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Speaker 1: Already and this this is the Daily h this is

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Speaker 1: the Daily ODS. Oh now it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Friday,

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Speaker 2: the twenty eighth of March. I'm Emma Gillespie.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara Seidler, a new.

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Speaker 2: Netflix show has shocked and captivated audiences around the world

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Speaker 2: over the last week, and it's reignited conversations around in

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Speaker 2: cell culture, social media, and gendered violence. Adolescence is a

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Speaker 2: four part series that tells the fictional story of a

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Speaker 2: thirteen year old boy called Jamie who's arrested following the

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Speaker 2: murder of his schoolmate, a fourteen year old girl named Katie.

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Speaker 3: M I watched this series literally one go. I could

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Speaker 3: not look away. It was so captivating, And when you

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Speaker 3: learn that it was shot in one take, it just

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Speaker 3: makes it even more unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's got all.

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Speaker 2: Of this kind of critical and technical acclaim because those EPISO,

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Speaker 2: so it's a shot in one take, they unfold in

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Speaker 2: real time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And then, of course you know, there is, as

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Speaker 3: you said, that technical side, But then there's the story itself,

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Speaker 3: and it's the journey of this unbelievable actor playing a

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Speaker 3: young kid Jamie who goes from a seemingly innocent young

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Speaker 3: child to a radicalized inceel. That has started new conversations,

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Speaker 3: not just in our office, not just you know, in Australia,

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Speaker 3: but around the world about things like online safety and

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Speaker 3: gender roles.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a really interesting conversation, and so we

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Speaker 2: wanted to understand a little bit more about that world

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Speaker 2: that Adolescence portrays. So I'm bringing in an expert for

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Speaker 2: this one to find out how accurate the show is.

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Speaker 2: We are talking to academic and social sciences expert, doctor

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Speaker 2: Anthony Collins, who works on issues of violence, gender and

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Speaker 2: cultural studies, and Anthony Collins joins us Now welcome to

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Speaker 2: the podcast.

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Speaker 4: Hi, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Everyone is talking about this Netflix series Adolescence. Is it

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Speaker 2: an accurate reflection of in cell culture and online bullying

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Speaker 2: when we're talking about a twenty twenty five context.

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Speaker 4: Firstly, I'm a little bit surprised that everyone is talking

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Speaker 4: about insult culture in relation to the series, because I

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Speaker 4: think it's an interesting cultural moment that what jumped out

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Speaker 4: at people was this idea of insult culture, which is

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Speaker 4: barely referenced in fact when you look at the series.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's relevant. But there's one mention of Andrew Tait,

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Speaker 4: and there's maybe I can't remember two or three mentions

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Speaker 4: of insul culture throughout the series. But there's something in

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Speaker 4: the historical moment that when people watching that and hearing

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Speaker 4: those trigger words like Andrew Tait insul are like, oh,

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Speaker 4: that's what this is really about. For instance, if you

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Speaker 4: just read the script, you may not think that this

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Speaker 4: is really about it because it doesn't get into the

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Speaker 4: substance of it. It doesn't do a dive into the

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Speaker 4: online world of insult culture, how people get into it,

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Speaker 4: who's saying what there? And insult culture almost becomes this

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Speaker 4: kind of black box to explain how you've got this

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Speaker 4: absolute terrib faced little kid. And the next thing is like,

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Speaker 4: oh no, he went from being an innocent little child

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Speaker 4: to possibly a murderer who knows it does the work

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Speaker 4: of saying that it's an explanation without actually explaining, And

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Speaker 4: I think that's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: I think it kind of speaks to this fear that

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Speaker 2: we have online in schools across parenting, the unseid of

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Speaker 2: that show and what we don't see and what we

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Speaker 2: don't learn about in cell culture. But this kind of

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Speaker 2: outcome at the end of this horrifically violent crime.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's really important context. And I think

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Speaker 4: the way you identify that anxiety, it's like, my little

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Speaker 4: boy could be a monster because of things I don't

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Speaker 4: understand that are happening out there. And I wonder whether

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Speaker 4: parents are more freaked out by this show than kids are,

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Speaker 4: given that.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't go deep on that in cell culture context.

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Speaker 2: How would you define in cell culture? Where did it

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Speaker 2: come from? What does this all really mean?

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Speaker 4: One of the most interesting things the word insul was

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Speaker 4: not coined by an insult. It was coined by a

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Speaker 4: feminist to describe herself. It was like used by kind

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Speaker 4: of a woman thinking critically about gender to describe her

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Speaker 4: own experience, which is the experience of being kind of

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Speaker 4: on the outside, outside of the world of relationships and sexuality,

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Speaker 4: and the kind of feeling of being like socially rejected,

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Speaker 4: socially marginalized, and this recognition that some people feel like

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Speaker 4: that they're just not part of a social system that

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Speaker 4: is specifically portrayed in the media as being the way

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Speaker 4: to happiness, love, sex, all of that, that's how you

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Speaker 4: get happy, and that many people feel radically on the

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Speaker 4: outside of that. And what's so interesting to me is

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Speaker 4: that insult cultures is like alienated men talking about themselves

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Speaker 4: using concepts that they have taken from feminism and just

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Speaker 4: turn them upside down. So all of those kind of

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Speaker 4: cultural problems of the transition from girlhood to womanhood suddenly

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Speaker 4: get rewritten to describe the crisis of masculinity that these

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Speaker 4: young boys are being put into a world where they

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Speaker 4: expected to aspire to an idea of masculinity. They expected

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Speaker 4: to be super buff, they expected to be rich and

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Speaker 4: drive fast cars and to have a kind of social

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Speaker 4: power like that have an authority in society, and if

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Speaker 4: they don't have that, then they are kind of losers.

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Speaker 4: They feel excluded from literally the dream of happiness as

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Speaker 4: people in the society. And that's a kind of a

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Speaker 4: radical exclusion for people who feel and also the fact

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Speaker 4: that it's really hard being a teenager, that feeling of

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Speaker 4: like you're growing up, you don't know who you are.

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Speaker 4: Shit is weird around, you don't fully understand. But people

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Speaker 4: are kind of being mean. And what comes along for

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Speaker 4: people who are doing that, particularly for young people, and

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Speaker 4: I radically online that their social interactions are not primarily

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Speaker 4: with people. They're primarily in the virtual domain. And into

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Speaker 4: this gap, into this terrible space, comes the story that

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Speaker 4: is being actively aggressively sold into young people's news feeds

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Speaker 4: of a certain version of the crisis of masculinity. And

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Speaker 4: it's being sold by, on the one hand, kind of

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Speaker 4: insult influences from the respectable face like Jordan Peterson through

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Speaker 4: to the pariah face like Andrew Tate. Like Andrew Tate

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Speaker 4: is like the bogey man under the bed in this

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Speaker 4: whole kind of culture. But it's also being aggressively sold by,

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Speaker 4: in fact, a much bigger network, which is the whole

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Speaker 4: rise of conservative political power, the culture wars, you know,

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Speaker 4: like men aren't allowed to be men anymore. The woke

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Speaker 4: mind virus has made it impossible to tell a joke.

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Speaker 4: What is essentially a kind of conservative discourse that is

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Speaker 4: meant to master up support for something that otherwise has

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Speaker 4: no rational justification for its support.

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Speaker 2: So these culture wars, I'm really interested in understanding born

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Speaker 2: out of these culture wars, we have alienated groups of

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Speaker 2: young people. We're talking about young men in those awful

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Speaker 2: teen years, and that somehow they are being targeted by

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Speaker 2: these radical influences. But that is tied into to an algorithm. Right,

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Speaker 2: what yes, what is the role of the algorithm because

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Speaker 2: that's a uniquely contemporary context.

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Speaker 4: The algorithms are controlled, right, I mean, on the one hand,

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Speaker 4: it's supposed to be like you like something, you get

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Speaker 4: more of it, so you controlling it, but it's also

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Speaker 4: being deliberately manipulated, and that manipulation is being paid for.

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Speaker 4: So what we see is is someone like Andrew Tate

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Speaker 4: is enormously wealthy because he makes money out of the algorithms,

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Speaker 4: and he invests some of that money back into the algorithms,

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Speaker 4: similarly with all of them, but there's also huge politics

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Speaker 4: behind this. Elon Musk is the most powerful algorithm manipulator

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Speaker 4: on Earth at the moment. They don't make the alienation.

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Speaker 4: They walk into the space created by the feelings of

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Speaker 4: alienation and they write it into a story to say, well,

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Speaker 4: what's gone wrong with you is that man hating feminists

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Speaker 4: have tried to destroy your place in the world to

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Speaker 4: try and make sure you will that you will always

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Speaker 4: be treated with contempt and society and so you should

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Speaker 4: be angry with them. So it's a way of misrepresenting

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Speaker 4: reality in order to incite anger and that is the

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Speaker 4: danger within in cul culture is it starts with the

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Speaker 4: existing feelings of alienation, but it takes people into a

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Speaker 4: paranoid universe. They feel bad because they are being persecuted,

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Speaker 4: and that is where the risk is.

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Speaker 2: Something so shocking about adolescence this Netflix program, though, is

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Speaker 2: that it tracks this journey of alienation for someone.

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Speaker 1: So so young.

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Speaker 2: And we've heard mainstream conversations about the dangers of in

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Speaker 2: cell culture and the likes of Andrew Tait, But I

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Speaker 2: think maybe the person that we're imagining is being influenced

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Speaker 2: on the other side of that is a much older person.

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Speaker 2: Did it strike you the age of the character at

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Speaker 2: the heart of this and is that a realistic narrative?

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Speaker 4: Yes? I was struck by that, and it is absolutely unrealistic.

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Speaker 4: Thirteen year olds are not running around murdering people, statistically

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Speaker 4: killing other people around eighteen, and they did until they're

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Speaker 4: about twenty seven. It's really interesting men men are doing

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Speaker 4: the murdering, and they're doing it from young adulthood to

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Speaker 4: early mid adulthood.

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Speaker 1: But are there foundations that are being laid at there.

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Speaker 4: Yes, the foundations are being laid there. But also the

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Speaker 4: use of the thirteen year old child, and not just

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Speaker 4: any thirteen year old child. This was not like basement

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Speaker 4: dwelling slub of insult fantasies. This was a boy who

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Speaker 4: you know, but it wouldn't melt in his mouth. And

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Speaker 4: this is just creating the drama, creating the sentimentality to

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Speaker 4: enhance the shock feeling. It's purely for the television narrative.

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Speaker 4: It's not about describing reality. But if it was, you know,

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Speaker 4: acne faced, overweight, seventeen year old, then we wouldn't be

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Speaker 4: having this interview.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was going to ask you, do we need

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Speaker 1: to be shocked?

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Speaker 2: Are you worried that there's maybe these obscure dark corners

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Speaker 2: of the internet, the way that we speak about them,

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Speaker 2: these online conversations, that maybe they are more prevalent and

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Speaker 2: more mainstream than many of us. Realizing that this show

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Speaker 2: might be aiming to kind of shock us into that realization.

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Speaker 4: I'll differentiate. I don't think we need to be shocked.

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Speaker 4: I think we need to be worried. I think we

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Speaker 4: need to be very worried. And what I'm differentiating there

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Speaker 4: is if we're shocked, then we will be shocked for

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Speaker 4: forty eight hours, seventy two hours we will have some interviews,

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Speaker 4: it will trend, and then next week it'll be forgotten,

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Speaker 4: because that's just moral panics rising and falling in society.

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Speaker 4: We need to be worried by which I mean we

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Speaker 4: need to be thinking about this all the time because

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Speaker 4: it's much more serious than it's being depicted. Yeah, it

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Speaker 4: is absolutely apocalyptically, catastrophically serious, and we need to be

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Speaker 4: thinking about that because when we're shocked, we do dramatic,

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Speaker 4: irrational stuff like than the Internet. But when we worry,

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Speaker 4: then we do what people like me are supposed to do.

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Speaker 4: We do research. We say, well, what's really going on.

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Speaker 4: We're really going to talk to a lot of kids

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Speaker 4: in depth a lot of time. We understand what's going on,

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Speaker 4: and then we think it through and say, look, we

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Speaker 4: need to do this, so we don't need to do

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Speaker 4: it in the mode of freaking out. We need to

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Speaker 4: do it in the mode of thoughtfulness. So, yes, we

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Speaker 4: need to be extremely concerned about infesol culture. It's much

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Speaker 4: worse than you think. It's much worse than it's portrayed

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Speaker 4: in adolescence. But we need to re orient ourselves towards

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Speaker 4: it so that we're not just freaking out and clutching

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Speaker 4: at straws. This is a comprehensible thing. It can be understood,

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Speaker 4: it can be responded to. It must be understood and

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Speaker 4: responded to in.

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Speaker 2: Orienting ourselves towards responding towards that action over outrage that

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Speaker 2: you've described.

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Speaker 1: What is a role of communication here?

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Speaker 2: How important is two way communication between adults and young people?

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Speaker 1: Because I guess this show tells us.

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Speaker 2: That there is this relationship between teenagers and their parents

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Speaker 2: that is disconnected from the realities of those young people.

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Speaker 1: You know, in adolescence.

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Speaker 2: We have a suburban life, this family, this everyday typical

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Speaker 2: nuclear family, This nice, hardworking mum and dad who have

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Speaker 2: no idea what's going on in their kids room behind

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Speaker 2: closed doors at night time.

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Speaker 1: Is that a big problem.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure it's a big problem. The question is is

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Speaker 4: it a new problem? Has there ever been a point

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Speaker 4: in the history of Western societies where teenagers and their

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Speaker 4: parents who were having long, heartfelt conversations about the personal

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Speaker 4: details of their lives, and teenagers were not like sighing

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Speaker 4: or rolling their eyes just be cringed out by their

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Speaker 4: parents and wanting to be the opposite of them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but there was a common thread in.

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Speaker 2: I suppose the lived experiences of tin across generations, that insecurity,

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Speaker 2: that young budding romance, puberty, all of the rest. But

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Speaker 2: now we have this new context of this online radicalization

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Speaker 2: that a generation of parents hasn't lived through.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and in the nineteen fifties teenagers were listening to

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Speaker 4: rock and roll and their parents were freaking out. This

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Speaker 4: is not a new story. This part of shaping your identity,

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Speaker 4: part of getting into that stage where like, I'm not

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Speaker 4: a child anymore. I'm going to experiment with being an

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Speaker 4: autonomous human being, and part of that is experimenting with

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Speaker 4: what I was told not to do. Now it is

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Speaker 4: organized in a particular way. Okay, it is organized by

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Speaker 4: the algorithms. That's the only thing that's new. The process

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Speaker 4: is old, the technology is new. So now Andrew Tate,

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Speaker 4: who no one should know his name, but now every

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Speaker 4: young boy in the world knows who he is. That's

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Speaker 4: what's new. And there is this kind of generational feel like, well,

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Speaker 4: we don't know what's happening on the internet, but they've

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Speaker 4: never known what's happening. They've never known what is happening

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Speaker 4: when their kids were smoking indeed, but.

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Speaker 2: Did smoking weed and listening to rock and roll make

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Speaker 2: outcomes worse for women? Did listening to rock and roll

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Speaker 2: increase gender based violence the likes of I suppose that

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Speaker 2: there are more sinister outcomes? Maybe exactly when we're talking about.

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Speaker 4: This, this intel culture increases violence against women. That's a

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Speaker 4: thing that it does. What's different now is that the

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Speaker 4: idea of it being a gender war is now explicitly articulated.

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Speaker 4: It's like, you are being undermined by women, you must

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Speaker 4: take your revenge on them. That is a new and

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Speaker 4: appalling idea that needs to be looked at, but it's

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Speaker 4: also part of a broader set of ideas. And so

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Speaker 4: if you watch what's happening in US politics at the moment,

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Speaker 4: a whole lot of things being promoted, Like a whole

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Speaker 4: lot of forms of bullying and hatred are being promoted.

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Speaker 4: There's a whole new normalization of racism and racist violence.

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Speaker 4: There's a whole new normalization of xenophobia. These are multiple

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Speaker 4: forms of hatred and legitimation of violence that are going on.

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Speaker 4: Violence against women is one of them, and it's all

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Speaker 4: part of a weird nostalgia for a time when men

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Speaker 4: ran the world, and there's terrible anxiety that they have

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Speaker 4: that that era may be starting to be over and

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Speaker 4: they can't cope. So hidden in this is also a

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Speaker 4: story of things getting much better and people being elder

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Speaker 4: say they can actually talk about gender now, They can

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Speaker 4: actually say, well, we can talk about how masculinity is

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Speaker 4: being constructed. That language didn't exist two generations ago, and

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Speaker 4: those acts of violence were being completely and utterly covered

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Speaker 4: up and hidden so that people who experience against that

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Speaker 4: stuff were like ashamed. It was not in the media.

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Speaker 4: Now it is. That's actually really good. So insult culture

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Speaker 4: it's doing a work of saying, well, you should treat

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Speaker 4: women like this, you should treat women with contempt. If

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Speaker 4: you don't feel like you're dominating women, then you are

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Speaker 4: failing as a man. That's new that all it's doing

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Speaker 4: is trying to reinstate something that used to be there,

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Speaker 4: which they feel like was lost. So when insult culture

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Speaker 4: says you need to have you know, you need to

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Speaker 4: control your women, it's literally saying what generations before always said,

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Speaker 4: but then got told hey, stop doing that, and it

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Speaker 4: became less legitimate to say for men to talk about

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Speaker 4: women in that way, and that they started feeling a

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Speaker 4: bit nostalgic about that, and so insult culture is bringing

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Speaker 4: it back. So in a sense, it's the swing of

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Speaker 4: the pendulum from the heyday of gender equality to the

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Speaker 4: beautiful days of the nineteen fifties when everyone knew their place.

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Speaker 2: So what needs to change. We don't want this moral

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Speaker 2: panic and culture of outrage. We want to understand thoughtfully

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Speaker 2: what's going on. But how do we reduce the influence

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Speaker 2: or the appeal of in cell culture for young men?

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Speaker 2: How do we create safest baces online? Recognizing that young

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Speaker 2: people are going to be online, they are going to

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Speaker 2: find social media, they are going to find these communities,

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Speaker 2: and their parents won't know about them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the hard work. That's the hard job. That's

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Speaker 4: the job for which there's no little platitude like five

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Speaker 4: point plan. If we do this, it'll be fine. Sixteen

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Speaker 4: year olds off the internet, you know, talk to your kids. Yes,

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Speaker 4: that's all true, but it's a bit trite. What we've

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Speaker 4: got to do is, yes, we've got to give kids

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Speaker 4: ways of knowing what they're feeling. And that's one of

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Speaker 4: the things that's been getting really better and better compared

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Speaker 4: to my generation, that kids have got to be able

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Speaker 4: to express things, communicate things, but also they have to

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Speaker 4: be able to think critically so that when lack Andrew

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Speaker 4: Tates starts telling them something, they've got to be like,

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Speaker 4: what's that really about? What's it going to do if

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Speaker 4: I follow this thing, if I joined this cult, if

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Speaker 4: I follow these influences, what's it going to do to me?

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Speaker 4: For me be able to think about that, to be literate,

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Speaker 4: be critically literate of their world, their media, their social interactions.

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Speaker 4: And what's so interesting if you look at the United

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Speaker 4: States and at the moment, they're deliberately shutting that down.

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Speaker 4: They're literally banning teachers from teaching about how to understand

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Speaker 4: your world. You're literally not allowed to talk about these things.

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Speaker 4: And that's deliberate. They're deliberately removing the conditions for people

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Speaker 4: to understand what's happening to them. And the big thing

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Speaker 4: is to support people, not only young boys, to support

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Speaker 4: people in moments of vulnerability. This whole problem starts at

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Speaker 4: a particular point, the idea that when adolescent boys feel vulnerable,

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Speaker 4: the aspirational idea of masculinity that is forced on them

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Speaker 4: is that they may not show that vulnerability, that if

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Speaker 4: they show that vulnerability, they become contemptible. If that could

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Speaker 4: be dismantled in soul culture would simply evaporate. They would

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Speaker 4: have no reason to exist. How to do that complicated, tricky,

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Speaker 4: long above all along ongoing process. But the terrible thing

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Speaker 4: we've done by associating aspirational masculinity with the absence of

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Speaker 4: vulnerability is an apocalyptic catastrophe.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Anthony Collins, thank you so much for coming on

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Speaker 2: the podcast today sharing your expertise.

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Speaker 1: I think you've given all of us plenty to think about.

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Speaker 4: Great Thanks for having me. Thanks for the chat. I

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Speaker 4: think it's an important topic. We should be thinking about it.

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Speaker 4: We shouldn't be freaking out about it, we should be

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Speaker 4: thinking about it.

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Speaker 3: Such an interesting conversation and really valuable to hear some

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Speaker 3: of that kind of expert analysis and input into a

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Speaker 3: conversation that is playing out in so many different spaces.

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Speaker 3: So really really helpful podcast there, and that wraps up

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Speaker 3: another week of the Dally os podcast. Thank you so

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Speaker 3: much for tuning in each and every day. It's been

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Speaker 3: our biggest month ever of podcasts and we could be prouder.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for making that possible. We will be, of

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Speaker 3: course back later today with the headlines. But until then,

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Speaker 3: enjoy your day.

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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Cargottin woman from Gadigol Country.

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Speaker 4: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 4: the lands of the Gadigol people and pays respect to

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Speaker 4: all all Aboriginal and torrest rate island and nations.

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Speaker 2: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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Speaker 2: both past and present.