1
00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:02,920
Speaker 1: Now you will know if you listen to the show regularly.

2
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,080
Speaker 2: There have been a few occasions where we've spoken to

3
00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:09,760
Speaker 2: territorians who've had concerns about the way in which they've

4
00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,320
Speaker 2: been able to get their funding and support through the NDIS,

5
00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,759
Speaker 2: and it does seem as though it can be quite

6
00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,360
Speaker 2: a difficult process for a lot of territorians. And then

7
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,400
Speaker 2: when the point comes where maybe they have their plans approved,

8
00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 2: they're missing different parts or it maybe doesn't go as

9
00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,240
Speaker 2: far as what they'd initially hoped. And is there a

10
00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,239
Speaker 2: process then that they can go through to try and

11
00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,640
Speaker 2: get support. Is there somebody out there who's advocating for them,

12
00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,600
Speaker 2: and what can they do? I suppose now joining me

13
00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:44,000
Speaker 2: in the studio right now is the Darwin Community Legal Service, Well,

14
00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,920
Speaker 2: Judy Harrison, who is indeed the principal solicitor. Good morning

15
00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,360
Speaker 2: to you, Judy. There you go, yeah, good, Thanks so

16
00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,360
Speaker 2: much for joining us in the studio. And then we've

17
00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,080
Speaker 2: also got Jessica Brugman's I apologize Jessica if I've pronounced

18
00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,720
Speaker 2: your surname correctly, Please correct me if I need to be.

19
00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,680
Speaker 2: The senior advocates with Seeingers and Disability Rights Service. Thank

20
00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:05,680
Speaker 2: you so much for your time this morning.

21
00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:07,080
Speaker 3: And that was pretty close.

22
00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:09,360
Speaker 1: Thank you. Always try my best.

23
00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,160
Speaker 2: Now we know that the Darwin Community Legal Service, the

24
00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,360
Speaker 2: disability advocacy services in Alice Springs and also obviously right

25
00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:21,039
Speaker 2: around the territory here in Darwin too. You know, I'm

26
00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,119
Speaker 2: assuming that you do deal a lot with different territories

27
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,520
Speaker 2: who've been impacted in different ways when it comes to

28
00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,640
Speaker 2: the NDS and some of the concerns I suppose that

29
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:36,240
Speaker 2: they have in terms of accessing that support, that should

30
00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,520
Speaker 2: be quite an easy process, but maybe isn't as.

31
00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,360
Speaker 1: Easy as it should be Jessica.

32
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely, that's right. So we provide advocacy supports,

33
00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,040
Speaker 3: so that's specialist advocates that help people disability with any

34
00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,960
Speaker 3: excess planning and also reviews. Yeah, and then we also

35
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,080
Speaker 3: have a legal service that can help people when, as

36
00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,440
Speaker 3: you say, there's decisions and plans are impacted and they

37
00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,960
Speaker 3: evolve into an appeal. So we're seeing a huge demount

38
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,880
Speaker 3: of people and changes have been made to their plans,

39
00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,160
Speaker 3: funding has been cut, often with no real obvious reason,

40
00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:09,840
Speaker 3: and then people get stuck in a really long drawn

41
00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,480
Speaker 3: out process and that's where we try and assist. But yeah,

42
00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,480
Speaker 3: as you said, we're just seeing a really big increase

43
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:16,160
Speaker 3: in that.

44
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,239
Speaker 2: That must be really hard, you know, because ultimately we're

45
00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,880
Speaker 2: talking about people who are trying to access a program

46
00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,440
Speaker 2: that is that's meant to be created to help them.

47
00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:29,400
Speaker 2: So then when they're going through that process and there's

48
00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,160
Speaker 2: been a cush or there have been you know, it

49
00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:33,040
Speaker 2: maybe doesn't.

50
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,119
Speaker 1: Go as far as what is required, I would.

51
00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,760
Speaker 2: Assume that it has a massive impact on them duty

52
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,080
Speaker 2: and it'll be quite difficult trying to navigate all of that.

53
00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, Katie, I imagine that quite a few people

54
00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,000
Speaker 4: that are listening to you that have got some experience

55
00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,200
Speaker 4: of the NDIS, which might be their own experience, or

56
00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,600
Speaker 4: it might be a family member or somebody that they

57
00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:58,560
Speaker 4: care for, know exactly the kinds of problems that are happening,

58
00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,480
Speaker 4: and if those problems are not happening to them at

59
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,639
Speaker 4: the moment, they're probably hearing about those problems. So although

60
00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,840
Speaker 4: the scheme is meant to help, and it does provide

61
00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 4: a lot of help, there really are serious problems at

62
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,359
Speaker 4: this stage, and the problems are amplified in the Northern

63
00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,640
Speaker 4: Territory for lots of reasons, but including remoteness and the

64
00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,720
Speaker 4: special services that people do need.

65
00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,120
Speaker 2: What are some of the firstly, what are some of

66
00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,480
Speaker 2: the problems that people are experiencing at the moment.

67
00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,360
Speaker 3: So we're seeing people who may have quite a stable

68
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,880
Speaker 3: NIS plan for quite a long time. Now they go

69
00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,120
Speaker 3: through a regular scheduled review process and then suddenly they're

70
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,040
Speaker 3: seeing their funding cut, often quite dramatically. We've had clients

71
00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,800
Speaker 3: where it's been twenty fifty percent or sixty percent of

72
00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,760
Speaker 3: their support packages and then suddenly they are having to

73
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,360
Speaker 3: prove again that they do need their supports while also

74
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 3: dealing with the fact that those supports are no longer

75
00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,120
Speaker 3: funded at that time. And it's a massive burden both

76
00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,120
Speaker 3: in administration, collating evidence, paying for reports, and again here

77
00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,440
Speaker 3: because in the territory we don't have that many specialists

78
00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:01,640
Speaker 3: or ellet help professionals, people end up in long wait

79
00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 3: times and that further just worsens the situation and it's.

80
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:06,720
Speaker 1: Just his really big delay.

81
00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,839
Speaker 3: So people are facing and getting supports that they need

82
00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,000
Speaker 3: for their daily life.

83
00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,200
Speaker 2: We caught up with one of our listeners a few

84
00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,120
Speaker 2: weeks ago, Macca, and he's in a wheelchair and he

85
00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,240
Speaker 2: had described to us, you know, some of the situations

86
00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,640
Speaker 2: that other territorians are going through right now, and he

87
00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:22,599
Speaker 2: had said that, you know, for some it means that

88
00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:24,520
Speaker 2: they don't have a care of go around over the

89
00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,200
Speaker 2: weekend to be able to check on them to see

90
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,880
Speaker 2: that they are okay, and that some of these cuts

91
00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,719
Speaker 2: are having a huge impact for you know, for people

92
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,320
Speaker 2: who could be listening this morning or family members listening

93
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,040
Speaker 2: this morning. So it does to me it seems like

94
00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:40,440
Speaker 2: it's it's a bigger issue than.

95
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:41,760
Speaker 1: What a lot of us might realize.

96
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, And that's exactly does impact. If someone loses

97
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,320
Speaker 3: CARES or cares hours, it might mean that they can't

98
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,920
Speaker 3: leave their house. In some extreme cases, it might mean

99
00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,880
Speaker 3: that they have to be admitted to a hospital because

100
00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,920
Speaker 3: they're no longer safe to be at home. It also

101
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,360
Speaker 3: leads to increased isolation because people are less likely to socialize.

102
00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,800
Speaker 3: So there's just really big immediate effects that are not

103
00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,600
Speaker 3: that easy to see from the outset.

104
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,440
Speaker 2: But then further adding to this is then trying to

105
00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,400
Speaker 2: access I would assume some support or justice for those

106
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,520
Speaker 2: people that are going through this situation.

107
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,320
Speaker 1: What can they do?

108
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,640
Speaker 4: So, as you can imagine, because this is a government scheme,

109
00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:29,880
Speaker 4: there are review processes and those review processes are in

110
00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:35,839
Speaker 4: the legislation and the process tells us what the criteria

111
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:41,000
Speaker 4: are and generally it tells us how the procedure is

112
00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:46,359
Speaker 4: supposed to operate. But what we're seeing is that there's

113
00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,440
Speaker 4: a high rate of plan cutting going on by the

114
00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:55,359
Speaker 4: NDIA in relation to the NT, which is out of

115
00:05:55,400 --> 00:06:00,440
Speaker 4: proportion to other jurisdictions. So the statistics which are public

116
00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,240
Speaker 4: which we watch say to us that the issues are

117
00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,560
Speaker 4: more severe in the Northern Territory. There's likely to be

118
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,760
Speaker 4: more people that need to seek a review of the

119
00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,720
Speaker 4: decision that's been made in their case. So initially they

120
00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:21,880
Speaker 4: can seek an internal review. We have people reporting and

121
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,320
Speaker 4: we're working with them, and so we're also seeing all

122
00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,479
Speaker 4: kinds of problems with that process. It's not sufficiently expert.

123
00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,800
Speaker 4: The decisions are often not fair, they haven't taken into

124
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:39,120
Speaker 4: account the material which is available, and so people feel

125
00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,960
Speaker 4: diminished by that process. So they feel angry often but

126
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,680
Speaker 4: also demeaned by the process. They have a right of

127
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,240
Speaker 4: appealing on further and that's to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal.

128
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:58,080
Speaker 4: So that's an independent external review mechanism which also deals

129
00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:03,040
Speaker 4: with other matters experiencing an enormous upsurge in appeals by

130
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:08,280
Speaker 4: NDS participants or people affected by NDS decisions. So they've

131
00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,239
Speaker 4: got a backlog and it's affecting their process and their responsiveness.

132
00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 4: So we are trying to continue support both advocacy support

133
00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,200
Speaker 4: and some legal assistance to people who need to proceed

134
00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:28,280
Speaker 4: into the aat Unfortunately we don't have enough resources. NT

135
00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,360
Speaker 4: Legal Aid did have resources, but as finding that the

136
00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,120
Speaker 4: amount that they received from the Department of Social Service

137
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,360
Speaker 4: to be completely inadequate to do the job. So they

138
00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:42,840
Speaker 4: advised us in February that they were going to cease

139
00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,400
Speaker 4: service because the funds were so inadequate and we don't

140
00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,640
Speaker 4: know whether that situation has been improved for the coming

141
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,400
Speaker 4: financial years. So there's actually a crisis in the Northern

142
00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:59,920
Speaker 4: Territory in relation to legal representation and advocacy support in AATP,

143
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,760
Speaker 4: and that's denying Territorians their rights and denying them at

144
00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,160
Speaker 4: a rate in excess of other jurisdiction. So we're in

145
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:09,200
Speaker 4: a really bad way.

146
00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,000
Speaker 2: And Judy, I would imagine that we are speaking about,

147
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,520
Speaker 2: you know, people who are in a vulnerable situation as well.

148
00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the things that we said previously, so when

149
00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 4: you add this to that situation. It's just so unacceptable.

150
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 4: It's so impossible to imagine that this could even happen,

151
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:31,440
Speaker 4: that there wasn't or hasn't been the planning, and once

152
00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 4: the problem is there, that there hasn't been an immediate,

153
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,600
Speaker 4: at least short term solution to avoid these people being

154
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:39,640
Speaker 4: the meat and the sandwich.

155
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:41,320
Speaker 1: What needs to happen here?

156
00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,800
Speaker 2: What do we need to see for those territorians that

157
00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:46,640
Speaker 2: are in this situation right now?

158
00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,280
Speaker 3: I think initially what we need is just more funding,

159
00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,959
Speaker 3: both for advocacy and also to ensure that there is

160
00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,760
Speaker 3: legal representation available for people who do go to the AAT,

161
00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,400
Speaker 3: and that would just be the first short term thing

162
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,280
Speaker 3: that needs to happen. But then beyond that, we've seen

163
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,840
Speaker 3: that there's never really been any kind of review into

164
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,160
Speaker 3: what this should look like, who should be funded, what

165
00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,560
Speaker 3: kind of funding is needed, and do that on a

166
00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,560
Speaker 3: based on the demands of the territory and not just

167
00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,800
Speaker 3: our population. So all of that should have to will

168
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:17,199
Speaker 3: have to occur in the long term to make sure

169
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,040
Speaker 3: that we don't end up in this situation again.

170
00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 2: Now, is this something I'm assuming that this is something

171
00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,320
Speaker 2: that's been raised with the Northern Territory government. Have you

172
00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,480
Speaker 2: had much feedback from them?

173
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,800
Speaker 4: I would say yes that there's been really good engagement

174
00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,520
Speaker 4: by the Northern Territory government and you would really expect

175
00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,040
Speaker 4: that because it crosses over so many different program areas,

176
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:44,240
Speaker 4: areas of responsibility, so it covers not only disability but

177
00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:50,640
Speaker 4: also health. It touches on education, gets us into women

178
00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:55,120
Speaker 4: and children and young people. Children who are in the

179
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:58,640
Speaker 4: care of territory families, some of them have indias plans

180
00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:02,360
Speaker 4: and some of those plans have cut. People who are

181
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:07,000
Speaker 4: looked after by the Officer of the Public Guardian some

182
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,120
Speaker 4: of those plans have been cut. So there's all a

183
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,079
Speaker 4: plethora of reasons why the Anti government is highly engaged

184
00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 4: in this issue. However, it's a Commonwealth funding responsibility and

185
00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:27,160
Speaker 4: the Northern Territory, I assume, has been really proactive in

186
00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,640
Speaker 4: trying to provide a solution. Maybe the current federal election,

187
00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:32,840
Speaker 4: in one way, is not a good time for this

188
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,440
Speaker 4: to be happening, So you would think, well, it could

189
00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,960
Speaker 4: be because maybe candidates and political parties would be responding

190
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,640
Speaker 4: to this issue. But the particular thing that we are

191
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:49,240
Speaker 4: talking about about ins appeals to the Administrative Appeals tribunal

192
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,720
Speaker 4: seems to be really stuck. So maybe the election happening

193
00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,320
Speaker 4: and we get to the other side of the election,

194
00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,080
Speaker 4: then everything's operating again and hopefully that can be an

195
00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,400
Speaker 4: immediate for the territory. It also has a flow on

196
00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:07,240
Speaker 4: effect on employment because when people's plans are can't the

197
00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,920
Speaker 4: people whose services they're contracting to provide the specialist assistance

198
00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,760
Speaker 4: that they need can't be paid. So we know of

199
00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,960
Speaker 4: service providers who have continued to work and consequently they're

200
00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:26,960
Speaker 4: carrying unpaid bills. And if that continues, then there's not

201
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,040
Speaker 4: going to be the workforce around to be providing the services.

202
00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,600
Speaker 4: So we've already got problems about that, so having this

203
00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,880
Speaker 4: happen on top of it is really an additional pick.

204
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,360
Speaker 4: And so we're really looking for a fast solution after

205
00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:45,480
Speaker 4: the election. So hopefully within a month of the new

206
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,559
Speaker 4: government forming this will be treated as a priority issue,

207
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,480
Speaker 4: will have a solution for this aspect of the problem

208
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:52,439
Speaker 4: in the territory.

209
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,760
Speaker 2: Well, please keep us up today with how things go.

210
00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,720
Speaker 2: I think it's really important that territorians are aware of

211
00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,720
Speaker 2: what's going on, and I'd be really keen to catch

212
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,640
Speaker 2: up with you again after the election to see whether

213
00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:03,800
Speaker 2: there's been a change in this.

214
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:04,440
Speaker 1: Space or not.

215
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,319
Speaker 2: I really appreciate you both taking the time to come

216
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:08,600
Speaker 2: in this morning and have a chat.

217
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:09,040
Speaker 1: With us as well.

218
00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:10,679
Speaker 3: No, absolutely, thanks for having us.

219
00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,319
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and that was indeed well Jess

220
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:21,000
Speaker 2: Brugman's nd SD senior Advocate and also Judy Harrison, the

221
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:25,880
Speaker 2: dc ls SO Darwin Community Legal Service Principal Solicitor, And yeah,

222
00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,400
Speaker 2: it is definitely a concern, there is no doubt about that.

223
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,600
Speaker 2: So we will make sure that we catch up with

224
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,080
Speaker 2: them again after the federal election and see if there

225
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,120
Speaker 2: has been some movement in this space. I think we're

226
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:36,160
Speaker 2: all hoping that there is