1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Just a heads up before we get into it. Today's 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: episode contains distressing themes, including discussions of extreme violence. Already 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh, 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: now it makes sense. 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Monday, 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: the twenty fifth of August. 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: I'm Lucy Tassel, I'm Emma Gillespie. 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 2: Last week, the death of a Frenchman was live streamed 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 2: on a platform co founded by Australia's youngest billionaire called Kick. 10 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 2: Over two years, thousands of viewers watched the man who 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: died in his sleep being physically assaulted in real time 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 2: by several other people. In today's episode, we'll explain what 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 2: you should know about the man who died, the streaming 14 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,599 Speaker 2: platform that saw the last two years of his life unfold, 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: and the Australian billionaire who founded it. Before we get 16 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 2: into today's episode, a quick word from our sponsor, Lucy. 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 1: This is an incredibly distressing case. Many aspects of it 18 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: defy belief. What actually happened and how did you find 19 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: out about this? 20 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 2: So last week I was scrolling through my social media. 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 2: It was before bed, which I know I'm not supposed 22 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 2: to do, but I was doing it anyway, and a 23 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: post appeared on my feed that really stopped me in 24 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 2: my tracks. So it was from an account that I 25 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 2: don't follow, but it was one of those things where 26 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: the algorithm will give you things to say, like this 27 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 2: is popping off, or maybe this seems like something you're 28 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 2: interested in. I think it came across my path because 29 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: it had hundreds of thousands of likes. Yep. This post 30 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: is from a person called Sean to Black. That's their username. 31 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 2: They're a twitch streamer. More about that later if you 32 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: don't know what a twitch streamer is. But here's what 33 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: the post said. Quote French kickstreamers killed a guy live 34 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: after abusing him physically and mentally for months. Did I 35 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 2: read that right? That's the whole quote. 36 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. And when I hear that and read that quote, 37 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: I also had the same response. We do read shocking 38 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: things online all the time. They don't always turn out 39 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: to be true. Yeah, but in this case, this is 40 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: a real thing. This actually happened. 41 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's killed is something that would need to be 42 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 2: born out in courts, but certainly in the sense that 43 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: there was a man in France who died live on 44 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 2: a live stream, that is true. And as you said, 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: we see things online all the time, we investigate them. 46 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: They don't necessarily come to anything, but this came to something. 47 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: In the replies to this post, I found a thread 48 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: of videos involving a man who went by the username 49 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: Jean Pormanov. In the videos, he's attacked over and over 50 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: again by two other men. There are also many videos 51 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: of them laughing at him, making fun of him, humiliating him. 52 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 2: They're very upsetting. I should say they're all in French, 53 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 2: but they're definitely upset. Even if you don't speak French. 54 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: My French is a little bit rusty, but I can 55 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: tell you many of the videos that I saw in 56 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 2: this thread, which appeared to have been clipped and reposted 57 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 2: on TikTok as well as I was seeing it on Twitter. 58 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: But they're all over the place. They show this man, 59 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 2: Jean Pomanov crying. They have captions telling viewers jp plur, 60 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 2: which means like Jean Pomanov is crying in this clip. 61 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 2: This man's real name is Raphael Gravin. That's how we'll 62 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: be referring to him for the rest of the episode. 63 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: So this is a man who died. 64 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 2: Yes, there's also a clip that's been shared of the 65 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: men who streamed on this platform kick with him discovering 66 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: that he has died, that was being shared in censored 67 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: and uncensored forms online. Gravin is wrapped in a douna 68 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: and one of the men throws a plastic bottle at 69 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 2: him to try to wake him up, at which point 70 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: they discover that he has died. 71 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: What do we know about the days leading up to 72 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: this man's death? Is there footage before those final moments 73 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: that helps us kind of piece together what's happened. 74 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: There's a lot of footage, and that is because this 75 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: group that he was part of had been filming NonStop 76 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: for nearly three hundred hours, which works out to be 77 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 2: just over twelve days, So they had been living and 78 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 2: including short bouts of sleep, but not extended periods of 79 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 2: sleep this entire time. 80 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: So a twelve day essentially NonStop live stream. 81 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 2: Yes featuring Graven Graven, Yeah, featuring this man Raphael Graven, 82 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 2: who goes by this name Jean Pormonov. It's also one 83 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: of the names of the streaming channel as Jean Pomanov, 84 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 2: which can be kind of confusing, which is partly why 85 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 2: we'll be referring to him by his actual name. 86 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: Okay, so over those twelve days, what was going on 87 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: for him? Where was he at? Is he included in 88 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: the footage what was happening to him? 89 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 2: So he's there basically the entire time during the stream, 90 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 2: he is physically assaulted and subjected to public humiliation. I 91 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 2: won't get into all the details, but some of this 92 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 2: included the other men in this stream shocking him with electricity, 93 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 2: repeatedly interrupting his sleep, parading him on the street in 94 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: a wig holding a sign saying he would provide free 95 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:18,239 Speaker 2: sex acts. 96 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: So somewhere in France do we know exactly where? 97 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 2: In Nice, France, in the town of Nice. It's been 98 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: reported that Graven had a pre existing heart condition. At 99 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 2: one point in the live stream, he said he wanted 100 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 2: to go to the hospital. In response, the others on 101 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: the stream told him to sit down and shut up. 102 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 2: At another point in the stream, he looked directly at 103 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: the camera and said he wanted to stop. They obviously 104 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 2: didn't stop. France's Tech minister, so Minister for Technology has 105 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 2: said as many as twenty thousand people watched this live 106 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: stream at some point over the twelve days it was 107 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 2: going on. 108 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: Lucy The biggest question that keeps coming up for me, 109 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: and I'm sure a lot of listeners right now, is 110 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: just this feeling of how could this happen? How could 111 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: this go on for so long? For such a long time? 112 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: Were there any commenters, anyone watching the stream who expressed 113 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: their kind of concern or disappointment with what was going on? 114 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 2: So I also have the same questions, and my kind 115 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: of search for answers after seeing this led me to 116 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 2: an investigation actually that was published in December, so eight 117 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: nine months ago from a French outlet called Media Parts. 118 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: So they had investigated this group of streamers, which included Gravin. 119 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: Did they find anything out about the identities of the 120 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: other guys involved? 121 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, we know what their pseudonyms are. So there's four 122 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: men involved in the majority of videos released by this 123 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: streaming collective. So there's under their pseudonyms there's Naruto, which 124 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 2: is like an anime character, but this guy took that name, 125 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: someone called Safine, someone called Kudu, and Jean Pormanov or JP. 126 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 2: That's Gravin. As I've said, of the four, Kudu and 127 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: Gravin were the targets of violence, and Naruto and Safine 128 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: were the perpetrators. Okay, that was kind of the set dynamic, 129 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: and there were other men. It seemed to my eyes 130 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: to only be men coming in and out of the videos, 131 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: But those are the main four, all right. Their videos 132 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: were often titled using slurs against people with disability. Media 133 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: Parts said Kudu is disabled and is under a guardianship, 134 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: while Gravin was a former soldier. The investigation found Naruto 135 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 2: and Safine would make fun of Kudu and Gravin's mental capacity, 136 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: and as I've said, their videos involved a seemingly unlimited 137 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: amount of physical violence, humiliation, and psychological torment. 138 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: I'm still trying to understand one aspect of this. There's 139 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: these kind of four men appear recurrently on this channel, 140 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: on these live streams two who are the kind of 141 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: physical victims of torment? Were they being held captive? Do 142 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: we know why they kind of continued to appear in 143 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: these videos? 144 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, this was my question too, because why would you 145 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: keep coming back if you're being physically assaulted on camera 146 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: for thousands of people to see. It's a very complicated situation. 147 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 2: So in a video that I saw through Media Parts investigation, 148 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 2: Naruto and again I'm sorry I don't like it's his 149 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: actual name has not been released. That's a pseudonym. He 150 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: speaks to this. He's on stream with the other three 151 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 2: guys in frame. He says, Kudo and Raphael Gravin are 152 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,359 Speaker 2: free to leave whenever they want. It's obviously more complicated 153 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 2: than that. There's another video shared by media Part where 154 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 2: Gravin is doing a lie detector test. He's asked if 155 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 2: he would leave if he could. He says yes, and 156 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 2: then it's like verified, that's true, he's not lying. And 157 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 2: then he's asked if he stays because of the money, 158 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 2: and then he says yes, and then again tick Like, 159 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 2: I mean, this is not scientific. These guys are operating 160 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: out of an apartment in Nice. They're not doing like 161 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 2: a proper yeah polygraph test. But that's he seems to 162 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: be telling the truth that he can leave, but he 163 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 2: chooses to stay because he's getting paid to do this. 164 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: Okay, tell me about the money element then. 165 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:28,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, So all of these people on this channel benefited 166 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: financially from it because their viewers can send the money directly. 167 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: Although I will say there's one kind of complication, which 168 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 2: is that Kudu is under a specific kind of guardianship, 169 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 2: which Naruto at one point in one of these videos 170 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 2: says that it means there are difficulties paying him. But 171 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 2: then I mean, for me, that raises questions. 172 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: About like where are the guardians? 173 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: Where are the guardians? I mean, these are adult men, 174 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: but this guy has been designated by the government as 175 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: someone who needs a guardianship. 176 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: And there's still so much we don't know about the 177 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: circumstance of the two victims of the physical violence. Yeah, 178 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of whatever their capacity was to 179 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: consent to this participation. 180 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 2: And can you even consent to be physically assaulted? That's 181 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 2: kind of a legal question. Yeah. 182 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: So I want to, now, Lucy, just understand more about 183 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: this platform Kick. We know it's some kind of a 184 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: live streaming service, there's some kind of monetization capacity for users. 185 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: But what is this platform? Where did it come from? 186 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 2: I think the best way to explain Kick is to 187 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 2: talk about its rival Twitch. So Twitch is kind of 188 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: the name brand streaming platform online that you've probably heard of, 189 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 2: but if you haven't heard of it, it's a platform 190 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 2: primarily used to stream video games, Like so you would 191 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: stream yourself playing a video game to an audience. They 192 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 2: could see your screen, and then they can also see 193 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 2: you in the corner of the typically in the corner 194 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: of the screen, but I mean it's used for lots 195 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 2: of things. That's the main purpose. And fellow users can 196 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 2: comment on streams as they're happening, so there'll be like 197 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: a running chat log along the side of the video. Yeah, 198 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 2: that's true for both Twitch and Kick. Twitch did it first. 199 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 2: On Twitch, you can give the streamers you watch money, 200 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:12,239 Speaker 2: for example, through a paid subscription. So Twitch is quite regulated. 201 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: It's not afraid to boot off popular users if they 202 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: say offensive things. And there are games that you're not 203 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 2: allowed to stream yourself playing. Okay, So in terms of Kick, 204 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 2: many of these things are the same. It's a streaming 205 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 2: platform primarily used for video games, and you can pay 206 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 2: people that you watch, like you can say, I want 207 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 2: to subscribe to your channel. Here is five bucks a month, 208 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 2: and then that adds up and you get a lot 209 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: of money. If we compare the platform's content guidelines, that's 210 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: where the differences are, right. So from Twitch talking about 211 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: their violence policy, Twitch says, quote violence on Twitch is 212 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: taken seriously and it's considered a zero tolerance violation. All 213 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 2: accounts associated with such activities will be indefinitely suspended. Then, 214 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: on Kick we have quote, while violence may be contextual 215 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: and there can be very degrees of impact, we do 216 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: not permit content that depicts or incites abhorrent violence, including 217 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: significant harm, suffering or death. 218 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,239 Speaker 1: Okay, So Twitch there I'm picking up from its guidelines 219 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 1: has a more zero tolerance approach to violence, whereas the 220 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: language of Kicks guidelines is more about context kind of 221 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: seemingly that there might be some violence which is acceptable. 222 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: And I think that's kind of the gray area that 223 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: the Jean Palmanov Collective was operating in, which is they're saying, 224 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 2: as long as it's not significant harm or suffering, then 225 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 2: we can continue doing this. 226 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: Okay, you mentioned that some of the videos were titled 227 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: using slurs against disabled people. Yes, there would be lots 228 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: of social media platforms that would immediately disqualify you from 229 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: being on what's kicks hate speech policy? 230 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, well I'll explain that, but then I'll also say 231 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 2: that the slurs were not ones that I had ever 232 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 2: heard of. 233 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: Okay, They're in. 234 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 2: French and according to media part the Jean one of 235 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 2: collective is the first French channel on Kick. So something 236 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 2: that's struck me is possibly Kicks moderators didn't know what 237 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 2: these words mean. I had to do quite a bit 238 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: of research to figure out. So they were in Media 239 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: Parts investigation and they were like, French people know what 240 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: this means. And I was like, well, I'm not French, 241 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: so I don't know and I have to look it up. 242 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 2: Got it. So with that in mind, Twitch's guidelines say 243 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: you must not quote use hateful slurs, either undirected or 244 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: directed towards another individual. Kicks says quote context is crucial 245 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: in evaluating hate speech. Words that may be acceptable in 246 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 2: some situations can take on an entirely different meaning depending 247 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 2: on the full context. Yeah, and they say, our aim 248 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 2: is to take a considered approach to find balance between 249 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 2: supporting free expression while ensuring we maintain a safe space 250 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 2: for everyone. 251 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: I mean, we have to take that at face value, 252 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: I suppose, But in the kind of free speech slash 253 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: hate speech era of miss and disinformation that we're in, 254 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: there's probably a lot of red flags for a few 255 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: people in that guideline on hate speech from Kick. 256 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: Yes, and I'll also say that Twitch's guidelines have a 257 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: number of very specific examples of what isn't isn't okay? 258 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 2: And kicks guidelines don't Okay? 259 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: How did kick come to be? Where? Where has it 260 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: come from? I had not heard of it until probably 261 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: the last few months. 262 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. So kick was launched in late twenty twenty two, 263 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 2: which might explain why you haven't heard of it? Who 264 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: was started by two men? One of them is twenty 265 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: nine year old Australian billionaire Edward Craven. 266 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: Okay, so a Aussie? 267 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: Yes, a co founder of this? Yeah. Craven made his 268 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 2: money on an online crypto gambling platform called Steak dot com. 269 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: And that's different to the Australian share trading business Steak, 270 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 2: but they're spelled the same way stak e that's right, 271 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: got it. Steak dot com, the gambling platform is actually 272 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 2: not legal in Australia and it's not accessible to Australians 273 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: because online casinos aren't legal here. 274 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: Okay. So co founded by an Aussie but not actually 275 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: available here in Australia. 276 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. If you go to their website from Australia, it'll 277 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: say sorry, you can't access it, okay. Steak dot com 278 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 2: has sponsored Premier League and F one teams and it 279 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 2: has a partnership with the rapper Drake. So you might 280 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 2: remember earlier this year when Drake was in Australia there 281 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 2: was a video of him throwing a shoe at a 282 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: drone yep, that was filming through his hotel window. Yep. 283 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: It's never been explicitly stated, but it's pretty clear that 284 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: that was actually an ad for Steak. 285 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: Okay, So, Steak, the gambling platform co founded by an 286 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: Aussie billionaire, has this pretty significant profile in other parts 287 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: of the world. And Steak was founded by the same 288 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: guy who founded Kick, the streaming platform. That's right, Okay, 289 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: got it. Let's go back to this live streaming death though. 290 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: Has Kick responded? 291 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? So Kick responded on their French language Twitter or 292 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: x account. They said they were very sorry that they 293 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: sent their condolences to the family. They said that the 294 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 2: other streamers had been banned, so the other people working 295 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: with gravin and it said it would work with authorities. 296 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: What about legal ramifications. Are we expecting any criminal action 297 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: or proceedings kind of both against the streamers involved but 298 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: also the platform, because I guess it will be interesting 299 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: to hear what they have to say about the twelve 300 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: days leading up to this death or even the two 301 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: years of violence that were there kind of in plain sight. 302 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: So pretty quickly, France's AI and Tech minister, her name's 303 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 2: Clara Schapaz. She sent out a statement saying Gravin's death 304 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 2: and quote the violence he endured was an absolute horror. 305 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 2: She said police were investigating and that she had referred 306 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: the case to France's communication and regulator. Media Part has 307 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 2: since responded by saying, so Media Part I should say, 308 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: was the French outlet that investigated all of this months ago. 309 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 2: It responded by saying it told her about what was 310 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 2: happening before it published its investigation in December. It showed 311 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 2: screenshots of emails and phone calls to her office that 312 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 2: were never answered, and then at a press conference it 313 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 2: asked her about it directly. She said France's media regulator 314 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: had opened an investigation three days after Media Part published 315 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 2: its allegations in December. But that's not necessarily clear to 316 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: me if that's the investigation she was talking about in 317 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 2: her statements. 318 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: Okay, but either way, we know that a senior minister 319 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: in the French government has been aware of the abuse 320 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: on this platform. 321 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 2: For some time for some time, or has at least 322 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 2: been notified okay. It's also been reported in French media 323 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 2: that Graven and the others on the stream were questioned 324 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 2: by police earlier this year after media parts investigation. Graven 325 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: is reported to have told police that he was to 326 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 2: leave whenever he wanted and was staging the assaults to 327 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 2: make money. According to the BBC, and autopsy has so 328 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: far found Gravin's death was quote not due to trauma, 329 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 2: so that would be like physical okay, trauma. But there'll 330 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 2: be a lot more coming in the ensuing days and weeks. 331 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: Wow, Lucy, a really distressing but fascinating story, another kind 332 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: of chapter in the world of social media and streaming 333 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: and all the ethical concerns that can come out of 334 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: this kind of space. Yeah, thank you for taking us 335 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: through that. Thanks Sam, and thank you for listening to 336 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: today's episode. We'll be back a little later with the 337 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: evening news headlines, but until then, take care of yourself. 338 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 2: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda 339 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 2: bunge Lung Chalcotin woman from Gadigl country. The Daily oz 340 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 2: acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands of 341 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 2: the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and 342 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: Torres Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to 343 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 2: the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.