US and 0:40:43.920 --> 0:40:46.960 what a surprise, he came up with the same conclusion. 0:40:47.400 --> 0:40:48.920 So there's three independent experts. 0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:51.719 Yeah, so going back to the coronial, you've got that 0:40:52.480 --> 0:40:55.400 didn't have your crimecy an expert. But two out of 0:40:55.400 --> 0:40:58.440 three ain't bad, I think meat Love one said, then 0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:02.359 you've got the three police officers that first came up, 0:41:02.640 --> 0:41:04.600 and then you've got all those gaps in the timeline. 0:41:04.920 --> 0:41:08.600 Yeah, well that's it. This is the holy trinity for me. 0:41:09.280 --> 0:41:12.160 You've got the timelines by major crime, you've got the 0:41:12.200 --> 0:41:14.919 contemporaneous notes by the three uniforms who turn up first 0:41:14.920 --> 0:41:19.200 and foremost and see everything fresh. And the third one, 0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:22.960 the third part of that trifector is the left hand 0:41:23.000 --> 0:41:26.359 right hand. So the left hand's got a burnmark on it. 0:41:26.400 --> 0:41:30.759 But the burnmark forensically has been proven to come from 0:41:30.800 --> 0:41:34.520 the muzzle, not the trigger, so she can't have pulled 0:41:34.520 --> 0:41:38.480 the trigger with a left hand impossible from the forensic 0:41:38.600 --> 0:41:43.440 scientific you know analysis, not not my opinion, just scientific analysis. 0:41:44.080 --> 0:41:47.280 She's sitting on a right hand, sitting on a right hand, 0:41:48.160 --> 0:41:50.120 so she can't pull it with a left hand, can't 0:41:50.120 --> 0:41:53.080 pull it with a right hand. I mean, I know. Look, 0:41:55.480 --> 0:41:58.080 I've been watching the Paralympic Games last two weeks and 0:41:58.120 --> 0:42:00.920 they can do some amazing things. You know, seriously, So 0:42:01.000 --> 0:42:04.600 those three things together combined, tim. 0:42:04.400 --> 0:42:09.360 And words matter, right even though the coroner can't, you know, 0:42:09.360 --> 0:42:11.319 it's not like Colombo, and you know she can ask 0:42:11.360 --> 0:42:12.960 one more question right at the end and then you 0:42:13.080 --> 0:42:17.319 can come to a conclusion. But words matter, and the 0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:21.640 weight of a coroner's words matter a lot to authorities 0:42:21.680 --> 0:42:23.560 because it costs a lot of money to put in 0:42:23.640 --> 0:42:25.960 quest on. The coroner's office is a very well funded 0:42:26.760 --> 0:42:30.960 branch of the judicial system in this state. If Sarah 0:42:30.960 --> 0:42:38.480 Linton had had been stronger in her analysis of all 0:42:38.520 --> 0:42:43.640 the elements that we've just gone through, that I believe 0:42:44.040 --> 0:42:49.720 might have triggered a stronger response from other authorities quicker, 0:42:50.840 --> 0:42:55.480 and you know, Mike might not have meant that. Anna 0:42:55.960 --> 0:43:00.480 Davy all those years later, felt like she needs did 0:43:00.880 --> 0:43:05.600 another way to get the case reinvestigated. You know when 0:43:05.640 --> 0:43:07.879 she started talking to you guys. 0:43:08.360 --> 0:43:11.880 Can I say something about Anna, because I think the 0:43:11.920 --> 0:43:16.120 family obviously has made a massive difference, and Anna being 0:43:16.160 --> 0:43:18.920 the one who got the ball rolling straight away. One 0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:20.920 of the things I find with a lot of families 0:43:20.960 --> 0:43:25.000 that come to us with cases is that often they'll 0:43:25.040 --> 0:43:28.920 leave it too late. Where she was on it straight away, 0:43:29.239 --> 0:43:31.759 straight away, So we got the magic crime investigation of 0:43:31.800 --> 0:43:34.040 call case. I mean, really, Anna has been the driving 0:43:34.040 --> 0:43:37.239 force behind all of this. None of this would have 0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:41.600 come about if she hadn't got on there and just 0:43:41.640 --> 0:43:44.640 went I mean, it's just incredible. But one other thing 0:43:44.680 --> 0:43:46.560 I wanted to bring up with a little bit of 0:43:46.560 --> 0:43:49.040 discussion before we close up, because I can't believe there's 0:43:49.040 --> 0:43:52.280 so much to talk about. But in those FI documents, 0:43:52.280 --> 0:43:54.680 now this I didn't put in it. We didn't have 0:43:55.080 --> 0:43:58.160 in the podcast. On page twenty two of those documents 0:43:58.280 --> 0:44:01.240 we got back from WA Police, there's an interesting comment 0:44:01.280 --> 0:44:04.920 in relation to the million dollar rewards in twenty twenty 0:44:04.920 --> 0:44:07.400 three that they brought out, and the person one of 0:44:07.440 --> 0:44:09.600 the people working on it said, our two big issues 0:44:09.640 --> 0:44:13.440 where the standard of our coronial files and FDB family 0:44:13.440 --> 0:44:16.120 domestic violence. They're going to say the case study I 0:44:16.160 --> 0:44:18.680 did related to the death of Amy Wensley and a 0:44:18.800 --> 0:44:23.000 poor initial response led to criticism of WA police and 0:44:23.120 --> 0:44:26.960 individual officers in the Coronial Court. This year's theme will 0:44:27.000 --> 0:44:34.120 be welfare, culture and leadership, leaders in times of adversity Leadership. 0:44:34.200 --> 0:44:37.759 So I just thought, there's a cup of concrete, cup 0:44:37.760 --> 0:44:38.280 of concrete. 0:44:38.320 --> 0:44:40.239 Watch out of that podcast. Cup of concrete. It's going 0:44:40.280 --> 0:44:45.000 to be big, Allison. So you spot on at leadership. 0:44:45.239 --> 0:44:49.480 So Anna has shown enormous leadership Anna Davy. I mean, 0:44:49.640 --> 0:44:52.160 I totally agree with you, and Tim does two. You know, 0:44:52.239 --> 0:44:55.759 she's a gem. She's one out of the pack. If 0:44:55.760 --> 0:44:57.920 you ever get in trouble, tell you what if anyone 0:44:57.920 --> 0:45:01.879 ever takes me down a lonely fush tray which they 0:45:01.960 --> 0:45:07.000 made shallow, shallow, shallow grave, I wish Anna was my 0:45:07.080 --> 0:45:10.520 auntie or sister or unbelievable to have in your corner 0:45:10.560 --> 0:45:14.080 as an advocate. Incredible. But moving on to that comment 0:45:14.160 --> 0:45:17.120 in the FOI docs that's from the police what twenty 0:45:17.120 --> 0:45:19.319 twenty three. So I'm going to completely contradict myself now 0:45:19.320 --> 0:45:22.640 about the coroner because it doesn't matter now, does it. 0:45:22.640 --> 0:45:25.799 It doesn't matter the open finding in twenty twenty one, 0:45:25.800 --> 0:45:28.719 because we moved on three years later, it's not an 0:45:28.760 --> 0:45:29.720 open finding anymore. 0:45:29.760 --> 0:45:30.799 Because that's true. 0:45:30.800 --> 0:45:31.880 It's a homicide inquiry. 0:45:31.920 --> 0:45:32.520 Yeah, that's true. 0:45:32.560 --> 0:45:35.080 We know that from the million dollar reward and the 0:45:35.120 --> 0:45:38.680 new team that's investigating now. But can I just say this, Tim, 0:45:39.360 --> 0:45:43.160 one more thing. Can I just say this, don't underestimate. 0:45:43.200 --> 0:45:45.200 This is coming full circle back to the comments you 0:45:45.200 --> 0:45:48.960 made at the start of this podcast. Don't underestimate the 0:45:49.239 --> 0:45:54.759 lack of quality of leadership in a paramilitary organization such 0:45:54.760 --> 0:45:57.920 as a police force especially. And I'm sad to say 0:45:57.960 --> 0:46:00.880 this because I'm a proud West Dozzie the West Australian 0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:04.240 Police Force, because their track record in leadership is appalling. 0:46:05.360 --> 0:46:09.080 And I mean that in a very personalized way because 0:46:09.480 --> 0:46:13.680 I've had the experience our previous police commissioner, who is 0:46:13.719 --> 0:46:18.120 now the governor, God bless him. I had an experience 0:46:18.400 --> 0:46:21.000 with a TV interview where I asked him some difficult 0:46:21.080 --> 0:46:25.160 questions that were not unreasonable, but they were difficult face 0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:30.600 to face. He did not like being questioned at all, 0:46:31.160 --> 0:46:35.880 to the extent where he then proceeded to ban me 0:46:36.040 --> 0:46:39.960 from appearing on a radio program. I was hosting and 0:46:41.040 --> 0:46:43.960 helped to influence a lot of his senior officers not 0:46:43.960 --> 0:46:46.879 to go on that program either, because hard questions are 0:46:46.880 --> 0:46:50.200 just off the radar. So what I'm saying is, don't 0:46:50.280 --> 0:46:55.080 underestimate the pettiness of a response, even from people who 0:46:55.120 --> 0:46:59.399 are charged with duties in very high places. And I'm 0:46:59.400 --> 0:47:03.400 not suggesting Cold Blanche is of a similar petty, immature nature. 0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:06.120 I'm not saying that necessarily, and I certainly hope that's 0:47:06.160 --> 0:47:10.200 not the case, But I'm just saying, don't underestimate the 0:47:10.239 --> 0:47:15.080 power of the personal in holding up important investigations such 0:47:15.080 --> 0:47:15.360 as this. 0:47:16.400 --> 0:47:21.600 Well, from my outside perspective, the police force is obviously, 0:47:21.640 --> 0:47:26.200 as you say, paramilitary, charged with protecting and investigating, but 0:47:26.719 --> 0:47:29.640 they are also a massive bureaucracy. And what we all 0:47:29.680 --> 0:47:34.359 know of massive bureaucracies are there are shifting sands, there 0:47:34.400 --> 0:47:40.240 are political polls, there are power plays, there are clashing personalities, 0:47:40.719 --> 0:47:43.560 and I think all of those have come into play 0:47:43.640 --> 0:47:48.760 in this case, unfortunately for Anna, because for whatever reason, 0:47:49.400 --> 0:47:51.880 where their old mate was just going on leave like 0:47:51.960 --> 0:47:55.040 it might you know what, And that really gets my 0:47:55.160 --> 0:47:59.239 goat Liam that all this ten years, it seems to me, 0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:04.440 was because one Copper didn't want to do the paperwork 0:48:04.480 --> 0:48:06.200 because he was going on and leave the next day. 0:48:07.000 --> 0:48:12.680 And from that simple human error, all this can flow 0:48:13.320 --> 0:48:18.719 and which is disappointing in itself, right w A police, 0:48:19.120 --> 0:48:23.680 You're right, the higher up you go in bureaucracies, the 0:48:24.080 --> 0:48:28.319 less leaders like to be questioned hard. And you know, 0:48:28.360 --> 0:48:31.160 you can take any bureaucracy for that, and s policing 0:48:31.600 --> 0:48:34.680 in particular because they're not used to it, if for one, 0:48:34.840 --> 0:48:39.640 and it can expose those leaders to those shifting sands, 0:48:39.800 --> 0:48:44.600 personality clashes, ambition, whatever. So from what I've seen of 0:48:44.600 --> 0:48:48.719 cole Blant at his time, he's he's not afraid to 0:48:49.280 --> 0:48:53.880 front the media. He has his particular investigations and and 0:48:53.960 --> 0:48:56.279 Area's investigation that he that he that he that he 0:48:56.320 --> 0:49:02.040 obviously enjoys and likes and and funds. And I hope 0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:06.640 that he would would be big enough and brave enough 0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:10.120 to come on here on this podcast in the next 0:49:10.200 --> 0:49:13.279 six or seven weeks when we do these conversations and 0:49:13.480 --> 0:49:17.359 answer some of those questions, because they're still unanswered, and 0:49:17.400 --> 0:49:20.839 that's after ten years, that that has to be seen 0:49:20.920 --> 0:49:23.840 as a lack of something from WA police. 0:49:23.960 --> 0:49:24.880 That's the bottom line. 0:49:25.239 --> 0:49:27.719 Well, that's what leadership is. Right now, I just want 0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:30.480 to say one other thing. After that million dollar reward 0:49:30.840 --> 0:49:34.640 was announced or wars being organized, Craig, who was the 0:49:34.680 --> 0:49:38.520 officer in charge of the Special Crime scored homicide. Again 0:49:38.560 --> 0:49:43.399 this wasn't in the podcast now. He wrote back and said, 0:49:43.520 --> 0:49:46.480 as part of these emails we got under fy we 0:49:46.560 --> 0:49:50.440 don't classify as debt as either a homicide or a suicide, 0:49:50.440 --> 0:49:53.759 but an open investigation into her death. At present, we 0:49:53.840 --> 0:49:56.560 have not received any information that can assist us in 0:49:56.600 --> 0:50:00.200 the investigation into the death Amy. The investigation roomain, it's 0:50:00.239 --> 0:50:03.839 open and in line with the current fighting, will remain open. 0:50:04.120 --> 0:50:06.560 Well, that's right. I mean, here's on news flash. Sometimes 0:50:06.600 --> 0:50:08.640 you need to actually go out, get out of the 0:50:08.680 --> 0:50:12.080 office to find the evidence. You can't just sit there 0:50:12.080 --> 0:50:16.120 and wait for the crime stoppers extension to ring. So 0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:18.720 hopefully this new team when they say a new team, 0:50:19.160 --> 0:50:21.200 because this is a very sort of obtuse sort of 0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:24.440 you know, it's not a task force, it's a team, 0:50:24.800 --> 0:50:27.360 new team, and it was there an old team. I 0:50:27.400 --> 0:50:32.000 don't really think so. So a new team, are they 0:50:32.360 --> 0:50:36.200 actively proactively investigating? Are they actually going out and doing 0:50:36.320 --> 0:50:38.560 such as what we did and we talked about Tim 0:50:38.640 --> 0:50:42.880 knocking on the door and saying, excuse me, excuse me, David, 0:50:43.160 --> 0:50:47.919 we'd like to have a word, mate. That's a genuine question. 0:50:47.960 --> 0:50:52.120 I mean, I'm not being a smart ass. I'm actually 0:50:52.160 --> 0:50:57.880 asking a genuine question. But hopefully somebody somewhere doesn't have 0:50:58.040 --> 0:51:01.000 already a glass jaw that can just talk about the 0:51:01.120 --> 0:51:04.600 case openly and try to find you know, and try 0:51:04.640 --> 0:51:07.719 to help us put the public pressure on finding the 0:51:07.880 --> 0:51:10.560 actual truth. It's not really asking too much. 0:51:10.719 --> 0:51:13.040 So all they have to do is compile a new 0:51:13.040 --> 0:51:14.239 brief put it to the dp. 0:51:14.840 --> 0:51:17.239 Well, there's been briefs, and Tim, you'll back me up 0:51:17.239 --> 0:51:20.359 on this. There's been briefs given to the TPP that 0:51:20.440 --> 0:51:24.520 look a lot shallower than this one, which have resulted 0:51:24.560 --> 0:51:25.120 in a trial. 0:51:25.440 --> 0:51:27.759 And again, I hate to go back to it, but 0:51:28.400 --> 0:51:33.880 the DPP is also under its own pressures. But they 0:51:34.320 --> 0:51:38.080 are bound by the law, right and so it's pretty 0:51:38.080 --> 0:51:40.520 black and white for the DPP. If they don't think 0:51:41.239 --> 0:51:43.480 there is a case there, then they can go back 0:51:43.520 --> 0:51:47.920 to the police and say there's not enough. And then 0:51:48.280 --> 0:51:50.480 the police can go Okay, we'll keep looking, or the 0:51:50.480 --> 0:51:53.160 police will go, well we've done and We've chased on 0:51:53.360 --> 0:51:55.879 every lead and you know we've done everything we can. 0:51:56.040 --> 0:51:59.439 So's that's not a one, one time deal. You don't 0:51:59.480 --> 0:52:02.120 just get to go do the DPP once and so 0:52:02.160 --> 0:52:05.000 you know, it's it's a it's an ongoing thing. I mean, 0:52:05.120 --> 0:52:10.080 you know Clearmont, they had they had DPP people sat 0:52:10.160 --> 0:52:14.239 in the same office as the police and as the prosecutor, 0:52:14.360 --> 0:52:18.480 all working together, so to get that case together right, 0:52:18.560 --> 0:52:20.920 ready for a whatever it might be a trial or 0:52:21.400 --> 0:52:24.279 or you know, a sentencing or whatever it would have 0:52:24.280 --> 0:52:27.400 turned out. And that happens all the time. John quickly 0:52:28.080 --> 0:52:29.799 for whatever is and says, no, I'm not going to 0:52:29.880 --> 0:52:31.719 direct the police to do it. I haven't got the 0:52:32.000 --> 0:52:34.319 power to direct the police to do it, of course, 0:52:35.280 --> 0:52:39.520 But you know, a lunch maybe with with Rob Owens 0:52:39.600 --> 0:52:42.279 and a new team leader from Operation Mix or whatever 0:52:42.280 --> 0:52:46.080 they're calling it. Now, you know you can you can 0:52:46.120 --> 0:52:48.799 talk about these things. Surely you can talk about these things. 0:52:49.080 --> 0:52:52.719 Does he have a Google calendar stick it in that? 0:52:53.120 --> 0:52:56.600 I mean, that's that's exactly right, That's exactly right. When 0:52:56.640 --> 0:52:59.080 they have a round table. So guys, okay, how else 0:52:59.120 --> 0:53:01.680 do we strategize the Well, what sort of approach are 0:53:01.719 --> 0:53:03.480 we making at the moment. What are we actually doing? 0:53:03.560 --> 0:53:05.160 What are we doing with this new team? How many 0:53:05.160 --> 0:53:07.640 people on it? You know, who are we talking to? 0:53:08.320 --> 0:53:10.440 Are you know? If we chase down all the leads, 0:53:10.480 --> 0:53:13.200 can we go back and interview the same people again? 0:53:13.400 --> 0:53:15.920 Can we call them in for another another chat? Can 0:53:15.960 --> 0:53:19.080 we go back and cross reference various statements that have 0:53:19.080 --> 0:53:20.479 been made in the past. I mean, there's a million 0:53:20.480 --> 0:53:21.759 things you can do, right Can we. 0:53:21.760 --> 0:53:26.040 Check the veracity of Joshua Bryan's timeline of whether it 0:53:26.120 --> 0:53:26.680 was there or not? 0:53:27.040 --> 0:53:29.439 You think you think, given the information that we've had 0:53:29.520 --> 0:53:31.279 in recent weeks, you think that would be the first thing, 0:53:31.280 --> 0:53:35.200 As I say, but there are so many There are 0:53:35.239 --> 0:53:38.880 so many. This is a grab bag of inconsistencies this case. 0:53:39.360 --> 0:53:43.600 And we've heard it on this podcast time and time 0:53:43.640 --> 0:53:46.880 again from other people much more learned than ourselves, that 0:53:48.280 --> 0:53:50.960 they have been high profile cases which have resulted in 0:53:51.000 --> 0:53:57.760 a conviction around Australia, which have been taken and briefed 0:53:57.920 --> 0:54:01.800 and double briefed, and charges have been with less material 0:54:01.920 --> 0:54:05.080 than is on the table right now in Amy's case. 0:54:05.400 --> 0:54:06.680 The family is better. 0:54:07.360 --> 0:54:10.040 We've all said something, but I just wanted to again 0:54:10.200 --> 0:54:14.160 pay tribute to Anna, because without hearing, none of this 0:54:14.280 --> 0:54:16.720 would have happened. I know it's a cliche, but it's true. 0:54:18.200 --> 0:54:22.600 She came up to me and another journalist actually, who 0:54:22.640 --> 0:54:25.680 were the only two on the first morning of Amy's 0:54:25.680 --> 0:54:30.439 in quest, because I'd never heard and I keep going 0:54:30.480 --> 0:54:33.719 back to that after seven years, I'd never heard of 0:54:33.719 --> 0:54:36.960 this case until that first day of that in quest. 0:54:37.239 --> 0:54:39.880 And we went and myself and I'll give him a 0:54:39.960 --> 0:54:42.720 name check David Webber from the ABC. Yeah, good friend, 0:54:43.160 --> 0:54:46.600 great journo, old schools, a bit like yourself, good load, 0:54:46.640 --> 0:54:49.799 Dave yea. And we sat there and listened to the 0:54:49.840 --> 0:54:52.640 opening and looked at each other and went at this 0:54:52.680 --> 0:54:57.000 before well where's this being? Where's this come from? And 0:54:57.080 --> 0:54:59.880 we listened and we listened, and then we were stood 0:54:59.920 --> 0:55:03.839 up side the court at lunch time saying the same thing, 0:55:04.800 --> 0:55:07.880 and Anna being Anna, just came straight up to us 0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:12.040 put her hand out. Hello, I'm Anna, I mean Amy's niece. 0:55:12.400 --> 0:55:14.600 Can I talk to you about her? For five minutes 0:55:14.600 --> 0:55:18.440 and went he of course, I rang the desk and 0:55:18.480 --> 0:55:21.799 I said, this is this inquest, man, this is this 0:55:21.880 --> 0:55:24.600 is something. This is something weirds going on here, and 0:55:25.160 --> 0:55:28.200 you know, you you try and boil three three hours 0:55:28.200 --> 0:55:30.160 of evidence down into you know, a two minute phone 0:55:30.200 --> 0:55:32.160 call your news desk, trying to squeeze it in. And 0:55:32.200 --> 0:55:34.279 I said, look, I'm I'm just going to stick with 0:55:34.320 --> 0:55:37.239 it this this week because this is interesting and disturbing 0:55:37.320 --> 0:55:40.879 and confronting and a little bit troubling. That's what I did. 0:55:41.080 --> 0:55:45.040 Wrote a feature on the for the Sunday paper, and 0:55:45.080 --> 0:55:50.239 Anna being Anna, rang me and said, thank you, thank me, 0:55:50.600 --> 0:55:52.600 thank me. I've been there a week. She've been doing 0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:56.200 it seven years and she was thanking me. So that's 0:55:56.239 --> 0:55:58.840 the that's the measure of the woman, and the measure 0:55:58.960 --> 0:56:03.319 of the care that she has for Amy and her 0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:06.240 family and for the truth. 0:56:06.360 --> 0:56:09.680 Yeah, that's that's a quality character, isn't it so good? 0:56:09.840 --> 0:56:13.600 As Anna said, she had to do it because Nancy couldn't. 0:56:13.680 --> 0:56:17.120 Nancy was broken. She had to step up. And those 0:56:17.120 --> 0:56:20.600 little girls six and four, you know, So that's that's 0:56:20.640 --> 0:56:24.200 who we're doing for, and they deserve the truth. 0:56:24.320 --> 0:56:26.440 I agree. I totally agree. They're a lovely family. And 0:56:26.480 --> 0:56:28.759 the girls. I'll tell you what the Asseid test is. 0:56:28.800 --> 0:56:33.120 If you meet the girls now as teenagers, aren't they Allison? 0:56:33.120 --> 0:56:36.080 You'll back me up on this. I mean there's such lovely, balanced, 0:56:36.640 --> 0:56:41.880 intelligent girls. The family has done an amazing job of 0:56:43.160 --> 0:56:47.720 nurturing that development since that tragedy of their mum dying 0:56:48.000 --> 0:56:50.840 like that. I mean, that's just yeah, it's quite extraordinary actually, 0:56:52.000 --> 0:56:54.160 and that's the measure. That's the measure of the whole family. 0:56:54.239 --> 0:56:59.480 But but you know, coming back full circle, that's the 0:56:59.520 --> 0:57:04.400 other thing about John Quigley, our state's attorney general. He says, 0:57:04.520 --> 0:57:06.879 and this will be an issue, tim this is going 0:57:06.920 --> 0:57:10.280 to be a big issue. Here's another newsflash for the government. 0:57:11.040 --> 0:57:14.400 Roger cooks out in about just yesterday on the virtually 0:57:14.440 --> 0:57:17.920 on the Hustings. It's the sort of phantom election campaigns 0:57:18.320 --> 0:57:20.480 because they've got to go to the polls next it's 0:57:20.520 --> 0:57:23.960 next March, next March, so that's a very short space 0:57:24.000 --> 0:57:26.880 of time with the Christmas break, it's not very far away. 0:57:27.400 --> 0:57:28.959 So this is and you know, one of the things 0:57:28.960 --> 0:57:31.840 they will campaign very strongly on. You can see it 0:57:31.920 --> 0:57:35.960 rip large already. You don't have to be nostrodamus to 0:57:35.960 --> 0:57:40.960 figure this out. Domestic violence and support for domestic violence victims. 0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:46.760 And I'm saying to John Quigley right now, John, if 0:57:46.800 --> 0:57:48.600 you think mate that you're going to get up on 0:57:48.600 --> 0:57:52.720 the hustings and bang the drum on behalf of the 0:57:52.720 --> 0:57:56.640 government even though he's leaving. If you think you're going 0:57:56.680 --> 0:57:58.440 to say, hey, listen, we're doing all we can for 0:57:58.480 --> 0:58:01.000 domestic violence victims. And you've got the case of Amy 0:58:01.040 --> 0:58:03.600 Wensley sitting here steering you in the face, which you 0:58:03.640 --> 0:58:06.280 refuse to do anything about. You've got another thing coming 0:58:06.360 --> 0:58:08.760 because you will be called out on it and your 0:58:08.800 --> 0:58:12.120 government will suffer as a result. It's as simple as that. 0:58:12.200 --> 0:58:14.640 It's going to be. It's going to be a very 0:58:15.000 --> 0:58:16.040 very touchy subject. 0:58:16.600 --> 0:58:19.800 And there's always another Attorney General coming. There has to 0:58:19.800 --> 0:58:24.200 be an Attorney general. So whomever is going to be 0:58:24.360 --> 0:58:29.320 moving into that office there might have a burning file 0:58:29.360 --> 0:58:31.280 in their inbox when they get there. 0:58:31.360 --> 0:58:34.320 Maybe not make the same mistake twice, but there's still 0:58:34.320 --> 0:58:36.240 a lot of time for him to take some action, 0:58:36.360 --> 0:58:37.840 do something to him, hope. 0:58:37.880 --> 0:58:40.120 So I hope it doesn't take that long. I hope 0:58:40.120 --> 0:58:43.200 it doesn't take that long. All right, Well, thank you 0:58:43.280 --> 0:58:46.000 so much. I think. Look, we've got so much to discuss. 0:58:46.040 --> 0:58:49.280 Tom person is going to join us again, our counselor 0:58:49.280 --> 0:58:53.840 who's an end Yes, so it'll be good to catch 0:58:53.920 --> 0:58:57.680 up with him. So Laura Richard's the criminal analyst, famous international. 0:58:57.760 --> 0:59:00.480 She's going to be joining us on this program as well. 0:59:00.720 --> 0:59:04.160 There's a few other names that I'm just cross referencing 0:59:04.600 --> 0:59:07.720 at the moment. So I hope everyone's enjoyed this our 0:59:07.760 --> 0:59:11.400 first conversations and look forward to setting you boys again. 0:59:11.520 --> 0:59:14.080 So well, very hard for anyone to say no to you, Allison. 0:59:14.160 --> 0:59:16.240 So who knows who's coming up? 0:59:16.320 --> 0:59:18.800 Amen? How did I end up here? 0:59:20.600 --> 0:59:20.640 No? 0:59:20.840 --> 0:59:25.920 I mean it's all serious, thoroughly enjoyed listening. I've been 0:59:25.960 --> 0:59:29.160 a listener, you know. I've been getting the the episodes 0:59:29.280 --> 0:59:31.880 slightly earlier than everyone else, but I've been looking forward 0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:35.080 to everyone. So thank you for involving me. Thank you 0:59:35.240 --> 0:59:38.960 for the conversation this morning. And yeah, just let's just hope, 0:59:39.520 --> 0:59:42.920 hope that we can keep the pressure on and get 0:59:42.960 --> 0:59:43.360 to the truth. 0:59:43.720 --> 0:59:45.400 Thank you, Thank you Tim for all your hard work, 0:59:45.440 --> 0:59:49.120 and Allison you especially for coordinating everything and pushing and 0:59:49.160 --> 0:59:51.000 pushing and pushing because that's what we need on this 0:59:51.280 --> 0:59:51.920 So thank you. 0:59:52.160 --> 0:59:54.840 Team Epic, Team Eppet always is it has to be. 0:59:54.960 --> 1:00:03.640 We'll speak next week and to only be her again