Speaker 1: Just a heads up before we get into it. Today's
Speaker 1: episode contains distressing themes, including discussions of extreme violence. Already
Speaker 1: and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,
Speaker 1: now it makes sense.
Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday,
Speaker 2: the twenty fifth of August.
Speaker 1: I'm Lucy Tassel, I'm Emma Gillespie.
Speaker 2: Last week, the death of a Frenchman was live streamed
Speaker 2: on a platform co founded by Australia's youngest billionaire called Kick.
Speaker 2: Over two years, thousands of viewers watched the man who
Speaker 2: died in his sleep being physically assaulted in real time
Speaker 2: by several other people. In today's episode, we'll explain what
Speaker 2: you should know about the man who died, the streaming
Speaker 2: platform that saw the last two years of his life unfold,
Speaker 2: and the Australian billionaire who founded it. Before we get
Speaker 2: into today's episode, a quick word from our sponsor, Lucy.
Speaker 1: This is an incredibly distressing case. Many aspects of it
Speaker 1: defy belief. What actually happened and how did you find
Speaker 1: out about this?
Speaker 2: So last week I was scrolling through my social media.
Speaker 2: It was before bed, which I know I'm not supposed
Speaker 2: to do, but I was doing it anyway, and a
Speaker 2: post appeared on my feed that really stopped me in
Speaker 2: my tracks. So it was from an account that I
Speaker 2: don't follow, but it was one of those things where
Speaker 2: the algorithm will give you things to say, like this
Speaker 2: is popping off, or maybe this seems like something you're
Speaker 2: interested in. I think it came across my path because
Speaker 2: it had hundreds of thousands of likes. Yep. This post
Speaker 2: is from a person called Sean to Black. That's their username.
Speaker 2: They're a twitch streamer. More about that later if you
Speaker 2: don't know what a twitch streamer is. But here's what
Speaker 2: the post said. Quote French kickstreamers killed a guy live
Speaker 2: after abusing him physically and mentally for months. Did I
Speaker 2: read that right? That's the whole quote.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And when I hear that and read that quote,
Speaker 1: I also had the same response. We do read shocking
Speaker 1: things online all the time. They don't always turn out
Speaker 1: to be true. Yeah, but in this case, this is
Speaker 1: a real thing. This actually happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's killed is something that would need to be
Speaker 2: born out in courts, but certainly in the sense that
Speaker 2: there was a man in France who died live on
Speaker 2: a live stream, that is true. And as you said,
Speaker 2: we see things online all the time, we investigate them.
Speaker 2: They don't necessarily come to anything, but this came to something.
Speaker 2: In the replies to this post, I found a thread
Speaker 2: of videos involving a man who went by the username
Speaker 2: Jean Pormanov. In the videos, he's attacked over and over
Speaker 2: again by two other men. There are also many videos
Speaker 2: of them laughing at him, making fun of him, humiliating him.
Speaker 2: They're very upsetting. I should say they're all in French,
Speaker 2: but they're definitely upset. Even if you don't speak French.
Speaker 2: My French is a little bit rusty, but I can
Speaker 2: tell you many of the videos that I saw in
Speaker 2: this thread, which appeared to have been clipped and reposted
Speaker 2: on TikTok as well as I was seeing it on Twitter.
Speaker 2: But they're all over the place. They show this man,
Speaker 2: Jean Pomanov crying. They have captions telling viewers jp plur,
Speaker 2: which means like Jean Pomanov is crying in this clip.
Speaker 2: This man's real name is Raphael Gravin. That's how we'll
Speaker 2: be referring to him for the rest of the episode.
Speaker 1: So this is a man who died.
Speaker 2: Yes, there's also a clip that's been shared of the
Speaker 2: men who streamed on this platform kick with him discovering
Speaker 2: that he has died, that was being shared in censored
Speaker 2: and uncensored forms online. Gravin is wrapped in a douna
Speaker 2: and one of the men throws a plastic bottle at
Speaker 2: him to try to wake him up, at which point
Speaker 2: they discover that he has died.
Speaker 1: What do we know about the days leading up to
Speaker 1: this man's death? Is there footage before those final moments
Speaker 1: that helps us kind of piece together what's happened.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of footage, and that is because this
Speaker 2: group that he was part of had been filming NonStop
Speaker 2: for nearly three hundred hours, which works out to be
Speaker 2: just over twelve days, So they had been living and
Speaker 2: including short bouts of sleep, but not extended periods of
Speaker 2: sleep this entire time.
Speaker 1: So a twelve day essentially NonStop live stream.
Speaker 2: Yes featuring Graven Graven, Yeah, featuring this man Raphael Graven,
Speaker 2: who goes by this name Jean Pormonov. It's also one
Speaker 2: of the names of the streaming channel as Jean Pomanov,
Speaker 2: which can be kind of confusing, which is partly why
Speaker 2: we'll be referring to him by his actual name.
Speaker 1: Okay, so over those twelve days, what was going on
Speaker 1: for him? Where was he at? Is he included in
Speaker 1: the footage what was happening to him?
Speaker 2: So he's there basically the entire time during the stream,
Speaker 2: he is physically assaulted and subjected to public humiliation. I
Speaker 2: won't get into all the details, but some of this
Speaker 2: included the other men in this stream shocking him with electricity,
Speaker 2: repeatedly interrupting his sleep, parading him on the street in
Speaker 2: a wig holding a sign saying he would provide free
Speaker 2: sex acts.
Speaker 1: So somewhere in France do we know exactly where?
Speaker 2: In Nice, France, in the town of Nice. It's been
Speaker 2: reported that Graven had a pre existing heart condition. At
Speaker 2: one point in the live stream, he said he wanted
Speaker 2: to go to the hospital. In response, the others on
Speaker 2: the stream told him to sit down and shut up.
Speaker 2: At another point in the stream, he looked directly at
Speaker 2: the camera and said he wanted to stop. They obviously
Speaker 2: didn't stop. France's Tech minister, so Minister for Technology has
Speaker 2: said as many as twenty thousand people watched this live
Speaker 2: stream at some point over the twelve days it was
Speaker 2: going on.
Speaker 1: Lucy The biggest question that keeps coming up for me,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure a lot of listeners right now, is
Speaker 1: just this feeling of how could this happen? How could
Speaker 1: this go on for so long? For such a long time?
Speaker 1: Were there any commenters, anyone watching the stream who expressed
Speaker 1: their kind of concern or disappointment with what was going on?
Speaker 2: So I also have the same questions, and my kind
Speaker 2: of search for answers after seeing this led me to
Speaker 2: an investigation actually that was published in December, so eight
Speaker 2: nine months ago from a French outlet called Media Parts.
Speaker 2: So they had investigated this group of streamers, which included Gravin.
Speaker 1: Did they find anything out about the identities of the
Speaker 1: other guys involved?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we know what their pseudonyms are. So there's four
Speaker 2: men involved in the majority of videos released by this
Speaker 2: streaming collective. So there's under their pseudonyms there's Naruto, which
Speaker 2: is like an anime character, but this guy took that name,
Speaker 2: someone called Safine, someone called Kudu, and Jean Pormanov or JP.
Speaker 2: That's Gravin. As I've said, of the four, Kudu and
Speaker 2: Gravin were the targets of violence, and Naruto and Safine
Speaker 2: were the perpetrators. Okay, that was kind of the set dynamic,
Speaker 2: and there were other men. It seemed to my eyes
Speaker 2: to only be men coming in and out of the videos,
Speaker 2: But those are the main four, all right. Their videos
Speaker 2: were often titled using slurs against people with disability. Media
Speaker 2: Parts said Kudu is disabled and is under a guardianship,
Speaker 2: while Gravin was a former soldier. The investigation found Naruto
Speaker 2: and Safine would make fun of Kudu and Gravin's mental capacity,
Speaker 2: and as I've said, their videos involved a seemingly unlimited
Speaker 2: amount of physical violence, humiliation, and psychological torment.
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to understand one aspect of this. There's
Speaker 1: these kind of four men appear recurrently on this channel,
Speaker 1: on these live streams two who are the kind of
Speaker 1: physical victims of torment? Were they being held captive? Do
Speaker 1: we know why they kind of continued to appear in
Speaker 1: these videos?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was my question too, because why would you
Speaker 2: keep coming back if you're being physically assaulted on camera
Speaker 2: for thousands of people to see. It's a very complicated situation.
Speaker 2: So in a video that I saw through Media Parts investigation,
Speaker 2: Naruto and again I'm sorry I don't like it's his
Speaker 2: actual name has not been released. That's a pseudonym. He
Speaker 2: speaks to this. He's on stream with the other three
Speaker 2: guys in frame. He says, Kudo and Raphael Gravin are
Speaker 2: free to leave whenever they want. It's obviously more complicated
Speaker 2: than that. There's another video shared by media Part where
Speaker 2: Gravin is doing a lie detector test. He's asked if
Speaker 2: he would leave if he could. He says yes, and
Speaker 2: then it's like verified, that's true, he's not lying. And
Speaker 2: then he's asked if he stays because of the money,
Speaker 2: and then he says yes, and then again tick Like,
Speaker 2: I mean, this is not scientific. These guys are operating
Speaker 2: out of an apartment in Nice. They're not doing like
Speaker 2: a proper yeah polygraph test. But that's he seems to
Speaker 2: be telling the truth that he can leave, but he
Speaker 2: chooses to stay because he's getting paid to do this.
Speaker 1: Okay, tell me about the money element then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So all of these people on this channel benefited
Speaker 2: financially from it because their viewers can send the money directly.
Speaker 2: Although I will say there's one kind of complication, which
Speaker 2: is that Kudu is under a specific kind of guardianship,
Speaker 2: which Naruto at one point in one of these videos
Speaker 2: says that it means there are difficulties paying him. But
Speaker 2: then I mean, for me, that raises questions.
Speaker 1: About like where are the guardians?
Speaker 2: Where are the guardians? I mean, these are adult men,
Speaker 2: but this guy has been designated by the government as
Speaker 2: someone who needs a guardianship.
Speaker 1: And there's still so much we don't know about the
Speaker 1: circumstance of the two victims of the physical violence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of whatever their capacity was to
Speaker 1: consent to this participation.
Speaker 2: And can you even consent to be physically assaulted? That's
Speaker 2: kind of a legal question. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I want to, now, Lucy, just understand more about
Speaker 1: this platform Kick. We know it's some kind of a
Speaker 1: live streaming service, there's some kind of monetization capacity for users.
Speaker 1: But what is this platform? Where did it come from?
Speaker 2: I think the best way to explain Kick is to
Speaker 2: talk about its rival Twitch. So Twitch is kind of
Speaker 2: the name brand streaming platform online that you've probably heard of,
Speaker 2: but if you haven't heard of it, it's a platform
Speaker 2: primarily used to stream video games, Like so you would
Speaker 2: stream yourself playing a video game to an audience. They
Speaker 2: could see your screen, and then they can also see
Speaker 2: you in the corner of the typically in the corner
Speaker 2: of the screen, but I mean it's used for lots
Speaker 2: of things. That's the main purpose. And fellow users can
Speaker 2: comment on streams as they're happening, so there'll be like
Speaker 2: a running chat log along the side of the video. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's true for both Twitch and Kick. Twitch did it first.
Speaker 2: On Twitch, you can give the streamers you watch money,
Speaker 2: for example, through a paid subscription. So Twitch is quite regulated.
Speaker 2: It's not afraid to boot off popular users if they
Speaker 2: say offensive things. And there are games that you're not
Speaker 2: allowed to stream yourself playing. Okay, So in terms of Kick,
Speaker 2: many of these things are the same. It's a streaming
Speaker 2: platform primarily used for video games, and you can pay
Speaker 2: people that you watch, like you can say, I want
Speaker 2: to subscribe to your channel. Here is five bucks a month,
Speaker 2: and then that adds up and you get a lot
Speaker 2: of money. If we compare the platform's content guidelines, that's
Speaker 2: where the differences are, right. So from Twitch talking about
Speaker 2: their violence policy, Twitch says, quote violence on Twitch is
Speaker 2: taken seriously and it's considered a zero tolerance violation. All
Speaker 2: accounts associated with such activities will be indefinitely suspended. Then,
Speaker 2: on Kick we have quote, while violence may be contextual
Speaker 2: and there can be very degrees of impact, we do
Speaker 2: not permit content that depicts or incites abhorrent violence, including
Speaker 2: significant harm, suffering or death.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Twitch there I'm picking up from its guidelines
Speaker 1: has a more zero tolerance approach to violence, whereas the
Speaker 1: language of Kicks guidelines is more about context kind of
Speaker 1: seemingly that there might be some violence which is acceptable.
Speaker 2: And I think that's kind of the gray area that
Speaker 2: the Jean Palmanov Collective was operating in, which is they're saying,
Speaker 2: as long as it's not significant harm or suffering, then
Speaker 2: we can continue doing this.
Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned that some of the videos were titled
Speaker 1: using slurs against disabled people. Yes, there would be lots
Speaker 1: of social media platforms that would immediately disqualify you from
Speaker 1: being on what's kicks hate speech policy?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I'll explain that, but then I'll also say
Speaker 2: that the slurs were not ones that I had ever
Speaker 2: heard of.
Speaker 1: Okay, They're in.
Speaker 2: French and according to media part the Jean one of
Speaker 2: collective is the first French channel on Kick. So something
Speaker 2: that's struck me is possibly Kicks moderators didn't know what
Speaker 2: these words mean. I had to do quite a bit
Speaker 2: of research to figure out. So they were in Media
Speaker 2: Parts investigation and they were like, French people know what
Speaker 2: this means. And I was like, well, I'm not French,
Speaker 2: so I don't know and I have to look it up.
Speaker 2: Got it. So with that in mind, Twitch's guidelines say
Speaker 2: you must not quote use hateful slurs, either undirected or
Speaker 2: directed towards another individual. Kicks says quote context is crucial
Speaker 2: in evaluating hate speech. Words that may be acceptable in
Speaker 2: some situations can take on an entirely different meaning depending
Speaker 2: on the full context. Yeah, and they say, our aim
Speaker 2: is to take a considered approach to find balance between
Speaker 2: supporting free expression while ensuring we maintain a safe space
Speaker 2: for everyone.
Speaker 1: I mean, we have to take that at face value,
Speaker 1: I suppose, But in the kind of free speech slash
Speaker 1: hate speech era of miss and disinformation that we're in,
Speaker 1: there's probably a lot of red flags for a few
Speaker 1: people in that guideline on hate speech from Kick.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I'll also say that Twitch's guidelines have a
Speaker 2: number of very specific examples of what isn't isn't okay?
Speaker 2: And kicks guidelines don't Okay?
Speaker 1: How did kick come to be? Where? Where has it
Speaker 1: come from? I had not heard of it until probably
Speaker 1: the last few months.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So kick was launched in late twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: which might explain why you haven't heard of it? Who
Speaker 2: was started by two men? One of them is twenty
Speaker 2: nine year old Australian billionaire Edward Craven.
Speaker 1: Okay, so a Aussie?
Speaker 2: Yes, a co founder of this? Yeah. Craven made his
Speaker 2: money on an online crypto gambling platform called Steak dot com.
Speaker 2: And that's different to the Australian share trading business Steak,
Speaker 2: but they're spelled the same way stak e that's right,
Speaker 2: got it. Steak dot com, the gambling platform is actually
Speaker 2: not legal in Australia and it's not accessible to Australians
Speaker 2: because online casinos aren't legal here.
Speaker 1: Okay. So co founded by an Aussie but not actually
Speaker 1: available here in Australia.
Speaker 2: Yeah. If you go to their website from Australia, it'll
Speaker 2: say sorry, you can't access it, okay. Steak dot com
Speaker 2: has sponsored Premier League and F one teams and it
Speaker 2: has a partnership with the rapper Drake. So you might
Speaker 2: remember earlier this year when Drake was in Australia there
Speaker 2: was a video of him throwing a shoe at a
Speaker 2: drone yep, that was filming through his hotel window. Yep.
Speaker 2: It's never been explicitly stated, but it's pretty clear that
Speaker 2: that was actually an ad for Steak.
Speaker 1: Okay, So, Steak, the gambling platform co founded by an
Speaker 1: Aussie billionaire, has this pretty significant profile in other parts
Speaker 1: of the world. And Steak was founded by the same
Speaker 1: guy who founded Kick, the streaming platform. That's right, Okay,
Speaker 1: got it. Let's go back to this live streaming death though.
Speaker 1: Has Kick responded?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So Kick responded on their French language Twitter or
Speaker 2: x account. They said they were very sorry that they
Speaker 2: sent their condolences to the family. They said that the
Speaker 2: other streamers had been banned, so the other people working
Speaker 2: with gravin and it said it would work with authorities.
Speaker 1: What about legal ramifications. Are we expecting any criminal action
Speaker 1: or proceedings kind of both against the streamers involved but
Speaker 1: also the platform, because I guess it will be interesting
Speaker 1: to hear what they have to say about the twelve
Speaker 1: days leading up to this death or even the two
Speaker 1: years of violence that were there kind of in plain sight.
Speaker 2: So pretty quickly, France's AI and Tech minister, her name's
Speaker 2: Clara Schapaz. She sent out a statement saying Gravin's death
Speaker 2: and quote the violence he endured was an absolute horror.
Speaker 2: She said police were investigating and that she had referred
Speaker 2: the case to France's communication and regulator. Media Part has
Speaker 2: since responded by saying, so Media Part I should say,
Speaker 2: was the French outlet that investigated all of this months ago.
Speaker 2: It responded by saying it told her about what was
Speaker 2: happening before it published its investigation in December. It showed
Speaker 2: screenshots of emails and phone calls to her office that
Speaker 2: were never answered, and then at a press conference it
Speaker 2: asked her about it directly. She said France's media regulator
Speaker 2: had opened an investigation three days after Media Part published
Speaker 2: its allegations in December. But that's not necessarily clear to
Speaker 2: me if that's the investigation she was talking about in
Speaker 2: her statements.
Speaker 1: Okay, but either way, we know that a senior minister
Speaker 1: in the French government has been aware of the abuse
Speaker 1: on this platform.
Speaker 2: For some time for some time, or has at least
Speaker 2: been notified okay. It's also been reported in French media
Speaker 2: that Graven and the others on the stream were questioned
Speaker 2: by police earlier this year after media parts investigation. Graven
Speaker 2: is reported to have told police that he was to
Speaker 2: leave whenever he wanted and was staging the assaults to
Speaker 2: make money. According to the BBC, and autopsy has so
Speaker 2: far found Gravin's death was quote not due to trauma,
Speaker 2: so that would be like physical okay, trauma. But there'll
Speaker 2: be a lot more coming in the ensuing days and weeks.
Speaker 1: Wow, Lucy, a really distressing but fascinating story, another kind
Speaker 1: of chapter in the world of social media and streaming
Speaker 1: and all the ethical concerns that can come out of
Speaker 1: this kind of space. Yeah, thank you for taking us
Speaker 1: through that. Thanks Sam, and thank you for listening to
Speaker 1: today's episode. We'll be back a little later with the
Speaker 1: evening news headlines, but until then, take care of yourself.
Speaker 2: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda
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