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Speaker 1: Well, we think, particularly for people leaders, as we try

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Speaker 1: to think of our role as to find a way

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Speaker 1: to yes, so rather than you know, go into a

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Speaker 1: lot of meetings and people think it's their job to

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Speaker 1: say no. Really, my job is, if someone's brought me

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Speaker 1: a proposal, is to try to work out how to get.

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Speaker 2: It to yes.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 3: used by leading innovators to get so much out of

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Speaker 3: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an

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Speaker 3: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation and consultancy Inventium, and

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Speaker 3: I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my workday. My

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Speaker 3: guest today is Paul Migliorini. Paul leads the Amazon Web

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Speaker 3: Services business across Australia and New Zealand, which is a

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Speaker 3: role that he's been in for the last four years.

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Speaker 3: Prior to joining AWS, Paul held leadership roles all over

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Speaker 3: Asia and Australia with companies like BT, Murderola, Regis and

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Speaker 3: Ernst and Young.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: I was keen to speak to Paul because I have

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Speaker 3: heard a lot of things about Amazon's culture and they're

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Speaker 3: ways of working which absolutely fascinated me and I thought,

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Speaker 3: there's nothing better than being able to get an insider's

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Speaker 3: perspective on how it all works. So if you have

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Speaker 3: ever wondered what goes on behind the scenes of one

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Speaker 3: of the world's fastest growing and most powerful companies, I

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Speaker 3: think you will love my chat with Paul. There is

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Speaker 3: just so much good stuff and insight and ideas for

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Speaker 3: other people and other companies to try out as well.

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Speaker 3: So on that note, let's go to Paul and hear

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Speaker 3: about how he works. Paul, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, great to be I want to start.

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Speaker 3: With what we were just talking about before we started recording,

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Speaker 3: and this is that you've been having email and calendar

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Speaker 3: problems on your phone and now you're actually going to

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Speaker 3: change your behavior as a result of what happened. Can

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Speaker 3: you tell me about that.

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Speaker 1: So it's totally by accident, and as I say, constraint

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Speaker 1: does breed innovation in many cases. And so I had

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Speaker 1: an issue with my with my phone. So for some

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Speaker 1: reason that I still haven't resolved, my email and the

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Speaker 1: calendar stopped working and I just haven't gotten around to

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Speaker 1: getting it fixed. And so I've been living in this

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Speaker 1: world without email and calendar and my realization is that

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Speaker 1: I really miss my calendar, but I don't miss my email.

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Speaker 1: And it's helped me be a lot more present and

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Speaker 1: helped me manage the context switching that happens during my

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Speaker 1: work day, but equally the contextwitshing that needs to happen

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Speaker 1: when I go home in a much more effective way.

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Speaker 1: So you're very intentional about when you look at your

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Speaker 1: email and when you're focused on it what you do

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Speaker 1: with it. And I'm thinking it's contributing to a pretty

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Speaker 1: good increasing productivity. So when and if I get my

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Speaker 1: phone fixed, I think I will leave my email off

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Speaker 1: and put my.

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Speaker 2: Calendar back on. But it's been a really positive change

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Speaker 2: by accident.

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Speaker 3: That's awesome. And so you're saying when you get home

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Speaker 3: like rather than in the pre broken phone days, you

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Speaker 3: might maybe check your email a few times, like throughout

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Speaker 3: the night, because it's just so easy to do when

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Speaker 3: it's on your phone, But now it's intentional, you open

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Speaker 3: up your laptop once check and totally.

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Speaker 1: And because you know, in our world and I think

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Speaker 1: most people would work in this way, you're working across

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Speaker 1: multiple time zones, you know, within Australia and New Zealand,

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Speaker 1: but around the world, and so you've got these threads

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Speaker 1: that stay open, and you're trying to process things in

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Speaker 1: real time because customers are looking for quick results, and

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Speaker 1: so you tend to just continue to look at things

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Speaker 1: because you've got so many things that are open. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: that's productive because you can be really responsive, But most

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Speaker 1: of the time it's not because you get distracted by

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Speaker 1: a whole raft of things. It could easily wait till

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Speaker 1: another time, a more formal time.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because I was going.

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Speaker 3: To ask, like, there must be listeners kind of going, yeah,

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Speaker 3: but what if there's an emergency that you're going to

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Speaker 3: a miss what do you say to that?

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Speaker 1: People can call or they can send an SMS or

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Speaker 1: or something like that. And so there are other means

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Speaker 1: to get in touch.

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Speaker 3: That's right, there are, aren't they. We forget about the phone, don't, Yes,

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Speaker 3: good old fashioned calling.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Well, I want to dig into Amazon's leadership principles because

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Speaker 3: I think they're really interesting and maybe for those probably

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Speaker 3: most listeners are not aware of the leadership principles. Can

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Speaker 3: you explain briefly what they are and why they exist?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 1: So we have fourteen of these principles that the best

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Speaker 1: way to think about it, I think is as an

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Speaker 1: operating system for the company. So there's a set of

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Speaker 1: principles that are bookended by two the first being customer obsession,

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Speaker 1: which is that everything we do in the company starts

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Speaker 1: with a customer and works backwards, and we try to

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Speaker 1: take a really long term perspective to that and keep

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Speaker 1: customer trusters out kind of core true north.

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Speaker 2: And the other end of the book end is deliver results.

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Speaker 1: And then there's twelve other principles that sit between those two,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of it started goes back to kind

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Speaker 1: of the early days of the company when we floated

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven, Jeff Bezos wrote a letter to

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Speaker 1: shareholders and said some important things in that letter. He said,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're going to build a company that's really

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Speaker 1: focused on the customer, and we're going to index on

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Speaker 1: the long term and not be thrown off course by

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Speaker 1: short term sort of market forces or other things that

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Speaker 1: make it in the way of us and our customers.

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Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of those principles and

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Speaker 1: a bunch of others have been codified over the years

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Speaker 1: into these fourteen leaders leadership principles, and what we try

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Speaker 1: to do is as an organization is operate in a

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Speaker 1: very decentralized way where people close to the customer can

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Speaker 1: be really clear on how to make good quality decisions

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Speaker 1: at high velocity velocity without having to refer them back

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Speaker 1: to managers or even to head office for decision making.

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Speaker 2: So it helps us move really.

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Speaker 1: Really quickly, and it helps us make good quality decisions

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Speaker 1: around what we're trying to do for our customers. And

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Speaker 1: really it's one of the big fundamentals on how we

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Speaker 1: can move really quickly, and it's a kind of absolute

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Speaker 1: bedrock of how we run our company.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, fourteen, Like that's a lot. And one of them's frugality,

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Speaker 3: which just sort of seems odds with having fourteen principles,

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Speaker 3: Is that right? Yeah, So I do want to delve

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Speaker 3: into maybe frugality first and tell me about what does

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Speaker 3: that mean and how how does that actually play out. Like,

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Speaker 3: for example, we're just talking about lunch before and apparently

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Speaker 3: Amazon's not giving you a free lunch what you're a

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Speaker 3: tech company.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a couple of aspects.

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Speaker 1: To this principle of frugality. One of them is that

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Speaker 1: we believe really fundamentally in this idea of investing in

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Speaker 1: things that we can directly correlate with benefit to our customers.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we think that you know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of these superfluous benefits don't right, We try to It's

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Speaker 1: not as though where we don't spend I think, as

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Speaker 1: I recall one last year, we were one of, if

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Speaker 1: not the largest spender globally in the context of R

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Speaker 1: and D, you know, over twenty billion dollars in R

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Speaker 1: and D. But we try to make sure that investment

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Speaker 1: is deliberately focused on creating value for our customers.

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Speaker 2: So that's one big aspect of it. We try to

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Speaker 2: be really disciplined about that.

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Speaker 1: The other big aspect of frugality is this notion of constraint.

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Speaker 1: You know, so when you do actively constrain resources, typically

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Speaker 1: what you find is that you come up with really

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Speaker 1: interesting ways to solve problems. So in a world where

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Speaker 1: you have unlimited resources, you probably aren't going to be

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Speaker 1: a particularly innovative company because you don't have to be.

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Speaker 1: But when you're actively constraining resources, you tend to find

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Speaker 1: really creative ways to solve problems. So that's a couple

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Speaker 1: of the fundamentals that sit behind this notion of frugality,

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Speaker 1: and it's a really important leadership principle, and often most

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Speaker 1: people will say it's one of the more difficult ones

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Speaker 1: because we're growing so quickly and investing so readily and

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Speaker 1: in so many important things, and you know, we try

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Speaker 1: to think really big, which is another one of our

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Speaker 1: leadership principles, and be very expansive as to how we

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Speaker 1: think about creating value.

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Speaker 2: For our customers.

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Speaker 1: And you have to invest a lot, you know, and

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Speaker 1: then to actively constrain resources at the same time is

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Speaker 1: quite a difficult discipline, but a really important one.

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Speaker 3: And so can you give me an example of where

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Speaker 3: you've had to apply that in a way. I guess

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Speaker 3: that's been challenging for you and your role.

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Speaker 1: So typically what will happen is, you know, we will

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Speaker 1: get an investment plan and often the teams will be saying, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm looking to you know, there's this many customers and

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Speaker 1: we believe fundamentally we can we can help them in

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Speaker 1: a really interesting ways, and therefore we need this, you know,

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Speaker 1: this level of investment, and we'll go, okay, that's interesting,

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Speaker 1: but you know, how would you do that with half

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Speaker 1: the investment? Because we're constantly thinking about this idea of scale,

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Speaker 1: and in particular, the notion of doing it in a

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Speaker 1: non linear way. You know, so as we're trying to

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Speaker 1: grow our business, you know, how can we be doing

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Speaker 1: it in a way that's not proportional, ie where because

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Speaker 1: that's ultimately not effective in the long term. So we'll

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Speaker 1: consciously say well, okay, you can have half or you

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Speaker 1: can have a quarter, and invariably what happens is it's

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Speaker 1: super interesting because the team go away and because it's

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Speaker 1: conditioned through our principles, it's not a real frustration. People

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Speaker 1: know that's why we're doing it, and it's just as

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Speaker 1: a forcing function to go away and think about a

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Speaker 1: problem in a very different way, and most people find

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Speaker 1: it to be pretty useful.

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Speaker 3: So would that then be unusual to give a project

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Speaker 3: the full funding that has been requested.

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Speaker 2: It really depends. I mean, we are investing.

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Speaker 1: You know, really really heavily lots of people, and that's

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Speaker 1: because the market opportunity is there, and we see that

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Speaker 1: customers are driving a lot of value from the work

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Speaker 1: we're doing, and therefore.

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Speaker 2: We're investing against that.

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Speaker 1: And so there's a tension, you know, between the two,

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Speaker 1: and it's a question of how well you manage that tension.

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Speaker 1: I guess that just coming back to leadership principles for

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Speaker 1: a moment, I mean, part of the way, or one

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Speaker 1: of the easier ways I think to think about it,

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Speaker 1: is that we have this kind of fundamental belief around

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Speaker 1: the company that we are a company where builders come

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Speaker 1: to build. And so this notion of being a builder,

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Speaker 1: it really is the embodiment of these fourteen leadership principles

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Speaker 1: that you really focused on invention, you really want to

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Speaker 1: think big, you have a strong level of ownership and

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Speaker 1: bias for action around how you solve customers, and so

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Speaker 1: you can roll all of those principles up into this

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Speaker 1: idea of being builders.

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Speaker 2: And we think that.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's a leader and everyone should be a builder and

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Speaker 1: really therefore represent those principles in a really kind of

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Speaker 1: effective way.

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Speaker 3: So how does that relate, like in terms of everyone's

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Speaker 3: a builder. If you're in say sales marketing or something

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Speaker 3: like that, like you're not an engineer, how do those

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Speaker 3: people conceptualize that.

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Speaker 1: I can give you a real example. So my current manager,

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Speaker 1: Ed who was my predecessor in my current role a

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Speaker 1: number of years ago, now four or five years ago,

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Speaker 1: was looking at what we're doing for our customers and

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Speaker 1: he had a hypothesis around this notion of global customers

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Speaker 1: and how they wanted to deploy tech, and so he

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Speaker 1: had an idea basically, and he wrote it up in

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Speaker 1: a six page and he said, look, we need to

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Speaker 1: think about building a new organizational unit that's really built

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Speaker 1: specifically for the needs of these global multi nationals who

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Speaker 1: who want to consume tech in different ways.

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Speaker 2: They're highly distributed.

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Speaker 1: And so he wrote a six pager and when build

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Speaker 1: a entirely new business today is a multi billion dollar

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Speaker 1: business from a six page document. So that's a really

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Speaker 1: good example in the world of sales of how this

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Speaker 1: works today. We have a team of people here who

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Speaker 1: are doing an incredible work around this idea of.

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Speaker 2: What we call the cognitive customer experience.

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Speaker 1: So we've got a platform that effectively creates a software based.

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Speaker 2: Contact center called Amazon Connect.

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Speaker 1: But equally, what we're seeing is that loads of customers

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Speaker 1: are looking to integrate that with AI and a whole

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Speaker 1: raft of other things that will help them to transform

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Speaker 1: the customer experience. And so we created a small team

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Speaker 1: we called it a two pizza team of builders who

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Speaker 1: are out there and I.

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Speaker 3: Can explain what you mean by a two pizza team

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Speaker 3: that are not familiar.

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Speaker 1: With that chanel. So it's essentially a small cross functional

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Speaker 1: team that has their requisite skills within it to operate

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Speaker 1: completely autonomously. And the idea is that what we want

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Speaker 1: in terms of scale is a team that's kind of

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Speaker 1: that you could feed with two pizzas is the basic

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Speaker 1: rule of thumb. So we think it kind of ten

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Speaker 1: to twelve people roughly, And the reason we try to

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Speaker 1: keep it small is because what happens is as teams

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Speaker 1: grow is you tend to have to create a whole

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Speaker 1: series of mechanisms to establish to manage cross functional communication.

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Speaker 1: So what happens is once you get to a certain

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Speaker 1: level of scale, you're building all of these overheads into

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Speaker 1: the team and it impairs your ability to move fast.

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Speaker 2: So we call it a two pizza.

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Speaker 1: Team and have a principle around scaling those teams horizontally

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Speaker 1: that enables us to move fast. So we created this

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Speaker 1: two pizza team around Connect and today we've got many,

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Speaker 1: many hundreds of customers across Australia and New Zealand using

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Speaker 1: the Connect platform integrated with a whole aft of our

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Speaker 1: artificial intelligence services to think in a very different way

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Speaker 1: around improving the customer experience, and there's many of those

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Speaker 1: types of examples.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I like the idea of scaling horizontally. That's an

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Speaker 3: interesting way of putting it. And I've heard Bezos say

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Speaker 3: that he would prefer two completely separate teams working on

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Speaker 3: the same thing and not knowing about each other's work

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Speaker 3: and then just kind of finding out after the resources

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Speaker 3: have been used. Can you maybe go into that a

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Speaker 3: little bit, because I feel like that's a really challenging

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Speaker 3: concept for most organizations that are organized and really structural.

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Speaker 1: As a leadership principle, that's kind of helpful there. It's

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Speaker 1: called having a bias for action, and so we believe

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Speaker 1: that one is probably better than two, but equally too,

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Speaker 1: is a whole lot better than zero. And what we

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Speaker 1: mean by that is that doing nothing is not a

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Speaker 1: good answer. So invariably, what we accept that if we

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Speaker 1: have a bias for action and we see an opportunity,

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Speaker 1: rather than stopping and waiting and aligning all of the

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Speaker 1: resources and making sure there's no waste, invariably, what tends

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Speaker 1: to happen in a lot of companies is nothing right,

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Speaker 1: And we accept that in some cases, what we might

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Speaker 1: create is a situation where there may be two people

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Speaker 1: or two groups of people doing the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Or even more. But if we're moving forward.

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Speaker 1: Around the customer's agenda and we've got good rigor in

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Speaker 1: what we're doing and we're learning, then ultimately it's going

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Speaker 1: to be better than doing nothing because we'll learn and

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Speaker 1: at some point in the future we may consolidate or

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Speaker 1: aligne or whatever.

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Speaker 2: But it's way better than doing nothing.

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Speaker 1: So we accept that in moving fast and having a

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Speaker 1: bias for there may be some waste.

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Speaker 3: So how does that then sit with you as a leader,

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Speaker 3: Because again I would imagine most senior leaders it is

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Speaker 3: important for them to retain control and understand what's going

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Speaker 3: on in every pocket of the organization and feel like

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Speaker 3: they're all like across it. But I would imagine it

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Speaker 3: couldn't be like that here based on that. What's that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of interesting.

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Speaker 1: I often tell people that you don't do a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of management work at Amazon. You do a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of coaching, and the leadership principles become really helpful

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Speaker 1: there because you know, we're hoping that people are out

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Speaker 1: in front of customers making great decisions and helping customers

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Speaker 1: in a really effective way, and the last thing I

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Speaker 1: want to do is get in the way of that.

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Speaker 1: I want to keep them as much freedom to do

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Speaker 1: that work as I possibly can, because it'll enable them

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Speaker 1: to move faster, and we'll learn from that and we'll

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Speaker 1: just get better and better over time. In terms of

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Speaker 1: helping our customers, what we try to focus on, rather

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Speaker 1: than outputs is a set of inputs. So we try

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Speaker 1: to feel really convicted around the inputs. You know, in

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Speaker 1: the case of you know, the cognitive CX work that

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Speaker 1: we're doing, we look at, you know, how many customers

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Speaker 1: are experimenting with a platform. We look at how much

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Speaker 1: value they're getting from it. We look at the skills

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Speaker 1: that they might otherwise need to be able to really

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Speaker 1: affect change and get value from the platform. So we'd

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Speaker 1: measure those sorts of inputs and make sure that we're

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Speaker 1: applying our effort on the right inputs, because then, you know,

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Speaker 1: what we try to do is apply the test that says, well,

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Speaker 1: let's then measure the causality to outputs, you know, which

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Speaker 1: might be sort of a set of business goals might

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Speaker 1: be in our case, it may be revenue or sales

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Speaker 1: or P and L or whatever, and as long as

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Speaker 1: we feel like we're convicted on the right inputs, then

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Speaker 1: it's really about ensuring that we're supporting the teams effectively

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Speaker 1: and enabling them as much freedom.

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Speaker 2: As possible to move quickly in front of the customer. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Kind that's interesting, so kind of like lead versus lag measures,

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Speaker 3: I guess.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you could call them leads.

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Speaker 1: You know, we use the term inputs quite intentionally, and

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Speaker 1: we do measure a lot of things. We're a very

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Speaker 1: data driven organization and we try to be very, very

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Speaker 1: convicted and have a whole lot of rigor on in

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Speaker 1: terms of what we measure and the inputs we measure.

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Speaker 1: So that's some of the things we think, we think

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Speaker 1: about and hopefully those inputs really guide us to the

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Speaker 1: things that are most important for our customers and in

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Speaker 1: the fullness of time, we think that'll mean that will

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Speaker 1: create value for us.

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Speaker 3: Now, you mentioned bias for action as one of the

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Speaker 3: leadership principles. There's also deep dive is another one, And

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Speaker 3: for me kind of when I was looking through them

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Speaker 3: and thinking about them, they feel kind of at odds

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Speaker 3: and I want to know how do they actually play

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Speaker 3: together and complement each other.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's certainly a tension there, and that tension is

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Speaker 1: quite deliberate. So the way we think about that particular

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Speaker 1: aspect is that it comes down to judgment, which is

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Speaker 1: embodied by another leadership principle called write a lot, and

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Speaker 1: we try to ensure that we're making a judgment call.

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Speaker 1: In this case, the judgment call is built around the

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Speaker 1: type of decision, and so we think about decisions in

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Speaker 1: two forms. We think about a decision being a two

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Speaker 1: way door, i e. That it's inherently reversible, in which

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Speaker 1: case we should index on moving quickly even if we

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Speaker 1: don't have perfect information.

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Speaker 2: We just need to use intuition and judge and move

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Speaker 2: really quickly.

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Speaker 1: Equally, if we take the view that it's what we

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Speaker 1: call a one way door, so inherently irreversible, then we

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Speaker 1: expect that our leaders and by the way, everyone inside

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Speaker 1: Amazon is a leader, So when I talk about leaders,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about.

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Speaker 2: Everybody as opposed to people leaders.

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Speaker 1: Then we expect our leaders to exercise good judgment and

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Speaker 1: dive deep and go really deep into the problem, get

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Speaker 1: to the root of the opportunity or the root of

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Speaker 1: the challenges in a very rigorous data driven way to

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Speaker 1: ensure that we're making as good as decision as we

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Speaker 1: possibly could.

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Speaker 2: And so that's how we think about that.

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Speaker 3: Is it always obvious whether the door is one way

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Speaker 3: or two ways?

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Speaker 2: No, it's not always obvious, which is why we rely

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Speaker 2: on good judgment.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're hoping that people can see, hey, this

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Speaker 1: is you know, I think in most cases it's reasonably

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Speaker 1: obvious when you look at a decision and go, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I can see how that's inherently reversible. Like

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Speaker 1: if we've got that wrong, as long as we've got

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Speaker 1: good rigor around what we're learning, then you know, we'll

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Speaker 1: pivot and iterate in an effective way. Equally, if it's

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Speaker 1: a really big decision.

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Speaker 2: You've seen some of those. There's really big decisions you

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Speaker 2: know that we've made. Invariably people like Jeff Bezos and

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Speaker 2: in our case Andy jasse A Suit are involved in

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Speaker 2: those decisions, and everyone goes really deep on those specific decisions.

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Speaker 2: But usually it is, but in some cases not so much.

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Speaker 3: I feel like, disagree and commit gets a lot of

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Speaker 3: pr as one of the leadership principles, and can you

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Speaker 3: explain for those that haven't come across it what it means?

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Speaker 3: And then I'm curious how you have personally gone about

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Speaker 3: applying that, because I think it's a challenging one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's one of my absolute favorites on

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Speaker 1: many levels. The root of the principle is this idea

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Speaker 1: that you know, if you have if you're a scenario

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Speaker 1: where we're in a room for context that has white

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Speaker 1: walls and there's another wall that is black, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we could have a debate as to whether the wall

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Speaker 1: is white or black. And what happens in many companies

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Speaker 1: is you tend to land on consensus and you go, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's agree that it's great, but the answer is that

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Speaker 1: wall's white, unambiguously white. And so what we should do

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Speaker 1: is we should have a really robust and rigorous argument

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Speaker 1: that gets us to the right answer, and let's have

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Speaker 1: a lot of backbone about that, you know, and make

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Speaker 1: sure that you know, if we have a strong opinion

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Speaker 1: on it, we're putting that opinion on the table in

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Speaker 1: really forthright ways and because it we believe it will

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Speaker 1: get us to a better quality answer. And we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be meek and mild about that, and we shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: consensus based because ultimately, if we land on the wrong answer,

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Speaker 1: it's going to mean about outcome for our customer. And

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Speaker 1: so what we try to do is we try to

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Speaker 1: build a bunch of cultural conditions that say it's really

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Speaker 1: okay to have a very rigorous debate. Now, clearly it

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Speaker 1: needs to be respectful, it needs to be data driven,

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Speaker 1: but it needs to be forthright, and we expect people

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Speaker 1: to have a load of backbone on that. And it's

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Speaker 1: good because it creates a level of permission. And what

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Speaker 1: happens is we you know, it's a big part of

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Speaker 1: how we recruit people that you know, we have an

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Speaker 1: expectation that you're going to going to really fight your

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Speaker 1: corner on a position if you think it's important for customers,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to back down for unless you know

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Speaker 1: you've really made your case clearly.

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Speaker 2: And then the other part of it, of course, is

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Speaker 2: to say, look.

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Speaker 1: When we've made a decision, then let's make sure we've

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Speaker 1: made it, you know, and nobody is second guessing the decision,

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Speaker 1: because we'll choose to move forward. And so I find

444
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,320
Speaker 1: it's really really helpful because most of the people I

445
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,879
Speaker 1: work with at whatever level I can rely upon to

446
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 1: give me a really honest, data driven view on a perspective,

447
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,879
Speaker 1: and that's really really useful. You know, you don't have

448
00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,480
Speaker 1: to second guess or assume that people won't most people,

449
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,120
Speaker 1: I would hope all people inside our company will.

450
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:16,840
Speaker 3: So how does that work in a meeting then, because

451
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,720
Speaker 3: normally I'm just thinking about a typical meeting where it's

452
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,639
Speaker 3: a consensus based decision as it is that you know

453
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 3: nine to nine percent of companies and you know when

454
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,479
Speaker 3: the meeting has finished because you've reached consensus. But here, like,

455
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,640
Speaker 3: how how do you know when you've reached the decision

456
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,280
Speaker 3: because you don't have that natural consensus of closure.

457
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:38,960
Speaker 1: Well, we try to make sure that we make a

458
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 1: clear decision, and most meetings are kind of unusual in

459
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,119
Speaker 1: the sense that we do really believe in being very

460
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 1: data driven and rigorous in our decision making, and we

461
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,200
Speaker 1: have a mechanism for that. Most meetings, by the way,

462
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 1: internally we don't use PowerPoint. Most meetings are governed by

463
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,399
Speaker 1: a sixty well in its longest form of six page narrative.

464
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,199
Speaker 1: But it's a written form narrative. And the reason we

465
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 1: use a narrative.

466
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,160
Speaker 2: Is because it does that job right.

467
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 1: You're not relying on interpretation, you're not using high level

468
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 1: superficial data and know nice pictures. You're actually having to

469
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 1: write a long form narrative and you have to substantiate

470
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,960
Speaker 1: the statements you make in that narrative with clear data.

471
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 2: And when they're well written.

472
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 1: What we find is it's really useful because at the

473
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 1: start of a meeting, we stop and we read it

474
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,200
Speaker 1: and usually take fifteen to twenty minutes in silence to

475
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,959
Speaker 1: read it, and it gets everyone onto the same page

476
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 1: in a really effective way, really quickly. And what I

477
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,480
Speaker 1: tend to find and we have basically a set of

478
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,639
Speaker 1: principles around how these meetings should run, which is that

479
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 1: people that the senior most person in the room should

480
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 1: speak last so as not to introduce any any bias inadvertently,

481
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 1: and then we have a robust debate and then the

482
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 1: opinions of the senior person you're kind of informed by

483
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 1: everyone else's opinion, and then typically we get a fairly

484
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 1: clear decision as a consequence of that. So I find

485
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 1: that that mechanism, in particular, that narrative form is really

486
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,199
Speaker 1: helpful to getting clear decisions, you know, and that have

487
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 1: backbone disagree and commit principle is clearly at work. But

488
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 1: what happens is with the document, is you do tend

489
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 1: to get a lot of rich data that kind of

490
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,479
Speaker 1: removes a lot of the interpretation and subjectivity that you

491
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,240
Speaker 1: often see with PowerPoint in other organizations.

492
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to come back to the six page narrative,

493
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 3: but on the disagreeing commit for you, how how do

494
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 3: you manage that just internally because I imagine there must have

495
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 3: been many decisions that you've disagreed on but had to

496
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 3: commit to. Like how how internally has that worked? Yeah?

497
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 2: Totally fine.

498
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 1: I mean I love it, you know, you know because

499
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 1: I feel and certainly it's the case with the people

500
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 1: I work directly.

501
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 2: With, is that you know, you really, you really are.

502
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 1: Expected to have a strong, strong opinion. And actually it's

503
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 1: it counts against you.

504
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:52,919
Speaker 2: If you have an opinion and you don't share it.

505
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 2: So I'm going to give you my opinion, but you know, the.

506
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 1: Expectation is you do it in a very objective, data

507
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,360
Speaker 1: driven way, and so here's the basis of my opinion,

508
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: and you'll have a good quality argument and it's not subjective.

509
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 1: It's objective, and you tend to get the argument or

510
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 1: conversation built around the right things, and you get to

511
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 1: a much clearer decision, and you know, it's happened many

512
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,440
Speaker 1: times that decisions have gone against me, and I feel

513
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,120
Speaker 1: totally fine about that because it's not as though you're

514
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: having voiced an opinion and you usually what you find

515
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 1: is that it's a good, considered decision that gets made,

516
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: even if it's one that you probably don't agree with,

517
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,400
Speaker 1: and so I find it to be really effective.

518
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 3: How do you pick up for that in recruitment? Because

519
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 3: I feel like so many cultures, my own workplace culture

520
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 3: and Inventium included, like we've got very nice, agreeable people,

521
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,159
Speaker 3: and I love this principle of Amazon's and you know,

522
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 3: it reminds me of radical candor, and like there are

523
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,399
Speaker 3: sort of lots of versions you know of that, I guess, So,

524
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 3: how do you pick up for that in recruitment to

525
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 3: find someone that's actually going to thrive in a disagree

526
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 3: and commit environment.

527
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, we test for it.

528
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,919
Speaker 1: And the way we test for it is that we

529
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 1: have another leadership principle called hire and develop the best,

530
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 1: And the thinking behind that leadership principle is that we

531
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 1: want every person who comes into the organization to be

532
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: a creative in the context of our company culture. That

533
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,479
Speaker 1: they're bringing something that's additive, and the test we use

534
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: is that they're better than fifty percent of people already

535
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:16,880
Speaker 1: in that role. So we try to apply an empirical

536
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: tests to that, and then we have a mechanism that

537
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: we called the loop.

538
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 2: And in the loop, it's quite.

539
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:29,959
Speaker 1: A a structured process where a candidate who usually has

540
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: already met a competency bar goes into a process and specifically,

541
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: what we're trying to test for is whether the person

542
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: is raise the bar.

543
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 2: In the context of our culture.

544
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 1: And each of the interviewers in the loop is assigned

545
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: to one or two leadership principles, and we'll ask a

546
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 1: series of questions related to gathering data as to whether

547
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: that person raises the bar or not against the leadership principles,

548
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 1: and then we have a debrief at the end and

549
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: we compare data points, and one of those leadership principles

550
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 1: will always be have backbone, disagree and commit. We have

551
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: a conversation about it. If we don't feel like the

552
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 1: person raises the bar, we'll talk about why and whether

553
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: we feel like it can be mitigated. Because nobody is

554
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: going to be.

555
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 2: Perfect against forteen leadership principles. It's usually the.

556
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,959
Speaker 1: Case, But the question is can they be mitigated and

557
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: do we feel like the strengths outwigh some of the

558
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: perhaps risks that we see, and then what happens, which

559
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: one of the things I really like is we have

560
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 1: typically in recruitment processes, you have a lot of biases

561
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: that are built into recruitment processes. You have a bias

562
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: from the hiring manager who's invariably got it incentive to

563
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 1: hire you because at that particular point in time he

564
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 1: or she may not have someone in the role and

565
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: therefore is suffering as a consequence of doing two jobs.

566
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 2: You know, there's a whole bunch of biases there.

567
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: So we have what's called a bar raiser, and the

568
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: bar raiser is typically what we think of as a

569
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: role model, amazon in someone who's really kind of embodies

570
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: of leadership principles in a really strong way, and they're

571
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 1: certified and they have no stake whatsoever in the outcome

572
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: of that decision other than to ensure that this person

573
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: raises the bar against our leadership principles.

574
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 2: And in the debrief, that.

575
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: Person has a veto and it often gets exercised, and

576
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: so we try to make sure that if if you

577
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: accept the premise that you know, our culture and our

578
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: people are going to drive in the fullness of time,

579
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 1: our ability to be successful for customers and therefore successful ourselves.

580
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: Then the point of hiring is a massively important point

581
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 1: in time in the context of our long term success.

582
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 2: So we spent a lot of time and effort on that.

583
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's awesome. With the questions that you're asking around

584
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 3: the leadership principles, are they more like behavioral questions where

585
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 3: you're like, tell me about a time where you've disagreed

586
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 3: and committe like is.

587
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: That we're just looking for an evidence base around how

588
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: the persons operated through their career that you know that

589
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: we think aligned strongly to the things we think are

590
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: really important.

591
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 3: Do you remember your recruitment process?

592
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 2: I do. I do.

593
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 3: What are some of the things that stood out to

594
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 3: you or that you that were most memorable in terms

595
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 3: of how they worked out whether you were right for

596
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 3: the role?

597
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: I don't know, because you don't get visibility to your

598
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: own process. Yeah, no, you don't see the output. Obviously

599
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: it must have been, okay, must have been. But look,

600
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: one of the things I find, and I get this

601
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: feedback consistently from people is that culture is a kind

602
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: of interesting thing because it's not as though it's good

603
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: or bad.

604
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 2: There's no judgment.

605
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 1: I think typically people are good, you know, fit well

606
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 1: in a culture, or they don't right, and you may

607
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 1: be an outstanding performer but not right for the culture,

608
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: in which case you're probably not going to be successful

609
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: or happy in an organization like this. It's so strongly

610
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 1: attuned to these forteen leadership principles. So what I found

611
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: is that even though it's a very time intensive process,

612
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: it's a really good screen both ways because you know,

613
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: often what I've had is people coming into the process going, look,

614
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: I've got a really clear sense of your culture now,

615
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 1: because you know it's so evident through the process, and

616
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: you know, I just don't think it's the right culture

617
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: for me. And that's awesome, you know when you get

618
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: that sort of an output, because it's given people a

619
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: chance to get a real sense of how the culture

620
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: works and whether they're going to be happy and thrive

621
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: and operate well in that environment.

622
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 2: So it's really useful in that sense.

623
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

624
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 3: Interesting. I want to come back to the six page

625
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 3: and narrative because I had heard that power points are banned.

626
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 3: Was that hard. By the way, I imagine in you

627
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 3: or pre Amazon or pre wus life, you would have

628
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 3: credited lots of PowerPoint. What was that like getting that up?

629
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: In actual fact, I used to be a management consultant,

630
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: so I lived in PowerPoint for a long time, and

631
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: so I thought I would struggle with it. Actually, but

632
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: it became a big It took a long time. And

633
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: because it's not it's not a natural thing. A lot

634
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: of people don't spend time writing long form documents in

635
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 1: any company, and so actually it's a learned skill and

636
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: it just takes a bit of practice. And we you know,

637
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 1: so we use long form narrative for most things. So

638
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 1: for instance, when we when we do an interview, we'll

639
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: write our notes up as long form narrative. We don't

640
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: use bullet points. We just write them up as long

641
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 1: form narrative. And so you just become very practiced at it.

642
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: And so what I find is now it's just it's

643
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: it's so useful. I just couldn't imagine operating without them now. Actually,

644
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 1: because because of the level of rigor and depth you

645
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: get to and when you're writing one, what I find

646
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: is I probably write maybe six or seven of them

647
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: a year, a long form, six pages, and when you're

648
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 1: writing them, it gives you exceptional clarity because you really

649
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 1: have to. It forces you to be quite rigorous and

650
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: to think things through deeply. So both in terms of

651
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 1: consuming it in terms of getting people onto the same

652
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 1: page and writing them, it's a really really useful mechanism.

653
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 2: And so I thought it'd be a lot harder than

654
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 2: it was, to be frank, and it wasn't at all.

655
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 3: Like I imagine when you say narrative, I imagine something reading like

656
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 3: a short story. Is that the right interpretation?

657
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, six page long form narrative, full sentences.

658
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 3: No dot points, no dot points, beginning, middle, and end

659
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 3: with data woven in.

660
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: Black and white. You know. Yeah, wow, you can have

661
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: lots of appendencies, by the way, and so some people do.

662
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: I never do.

663
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: But you see these documents that are so well but

664
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: you don't have to read them, and that's the rule.

665
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: And so again it's a forcing function. So people have them,

666
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: but you're not expected to read them. So you need

667
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: to write the document with a view that the pendicies

668
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: may not be read.

669
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 3: How long does it take to write one of them?

670
00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: It kind of depends.

671
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: It depends so like I sit down and write, you know,

672
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: a kind of a document that summarizes our aims at

673
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: business once a year, and I take a lot of

674
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: time on that because you know, I really go deep

675
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: in every part of the business and thin deeply about it.

676
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: So maybe that's you know, fifty or sixty hours of

677
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: my time to write that. Equally, I've written docs that

678
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: I can do, you know, in an afternoon in three

679
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: or four hours, that aren't perhaps as deep or kind

680
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: of analytical as the broader docks. It just kind of

681
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: depends you just get very good at writing them. Some

682
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: of them are quick to write, others take a lot

683
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: longer that.

684
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 3: You taught how to write, because I feel like the

685
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 3: ability to write, and particularly the ability to write pros

686
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 3: is a lost skill. Does Amazon give you training?

687
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: We do have narrative writing courses, and so it's totally optional.

688
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 1: So if people want coaching on it, you can get

689
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 1: you can get coaching. And then there's what you do

690
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: find to your point is there's a bunch of people

691
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: who are just really good at it, and they invariably

692
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: become coaches to everyone else as well.

693
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: I'm not one of those people.

694
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 3: So how did you get better at it. I assume

695
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 3: that you've improved at it during your time here.

696
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 2: It's just practicing conditioning. You just get good at it.

697
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 2: You consume a lot of them, you know, you write

698
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 2: a lot of them. You just get good at it.

699
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: I think moderately competent, I would describe probably not good.

700
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm just I'm fascinated by that. I feel like

701
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 3: there'd be you know, people listening to this going, ah,

702
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 3: do away with powerpoints. But then I feel like with

703
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: the amount of time and rigor that's going into a

704
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: six page narrative, and I assume that they don't have

705
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 3: to be six pages, but that's just the limit that's right.

706
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 3: And I assume that they are like font sized guidelines,

707
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 3: so you're not just going eight point five.

708
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: Totally ten point font minimum.

709
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: There's there's hard rules around margin sizes and line spacing

710
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: the whole lot. Because you know, you can imagine every

711
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: trick in the book has been tried absolutely. You know

712
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: that this notion of a forcing function is an interesting one.

713
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: That the idea that it's a fixed six pages is

714
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: really useful as well, because you know, I know that

715
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: Andy writes a six pager on AWS each year for

716
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,719
Speaker 1: Jeff and I sit there and going, you know, Gollie,

717
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: how would you know fit an entire business into six pages?

718
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: And you know when I struggle to do the AMZ business.

719
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: And Edwin, who runs our APEC business, does the same.

720
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: And it's a super forcing function because it does force

721
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: you to synthesize your messaging into a coherent six page narrative.

722
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: You can't just waffle on forever, and you've got to

723
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: get to the important points and you've got to you've

724
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: got to make it constructive and really focused, and so

725
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: that becomes useful as well.

726
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: I imagine that must be a beautiful time saving device

727
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 3: because I feel like like that much thought does not

728
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 3: go into PowerPoint decks and there's often a lot of unnecessary,

729
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 3: totally waffle Where is this? It's all, It's all there.

730
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 3: And I want to pick back up on what you

731
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 3: said about how within the meeting is when people will

732
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 3: actually read the narrative.

733
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 2: Is that right?

734
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 3: So the time blocked out for reading?

735
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, normally what happens is you take you read in

736
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: silence for the first fifteen to twenty minutes of the meeting,

737
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: and everyone reads in silence, and again a bunch of

738
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: protocols around that, and.

739
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 3: What are they?

740
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: We just complete silence because people are focused on it

741
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 2: and concentrating on their docks, so you know, just being

742
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: respectful around those is important.

743
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: So quite funny, like it's really feels very unnatural when

744
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,479
Speaker 1: you first joined that. Everyone sits down and you know, hi,

745
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: how are you? And let's read a dock and you

746
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: sit there in silence for twenty minutes and read a dock.

747
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: I find it so super useful because you do get

748
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: this situation where often what happens, particularly with PowerPoint, is

749
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: you've get people that are just wonderful communicators and can

750
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: communicate really well and present really well. Often that can

751
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: cover a lot of sins. And the reverse is also true.

752
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: You get people that are poor communicators who can't get

753
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: a point across well, but actually what they're saying is

754
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: really important, and that's kind of I think that's potentially

755
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: very risky in.

756
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 2: A lot of companies.

757
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: What you want to do is get the right message

758
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: and because you've got time to construct it well in

759
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: a narrative, typically what happens, and it's not always the case,

760
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: you know, invariably, if you've get a poorly written narrative,

761
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: you know, you don't get a great qualit outcome, but

762
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: when it's well written, getting everyone to the same page

763
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: with the same data set at the end of that

764
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: twenty minutes is really powerful. Because the other thing that

765
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: happens with PowerPoint is you'll have someone who say an hour,

766
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: and they'll spend forty five minutes of the hour presenting

767
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: a pack and you've got a bunch of questions for

768
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: each of each of the pages, so you can stop

769
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: and ask questions, and often you don't get to a

770
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 1: really clean endpoint because you're debating different things and it

771
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: leads a lot to interpretation.

772
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 2: So often find that.

773
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: You just don't get as cleaner an outcome, which means

774
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: it actually takes a lot longer because you're reving through

775
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: things a lot more.

776
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 2: That doesn't seem to happen as much.

777
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do like the fact that it really takes

778
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 3: out a lot of the biases that you know, if

779
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 3: you've got the gift of the gab, you can sell

780
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 3: most things through a PowerPoint deck and the reverse is true.

781
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 3: But also I like the fact that the ratios of

782
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 3: consuming information versus talking about the information is really different

783
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 3: here because you're not just like in passive mode listening

784
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 3: to a PowerPoint presentation. You're actively reading and processing something

785
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 3: that must make for a very different quality of discussions.

786
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: I think so, yeah, invariably it does.

787
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 3: I want to ask about the PRFAQ, which, from what

788
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 3: I understand, is Amazon's version of a minimum viable product.

789
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 2: Well, probably not.

790
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: I'd say it's a precursor to a minimum as we

791
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: would call a lovable.

792
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: Product as opposed a viable product.

793
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: So invariably it goes back to our leadership principle, right,

794
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: which is that everything we do starts with the customer

795
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: and works backwards. And so one of the mechanisms we

796
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: use to underpin that is the pr FAQ.

797
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: So what does that look like?

798
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: So essentially what happens is that we have a process.

799
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: We call it a working.

800
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,479
Speaker 1: Backwards process clearly, and the idea is that it's working

801
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: backwards from the customer. There's a set of questions. You

802
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 1: won't your listeners won't be able to see these questions.

803
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: But I'm just fun security on my security tag and

804
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 1: there's five questions.

805
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: If you want to look at those and.

806
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 3: Can I read these out?

807
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: I can?

808
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 3: So the working backwards questions, who is the customer what

809
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 3: is the customer problem or opportunity? Is the most important

810
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 3: customer benefit? Clear, how do you know what customers need

811
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 3: or want? What does the customer experience look like? That's cool?

812
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,359
Speaker 3: And this is like a little laminated card that you've

813
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 3: got attached to your city.

814
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: And the reason it's called the working backwards process is

815
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,439
Speaker 1: because everything we do starts with a customer and works backwards. Now,

816
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: the first step is to say, all right, well, how

817
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: do I know that this is useful for the customer?

818
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: And so our way of doing that is to write

819
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: a ficious press release. And what we do is we

820
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: write a press release at some point in the future

821
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: about this particular service or product or initiative. And the

822
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: reason we do that is and we tend tend to

823
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: have fictitious quotes from potential customers and other people, and

824
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: we're trying to apply a test that says, how do

825
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: we know that this particular thing that we're proposing to

826
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: do is really going to have impact for our customer.

827
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: Because you can build a whole lot of things and

828
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: then find you've gotten to the end of a process

829
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: and go, well, you know that really just didn't add

830
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: a whole lot of values. So the PRFIQ is our

831
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 1: tool to do that. And so what happens is you

832
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: start drafting these press releases and it really helps you

833
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: to think about them with a customer in mind, because

834
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 1: you're saying, total point of reference is whether this will

835
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: create value, will be useful, or be valuable, And the

836
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: quotes help you because you're actually saying, well, how will

837
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: this person consume this and what would their reaction be

838
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: to this particular thing.

839
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 2: So that's the press release.

840
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 1: Now the FAQ is kind of interesting because what you

841
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: then do is you think up a whole series of

842
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: frequently asked questions, and typically they're grouped into sort of

843
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 1: outward facing questions. You know, it might be how would

844
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: we think about pricing this? You know, all of the

845
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: things you could otherwise think of, and you know internal questions,

846
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: you know, like maybe an investment type conversation, those sorts

847
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: of things. And what we try to do is apply

848
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: a test that says, look, how do we think We

849
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: try to come up with the hardest possible question. So

850
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: again we're trying to use a forcing function that says, look,

851
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: let's have considered as much about this problem as we

852
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: possibly can through these FAQs, and again it's just a

853
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: forcing function to do that planning and assuming, and what

854
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: tends to happen is these power of FAQs tend to

855
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: iterate a lot and if you get to a good answer,

856
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: then you into your sort of MLP type phase where

857
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 1: you're starting to build a prototype and getting this thing built.

858
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: But everything starts there. There's nothing significant that we do

859
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 1: that doesn't have a pr FAQ. And often what happens

860
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: is you'll get to a certain point in the life

861
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: cycle of this thing. Because I'm using the word thing because.

862
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 2: It could be a product or a service, it could

863
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: also be a project, it could be a whole after

864
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 2: things and your reference back to the perq're going, well,

865
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: you know what do we envisage this would look like?

866
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: And you know how do we track back against that?

867
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: So it's quite a useful mechanism.

868
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 3: That's fascinating. What percentage of ideas get past the PRFIQ stage?

869
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: I would say a lot. And the reason I would

870
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 1: say a lot is because we don't have a defined

871
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: process for ideation and investment. There's no investment committee, there's

872
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: no clear path. And that's pretty intentional because you know,

873
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: you don't know where an idea is going to come from,

874
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: and so you don't necessarily want to preordain, you know,

875
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: how to get an idea. So we have this management

876
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: I guess philosophy, this idea of the organizational Yes, have

877
00:37:58,239 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 1: you heard about that context?

878
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 3: I don't think so.

879
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: What we think, particularly for people leaders, as we try

880
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: to think of our role as to find a way

881
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: to yes. So rather than you go into a lot

882
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: of meetings and people think it's their job to say no, really,

883
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: my job is if someone's brought me a proposal, is

884
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: to try to work out how to get it to yes.

885
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 1: And so in many cases, what happens with a pr

886
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: FAQ is it iterates, which is, look, oh, you know,

887
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: maybe you should think about A, or you think about B,

888
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: and look, why don't you go to have a conversation

889
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: with person over there? And you know, I'm not sure

890
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: this is quite ready, but like I think, if you

891
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: think about A, B and C, you know we can

892
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: get it there. So often what happens is the power

893
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: of FAQ becomes a tool to help with the process

894
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: of iteration. So the reason I say most is because

895
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 1: if you've got a fundamentally good idea that holds water,

896
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: in the context of creating value for customer, then most

897
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: of what we're trying to do is work out how

898
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: to get it executed. Now, in some cases that could

899
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: be really quick and really easily easy, and the.

900
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 2: Process enables that. In other cases, though, it'll take a

901
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 2: lot of iteration to get.

902
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: To a point where we go, Okay, good, let's move,

903
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 1: you know, And so most of the time you're really

904
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: working towards yes as opposed to killing ideas and saying no.

905
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 3: I love that. Yeah, working towards yeah, getting to a yes.

906
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 3: That's so different to how most people operate because no

907
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 3: makes you sound smart generally, because you you know.

908
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 2: It's funny. It's easy to say no. It's a lot

909
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 2: harder to say yes.

910
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I love that. Look. My final question for you,

911
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 3: Paul is how can people find out more about you

912
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 3: and Amazon Web Services and by what you're doing, Like,

913
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 3: where can people go to find out more?

914
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 2: Thank you?

915
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: Well, look, I really appreciate this opportunity because you know, fundamentally,

916
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: the thing that enables us to be successful for customers

917
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 1: in the fullness of time is being able to attract

918
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: great quality of people who have awesome careers here. So

919
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: you know, it's fun to be able to talk about

920
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: our culture and hopefully, you know, people see it as

921
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 1: being interesting and you know, context around where they can

922
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: do great work. And you know, we've got lots of

923
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: lots and lots of roles open in Australia and New

924
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: Zealand today, so we're always looking for great people. You

925
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: can go on to our website, you know, I'd love

926
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: it if you're based in Sydney or Auckland. We have

927
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 1: major customer events each year. He's in April, about thirty

928
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: thousand people are expected at the International Convention Center in Sydney,

929
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: and we'll have a similar one in Auckland, I think

930
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: in the June July time frame, and we have a

931
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,240
Speaker 1: whole lot of events. You know, if you're a developer,

932
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 1: we have big developer days through the year, so i'd

933
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 1: encourage you to come to any one of our events

934
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: as well. And you know, we often have meetups and

935
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: our partners have meetups, so there's many different ways you can.

936
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: He can come and meet our team and get us

937
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 1: sense of the work that we're doing and hopefully the

938
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: work that you might do if you chose to come

939
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 1: and work with us.

940
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 3: That's awesome. And well link to the career's page in

941
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 3: the show notes and also just the events page as well,

942
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 3: so people want to find out more, we'll put those

943
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 3: in the show notes. Paul, it has been an absolute delight,

944
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 3: just fascinating hearing how Amazon works. So thank you so

945
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 3: much for your time.

946
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 2: It's a pleasure. Thank you really appreciate it.

947
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 3: That is in for today's show. I hope you liked

948
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 3: my chat with Paul and enjoyed getting insight into what

949
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 3: goes on behind the scenes at Amazon. So if you

950
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: are enjoying How I Work, why not share this episode

951
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 3: with other people or share the show with other people

952
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 3: that you think could benefit. I absolutely love it when

953
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 3: I see posts on LinkedIn or Twitter or social media

954
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 3: with people recommending the show. That really is super lovely

955
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 3: that you're enjoying what I am spending a lot of

956
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 3: time producing. So do share it with others who you

957
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,720
Speaker 3: think could benefit. And that is one of the ways

958
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 3: that How I Work has been growing. So that is

959
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 3: it for today's show, and I will see you next time.