1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date. This 6 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: episode is another my favorite Tip episode. The title's probably 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: pretty self explanatory. It's about my favorite tip from each 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: of the interviews I conduct. So my guest today is 9 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: Simon Coronel. Simon was originally an IT consultant working at 10 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: Accentia in Melbourne, but he quit his day job, so 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: to speak, several years ago to become a full time magician. 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: Simon is now based in la and is the winner 13 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: of more than a dozen international awards, including two separate 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 1: prizes at the FSM World Championships of Magic and Illusion, 15 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: which I'm told is like the Olympics of Magic, and 16 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: has also appeared on Penn and Teller's TV show for US, 17 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: where he did in fact managed to full Pen and Teller, 18 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: which is very cool. Simon is also one of the 19 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: few Australians to be regularly invited to perform at the 20 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: world famous Academy of Magical Arts in Hollywood. So I've 21 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: known Simon for over a decade, and we actually met 22 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: because my parents saw him perform at a magic show 23 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: and were so impressed with his performance they decided to 24 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: get his email after the show and suggest that we 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: meet up because we both studied psychology, which I know, 26 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: slightly random. Anyway, we have been friends ever since, so 27 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: thanks Mom and Dad. In this extract, we talk about 28 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: the way Simon thinks about audience feedback and some very 29 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: interesting methods he has for obtaining it. And even though 30 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: Simon is a magician and you're probably, you know, thinking 31 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: what are the parallels to my life if I'm not 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: a magician, I actually think that there were so many 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: parallels in the full interview that I did with Simon, 34 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: And this is just one extract that I think you'll 35 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: hopefully find pretty useful. 36 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: Well, this is the thing that I A big thing 37 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: that I personally am a proponent of. I have this 38 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 2: whole I have a website and a sort of a 39 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: short book that I made for the magic industry called 40 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 2: the Institute of Audience Studies, which is which is a 41 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 2: semi facetious, like half silly, half serious title of because 42 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: one thing that isn't a really big part of magic 43 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 2: culture is actually really asking the audience what did you 44 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: actually really think? And in magic it's almost it's considered 45 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: taboo to ask people if they think if they know 46 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: how it was done, and the conventional bad wisdom on that, 47 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 2: the conventional not wisdom is I mean, there's a bit 48 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: of it. Don't ask a question you don't want to 49 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: hear the answer to. So it's like, if you ask 50 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: them how they think it was done and they figured out, 51 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 2: they'll tell you and then that ruins it. But to me, 52 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 2: if they have figured out how it's done, you need 53 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: to know that because you need to fix that and 54 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: make that better. So you have to risk the unpleasant 55 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: answer go into the valley of death to find the treasure. 56 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 2: So I have this whole set of systems about ways 57 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 2: to survey audience members both formally and informally, verbally and 58 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 2: on questionnaires to really try and get inside what they're experiencing. 59 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 2: So you're asking them a first of all, did the 60 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: illusion work? Were you amazed? Did you experience a sense 61 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: of something that seemed impossible? And hence the wow factor. 62 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: Is that, like zeb byner is that yes, no. 63 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: Oh no, it's a sliding scale degree. It's absolutely a degree, 64 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: and there's no real There are a few kind of 65 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: breakpoints that where you sort of draw a line on 66 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 2: that spectrum, and the biggest one is just there's sort 67 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: of this gets very blurry. But the best case, purely 68 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: in terms of deceptiveness of the illusion, right, let's before 69 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: we get to entertainment and comedy and intrigue and personal 70 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: connection and rapport and all those things that matter about 71 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: a show, is best case is they have absolutely no 72 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: idea and it looked absolutely impossible. It's that sense of 73 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: what the hell did just happened to physics and reality? 74 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: That's what you're really going for. Ideally, a back of 75 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: it from that is they can sort of maybe. The 76 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: question I always ask is, if you offered a million dollars, 77 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: if you can guess how it was done. This is 78 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 2: if someone goes, I've got no idea, no clue. Sometimes 79 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 2: they're being polite and you need to check for that 80 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: because they might think you just don't want to hear it. 81 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 2: I'll give you a million dollars if you can get 82 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: I'm not But if you offer a million dollars to guess, 83 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 2: and you have to take a guess. So sometimes they'll go, oh, 84 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 2: maybe there was a second card under the seat or something, 85 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 2: and you can tell that they're just floundering for something. 86 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 2: They don't actually seriously have that as a guess, but 87 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: they can come up with something. It's a little bit 88 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 2: less amazed, right because now they've got maybe a guess. 89 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: That's a great question. 90 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: I like that, And because it's a lot of it 91 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: is how to break through people's politeness because people are 92 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: not used to people being good at taking feedback, let 93 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 2: alone being actively desiring the feedback. So I've come with 94 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: lots of unverbal techniques to kind of get through that. 95 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 3: So how else do you break through people's politeness? 96 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 2: One that I play with I don't do this much now, 97 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,560 Speaker 2: but again, if in doubt experiment with things was going 98 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: actually getting out a little stack of dollar coins, actually 99 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: putting them on the table and going, I'll give you 100 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 2: a dollar for every criticism you can make about the show, 101 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 2: every bad thing you can think of in any way 102 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: on any level. Start going just as sort of more 103 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 2: as an object. Listen to kind of make the point 104 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 2: that I am willing to pay for negative feedback, like 105 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 2: that's how much I actually want the constructive criticism, that's 106 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: all I say things like that, but that over the years, 107 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,119 Speaker 2: that question of okay for a million dollars if someone 108 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 2: offered you to try and guess the method, but the 109 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 2: and that kind of breaks through them realizing, oh, okay, 110 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 2: this person is okay with criticism. Then you can ask 111 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 2: the things like anything else about the show that was weird? 112 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: Was anything distracting? Was anything offensive? Was did anything not 113 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 2: make sense? And that's where I've got feedback, like things 114 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 2: how someone was distracted that my shoes weren't polished. And 115 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 2: that's the thing. Things like that mattered just as much 116 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: as the magic, because everything in the show is part 117 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 2: of the show. And it's the same in any business, 118 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: any product, everything is part of it. Your packaging is 119 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: part of the product, your delivery is part of the product. 120 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: You know, your demeanor is part of the product. Everything 121 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 2: is part of the overall experience the person has when 122 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: they engage with you or your business or your service 123 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: or whatever. All of it matters, not just the core thing. 124 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 3: How do you know when a trick is ready to perform? 125 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 2: You don't? You kind of have to just eventually suck 126 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: it and see bite the bullet, jump off the cliff. 127 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 2: You sort of get it. You get a sense over time, 128 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 2: that's a thing that experience gives you that. And I'm 129 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 2: usually much more willing than most people in my industry 130 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: to kind of take a risk on something unplanned. I 131 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: have this theory that I find is useful for me 132 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: for unlocking creativity and risk taking. Is of all the lines. 133 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 2: If you could, you can't. But for the sake of argument, 134 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 2: boil down the quality of a performance to a single 135 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 2: linear scale, and you can't. It's very multi dimensional. But 136 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 2: just how good was this experience for the audience? And 137 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 2: again not how good is the show or how goes 138 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: the trick? How good is the experience the audience had, 139 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: because that's what actually matters above everything, and at the 140 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 2: top is this is the best thing all of them 141 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 2: have ever seen in their entire lives. There's nothing. Birth 142 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: of their first child was not as good as this show, 143 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: like the best possible show you could have. And the 144 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: bottom is this was worse than genocide, like it's the 145 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: worst show. It was so bad. So you have the 146 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: extreme scale, and along that there are these there are 147 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: many thresholds on that scale, and just below the best 148 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 2: is it's the best thing for nearly everyone, or it's 149 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: the second best thing. And there's an infinite number of lines, 150 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: and the two lines I think about the most personally, 151 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 2: I aim at the one where it's one of the 152 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 2: best things they've ever seen in their life in show 153 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: business entertainment. I aim at that, and so far I 154 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: don't think I've ever hit. I might have come close 155 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: to it for a couple of people subjectively here and there, 156 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,559 Speaker 2: with a couple of shows, but I aim at that. 157 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,119 Speaker 2: That's the standard I'm shooting for and striving for, and 158 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: I'll keep working hard until I can hit that, and 159 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: I probably never will. I think of it as an asymptote, 160 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 2: but that's where you aim. But I'm willing to take 161 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: risks and let it all hang out out down to 162 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: but not below the line when no one in the 163 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: audience felt like they wasted their time or their money. Now, 164 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: that's a pretty low bar, but many shows do not 165 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: cross that bar. We've all seen shows that did not 166 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: cross that bar. Why this was not worth my twenty 167 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: bucks or my hour of my life. And if I 168 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: ever below that line, then my karma is out of 169 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: whack and I should feel bad and I should beat 170 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 2: myself up. But down to that line, I willing to 171 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: try things out and take risks and see if an 172 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: experiment with crazy things. 173 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: I like that. 174 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 3: I really like the idea of putting labels on what 175 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 3: is a likeher scale based scale of one to five, 176 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 3: which normally quite dull, and if someone picks four out 177 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: of five, ye often I really know what they mean. 178 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: Hello there me again. Sorry. This chat completely made me 179 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: think about paying people for negative feedback. I haven't done 180 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: it yet, at least at the time of recording this, 181 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: but it's definitely an idea that's stuck with me and 182 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: I'm looking for an opportunity to implement it. So that's 183 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: it for today. If you like this exeritt, you might 184 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: want to listen to my full chat with Simon, which 185 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: I link to in the show notes. And if you're 186 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: enjoying how I work, why not tell somebody else about 187 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 1: it that you think could benefit So word of mouth 188 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: is one of the big ways that this show has 189 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: grown very considerably, So thank you if you've been recommending it, 190 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: and if you haven't, maybe you might want to do 191 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: that today. Who knows, so that is it for today 192 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: and I will see you next time.