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Speaker 1: Podcasting.

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Speaker 2: Now we are joined in the studio right now by

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Speaker 2: a very very special guest, certainly the first that's been

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Speaker 2: in this studio on this show. She is our twenty

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Speaker 2: six year old Australian of the Year.

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Speaker 1: Have a listened to this.

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Speaker 3: When I first reported, I was shamed and ridiculed by some,

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Speaker 3: but now my truth is helping to reconnect us. I

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Speaker 3: know who I am. I'm a survivor, a proud Tasmanian.

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Speaker 2: Grape teams in the studio with hell money.

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Speaker 3: How are you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not bad?

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Speaker 3: How are you guys?

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Speaker 1: So, first of all, on the Tazzy thing.

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Speaker 2: First Tazzy to be Australian of the Year. Simon Baker

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Speaker 2: absolutely livid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, copet Simon.

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Speaker 3: Try harder man, seriously.

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Speaker 1: Ricky Ponte, you later touch me if you can, like

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Speaker 1: the Captain of Australia.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, compared to you.

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Speaker 1: Get up there, get working.

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Speaker 4: How has life been since you've been named Australian of

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Speaker 4: the Year.

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Speaker 1: Like what a title?

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Speaker 3: Oh so low key, so calm.

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Speaker 4: You've been flown in to go to the Australian Open Yeah, apparently.

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Speaker 1: That is wild.

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Speaker 2: So just so you know, and you can sense the

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Speaker 2: disparity between our fame in the Australian media landscape. Woody

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Speaker 2: and I got asked to go to a tent next

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Speaker 2: to Center Court on the opening night. I imagine you'll have

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Speaker 2: front row seats to the to the final.

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Speaker 1: Can we swap?

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Speaker 3: That sounds wed?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well definitely if amazing? Are you saying that we

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Speaker 1: can take your seats tonight?

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Speaker 3: Sure? It's tomorrow and over?

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Speaker 1: Yeah done, Okay, we'll talk off it. I had a

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Speaker 1: family barbecue, so you can go to my family barbecue.

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Speaker 3: That sounds elk, All.

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Speaker 1: Right, lock it down, sounds elate, now, Grace.

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Speaker 2: In the news this week, there's obviously been a bit

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Speaker 2: of stuff going on in and around sexual abuse survivors. Now,

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Speaker 2: I don't want you to comment on that specifically because

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Speaker 2: I know what you've said. You've said it's not for

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Speaker 2: you to take the microphone. They're coming forward in their

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Speaker 2: own way.

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Speaker 1: But I've got a question for you too.

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Speaker 2: It's two parts really, So first of all, for you,

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Speaker 2: how does it feel to know that you're inspiring other

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Speaker 2: people broadly? And second of all, did you have somebody

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Speaker 2: else that inspired you to talk about your story as

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Speaker 2: a survivor.

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Speaker 3: Well, to answer the first question, it's incredible. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's the whole point, is that we're using our voices

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Speaker 3: to empower other people to do the same and share

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Speaker 3: the platform and keep spreading the message of raising awareness

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Speaker 3: and normalizing the conversation around sexual abuse and educating so

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Speaker 3: that we can actually prevent it from happening in the

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Speaker 3: first place. And to answer the second part, I'm always

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Speaker 3: inspired by human beings. So it's a really hard sort

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Speaker 3: of question to answer, because I could name and full

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Speaker 3: of people that have constantly inspired me and continue to

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Speaker 3: inspire me.

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Speaker 2: So within your story specifically, though, there wasn't you know,

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Speaker 2: like a counselor or someone that you went to in

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Speaker 2: the immediate scene or.

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Speaker 1: Was there like it?

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Speaker 3: No, it wasn't. It wasn't that sort of I guess

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Speaker 3: it wasn't that much of an epiphanis thing. I've always

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Speaker 3: been motivated by. I want to help others and educate

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Speaker 3: others and protect the community and also further community progress.

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Speaker 3: So that was always my driving force and it continues

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Speaker 3: to be in my driving force. That's why I'm here, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, looking at the tattoo on your hands there, Grace.

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Speaker 4: I I let to talk about the tattoo on your hands.

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Speaker 3: No, it's okay. You can talk about it if you

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Speaker 3: want to. But I mean, like, uh, I guess I've

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Speaker 3: been asked about it a lot, and I will find

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Speaker 3: that odd. But that's okay. I mean, I don't mind

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Speaker 3: talking about it. I've got lots of silly tattoos. Honestly,

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Speaker 3: I've got another. I've got another one on my hand

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Speaker 3: that says don't drink my beer, which is far more

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Speaker 3: important anybody. I think there's a it's more that I

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Speaker 3: would just like to you know, I've got this platform,

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Speaker 3: and I'm really excited to shed light on this issue,

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Speaker 3: and I'd rather spend my time talking about that.

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Speaker 4: Oh sure, So I thought, so the tattoos is eat

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Speaker 4: my fear.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I thought that was related to it is.

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Speaker 3: In a way. Yeah, it is. It's about acknowledging that

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Speaker 3: the negativity that's out there, the fears that are out there,

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Speaker 3: and kind of converting them, I suppose, like swallowing them,

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Speaker 3: swallowing your negative feelings and converting them into positive energy

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Speaker 3: to use as a driving force for whatever you want

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Speaker 3: to do in your life. But yeah, I guess it's

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Speaker 3: so funny because up until this point I'd kind of

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Speaker 3: been embarrassed by my tattoos because they're a bit they're

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Speaker 3: a bit grungy and a bit.

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Speaker 4: You know, I've got a walros on my ass, so

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Speaker 4: you have nothing to be embarrassed about.

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Speaker 2: I have a mer cat on my ass as well,

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Speaker 2: and I have half a horse on my foot, so

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Speaker 2: you know, out of the three of us, you're in

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Speaker 2: the lead.

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Speaker 1: You're in a safe space. Don't worry, mate, don't worry.

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Speaker 1: Nothing to be ashamed of.

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Speaker 2: But he got half a horse tattooed on his foot

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Speaker 2: for a one night stand with a girl.

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Speaker 4: So not a one that's not true. It was a

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Speaker 4: first date. It was a first date which was only

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Speaker 4: one date.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, you actually do okay, Well, where's the

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Speaker 3: other half of the horse? I want to know.

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Speaker 1: We don't know each other that well yet we've got

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Speaker 1: more Australian of the years.

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Speaker 2: She's going to join us right next and use this

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Speaker 2: platform to talk about exactly that sort of stuff inspiring

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Speaker 2: you guys out there. If you're listening to this though,

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Speaker 2: and you would like someone to talk to him immediately,

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Speaker 2: if you are a victim of sexual abuse, one hundred

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Speaker 2: respect is the number.

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Speaker 1: It's a twenty four hour hotline that's available to you, guys.

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Speaker 1: More Grace team. Right up next on Will and What.

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Speaker 2: We've got a very special guest in the Australian of

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Speaker 2: the Year. Grace Tamer's in the studio right now. Grace

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Speaker 2: is a survivor of sexual abuse. That's what she's campaigning

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Speaker 2: for awareness in and around that. Now here's Grace winning

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Speaker 2: her award at the Australian of the Year.

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Speaker 1: Have listen to this.

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Speaker 3: I remember him saying, don't make a sound. Well hear

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Speaker 3: me now using my voice amongst a growing chorus.

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Speaker 1: Of voices that will not be silenced. Powerful message. Grace,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to the studio.

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Speaker 2: I want to thrill down a little bit on exactly

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Speaker 2: what you were a victim of, which is child grooming. Yes,

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Speaker 2: I know that's something that it's a particular point of

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Speaker 2: interest for you. Yes, can you talk a little bit

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Speaker 2: more about what you went through and why this continues

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Speaker 2: to be a campaign for you on that front.

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Speaker 3: Well, when I was fifteen, I was abused by my teacher,

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Speaker 3: who was fifty eight at the time. Now, one of

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Speaker 3: the things that drove me in the first place to

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Speaker 3: wanting to speak out was a sort of gap that

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Speaker 3: I suppose I identified in our collective understanding of what

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Speaker 3: actually is child sexual abuse, and that gap is the

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Speaker 3: psychological manipulation that underpin it, and whether that's in the

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Speaker 3: form of grooming in the case of child sexual abuse,

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Speaker 3: or in the case of domestic violence, it's called coercive control.

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Speaker 3: But it really refers to that balance. I suppose that

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Speaker 3: that predators strike between causing pain but also providing relief

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Speaker 3: from that pain, and it's that, Yeah, it's that cognitive

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Speaker 3: dissonance that they lock you in that actually enables the

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Speaker 3: abuse because you are conditioned to feel guilt forever even

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Speaker 3: questioning your abuser, let alone, let alone telling somebody else. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So it's not that it's not that simple. You know,

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Speaker 3: if it was just a clear cutcase of somebody abusing you,

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Speaker 3: you know, it'd be very easy to go, oh, okay,

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Speaker 3: well just just get out. This is this is horrible.

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Speaker 3: But there, but there is there's so much more to it.

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Speaker 3: It's a it's a constant push pull sort of building

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Speaker 3: you up, then breaking you down and making making you

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Speaker 3: I mean, you might have heard the term gas lighting,

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Speaker 3: making you feel crazy, making you completely doubt yourself. Because

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Speaker 3: what predators are so successful at doing is not only

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Speaker 3: isolating you from your genuine support systems. This is one

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Speaker 3: of the aspects of grooming. It's called the isolation process.

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Speaker 3: Not only are they really good at isolating you from

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Speaker 3: your friends and family and people around you who could

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Speaker 3: possibly intervene, they're really good at destroying your trust in yourself,

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Speaker 3: so that you actually have no concept of self, especially

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Speaker 3: as a child. You know, when you're really impressionable and

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Speaker 3: you're you're figuring out who you are, and you're taking

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Speaker 3: your cues from those around you, especially people in positions

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Speaker 3: of authority.

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Speaker 4: So you came out with when you're fifteen years old

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Speaker 4: and you were coming out of that situation and you

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Speaker 4: were feeling guilty.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's actually yeah, so it's really interesting. So it's

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Speaker 3: I think it's twenty three two point nine years is

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Speaker 3: the average time that it takes a survivor of child

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Speaker 3: sexual abuse to actually share their experience. Such is such

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Speaker 3: is the success of a predator at instilling fear and

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Speaker 3: self doubt in the minds of their targets.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: That's the reality of shame induced silence, is that it

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Speaker 3: takes that long because it's so complicated, right.

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Speaker 1: And hypnotic.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 2: It almost sounds like a fairy tale. We've got a

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Speaker 2: wit chip with a spell on it.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, it is like that.

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Speaker 1: Your sense of perspective on the situation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you question everything. Yeah, and that's by design.

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Speaker 1: So do you mind if I ask you? I hope

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Speaker 1: this isn't triggering in any sort of a way.

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Speaker 2: But like when you think about what happened to you,

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Speaker 2: because you obviously broke this cycle earlier than people normally

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Speaker 2: would in terms of how you've responded to.

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Speaker 3: It, yes, I mean I did and I didn't.

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Speaker 1: Is it still something that yeah, it.

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Speaker 3: Is still And that's what people have to understand, is

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Speaker 3: it is that it is still something that that you know,

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Speaker 3: it stays with you. I've obviously come a long way

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Speaker 3: in my healing journey, thinks to an incredible team of

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Speaker 3: support that I've had around me since day one. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm very lucky as far as survivors go. You know

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Speaker 3: a lot of survivors out there don't have people that

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Speaker 3: believe them, but you know, I've always had that. But

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Speaker 3: it is still something that that has a mark. You know,

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Speaker 3: it leaves, it leaves, and that's that's what's so hard

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Speaker 3: is because you know, physical abuse leaves leaves, it leaves

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Speaker 3: physical marks, and the the psychological manipulation it's invisible, you know,

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Speaker 3: and the effects last a lifetime. And I think that's

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Speaker 3: what's so hard for people to understand. People on the

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Speaker 3: outside who have no firsthand experience of these crimes, it's

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Speaker 3: it's hard for them to relate and to understand because

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Speaker 3: because the what these predators do is untraceable, and that's

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Speaker 3: how they get away with a lot of it is

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Speaker 3: because you can't see what they're doing.

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Speaker 2: And the other part of this is as well, Grace

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Speaker 2: is And I said to you in the song You're

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Speaker 2: you're the first sexual abuse survivor that that we've interviewed

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Speaker 2: in the studio. And funny, like, I know, you know,

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Speaker 2: I get nervous interviewing you, talking to you about it

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Speaker 2: because I get worried that.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to step on land mines.

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Speaker 2: And then you hilariously got in my face and rattled

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Speaker 2: the desk and said pressure.

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Speaker 1: Pressure, which is which is?

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Speaker 2: Which is true?

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Speaker 1: Though, because that's that's honestly how I felt.

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Speaker 3: So predators want that, Yes, that's what I was going

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Speaker 3: to ask about fuel that division. Any given opportunity. Predators

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Speaker 3: will drive wedges between communities and.

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Speaker 1: Not let us talk about this sort of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because it serves their end. When we fight amongst ourselves,

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Speaker 3: it takes attention away from their behavior. So this is why,

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Speaker 3: you know, you know, one of the myths is that

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Speaker 3: it's all you know, it's it's a it's a gendered issue,

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Speaker 3: that it's women against men, which is not the case

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Speaker 3: at all. In fact, very early on in the piece,

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Speaker 3: when I was first you know, pursuing my voice, a

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Speaker 3: lot of the fellow survivors that I spoke to were men,

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Speaker 3: and in fact they were middle aged men who were

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Speaker 3: victims of clergy abuse, you know, because there are a

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Speaker 3: lot more parallels between their stories and my stories of

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Speaker 3: being groomed. So yeah, it's not like everyone's welcome at

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Speaker 3: everyone's welcome at the table. You know, this doesn't have

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Speaker 3: to be the pursuit of change on any given issue

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Speaker 3: doesn't have to be adversarial. It's about it's not even

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Speaker 3: about tearing down individual victims, not victims, so it's not

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Speaker 3: about tearing down any individual perpetrators either. I think it's

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Speaker 3: more about looking at the behavior as being shameful and

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Speaker 3: really shedding light on that shameful behavior and redirecting the

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Speaker 3: blame and shame towards the behavior and away from from

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Speaker 3: victims survivors. Yeah, that's the whole point.

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Speaker 1: It's great stuff. What's the what's the path forward here

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Speaker 1: for you?

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Speaker 2: Then, grace in terms of continuing to raise awareness and

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Speaker 2: demystify the conversation.

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Speaker 1: I'm stealing that.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm gonna I don't know, I have lots of

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Speaker 3: different goals, but I guess my three main goals for

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Speaker 3: this year are to continue normalizing the conversation, you know,

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Speaker 3: and I feel like we've even made headway today, Like

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Speaker 3: just just for you guys, just for you too, even

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Speaker 3: if even if that's all it is just a couple

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Speaker 3: of people.

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Speaker 1: You know, like one person at a time, feeling.

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Speaker 3: Reminding, reminding ourselves about common humanity. This doesn't have to

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Speaker 3: be a heavy conversation. We can we can have a

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Speaker 3: sense of humor about us as well.

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Speaker 4: And feeling that as well, Like if you are listening

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Speaker 4: to this, this is this should be a fine conversation

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Speaker 4: that you have with people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so, so normalizing the conversation, empowering survivors by

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Speaker 3: doing so and encouraging other people to come forward, but

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Speaker 3: then also really focusing on education around this issue, and

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Speaker 3: like I was talking about, for one of those big

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Speaker 3: key issues that we need to look at is the

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Speaker 3: psychological manipulation the grooming that underpins sexual abuse and the

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Speaker 3: lasting impacts of those things as well. And then aside

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Speaker 3: from education, looking at ways that we can better review

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Speaker 3: and reform our legislation and other such institutional structures to

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Speaker 3: better support survivors as opposed to enable predators, which a

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Speaker 3: lot of unfortunately a lot of policies do. Because anything yeah,

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Speaker 3: anything that silences and yeah, anything that silences and disempowers

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Speaker 3: a victim further, yea, it feeds the predators and yeah,

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Speaker 3: yeah yeah. And then things like just simple definitions around

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Speaker 3: certain issues to do with sexual abuse. For instance, we've

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Speaker 3: got eight different jurisdictions and therefore we've got eight different

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Speaker 3: definitions of consent. And it's so strange. Consent is like

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Speaker 3: you can't consent a little bit, Like you can't be

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Speaker 3: a little bit, you can't be a little bit dead,

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Speaker 3: can't be a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so much it's absolutely filled with land.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's not necessarily that one is better than

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Speaker 3: the other. It's the fact that they're all different and

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Speaker 3: that ambiguity contributes to misunderstanding around something that we should

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Speaker 3: have a hard line on. You know, we should have

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Speaker 3: a zero tolerance policy around sexual abuse. End of story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Grace's a powerful message. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: coming in the studio today.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me on.

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Speaker 2: It's been really good, honestly, a wonderful thing, a wonderful

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Speaker 2: message to share. If you are listening to this and

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Speaker 2: you'd like to talk to someone immediately, one eight hundred

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Speaker 2: Respect is a twenty four hour hotline which is always

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Speaker 2: available to you.

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Speaker 4: Obviously, speak to you about getting the tickets to the

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Speaker 4: Australian Open off you front row seats and you're going

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Speaker 4: to my family dinner tomorrow night.

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Speaker 2: Hell yes much.

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Speaker 1: Huge, Mum and Dad get excited. Australia the year is

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Speaker 1: coming to family dinner.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, honestly, thanks so much for coming in man, and

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Speaker 2: congratulations on all you've achieved, all you will achieve, and

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Speaker 2: your capacity to bounce back of what can only be

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Speaker 2: just the most terrific experience and turning it into a positive.

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Speaker 2: The way that you have now is the reason you're

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Speaker 2: in training that you make.

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Speaker 1: Congratulations, Thank you If you.

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Speaker 4: Ever want our platform, just reach out please and come

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Speaker 4: on anytime.

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Speaker 2: There's at least thirty people would listen to us.

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Speaker 3: No, I just want like free barbecue invites for the

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Speaker 3: rest of the year.

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Speaker 1: Down you can come to family dinner whenever you're like.

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Speaker 2: What you're hearing. Find us on Instagram and Facebook search

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Speaker 2: Will and Woody