1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: I think one that I use a lot when I'm 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: trying to figure out if something's even worth writing about 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: it all is just to ask. This came from another 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: editor here, Andrea Owns, who's now retired, but she said, 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: you know, I think if I ask five smart people 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: for advice on something, and I sort of collected all 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: the advice that I received from them and put it 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,799 Speaker 1: into a piece, if that's the piece, that's like not 9 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: enough for an article, because like that's probably just common sense, 10 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: and like you don't really need to write an article 11 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: if it's just full of common sense. So I think 12 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: that's something where I kind of use that rule of 13 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: thumb to judge if something's even worth working on or 14 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: even worth writing in the first place. 15 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 16 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 17 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imbak. I'm an 18 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 19 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my workday. My guest today is 20 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 2: Sarah Green Carmichael. Sarah is an executive editor at Harvard 21 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 2: Business Review, where she works out what to publish on 22 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 2: the site and edits the articles. 23 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 3: That you may have read there. 24 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 2: Sarah is also the host of hbr's idea Cast podcast, 25 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 2: which gets over one million downloads every month. I was 26 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 2: very excited to speak to Sarah, as I am a 27 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 2: voracious HBr reader and given the amount of ideas and 28 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 2: tips that she's exposed to on a daily basis given 29 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: her role, I was very keen to explore what she's 30 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 2: actually applied in her own life. 31 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 3: We cover a heap of. 32 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: Ground in this interview, ranging from some gems on how 33 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 2: to be a better writer, through to how to read 34 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: a business book in under thirty minutes. 35 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 3: Over to Sarah to find out about how she works. Sarah, 36 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 3: welcome to the show. 37 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. 38 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 2: Now, I'm really keen to get stuck into the thing 39 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: that you're doing to improve your day, improve your productivity, 40 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 2: because in your role as executive editor at HBI, and 41 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: also having been an editor for six years there, you 42 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: must have read literally thousands of articles offering advice. 43 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 3: Is that fair to say? 44 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: Yes, I think that is fair to say. 45 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 2: Now I'm curious what have been some of the best 46 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,399 Speaker 2: pieces of advice you've read on the topic of productivity, 47 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 2: and I'm particularly keen to hear about the ones that 48 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 2: you've actually applied in your own life. 49 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think for me, a big challenge productivity 50 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: wise has always been email. I have really this is 51 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: something that is the lifeblood of my business. So many 52 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: of the people I work with are not in the building, 53 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: so email is really important to me. But also I 54 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: never would have time to actually edit anything or do 55 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: anything if I were only responding to emails. So one 56 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: of the tips that I read in HBr, actually that 57 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: I have also tried to apply to my own life, 58 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,839 Speaker 1: is to check email at certain times of day. So 59 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: you know, maybe I check at nine am and at 60 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: noon and I get at four and maybe it doesn't 61 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: always quite work that way, but I try to sort 62 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: of have dedicated time to respond to emails so it 63 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: doesn't take over the whole day, and I think it's helped. 64 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 3: So what time of day do you allocate to emails? 65 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: So I have it kind of rotating blocks of time 66 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: depending on my other things, but I really do put 67 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,399 Speaker 1: it into my calendar, so I probably spend I try 68 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: to make an effort to spend like the last forty 69 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: minutes of the day just catching up on email, and 70 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: I try to do a sort of forty minute chunk 71 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: in the morning too, just so that no one is 72 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: ever sort of waiting for too too long. 73 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: That's interesting because I imagine a lot of advice that 74 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: you've read about email would also say don't check email 75 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: first thing in the morning. Is that something that you've 76 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: ever tried to apply, or is it just the nature 77 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 2: of the work that you do that that's just an impossibility. 78 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: I would say, so I typically do at least look 79 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: at it in the morning, but I don't always respond. 80 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: So I sort of look at it to see is 81 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: anything on fire, and then if nothing is actually on fire, 82 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: then I will take an hour or an hour and 83 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: a half and actually do some heads down important work. 84 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: But I do like to at least look at the 85 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: inbox to make sure that there's really nothing urgent or 86 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: pressing that really needs to be addressed. And I typically 87 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: don't check email after six thirty or seven at night. 88 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 1: So that's something where you know, I sort of check 89 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: in the morning to make up for the fact that 90 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: I try to have a hard stop at the end 91 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: of the day when I just unplug. 92 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 2: Wow, that's very disciplined, like you have you always been 93 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: that way in terms of unplugging, I guess, you know, 94 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: in the evening so when you go harme and not. 95 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: I have not been that way. That is something that 96 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: I really had to learn because I think, especially when 97 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 1: you work in digital media, you do sort of expect 98 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: to be always on. And I sort of had to realize, 99 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: you know, I work in publishing. I'm not saving lives here, 100 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: Like the work I do matters to me, but nothing 101 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: too terrible will happen if I just don't check email 102 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: at night. And I checked with my boss. I said, 103 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: you know, is this okay? And she said, yeah, I 104 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: think so. And I said, you know, if anything really 105 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 1: important comes up, people can always call me, Like we 106 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 1: do have this thing called the phone that people use 107 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: in emergencies. So I think sort of thinking of it 108 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: that way really helped. 109 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, what was that a had habit for you to break? 110 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 2: I'm just like, you know the addictive nature of email. 111 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: So the email habit was relatively easy to break compared 112 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: to the social media habit that I'm still struggling to break. 113 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: So that is sort of the current project is becoming 114 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: unaddicted to social media. 115 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 3: Tell me about that. 116 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 1: Oh, I just think that those all those platforms are 117 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: optimized to hook us in and they really work. And I, 118 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: you know, it's something where, you know, especially if I'm 119 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 1: traveling for work, I'm away from my family, I can 120 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: easily find myself wasting you know, an hour on Facebook 121 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: or Instagram or Twitter or something, and then it's you know, 122 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,239 Speaker 1: that's not really how you want to spend your precious moments. 123 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: So I don't have advice in that one yet, but 124 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: if any if anyone listening has advice, I would love 125 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: to know. You could probably tweet it at me because 126 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: I'll probably be checking. 127 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 3: Cool, I love it? And what else? 128 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: What fin some other gems of advice that you've read 129 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 2: and applied successfully. 130 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the things that really just helped 131 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: me with my what I think of was my real work. 132 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: My work work as opposed to managing email, was trying 133 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: to stop when I come to a stopping point at 134 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: the end of the day, stopping when I'm on a 135 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: roll on a project, and not stopping when I'm stuck. 136 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 1: So I think a lot of us have a tendency 137 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: to want to see something through to the end, and 138 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,160 Speaker 1: that's what makes us good employees. But I find it 139 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: much easier to pick back up where I left off 140 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: the next day if I have sort of stopped in 141 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: the middle instead of at a natural kind of stopping point. 142 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,119 Speaker 1: And that's something that I actually picked up from reading 143 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: about the daily routines of artists. I know, like, this 144 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: is something that Hemingway did, this is something that Arthur 145 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: Miller did. It's something where you know, you kind of 146 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: you never drain the reservoir. You always leave a little 147 00:06:57,920 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: bit of something left in the tank so that when 148 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: you pick it up, it's really easy to just get 149 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: going again. 150 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's interesting. 151 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, Hemingway used to to stop mead sentence or mead paragraph, didn't. 152 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: He Yes, and you just kind of like you just 153 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: I think what he said was, you know, you write 154 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: until you come to a place where you still have 155 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: the juice, and you don't ever want to sort of 156 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 1: run out of juice. And that's something I remind myself 157 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of us will kind of 158 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: just keep going until we're totally burnt out. And actually, 159 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: you know, that's that's ultimately that's pretty counterproductive. 160 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And how do you know when you've reached that 161 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 2: point at the end of the day, like, what does 162 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: that feel like? 163 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 1: Well, for me, what has really worked is to have 164 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: specific times, because otherwise it is too easy for me 165 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: just to keep working. I have an enormous capacity for work, 166 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: so I will probably always find work to do. So 167 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: I just try to know, am I stopping at four o'clock, 168 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: at five o'clock, at six o'clock? You know what is 169 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: my stopping point today? And then well, if I sort 170 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: of come to that point and I have thoughts that 171 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: I don't to forget because I'm in the middle of 172 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: a project, I just jomped them down, I put them 173 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: on a post it note, I leave them on my desk, 174 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 1: and I go home. 175 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: Now on the flip side, because they sounds like great 176 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: pieces of advice that you've learned and applied, I'm curious 177 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 2: as to other things, like things that you've read in 178 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: the research, or advice that you've heard or read that 179 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: you did try to apply but absolutely didn't work for you. 180 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the only touch it once rule is a 181 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: classic one, and that doesn't work for me. The idea 182 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: is that you know something comes across your desk, something 183 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: comes into your email, and you know you immediately decide 184 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: what to do with it, you only touch it once, 185 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: and that has just never worked for me. A lot 186 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: of the decisions I have to make it work are 187 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: pretty complex. I have to get input from other people, 188 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: I have to do additional research, you know. I can't 189 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: just sort of make decisions on the fly. Although I 190 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: often do make a bunch of decisions on the fly, 191 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: I can't follow that kind of rule. So that was 192 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 1: one that just to me felt overly simplest and kind 193 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: of not something that was gonna work for me. 194 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, how do you make your best decisions at work? 195 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:08,439 Speaker 2: Then? 196 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: Let me think about that, I think. So, I think 197 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: what I try to keep in mind is that part 198 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: of my job is my job is making decisions. That 199 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: is my job, you know, deciding whether or not we 200 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: publish something, deciding what the headline of Viana piece, you know, 201 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: deciding what feedback to give to someone. And so I 202 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: think the worst thing you can do if your job 203 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: is to make decisions is to not make decisions. So 204 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: I when I am sort of stuck, I kind of 205 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: I try to make a decision, but knowing that even 206 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: a bad decision is better than no decision at all. 207 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: So that's just something that sort of helps me keep 208 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 1: moving forward. And then, you know, I think one sort 209 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: of struggle, especially for women, and there's sort of some 210 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: research on this. We're supposed to be much more consensus driven. 211 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: That's the behavior that's expected of us. And I think 212 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: at some point, yes, fact finding and building buy in 213 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: and all that stuff can be helpful, but at some time, 214 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: at some point, you just have to decide. And so 215 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: I think that's something too where over time kind of 216 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: learning what decisions can I just make, you know, without 217 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: sort of going through this whole process of consensus building, 218 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: and where do it does it really matter to get 219 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: a lot of feedback from other people? That's something you 220 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: just kind of learn over time. 221 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: Is that a confidence thing or like trusting your intuition? 222 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 3: Well, what's that about? Do you think? 223 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: I think it's about just trying some things and making 224 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: mistakes and learning from them. You know, I have not 225 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: always made the right decisions, and so you know, for once, 226 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: for an example, you know, this twenty sixteen presidential election 227 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: in the US was like pretty hotly contested and is 228 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: still being controversial and re litigated in some ways. And 229 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: you know, HBr doesn't often publish on political issues, but 230 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: we did publish a couple of pieces tied to some 231 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: of the leadership and economic issues that were brought up 232 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: by the campaign, and ultimately we decided that there has 233 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: to be an extra layer of editorial review on those 234 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: articles because I have published a couple of pieces that 235 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: I just sort of felt like, yeah, well, you know, 236 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: we're a platform for debate. People can have debates, you know, 237 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: And I think I was a little too quick to 238 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 1: pull the trigger on those pieces and say like, yeah, 239 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: let's just publish them and see where the chips land. 240 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: So I think that's just one where yeah sort of 241 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: learned like oops, like that's not really what readers want 242 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: from us or expecting from us, And it at least 243 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: is helpful in the organization to have some mohere people 244 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: read the piece and know that it's going live before 245 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: we just publish it and kind of say, oh, well, 246 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: you know, people on the internet just say things, so yeah, 247 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 1: and like you know, that' shows someone where I made 248 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: a call, I made a mistake and I learned, Yeah, that. 249 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 2: Must be quite stressful given how public like the work 250 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 2: that you do. Ease, Like, how do you deal with 251 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 2: stresses like that? 252 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 3: Do you kind of have like go to strategies. 253 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think for me, one of the 254 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: things that I love about digital media is that you 255 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 1: are constantly publishing new things and you sort of it's 256 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: sort of like playing baseball, and that you play every 257 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: day and you have multiple at bats every day, and 258 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: what you're trying to do is improve your average over time. 259 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: So very few of the decisions I make are hugely 260 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: consequential in and of themselves, but over time they will 261 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: add up to something that amounts to a lot. So 262 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: I think that's keeping that in mind kind of takes 263 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: some of the stress away because it's like, well, any 264 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: individual decision is not going to be a make or 265 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: break decision. What we're hoping to do is have a 266 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: winning average by the end of the year. 267 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 268 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 3: I like that now. I saw it. Back in two 269 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 3: thousand and three. 270 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: You wrote your honors thesis on Jane Austen and you 271 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 2: also won the essay contest of the jine in Society 272 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 2: of North America. So congratulations, thank you. What advice would 273 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: Jane Austen have for the modern woman? 274 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, so much advice. Her advice is still 275 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: so relevant, and in fact, it's the part of me 276 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: thinks that if she were, you know, alive and well today, 277 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: she would have written her version of lean In or 278 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: something that would also have been a bestseller, because I 279 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: think so. One of the things that I've always liked 280 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 1: about Jane Austen is that she definitely believes in following 281 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: your heart. You know, all of her heroines do that, 282 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: but they also have a strong practical streak to all 283 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: of them where it's like, listen, is this going to 284 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: work in the real world or not? And so I 285 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: think I think her advice to the modern woman would 286 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: be a little bit of, yeah, have your head in 287 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: the clouds, but keep your feet on the ground and 288 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: you know, kind of know when you can hold out 289 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: for a better deal. But also, don't you know, don't 290 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: let a good thing pass by because you're just waiting 291 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: for something that's perfect, because perfection doesn't you know, it 292 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: doesn't exist. 293 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 3: That's nice. I like that. I like that. 294 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: I want to shift into one of the other parts 295 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 2: of your role, which is hosting the HBr idea Cast podcast, 296 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: which I believe has over one million downloads each month. 297 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 3: Is that correct? 298 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: Yes? 299 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: Yes, Now I'm curious how do you prepare for a podcast? 300 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 3: Because I got to say, I love your interviews. 301 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: I always learned so much from that particular podcast, and 302 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 2: I want to know what goes into preparing for an interview. 303 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: Oh thank you. So I think this kind of harks 304 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: back to something we talked about earlier, which is, right, 305 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: the question of productivity and how do you know when 306 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: you've done enough? So what I try to do for 307 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: the podcast, whether it's the hber Idea Cast, which I've 308 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: been hosting for about ten years now, or are Women 309 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: at Work podcast, which is still less than a year old, 310 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: I try to read a bunch of articles if the 311 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: If the interview is going to be based on a book, 312 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: I try to read parts of the book. I don't 313 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: always read the whole book, but I read the introduction 314 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: and I kind of speed read a bunch of the 315 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: chapters and then figure out where I'm going to focus, 316 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: and then I focus in depth on those. And I 317 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: do think it's that kind of thing where it's really 318 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: important to prioritize that way because I don't have time 319 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: to deeply read the entire book and do a bunch 320 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: of extra research. So I really am, you know, relying 321 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: on the ability to quickly figure out what are what 322 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: is going to be the most interesting to the people 323 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: who are listening to the show, And how can I 324 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: sort of spend my time there knowing that I just 325 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: don't have time to cover everything. So I do try 326 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: to be selective. I do prepare. I do write down 327 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: a bunch of questions. I write a bunch more questions 328 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: than I think I'll need, because sometimes people talk a lot. 329 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: Sometimes people are very concise. You just never know which 330 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: way it's going to go. But then I also prepare 331 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: to listen. I think, you know, sometimes people say things 332 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: and if you're not listening, you kind of zone out 333 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: and miss it, and then you've missed a good opportunity 334 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: to go down an interesting rabbit hole. So I don't know, 335 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: those are just some of the things I try to 336 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: keep in mind. 337 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: I'm curious around how you spade read a book. So 338 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 2: you say you read the introduction, and then you'll kind 339 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: of skim over the different pots, like what what does 340 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: that look like practically? And how long does that take? 341 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: You just want to get a sense like how would 342 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: you apply that? 343 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is like where I'm almost embarrassed to say, 344 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: but I will say so. 345 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. 346 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: So I try to like spend five or ten minutes 347 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: is usually enough time to like read the introduction, I 348 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: would say, maybe closer to five, and then I'm looking 349 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: at the table of contents. I sort of flipped to 350 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: the beginning of each chapter. I flip through to see 351 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: what it's about. The good thing about business books is 352 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: there tend to be like very straightforward chapter titles and subheadings, 353 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: so it's actually really easy to kind of find the 354 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: information that you might want to find. And then I 355 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: kind of I don't know. I mean, I think it 356 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: helps that I read so much from my job anyway, 357 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: Like so much of what I do is evaluating people's 358 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,479 Speaker 1: articles or pitches and quickly just sort of looking at 359 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 1: them to see is there an idea here or not, 360 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: So I sort of am applying the same skill that 361 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: I use in the other parts of my job to 362 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: this part. I would say. There are times when I 363 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: don't spend probably more than thirty minutes preparing for an interview, 364 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: which I'm sure, if you know, someone like Terry Gross 365 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: would be appalled, But I'm not Terry Gross. You know, 366 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: I'm not doing this as my full time job for 367 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,959 Speaker 1: National Public Radio. So it is the kind of thing 368 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: where I decide how much time I have, and then 369 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: I spend that amount of time. And I think that's 370 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: just sort of a daily like a general productivity tip 371 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: that I just try to apply to all my work. 372 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: It's like, how much time do I have? Okay, Like 373 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: that's the amount of time I'll spend. 374 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 2: I'm curious, how do you know when you've done enough preparation? 375 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: Like is it a feeling that you get, Like do 376 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 2: you just intuitively think, Okay, I feel prepared enough, or 377 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 2: is it really literally, this is how much time I've got, 378 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 2: and I'll feel prepared as I can at the end 379 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 2: of this amount of time. 380 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think it depends a lot on the 381 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: topic too, because there are some interviews where you know, 382 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: if it's a topic I know a lot about or 383 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: I know the author's work kind of already, then it 384 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: takes much less time to prepare, and I can feel 385 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: super prepared in half an hour easily. And I should 386 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: also say, you know, we often do a pre interview 387 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: with the person, which is maybe only fifteen or twenty minutes, 388 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: but it sort of gives you a chance to run 389 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: through some of the ideas you're thinking about and kind 390 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: of get a sense of how they sound, and I 391 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: have producers who help out on the show too, so 392 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: I can kind of bounce my ideas off of them, 393 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: which is helpful, and they can give their ideas to me. 394 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: So but I think in terms of like knowing when 395 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: you're prepared, I think, I think, you know, that's something 396 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: that I think is just I don't know, Like there's 397 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 1: definitely times when you feel confident in like, Okay, I've 398 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: got this, but that's not always proportional to the amount 399 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: of time that I've spent. And I think one of 400 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: the things that it's challenging. I see sometimes younger people 401 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 1: in the office, any office sort of over preparing so 402 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: that they feel really confident and prepared. And I think, yes, 403 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: especially when you're earlier in your career, it's good to 404 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: overprepare because it often pays off. But I think as 405 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: you move up the ladder, you kind of have to 406 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: get more comfortable feeling unprepared and just knowing that you're 407 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: going to have to be comfortable improvising and just kind 408 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: of winghing it anyway. And so I think, yeah, I 409 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 1: don't know. That's a very muddled answer to what was 410 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: a really good question, but it's just one of those 411 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: things that you know, I think you kind of have 412 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: to to both know how to prepare quickly but also 413 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: how to proceed even if you feel totally unprepared. 414 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 3: I think that makes sense. 415 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 2: And I want to come back to what you said 416 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: about the pre interview because I want to know what 417 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 2: role does the pre interview play for you? 418 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: To me, the pre interview is about two things. It's 419 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: really about making sure that the guest feels comfortable, because 420 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: even if I'm winging it, I don't want them to 421 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: feel like they have no idea what's going on. But 422 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: it's also about giving me a sense of, you know, 423 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: will this person talk for uninterrupted chunks of time? You know, 424 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,239 Speaker 1: am I going to have to interrupt them sort of 425 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: more to help them kind of stay on track. It's 426 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 1: about if there's like two ways I could ask a question, 427 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: sometimes in the pre interview, will ask them each way 428 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: to see kind of how which way they respond to more. 429 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: Or it's about saying, you know, we'd love to get 430 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: some of your stories out, you know, are there stories 431 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: that you tell about this topic, so that maybe during 432 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: the pre interview we have them tell two or three 433 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: or four stories. But then in the podcast, I know 434 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: the exact one I want to ask them about, so 435 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: we don't kind of spend that extra time. 436 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 3: I like that. 437 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 2: That's nice, And I imagine that you must interview people 438 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: that you either dislike or disagree with. How do you 439 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 2: deal with, like managing yourself in those situations. 440 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: That is such a great question. I have a little 441 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: bit of a cop out answer, which is, if I 442 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: really disagree with something, I don't have that person on 443 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: one of the shows that I host. So if I 444 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: think someone's idea is just dumb or stupid, I'm not 445 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: going to give them the platform that EAHBR has to 446 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: offer them. Now that said, there are times when in 447 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: the course of an interview, someone says something that I 448 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 1: think is not backed up by the data, or I'm 449 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: not quite sure, or you know, I'm kind of skeptical, 450 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,640 Speaker 1: and in that case, I just I try to sort 451 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: of interject and say, well, you know, a skeptic might 452 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: hear what you've just said there and wonder about this 453 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: other thing, and kind of say, well of our listeners 454 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: might be wondering why, and you know, in some in 455 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: some of those cases, the listener who was wondering is me. 456 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: But I think you know, just just kind of remembering 457 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: that you were really there to serve the listeners and 458 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: ask the questions that they would want to ask. I 459 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: try to do that, but I don't often get super 460 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: flustered or like angry during an interview i'm doing because 461 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: usually the people who would make me super angry aren't 462 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: even on the show to begin with. 463 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 3: Fair enough that that's probably a good strategy. 464 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: I want to shift into writing, and I think it 465 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 2: was a couple of weeks ago you tweeted your top 466 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 2: writing tips on Twitter, which I think was a good 467 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 2: use of social media time. 468 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: Oh thank you. 469 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 3: I want to read out some. 470 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 2: Of them, and then I want to delve into like 471 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 2: how did you learn to write? Because because I think 472 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 2: like in this day and age, and my mom's a 473 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 2: writer and she's always kind of lamenting the that they 474 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,959 Speaker 2: don't teach grammar at school like they used to and 475 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 2: so forth. But I want to read out some of 476 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 2: your pieces of advice. So the first one, read your 477 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: draft aloud. If you stumble over parts of it, readers 478 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 2: will to love that have fun. If you're not having fun, 479 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 2: readers won't either, and never end an article with some 480 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 2: version of time will tell it's a cop out three 481 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 2: great pieces of advice there. 482 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 3: So I want to know how did you learn to write? 483 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 1: Well. I have to say my mother really shaped me 484 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: early on. She also was an editor, and from the 485 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: very first things that I wrote as a little little 486 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: kid and my very first essays for school, she really 487 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: walked me through the editing process. And I think that's 488 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: such a gift because a lot of editing is really 489 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 1: about taking what you have and making it better. It's 490 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: not about rewriting. It's not about starting over, and I think, 491 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: especially at a young age, that's what a lot of 492 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: budding writers do. They they don't really know what editing is. 493 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: They just sort of start again and write a different version. 494 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: And so I was really lucky to have my mom 495 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: there to kind of teach me about that. And then 496 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 1: I think one of my formative experiences was in college 497 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: I worked at the writing Center where peer students give 498 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: feedback to other students. So working as a peer tutor 499 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: to others really taught me a lot about how to 500 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: coach someone in the writing process and sort of specific 501 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: editing tips that I still use in my job today. 502 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: And that's, for example, where I learned that you know, 503 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: you should read it aloud. If it doesn't sound good, 504 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: read aloud it you know doesn't quite work on the 505 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: page either. So a lot of that stuff I actually 506 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: learned in a college tutoring class, and then you know, 507 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: I've had really good mentors in the professional world. So 508 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: Amy Bernstein, the editor of HBr, has said something that's 509 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: really stuck with me, which is, when you're editing something, 510 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, you really have to ask yourself, am I 511 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: making this different? Or am I making this better? And 512 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: if you're just making it different, you know, maybe it 513 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: don't make that change. So it's the kind of thing 514 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: that you can really spend a lifetime honing. And I 515 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 1: think I've been really lucky to have a lot of 516 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: people guide me along the way. 517 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 3: And I love that piece of advice you just mentioned it. 518 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: What have been some of the other great pieces of 519 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: advice that you've maybe received about your own writing to 520 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: make your own writing better or to make your own 521 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 2: editing process better. 522 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think one that I use a lot when 523 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out if something's even worth writing 524 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: about it all is just to ask. This came from 525 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: another editor here, Andrew Owns, who's now retired but she said, 526 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: you know, I think if I ask five smart people 527 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: for advice on something, and I sort of collected all 528 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: the advice that I received from them and put it 529 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: into a piece, if that's the piece, that's like not 530 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: enough for an article, because like that's probably just common sense, 531 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: and like you don't really need to write an article 532 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: if it's just full of common sense. So I think 533 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: that's something where I kind of use that rule of 534 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: them to judge if something's even worth working on or 535 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: even worth writing in the first place. So that's one 536 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: that I that I come back to a lot. Another 537 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: kind of piece of advice that I got was to 538 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: always make sure that the examples in the article could 539 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: actually show the idea working. It's amazing how many times 540 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: you read an article and it kind of has this 541 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: interesting theory and then it has this example, but if 542 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: you really stop and think about it, the example doesn't 543 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: always show the idea and action. So that's something that 544 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: I kind of I'm always kicking the tires on a 545 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: little bit. I think. You know, another thing I just 546 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: have sort of noticed on my own as I've been 547 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: editing now for a number of years, is most of 548 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: us spend a good bit of time kind of throat 549 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: clearing as we're getting into writing a draft. So almost 550 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,479 Speaker 1: all the time in my own writing and when I'm 551 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: editing other people's writing, those first two paragraphs probably can 552 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: be deleted, like they serve the purpose of helping you 553 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: start writing the thing, like that is what they are for. 554 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: But then when you're revising, probably your third or fourth 555 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: paragraph is where actually your article starts. 556 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 2: H I like that one a lot. That's really interesting. 557 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 2: That's such great advice. I want to sort of delve 558 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 2: into the editing part of your role a bit more 559 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 2: because I would imagine editing requires such intense focus. And 560 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 2: we obviously started this interview talking about things that are 561 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 2: distracting like email, like social media. What are your strategies 562 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 2: for staying on task and staying focused and warding off 563 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 2: those digital distractions when you do have like an intense 564 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 2: focused task to do. 565 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: So, I think the best thing I do actually is 566 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: I just work from home one day a week and 567 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,479 Speaker 1: I'm really lucky to have a boss who's totally on 568 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: board with that. But to me, being in a space 569 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: that has minimal distractions, a space that I can control, 570 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, we have an open office here, which is 571 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: really great for collaborating, but it's not so great when 572 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: you just need to focus. So to me, I get 573 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: more done in that one day a week at home 574 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: than I do probably and all the other days combined 575 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: when it comes to actually editing. The other thing that 576 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: I have just learned about myself is that I get 577 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: a ton of editing done on trains and planes because 578 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: you're kind of strapped into the seat. You don't have 579 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: Wi Fi. So I actually I try as much as possible. 580 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: If I'm traveling for work, I try to take day 581 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: flights so that I can have that time on the 582 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: airplane to work. If I have to go down from 583 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 1: Boston to New York, I always take the train so 584 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: that I have the four hours on the train to work. 585 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: That time becomes disproportionately precious to me. So really it's 586 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: about physically removing myself from the distraction of the Internet 587 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: and the distraction of other people to really be able 588 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: to sit down and focus. 589 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 3: I like that. 590 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 2: I think it was Oscar wild but said we can 591 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: resist everything except temptitians. 592 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 3: So I guess that's what I do. 593 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 2: Is Yeah, yes, do you ever procrastinite? 594 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 3: Oh? 595 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: Yes? Oh? All the time, and it's I will say. 596 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: I try to if I've noticed that I'm procrastinating, I 597 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: try to ask myself, why Is it because the task 598 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: is hard, I'm not sure if I know how to 599 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: do it. Is it because it's unpleasant? Is it because 600 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: I'm in a guilt spiral because I've already put it 601 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: off for so long that now the thought of starting 602 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: just reminds me of how much time I've wasted. You know. 603 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: I try to just be a little bit mindful of that, 604 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: because that usually helps me get over it. Like if 605 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: it's an email that I need to respond to and 606 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: I just keep putting it off, I just sort of 607 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: say to myself, you know, it's only going to get 608 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: worse the longer you wait. But I think we all procrastinate. 609 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: I think even those of us who have a bias 610 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: to action and get a lot done, there's certain things 611 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: that we just, for some reason keep putting off. And 612 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: I think that's just that's just human nature. 613 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: I like that strategy though, of kind of doing that 614 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 2: check in with yourself. Does that almost happen automatically now 615 00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: for you? Or is that like on a good day, 616 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 2: that's what, But on a bad day, something else will happens. 617 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: It's gotten easier over time to do that. That took 618 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: a long time for me to learn, because it used 619 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: to just be that the sort of certain emails or 620 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: certain projects would just sort of linger in the bottom 621 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: of my inbox, until suddenly my whole inbox was the 622 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: stuff I'd been putting off, which then meant that it 623 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: was like too daunting. So I think that's that's something. 624 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: And the other thing that has really helped me avoid 625 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: procrastinating is blocking out time on my calendar for certain things. 626 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: So one of the things that I often procrastinate is 627 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: evaluating new pitches of new ideas for HBr, because anytime 628 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: I'm evaluating new pitches, it means I will have to 629 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: sit down and write rejections, and writing rejection letters is 630 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 1: my least favorite thing to do. So I just have 631 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: an hour on my calendar every week that's just for 632 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: writing rejections so that I can just sit down and 633 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: just get it done and make myself do it and 634 00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: just move on. 635 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 3: Have you mastered the aught of writing like a plot 636 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 3: or a nice rejection? Let up? 637 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: I try? I try. I try to always be brief, 638 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: clear and to give a reason because I think, you know, 639 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: you don't really need to like labor it. Most of 640 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: the time people are just sort of looking for a 641 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: yes or no answer. But I always try to say, 642 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: you know, thank you for sharing this ideal with me, 643 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you thought of HBr. And then this 644 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: isn't going to work, We've already covered it, or you know, 645 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: this just isn't quite the right fit for our audience. 646 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: I try to give some reason, even if it's not 647 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: detailed feedback, and then just sort of thank them again. 648 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: But I always try to keep in mind that, you know, 649 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: people can forward these emails to anyone. You know. Once 650 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: I send that email, it's like out there in the world. 651 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: So not only do I want the people reading it 652 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 1: to have an okay experience given that they're being rejected. 653 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: I also try to keep in mind even if there 654 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: are times when I might be tempted to send a 655 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: kind of stroppy email or sort of flaming kind of 656 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: I can't believe he isn't this to me, because like 657 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: we all have bad days, we're all tempted sometimes to 658 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: do that. I think, do I want to do I 659 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: want this to end up on like BuzzFeed, you know, 660 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: and no, I don't. I want to treat people kindly 661 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: and with compassion. 662 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 3: How how easy is it to make those decisions? 663 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 2: Like with with people pitching ideas to HBr, whether they 664 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 2: beate for an article or a book, like, like, how 665 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 2: how easy is it for you to decide yes, this 666 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 2: is absolutely sod to HBr or no it's not. 667 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 3: Is that quite a quick decision? 668 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 2: Now, given the length of time that you've been making 669 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 2: these decisions, I. 670 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: Think it's usually pretty clear. I think what is tough 671 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: is that there is like a small percentage of articles 672 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: that are really I'm really on the fence about And 673 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: even though that's a very small percentage of articles, because 674 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: it's usually like this is great or like no, this 675 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: just isn't going to work, it's that it's that percentage 676 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: in the middle that causes me most angst, because that's 677 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: the one where it's like, with enough time and work, 678 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: this could really work, you know, And then it's like, 679 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: but is it really worth investing that time in this 680 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: as opposed to some other thing? So those are the 681 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: ones that really kind of keep me up at night. 682 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 3: So how do you go about making those decisions? 683 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's a question of priorities. You know, 684 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: I think it's like, is this an author I'm really 685 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: excited about do I think they have more and them 686 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: and this could be a learning experience. You know. Usually 687 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: if it's a brand new author, I'm more willing to 688 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: give them a benefit of the doubt because I think, well, 689 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: let's try it and see if their next submission is better. 690 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: If it's someone who's submitted you know, five good pieces 691 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,239 Speaker 1: and then they send one that's not so good, I'm 692 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: probably just going to say, like, you miss the mark 693 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: with this one, Like I'll catch you next time. So 694 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: there's like sort of different priorities that that kind of 695 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: go into it. And it's based on the topic. If 696 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: it's a topic I love or that we need more 697 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: content on, I'm more likely to spend more time on it. 698 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's really tough, and you know, I'll be honest, 699 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,719 Speaker 1: like anyone who works in journalism knows that there are 700 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: certain times of year that are are kind of more 701 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: quiet than other times of year. And if you are 702 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 1: sending me something in the last week of December, when 703 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 1: I am the only one in the office and we 704 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: really need stuff to publish, like, you have a better 705 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: chance of being published than if you send it on 706 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: January first, when everyone's like, my New Year's resolution is 707 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: to be a published author, and like, here's a draft. 708 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 3: So gosh, that's funny. 709 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: I know it's sometimes it's just luck of the draw. 710 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh awesome. 711 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 2: Look, your work life is all about reading, writing, editing, 712 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: and consuming nonfiction. 713 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 3: What role does fiction play in your life? 714 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: I love fiction, and I majored in English and college literature, 715 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,359 Speaker 1: and I have a book club now, and every time 716 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 1: my book club picks up nonfiction book, I'm just like, no, 717 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: that's what I do for work. So I love reading fiction. 718 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: And there's even some research I've read that show is 719 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: that when you read fiction, it activates a part of 720 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,720 Speaker 1: your brain that helps you empathize more with other people 721 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: and imagine new things, and it sort of shapes that 722 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: part of your brain that's really about imagining the world 723 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: as it could be, not just seeing the world as 724 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: it is. So to me, fiction is really important both 725 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: for managing stress but also for flexing those other parts 726 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: of the brain that are just really important parts that 727 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 1: are about kind of inventing new things and not just 728 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: maximizing efficiency. 729 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 3: I love that. 730 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 2: Now I want to finish with a few questions around 731 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 2: what you're consuming right now, because I think it's so 732 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 2: hard for the average listen to know, like what are 733 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 2: the best things to be reading, listening to and so forth. 734 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 2: So to start, we've given we were just talking about books. 735 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 3: What would have been like a couple of. 736 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,320 Speaker 2: Great books nonfiction or fiction that you've read in the 737 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:50,280 Speaker 2: last few months. 738 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: Hmmm. I should have known that question was coming. Now. 739 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,280 Speaker 1: It's like the test to see can I actually remember 740 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: any of the things that I that I read well, 741 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,240 Speaker 1: I will say, having given kind of a high bulluton 742 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: answer about fiction the importance of fiction. I read a 743 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: ton of mysteries, so you know, there's a ton of 744 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: sort of murder mysteries, cozy style mysteries out there that 745 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: I have read that I loved. So I've been on 746 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: a real Agatha Christie Binge. I read a lot of 747 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: the Louise Penny mysteries. Anyone out there likes them. She's 748 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: a Canadian author I really like, so I've been reading 749 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 1: a lot of those. I also have been reading so 750 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: I just finished Little Fires Everywhere by Celeste Ang. I 751 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: really like her books. One of her my authors actually 752 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: recommended her stuff to me and I really enjoyed those, 753 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 1: just really powerful stories about kind of I think I 754 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: would describe them as sort of the bond between mother 755 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 1: and child and kind of how that can be. Just 756 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 1: sort of that bond and all its complexity I think 757 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: is interesting. Yeah, and then I read a wonderful book 758 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: last year. It's been out for a while, but Commonwealth 759 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: by and Patchett I also really liked. So it's from 760 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: the sort of more literary end of the spectrum. Yeah, 761 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: those are. 762 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 2: Just a couple fantastic. And how about podcasts? What podcasts 763 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 2: are you loving right now? 764 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: Yes, Well, as you may have guessed from my love 765 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 1: of murder mysteries, I do have a real weakness for 766 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: true crime podcasts. So that's just something. I have a 767 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: really long commute. I don't have a ton of downtime 768 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: in my life between you know, being maximally productive at 769 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: work and other stuff. So my listening to true crime 770 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: podcasts on my commute is my like me time. So 771 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: that's just something that you know I do. 772 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 3: And what are your go to ones? What are the 773 00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 3: best ones? 774 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? So I one of the ones I really love 775 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,920 Speaker 1: is in the Dark. They've done two seasons investigative reporting. 776 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: I think both seasons are really really good. But I 777 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: find out about new crime podcasts listen to from a 778 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,800 Speaker 1: show called Crime Writers on where they review other shows, 779 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: and that's like a great way for me to figure 780 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: out sort of other new new podcasts I might want 781 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 1: to listen to. Really, I will tell you a really 782 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: random one that I have really been into that's not 783 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: about crime, but it's about gardening, which is another one 784 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: of my hobbies. It's called Let's Argue About Plants. It 785 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: is literally two people arguing about plants of that book 786 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: I really like. You know what I've been really into 787 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 1: lately is Radio Lab did a show called more Perfect 788 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: It's all about the US Supreme Court that I've found 789 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,919 Speaker 1: really interesting. So I kind of try to use the podcasts. 790 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I have like business and leadership podcasts I 791 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,399 Speaker 1: listen to as well, But mostly what I'm I try 792 00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: to do with podcasts is really say like, Okay, this 793 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: is my time to learn about other things that are 794 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 1: not business, and so much of my work life it's 795 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,839 Speaker 1: sort of management and leadership and business stuff like that. 796 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 3: Fantastic. How about a newsletters? 797 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 2: Are there any e newsletters that you actually look forward 798 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:06,760 Speaker 2: to reading and receiving. 799 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 1: That's a good question. You know, I have not gotten 800 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: this into the newsletter thing as some other people. Is 801 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 1: there a newsletter that you really like that you think 802 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: that I should listen to. 803 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 3: Oh? I quite like Morning Brew. 804 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Morning Brew. Okay, Morning Brew. And I'll link 805 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 2: to all these in the show notes. It's just a 806 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 2: really nice summary and done in a really funny kind 807 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 2: of way. Funny is in hilarious, not odd about the 808 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 2: news that has just been over the last twenty four hours. 809 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:40,720 Speaker 2: So yeah, I quite like that one. 810 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:42,919 Speaker 1: Okay, cool, I will check that one out. 811 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and how about I know this is probably like 812 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 2: asking you to pick your favorite child, but but what's 813 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,800 Speaker 2: been your favorite or maybe one of your favorite articles 814 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 2: that's appeared or on HBr this year? 815 00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: Oh this year? Okay, So well, there's one article that 816 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: we published relatively recently that I think would be of 817 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 1: interest given some of the things we've been talking about today. 818 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: It is by a researcher of whose name is Rees Fsterlund, 819 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: and it's all about why people, but especially women, volunteer 820 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: for tasks that don't lead to promotions, And in fact, 821 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: the title of the article is why women volunteer for 822 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: tasks that don't lead to promotions. And I think it's 823 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: the kind of thing where if you are the person 824 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: who when your boss or someone in a meeting says, oh, 825 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: does anyone want to take notes? Oh? Will anyone be 826 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 1: available to help clean up after this meeting? If you're 827 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: the person who always does that stuff, or who volunteers 828 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: to be on the sort of most boring committee because 829 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: no one else will do it, I strongly recommend you 830 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 1: check it out because it's the kind of thing that 831 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,479 Speaker 1: you know we were saying earlier, all like we only 832 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 1: have twenty four hours in a day. Everything in life 833 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: involves some kind of trade off. If you spend time 834 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,799 Speaker 1: on X, you won't have time to spend time on HY. 835 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: And if you're spending your time on these low value tasks, 836 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: your colleagues might be grateful that they don't have to 837 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,399 Speaker 1: do them, but you will not get promoted for doing 838 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 1: that stuff. So for people who want to advance in 839 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: their career but feel bogged down by these things, I 840 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,439 Speaker 1: think that's really one that's worth checking out. 841 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 3: I love this sound of that. And finally, how can 842 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 3: people find you and the work that you're doing? 843 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: Yes, so I think I mean if they want to, 844 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: that would be awesome. They can find me on Twitter 845 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: at sk Green. I would love it if they would 846 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: be interested in subscribing to a couple of the podcasts 847 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,320 Speaker 1: I host. I host the HBr Idea Cast and also 848 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: Women at Work which is also from HBr And yeah, 849 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: people want to follow those. 850 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 3: That would be great, fantastic. 851 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 2: Well, look, I love to chat lovelet so much. So 852 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,240 Speaker 2: thank you so much, Sarah, thank. 853 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,319 Speaker 1: You for having me. I really had a fun time 854 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 1: talking with you. 855 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 3: Hello. There, that's it for today's episode. 856 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 2: I feel liked it. There are plenty of others that 857 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 2: you might enjoy, such as my chat with Nancy Duarte, 858 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,919 Speaker 2: the global expert on presentations, where we talk about how 859 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 2: she prepares for her own presentations. Or you might enjoy 860 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 2: one of my mini episodes where I share some simple, 861 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,240 Speaker 2: science backed productivity tips that I've discovered in the research. Finally, 862 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 2: it's great getting feedback from listeners such as yourself, so 863 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,800 Speaker 2: I'd love it if you give this podcast a review 864 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 2: in iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. And if 865 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,719 Speaker 2: you like this episode, make sure you hit the subscribe 866 00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 2: button so that you can be alerted whenever new episodes 867 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 2: are released, see you next time,