WEBVTT - The Aussie platform behind a livestreamed death

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<v Speaker 1>Just a heads up before we get into it. Today's

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<v Speaker 1>episode contains distressing themes, including discussions of extreme violence. Already

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<v Speaker 1>and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday,

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<v Speaker 2>the twenty fifth of August.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Lucy Tassel, I'm Emma Gillespie.

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<v Speaker 2>Last week, the death of a Frenchman was live streamed

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<v Speaker 2>on a platform co founded by Australia's youngest billionaire called Kick.

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<v Speaker 2>Over two years, thousands of viewers watched the man who

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<v Speaker 2>died in his sleep being physically assaulted in real time

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<v Speaker 2>by several other people. In today's episode, we'll explain what

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<v Speaker 2>you should know about the man who died, the streaming

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<v Speaker 2>platform that saw the last two years of his life unfold,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Australian billionaire who founded it. Before we get

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<v Speaker 2>into today's episode, a quick word from our sponsor, Lucy.

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<v Speaker 1>This is an incredibly distressing case. Many aspects of it

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<v Speaker 1>defy belief. What actually happened and how did you find

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<v Speaker 1>out about this?

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<v Speaker 2>So last week I was scrolling through my social media.

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<v Speaker 2>It was before bed, which I know I'm not supposed

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<v Speaker 2>to do, but I was doing it anyway, and a

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<v Speaker 2>post appeared on my feed that really stopped me in

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<v Speaker 2>my tracks. So it was from an account that I

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<v Speaker 2>don't follow, but it was one of those things where

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<v Speaker 2>the algorithm will give you things to say, like this

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<v Speaker 2>is popping off, or maybe this seems like something you're

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<v Speaker 2>interested in. I think it came across my path because

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<v Speaker 2>it had hundreds of thousands of likes. Yep. This post

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<v Speaker 2>is from a person called Sean to Black. That's their username.

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<v Speaker 2>They're a twitch streamer. More about that later if you

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<v Speaker 2>don't know what a twitch streamer is. But here's what

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<v Speaker 2>the post said. Quote French kickstreamers killed a guy live

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<v Speaker 2>after abusing him physically and mentally for months. Did I

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<v Speaker 2>read that right? That's the whole quote.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And when I hear that and read that quote,

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<v Speaker 1>I also had the same response. We do read shocking

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<v Speaker 1>things online all the time. They don't always turn out

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<v Speaker 1>to be true. Yeah, but in this case, this is

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<v Speaker 1>a real thing. This actually happened.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's killed is something that would need to be

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<v Speaker 2>born out in courts, but certainly in the sense that

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<v Speaker 2>there was a man in France who died live on

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<v Speaker 2>a live stream, that is true. And as you said,

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<v Speaker 2>we see things online all the time, we investigate them.

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<v Speaker 2>They don't necessarily come to anything, but this came to something.

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<v Speaker 2>In the replies to this post, I found a thread

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<v Speaker 2>of videos involving a man who went by the username

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<v Speaker 2>Jean Pormanov. In the videos, he's attacked over and over

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<v Speaker 2>again by two other men. There are also many videos

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<v Speaker 2>of them laughing at him, making fun of him, humiliating him.

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<v Speaker 2>They're very upsetting. I should say they're all in French,

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<v Speaker 2>but they're definitely upset. Even if you don't speak French.

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<v Speaker 2>My French is a little bit rusty, but I can

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<v Speaker 2>tell you many of the videos that I saw in

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<v Speaker 2>this thread, which appeared to have been clipped and reposted

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<v Speaker 2>on TikTok as well as I was seeing it on Twitter.

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<v Speaker 2>But they're all over the place. They show this man,

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<v Speaker 2>Jean Pomanov crying. They have captions telling viewers jp plur,

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<v Speaker 2>which means like Jean Pomanov is crying in this clip.

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<v Speaker 2>This man's real name is Raphael Gravin. That's how we'll

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<v Speaker 2>be referring to him for the rest of the episode.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is a man who died.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, there's also a clip that's been shared of the

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<v Speaker 2>men who streamed on this platform kick with him discovering

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<v Speaker 2>that he has died, that was being shared in censored

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<v Speaker 2>and uncensored forms online. Gravin is wrapped in a douna

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<v Speaker 2>and one of the men throws a plastic bottle at

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<v Speaker 2>him to try to wake him up, at which point

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<v Speaker 2>they discover that he has died.

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<v Speaker 1>What do we know about the days leading up to

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<v Speaker 1>this man's death? Is there footage before those final moments

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<v Speaker 1>that helps us kind of piece together what's happened.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of footage, and that is because this

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<v Speaker 2>group that he was part of had been filming NonStop

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<v Speaker 2>for nearly three hundred hours, which works out to be

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<v Speaker 2>just over twelve days, So they had been living and

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<v Speaker 2>including short bouts of sleep, but not extended periods of

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<v Speaker 2>sleep this entire time.

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<v Speaker 1>So a twelve day essentially NonStop live stream.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes featuring Graven Graven, Yeah, featuring this man Raphael Graven,

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<v Speaker 2>who goes by this name Jean Pormonov. It's also one

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<v Speaker 2>of the names of the streaming channel as Jean Pomanov,

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<v Speaker 2>which can be kind of confusing, which is partly why

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<v Speaker 2>we'll be referring to him by his actual name.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so over those twelve days, what was going on

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<v Speaker 1>for him? Where was he at? Is he included in

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<v Speaker 1>the footage what was happening to him?

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<v Speaker 2>So he's there basically the entire time during the stream,

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<v Speaker 2>he is physically assaulted and subjected to public humiliation. I

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<v Speaker 2>won't get into all the details, but some of this

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<v Speaker 2>included the other men in this stream shocking him with electricity,

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<v Speaker 2>repeatedly interrupting his sleep, parading him on the street in

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<v Speaker 2>a wig holding a sign saying he would provide free

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<v Speaker 2>sex acts.

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<v Speaker 1>So somewhere in France do we know exactly where?

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<v Speaker 2>In Nice, France, in the town of Nice. It's been

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<v Speaker 2>reported that Graven had a pre existing heart condition. At

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<v Speaker 2>one point in the live stream, he said he wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to go to the hospital. In response, the others on

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<v Speaker 2>the stream told him to sit down and shut up.

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<v Speaker 2>At another point in the stream, he looked directly at

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<v Speaker 2>the camera and said he wanted to stop. They obviously

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<v Speaker 2>didn't stop. France's Tech minister, so Minister for Technology has

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<v Speaker 2>said as many as twenty thousand people watched this live

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<v Speaker 2>stream at some point over the twelve days it was

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<v Speaker 2>going on.

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<v Speaker 1>Lucy The biggest question that keeps coming up for me,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm sure a lot of listeners right now, is

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<v Speaker 1>just this feeling of how could this happen? How could

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<v Speaker 1>this go on for so long? For such a long time?

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<v Speaker 1>Were there any commenters, anyone watching the stream who expressed

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<v Speaker 1>their kind of concern or disappointment with what was going on?

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<v Speaker 2>So I also have the same questions, and my kind

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<v Speaker 2>of search for answers after seeing this led me to

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<v Speaker 2>an investigation actually that was published in December, so eight

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<v Speaker 2>nine months ago from a French outlet called Media Parts.

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<v Speaker 2>So they had investigated this group of streamers, which included Gravin.

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<v Speaker 1>Did they find anything out about the identities of the

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<v Speaker 1>other guys involved?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we know what their pseudonyms are. So there's four

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<v Speaker 2>men involved in the majority of videos released by this

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<v Speaker 2>streaming collective. So there's under their pseudonyms there's Naruto, which

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<v Speaker 2>is like an anime character, but this guy took that name,

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<v Speaker 2>someone called Safine, someone called Kudu, and Jean Pormanov or JP.

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<v Speaker 2>That's Gravin. As I've said, of the four, Kudu and

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<v Speaker 2>Gravin were the targets of violence, and Naruto and Safine

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<v Speaker 2>were the perpetrators. Okay, that was kind of the set dynamic,

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<v Speaker 2>and there were other men. It seemed to my eyes

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<v Speaker 2>to only be men coming in and out of the videos,

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<v Speaker 2>But those are the main four, all right. Their videos

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<v Speaker 2>were often titled using slurs against people with disability. Media

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<v Speaker 2>Parts said Kudu is disabled and is under a guardianship,

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<v Speaker 2>while Gravin was a former soldier. The investigation found Naruto

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<v Speaker 2>and Safine would make fun of Kudu and Gravin's mental capacity,

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<v Speaker 2>and as I've said, their videos involved a seemingly unlimited

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<v Speaker 2>amount of physical violence, humiliation, and psychological torment.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm still trying to understand one aspect of this. There's

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<v Speaker 1>these kind of four men appear recurrently on this channel,

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<v Speaker 1>on these live streams two who are the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>physical victims of torment? Were they being held captive? Do

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<v Speaker 1>we know why they kind of continued to appear in

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<v Speaker 1>these videos?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this was my question too, because why would you

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<v Speaker 2>keep coming back if you're being physically assaulted on camera

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<v Speaker 2>for thousands of people to see. It's a very complicated situation.

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<v Speaker 2>So in a video that I saw through Media Parts investigation,

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<v Speaker 2>Naruto and again I'm sorry I don't like it's his

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<v Speaker 2>actual name has not been released. That's a pseudonym. He

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<v Speaker 2>speaks to this. He's on stream with the other three

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<v Speaker 2>guys in frame. He says, Kudo and Raphael Gravin are

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<v Speaker 2>free to leave whenever they want. It's obviously more complicated

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<v Speaker 2>than that. There's another video shared by media Part where

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<v Speaker 2>Gravin is doing a lie detector test. He's asked if

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<v Speaker 2>he would leave if he could. He says yes, and

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<v Speaker 2>then it's like verified, that's true, he's not lying. And

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<v Speaker 2>then he's asked if he stays because of the money,

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<v Speaker 2>and then he says yes, and then again tick Like,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, this is not scientific. These guys are operating

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<v Speaker 2>out of an apartment in Nice. They're not doing like

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<v Speaker 2>a proper yeah polygraph test. But that's he seems to

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<v Speaker 2>be telling the truth that he can leave, but he

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<v Speaker 2>chooses to stay because he's getting paid to do this.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, tell me about the money element then.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So all of these people on this channel benefited

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<v Speaker 2>financially from it because their viewers can send the money directly.

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<v Speaker 2>Although I will say there's one kind of complication, which

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<v Speaker 2>is that Kudu is under a specific kind of guardianship,

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<v Speaker 2>which Naruto at one point in one of these videos

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<v Speaker 2>says that it means there are difficulties paying him. But

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<v Speaker 2>then I mean, for me, that raises questions.

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<v Speaker 1>About like where are the guardians?

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<v Speaker 2>Where are the guardians? I mean, these are adult men,

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<v Speaker 2>but this guy has been designated by the government as

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<v Speaker 2>someone who needs a guardianship.

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<v Speaker 1>And there's still so much we don't know about the

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<v Speaker 1>circumstance of the two victims of the physical violence. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, in terms of whatever their capacity was to

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<v Speaker 1>consent to this participation.

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<v Speaker 2>And can you even consent to be physically assaulted? That's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of a legal question. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So I want to, now, Lucy, just understand more about

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<v Speaker 1>this platform Kick. We know it's some kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>live streaming service, there's some kind of monetization capacity for users.

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<v Speaker 1>But what is this platform? Where did it come from?

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<v Speaker 2>I think the best way to explain Kick is to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about its rival Twitch. So Twitch is kind of

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<v Speaker 2>the name brand streaming platform online that you've probably heard of,

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<v Speaker 2>but if you haven't heard of it, it's a platform

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<v Speaker 2>primarily used to stream video games, Like so you would

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<v Speaker 2>stream yourself playing a video game to an audience. They

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<v Speaker 2>could see your screen, and then they can also see

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<v Speaker 2>you in the corner of the typically in the corner

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<v Speaker 2>of the screen, but I mean it's used for lots

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<v Speaker 2>of things. That's the main purpose. And fellow users can

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<v Speaker 2>comment on streams as they're happening, so there'll be like

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<v Speaker 2>a running chat log along the side of the video. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's true for both Twitch and Kick. Twitch did it first.

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<v Speaker 2>On Twitch, you can give the streamers you watch money,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, through a paid subscription. So Twitch is quite regulated.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not afraid to boot off popular users if they

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<v Speaker 2>say offensive things. And there are games that you're not

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<v Speaker 2>allowed to stream yourself playing. Okay, So in terms of Kick,

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<v Speaker 2>many of these things are the same. It's a streaming

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<v Speaker 2>platform primarily used for video games, and you can pay

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<v Speaker 2>people that you watch, like you can say, I want

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<v Speaker 2>to subscribe to your channel. Here is five bucks a month,

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<v Speaker 2>and then that adds up and you get a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of money. If we compare the platform's content guidelines, that's

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<v Speaker 2>where the differences are, right. So from Twitch talking about

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<v Speaker 2>their violence policy, Twitch says, quote violence on Twitch is

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<v Speaker 2>taken seriously and it's considered a zero tolerance violation. All

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<v Speaker 2>accounts associated with such activities will be indefinitely suspended. Then,

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<v Speaker 2>on Kick we have quote, while violence may be contextual

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<v Speaker 2>and there can be very degrees of impact, we do

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<v Speaker 2>not permit content that depicts or incites abhorrent violence, including

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<v Speaker 2>significant harm, suffering or death.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So Twitch there I'm picking up from its guidelines

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<v Speaker 1>has a more zero tolerance approach to violence, whereas the

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<v Speaker 1>language of Kicks guidelines is more about context kind of

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<v Speaker 1>seemingly that there might be some violence which is acceptable.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that's kind of the gray area that

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<v Speaker 2>the Jean Palmanov Collective was operating in, which is they're saying,

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<v Speaker 2>as long as it's not significant harm or suffering, then

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<v Speaker 2>we can continue doing this.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, you mentioned that some of the videos were titled

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<v Speaker 1>using slurs against disabled people. Yes, there would be lots

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<v Speaker 1>of social media platforms that would immediately disqualify you from

0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.080
<v Speaker 1>being on what's kicks hate speech policy?

0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well I'll explain that, but then I'll also say

0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.240
<v Speaker 2>that the slurs were not ones that I had ever

0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:55.719
<v Speaker 2>heard of.

0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, They're in.

0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.320
<v Speaker 2>French and according to media part the Jean one of

0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:04.600
<v Speaker 2>collective is the first French channel on Kick. So something

0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:08.559
<v Speaker 2>that's struck me is possibly Kicks moderators didn't know what

0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:10.840
<v Speaker 2>these words mean. I had to do quite a bit

0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.120
<v Speaker 2>of research to figure out. So they were in Media

0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:15.880
<v Speaker 2>Parts investigation and they were like, French people know what

0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:17.760
<v Speaker 2>this means. And I was like, well, I'm not French,

0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:19.240
<v Speaker 2>so I don't know and I have to look it up.

0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:23.200
<v Speaker 2>Got it. So with that in mind, Twitch's guidelines say

0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.600
<v Speaker 2>you must not quote use hateful slurs, either undirected or

0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:32.280
<v Speaker 2>directed towards another individual. Kicks says quote context is crucial

0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.640
<v Speaker 2>in evaluating hate speech. Words that may be acceptable in

0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:39.320
<v Speaker 2>some situations can take on an entirely different meaning depending

0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:44.400
<v Speaker 2>on the full context. Yeah, and they say, our aim

0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.160
<v Speaker 2>is to take a considered approach to find balance between

0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:51.440
<v Speaker 2>supporting free expression while ensuring we maintain a safe space

0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:52.480
<v Speaker 2>for everyone.

0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.319
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we have to take that at face value,

0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.080
<v Speaker 1>I suppose, But in the kind of free speech slash

0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.400
<v Speaker 1>hate speech era of miss and disinformation that we're in,

0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.240
<v Speaker 1>there's probably a lot of red flags for a few

0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.120
<v Speaker 1>people in that guideline on hate speech from Kick.

0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.320
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I'll also say that Twitch's guidelines have a

0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.840
<v Speaker 2>number of very specific examples of what isn't isn't okay?

0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.400
<v Speaker 2>And kicks guidelines don't Okay?

0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.960
<v Speaker 1>How did kick come to be? Where? Where has it

0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.440
<v Speaker 1>come from? I had not heard of it until probably

0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:25.360
<v Speaker 1>the last few months.

0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So kick was launched in late twenty twenty two,

0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:30.800
<v Speaker 2>which might explain why you haven't heard of it? Who

0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.600
<v Speaker 2>was started by two men? One of them is twenty

0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.840
<v Speaker 2>nine year old Australian billionaire Edward Craven.

0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:37.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so a Aussie?

0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.880
<v Speaker 2>Yes, a co founder of this? Yeah. Craven made his

0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:45.760
<v Speaker 2>money on an online crypto gambling platform called Steak dot com.

0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:50.000
<v Speaker 2>And that's different to the Australian share trading business Steak,

0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.040
<v Speaker 2>but they're spelled the same way stak e that's right,

0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:58.000
<v Speaker 2>got it. Steak dot com, the gambling platform is actually

0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.960
<v Speaker 2>not legal in Australia and it's not accessible to Australians

0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:04.520
<v Speaker 2>because online casinos aren't legal here.

0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So co founded by an Aussie but not actually

0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.240
<v Speaker 1>available here in Australia.

0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:11.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. If you go to their website from Australia, it'll

0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:16.200
<v Speaker 2>say sorry, you can't access it, okay. Steak dot com

0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.600
<v Speaker 2>has sponsored Premier League and F one teams and it

0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.680
<v Speaker 2>has a partnership with the rapper Drake. So you might

0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:26.040
<v Speaker 2>remember earlier this year when Drake was in Australia there

0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:28.480
<v Speaker 2>was a video of him throwing a shoe at a

0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.480
<v Speaker 2>drone yep, that was filming through his hotel window. Yep.

0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.160
<v Speaker 2>It's never been explicitly stated, but it's pretty clear that

0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:37.000
<v Speaker 2>that was actually an ad for Steak.

0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.040
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So, Steak, the gambling platform co founded by an

0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:46.080
<v Speaker 1>Aussie billionaire, has this pretty significant profile in other parts

0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.080
<v Speaker 1>of the world. And Steak was founded by the same

0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.360
<v Speaker 1>guy who founded Kick, the streaming platform. That's right, Okay,

0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:56.440
<v Speaker 1>got it. Let's go back to this live streaming death though.

0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:58.760
<v Speaker 1>Has Kick responded?

0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:03.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So Kick responded on their French language Twitter or

0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.400
<v Speaker 2>x account. They said they were very sorry that they

0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:10.160
<v Speaker 2>sent their condolences to the family. They said that the

0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:14.000
<v Speaker 2>other streamers had been banned, so the other people working

0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:17.480
<v Speaker 2>with gravin and it said it would work with authorities.

0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:22.240
<v Speaker 1>What about legal ramifications. Are we expecting any criminal action

0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:26.840
<v Speaker 1>or proceedings kind of both against the streamers involved but

0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:30.800
<v Speaker 1>also the platform, because I guess it will be interesting

0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:32.640
<v Speaker 1>to hear what they have to say about the twelve

0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:34.920
<v Speaker 1>days leading up to this death or even the two

0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:38.240
<v Speaker 1>years of violence that were there kind of in plain sight.

0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:43.280
<v Speaker 2>So pretty quickly, France's AI and Tech minister, her name's

0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Clara Schapaz. She sent out a statement saying Gravin's death

0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.680
<v Speaker 2>and quote the violence he endured was an absolute horror.

0:16:51.040 --> 0:16:53.720
<v Speaker 2>She said police were investigating and that she had referred

0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:57.320
<v Speaker 2>the case to France's communication and regulator. Media Part has

0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.600
<v Speaker 2>since responded by saying, so Media Part I should say,

0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.480
<v Speaker 2>was the French outlet that investigated all of this months ago.

0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:07.159
<v Speaker 2>It responded by saying it told her about what was

0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:11.560
<v Speaker 2>happening before it published its investigation in December. It showed

0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.520
<v Speaker 2>screenshots of emails and phone calls to her office that

0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.879
<v Speaker 2>were never answered, and then at a press conference it

0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:22.480
<v Speaker 2>asked her about it directly. She said France's media regulator

0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.560
<v Speaker 2>had opened an investigation three days after Media Part published

0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.800
<v Speaker 2>its allegations in December. But that's not necessarily clear to

0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:34.760
<v Speaker 2>me if that's the investigation she was talking about in

0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:36.320
<v Speaker 2>her statements.

0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay, but either way, we know that a senior minister

0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.800
<v Speaker 1>in the French government has been aware of the abuse

0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:44.000
<v Speaker 1>on this platform.

0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:45.400
<v Speaker 2>For some time for some time, or has at least

0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.159
<v Speaker 2>been notified okay. It's also been reported in French media

0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:52.680
<v Speaker 2>that Graven and the others on the stream were questioned

0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:57.400
<v Speaker 2>by police earlier this year after media parts investigation. Graven

0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.320
<v Speaker 2>is reported to have told police that he was to

0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:03.960
<v Speaker 2>leave whenever he wanted and was staging the assaults to

0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.359
<v Speaker 2>make money. According to the BBC, and autopsy has so

0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.960
<v Speaker 2>far found Gravin's death was quote not due to trauma,

0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.160
<v Speaker 2>so that would be like physical okay, trauma. But there'll

0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.200
<v Speaker 2>be a lot more coming in the ensuing days and weeks.

0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:23.320
<v Speaker 1>Wow, Lucy, a really distressing but fascinating story, another kind

0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.960
<v Speaker 1>of chapter in the world of social media and streaming

0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:29.920
<v Speaker 1>and all the ethical concerns that can come out of

0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.840
<v Speaker 1>this kind of space. Yeah, thank you for taking us

0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.639
<v Speaker 1>through that. Thanks Sam, and thank you for listening to

0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.679
<v Speaker 1>today's episode. We'll be back a little later with the

0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.520
<v Speaker 1>evening news headlines, but until then, take care of yourself.

0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:47.960
<v Speaker 2>My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:52.359
<v Speaker 2>bunge Lung Chalcotin woman from Gadigl country. The Daily oz

0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.159
<v Speaker 2>acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of

0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.520
<v Speaker 2>the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and

0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:01.600
<v Speaker 2>Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to

0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.520
<v Speaker 2>the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.