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Speaker 1: Hi everyone. Just before we dive into the podcast today,

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Speaker 1: this is a quick content warning. What you're going to

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Speaker 1: hear is not rated explicit, but we will be talking

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Speaker 1: about matters that your younger children particularly probably shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: hearing about. Some of the content that we'll discuss will

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Speaker 1: not be suitable for younger listeners or people who are

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Speaker 1: inexperienced in matters of intimacy and those related conversations. It's

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Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the time

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Speaker 1: poor parent who just wants answers now. Hello, this is

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Speaker 1: doctor Justin Coilson, and welcome to another episode of the

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Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast this week, because it is it's a

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Speaker 1: big week. Actually, we've got Child Protection Week happening this week,

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Speaker 1: plus are You Okay Day this week as well, and

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Speaker 1: so for the next couple of podcast episodes, we're going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about some of the bigger issues that

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Speaker 1: are related to these really important events on our calendar.

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Speaker 1: Today from Act for Kids as part of Child Protection Week,

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with doctor Katrina Lines. Katrina is a registered

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Speaker 1: psychologist with more than twenty years of experience delivering clinical services,

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Speaker 1: social services, and more at individual levels, organizational levels, community levels.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Lines has a PhD in Children's cognitive, social and

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Speaker 1: emotional development and post grade qualifications in governance, business and education,

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Speaker 1: and doctor Katrina Lines is the chief executive officer ACT

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Speaker 1: for Kids and I'm so grateful to be able to

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Speaker 1: talk with doctor Lines today. Katrina, Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: We've got a big conversation to have around intimacy and

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Speaker 1: what parents are or perhaps are not talking to their

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Speaker 1: kids about as it relates to sex intimacy and staying

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Speaker 1: safe for Child Protection Week.

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Speaker 2: Lovely to be here talking to you justin Katrina.

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Speaker 1: How much do we need to do to improve what

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Speaker 1: parents are doing when they engage with their kids on

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Speaker 1: this topic? How much are parents actually talking to their

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Speaker 1: children about body safety and sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, These

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Speaker 1: really important relational conversations.

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Speaker 2: So this is something we're really quite interested in at

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Speaker 2: ACT Kids and every Child Protection Week we do some research,

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Speaker 2: survey research, asking Australians know what they think about these

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Speaker 2: things and whether they are actually having conversations. And we

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Speaker 2: know from successive years of research that the majority of

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Speaker 2: parents are really not having conversations with their kids about

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Speaker 2: sex and relationships and how that fits with sex and

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Speaker 2: certainly not really about consent. And the last research we did,

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Speaker 2: more than half of the people we surveyed said that

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Speaker 2: they are not comfortable discussing sex with their parents. So

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Speaker 2: we surveyed quite a lot of young people, and a

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Speaker 2: third of the parents we surveyed said they hadn't spoken

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Speaker 2: to their children about sex at all. So that's not

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Speaker 2: relationships or consent or intimate see or anything else.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're really big numbers. Really concerning numbers as well.

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Speaker 1: How old were the children that were reporting that they

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Speaker 1: haven't been spoken to about it and they're not comfortable

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Speaker 1: talking to their parents about it just.

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Speaker 2: Legally, you know, you can't kind of survey on the

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Speaker 2: National Survey kids younger than sixteen, so they were all sixteen,

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Speaker 2: so sixteen to twenty four year olds. Basically more than

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Speaker 2: half of them said there's no way we would talk

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Speaker 2: to my parents about sex. And then a full third

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Speaker 2: of the parents basically said they hadn't had a conversation

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Speaker 2: with their child, no matter or the young person, no

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Speaker 2: matter how.

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Speaker 1: Old are they old they were, Katrina, why do you

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Speaker 1: think that is? I mean, this has been the subject

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Speaker 1: of so many sitcoms and so many dumb lines in

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Speaker 1: movies and in comedy skits that parents and children don't

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Speaker 1: want to have conversations about this topic. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: share a little bit about what we do in our

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Speaker 1: family shortly. But first of all, why do you think

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Speaker 1: it's such a big deal? Why are parents so uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: having the conversation with their kids and white the kids

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Speaker 1: absolutely not want to go there with their parents.

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Speaker 2: It's actually really interesting. I think it comes from the

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Speaker 2: way Australian society views sex and nudity and you know, converse,

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Speaker 2: open conversations about how bodies work and all that kind

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Speaker 2: of thing. I think in some ways we're a society

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Speaker 2: of prudes, and so we don't talk about these things

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Speaker 2: or it's somehow deemed not okay to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we provide a lot of services for

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Speaker 2: with therapy for children who have experienced sexual abuse, and

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Speaker 2: one of the things that we find that's fundamental is

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Speaker 2: that parents don't teach their children the correct anatomical names

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Speaker 2: for their body parts, and that if you can't even

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Speaker 2: call a penis penis, then how on earth can you

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Speaker 2: have a conversation about not just the biological aspects of sex,

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Speaker 2: but what consent really means you know that you know

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Speaker 2: whend is yes mean yes and no means no and

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Speaker 2: maybe means no, you know, and that concept of enthusiastic yes.

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Speaker 2: So if you're not situating sex in the relationship and

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Speaker 2: intimacy and how important that is and how you kind

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Speaker 2: of go through your life, kids get these pockets of

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Speaker 2: information and because it seems shameful because the adults don't

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Speaker 2: want to talk about it, they don't want to kids

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Speaker 2: don't want to talk to the adults about it because

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Speaker 2: the adults have conveyed the message that it's somehow shameful.

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Speaker 1: Hidden Katrina, I'm just going to interrupt our conversation because

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Speaker 1: I think this relates really nicely with something that came

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Speaker 1: up in the promo.

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Speaker 2: There's well, cloudy, confusing, incredibly oversimplified, very textbook. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: don't know nothing at all. Are received there.

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Speaker 1: One in three Aussies didn't receive sex education at school.

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Speaker 1: More than half aren't comfortable talking to their parents about it.

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Speaker 2: It was a weird conversation I have. I remember it's

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Speaker 2: so weirdly being weird, like the eck. I absolutely learnt

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Speaker 2: my sex said from corn.

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Speaker 1: What I find really I guess paradoxical contradictory. Just strange

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Speaker 1: about this situation is you've said, potentially, we're a nation

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Speaker 1: of prudes. We don't want to talk about it, we

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Speaker 1: don't like having conversations about this natural intimate encounter. And

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Speaker 1: obviously there are personal aspects to it that aren't meant

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Speaker 1: to be shared, things that really are sacred between you

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Speaker 1: and that individual that you've made a commitment to and

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Speaker 1: said you're the one, you're the only one that gets

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Speaker 1: to share this with me. But just because you've got

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Speaker 1: that level of personal commitment to one another doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: you can't talk to people about topics that are relevant

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Speaker 1: and related, especially when it's your children and you're trying

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Speaker 1: to teach them how to have a healthy sex life

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Speaker 1: or healthy sex experience at the appropriate time, appropriate place,

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Speaker 1: appropriate person, appropriate reasons. I find it just extraordinary because

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Speaker 1: we've got this contradiction between this prudish approach and yet

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Speaker 1: Australians are pretty well willing to get their gear off

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Speaker 1: at the beach and they're quite happy to the pornogray

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Speaker 1: statistics in Australia are kind of shameful. Quite frankly. We

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Speaker 1: are heavy consumers, apparently in this country of explicit content online,

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Speaker 1: Yet we don't want to talk to our kids about

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Speaker 1: the beautiful intimacy that can come from a sexual relationship

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Speaker 1: with somebody. That means a lot to us. In your survey,

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Speaker 1: you found that seventy nine percent, I mean we're talking

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Speaker 1: four in five Australians said that the sex education that

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Speaker 1: they received did not prepare them for real life experiences.

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Speaker 1: Could you unpack that for me a little? I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is a big this is a really important statistic.

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Speaker 2: It's actually really surprised us. We knew that it would

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Speaker 2: potentially be a big number. When we unpacked that, we

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Speaker 2: thought about We asked people whether they got sex education

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Speaker 2: at school, and so only forty one percent top the

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Speaker 2: survey said that they actually got sex education at school.

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Speaker 2: All of the people we surveyed who got sex education

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Speaker 2: at school, only nineteen percent said they learned about relationships

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Speaker 2: and consent at school. So, and when we interviewed young people,

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Speaker 2: which we did for the campaign, they said that the

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Speaker 2: sex education they got at school was about the biological

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Speaker 2: aspects of your body, so reproductive systems and you know

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Speaker 2: how their bodies work, and they got the talk about

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Speaker 2: safe sex and sexually transmitted diseases. But there was no

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Speaker 2: conversation about how sex fits into an intimate relationship, or

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Speaker 2: about consent, or about pleasure sexual pleasure at all. Like

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Speaker 2: that's just not mentioned. And one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I think we're expecting is for teachers to have this

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Speaker 2: you know, education session where they're trying to talk to

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Speaker 2: kids about sex, safe sex, and STIs. But they're the

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Speaker 2: wrong people. I think, you know, those conversations should have

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Speaker 2: been started from when kids were tiny things, when you're

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Speaker 2: just having you know, regular everyday catch about stuff or

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Speaker 2: conversations about things, and I know you talk about this

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Speaker 2: all the time, but you know, when you're having it's opportunistic.

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Speaker 2: When you're having a bath with a toddler, a little one,

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Speaker 2: you're bathing them, you tell them the names of their

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Speaker 2: body parts, and people do it for knees and toes

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Speaker 2: and ears and things, but you know, you can do

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Speaker 2: it for private body parts and then you can explain

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Speaker 2: that these are your private body parts and you touch

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Speaker 2: them to keep clean and healthy and all of those

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Speaker 2: kind of things. And then as they get older, they're

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Speaker 2: curious and they ask more questions, but you just need

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Speaker 2: to answer the questions. So if you're having the conversations

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Speaker 2: from there when they're little ones, it's not a big deal.

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Speaker 2: When they're a teenager and they're actually they've got a

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Speaker 2: girlfriend or a boyfriend and they're interested in what a

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Speaker 2: relationship is like and where sex fits into that. And

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Speaker 2: that's I think the big gap is we're expecting teachers

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Speaker 2: to do all that, but as parents, we need to

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Speaker 2: be doing all that, and so it's equipping parents with

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Speaker 2: the skills to do that.

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Speaker 1: Katrina. I had a conversation with some parents just the

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Speaker 1: other day. I was wondering the neighborhood, bumped into a

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Speaker 1: couple of people that I knew how to chat with them,

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Speaker 1: and for whatever reason, this topic came up, and one

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Speaker 1: of the dads in the group really explicitly and simply said,

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Speaker 1: I left that up to the school. The school can

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Speaker 1: teach my kids all about that. And I looked at

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Speaker 1: them and said, have you got any idea what the

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Speaker 1: school's actually teaching them? He said, no, no, no, but it'll

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Speaker 1: be right. And I made the analogy of the comparison.

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Speaker 1: I said, sex education at school is like labor education

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Speaker 1: at the hospital. You don't learn anything meaningful or anything

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Speaker 1: useful there, and I don't say that with any disrespect

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Speaker 1: to teachers who are doing the very best job that

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Speaker 1: they can are the really challenging conditions. But you don't

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Speaker 1: learn how to support your wife as she goes through labor.

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Speaker 1: The woman doesn't really learn exactly what the labor is

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Speaker 1: going to be about and how she can ask for

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Speaker 1: her husband or partner to advocate on her behalf as

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Speaker 1: she's going through it. There's so much more to it,

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Speaker 1: and we just like you said, it's a biomechanical, biophysiological

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Speaker 1: conversation rather than a conversation about intimacy and relationship and

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Speaker 1: female pleasure. And we've just got so much that we

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Speaker 1: need to do at home, and as you've shown in

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Speaker 1: the statistics you've collected, parents just aren't having these conversations.

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Speaker 1: After the break, Katrina, I want to talk to you

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Speaker 1: a bit about what my family's decided to do to

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Speaker 1: make sure that we're having this conversation with our kids

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Speaker 1: and why. But I also want to ask you about

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Speaker 1: the pressure that both our boys and our girls are

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Speaker 1: experiencing when it comes to their sexually intimate encountice. Just

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Speaker 1: when you think you've got this parenting gignailed. Your child

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Speaker 1: hits some new milestone that leaves you figuratively banging your

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Speaker 1: head against the wall. You wonder, where's the instruction manual?

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Speaker 1: Your Growth Guide is that instruction manual a webinar outlining

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Speaker 1: basic milestones so you know where your child's at, where

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Speaker 1: they're going, and what you can expect. Get insights, reassurance

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Speaker 1: and support from your Growth Guide. Available online at happy

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Speaker 1: families dot com dot a. It's the Happy Families podcast,

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Speaker 1: the podcast for the time poor parent who just wants

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Speaker 1: answers Now. My guest today is the CEO of ACT

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Speaker 1: for Kids. Her name is doctor Katrina Lyons, and we're

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Speaker 1: talking about helping our children to get a good sexual

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Speaker 1: education as part of child protection weeks so that they

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Speaker 1: don't end up on crisis lines and talking with Act

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Speaker 1: for Kids about the trauma that they've experienced in a

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Speaker 1: sexual way because they weren't educated. Education is so critically important,

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Speaker 1: doctor Lines. In your survey, you found that there's a

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Speaker 1: heavy and high level of pressure that too many boys

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Speaker 1: and girls adolescents are experiencing when it comes to their

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Speaker 1: first and even subsequent times that they're involved in a

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Speaker 1: sexual encounter.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and that was really worrying for me. And even

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Speaker 2: with all the media concentration on consent and issues that

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Speaker 2: have come out in the last few years, we realize

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Speaker 2: that very you young people are actually learning explicitly about consent.

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Speaker 2: And a fifth of our sample said of women said

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Speaker 2: that they felt pressured the first time they had sex,

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Speaker 2: and ten percent of the sample, which were of men,

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Speaker 2: said that they felt pressured, so that's actually a lot.

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Speaker 2: Twenty two percent of women said they felt pressured the

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Speaker 2: first time that they had sex. So there's a gap

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Speaker 2: in understanding that you can say no, or you can

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Speaker 2: talk about what you're comfortable with and explore the conversations.

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Speaker 2: And it's applicable for girls and boys. But you know,

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Speaker 2: it's obvious it's harder or the situation is different for girls.

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Speaker 1: Katrina. When I hear you share statistics like that, it

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Speaker 1: makes me remember what the research seems to show, and

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Speaker 1: that is the boys tend to be the accelerators. Girls

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Speaker 1: tend to be the breaks. And this research helps us

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Speaker 1: to emphasize that we need to teach our girls because

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Speaker 1: the world is not perfect. We need to teach them

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Speaker 1: how they can protect because we just don't want any

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Speaker 1: more of our daughters to be victims. I'm not saying,

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Speaker 1: by the way, that all boys are going to be

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Speaker 1: out there perpetrating either, but we need to teach our

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Speaker 1: boys what consent it is and what a healthy sexual

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Speaker 1: relationship looks like so that they don't become accused of

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Speaker 1: or become guilty of being a perpetrator as well. There's

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Speaker 1: so much in this. I want to share a story

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Speaker 1: with you if I can, as it relates to exactly

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Speaker 1: what you're talking about here. Some months ago, I had

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Speaker 1: a conversation with a young woman who had been on

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Speaker 1: a first date with a boy who didn't seem to

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Speaker 1: understand boundaries and didn't seem to understand any kind of

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Speaker 1: appropriate expectations. In fact, what I think had happened is

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Speaker 1: that because of his consumption of pornography, because of the

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Speaker 1: quote unquote locker room talk that he and his buddies

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Speaker 1: had been involved in it, and perhaps because of previous

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Speaker 1: sexual experiences or at least bragging about those previous experiences,

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Speaker 1: he simply expected that there was a script that was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be followed on a first date or any

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Speaker 1: subsequent date, and he used his hand to force this

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Speaker 1: girl's head into a position where a sex ac could

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Speaker 1: be performed on him that she was not consenting too,

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Speaker 1: but she was too afraid or too unable. She I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's fight, flight or fear, or freeze

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Speaker 1: or faun or any of those different things that can

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Speaker 1: come up, but she was unable to or unable to

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Speaker 1: articulate a no, and as a result of that, she

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Speaker 1: ended up acting in the way that he expected. According

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Speaker 1: to the script, things went further, and fortunately or unfortunately no,

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Speaker 1: I guess fortunately he wasn't able to do everything to her.

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Speaker 1: I'm not even going to say with her, because it

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Speaker 1: wasn't with her, but it was certainly to her that

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Speaker 1: he wanted to simply because of some physiological issues that

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Speaker 1: weren't able to allow those things to happen. And he

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Speaker 1: went away disappointed, but she went away feeling like she

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Speaker 1: needed to shower for four days and still wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: able to get rid of him from her. And when

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Speaker 1: I heard that story, I sat down with my wife

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Speaker 1: and said, we need to have more conversations with our

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Speaker 1: daughters about how they can be safe. So every month

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Speaker 1: on the first Sunday of the month. Now, I don't

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Speaker 1: expect every family to do what we're doing. By the way,

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Speaker 1: this might be a bit extra, but every month, on

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Speaker 1: the first Sunday of the month, we have conversations with

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Speaker 1: our children about sex, about intimacy, physical intimacy, emotional intimacy, relationships.

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Speaker 1: We talked to them about just the other day. One

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Speaker 1: of the kids said, what's an STI, Dad? I said,

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Speaker 1: great question. We've got to get out of the car

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Speaker 1: in two minutes. Can't tell you properly in two minutes.

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Speaker 1: But this Sunday is the first Sunday of the month.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we have a conversation about it then? And

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Speaker 1: so the kids sat around and we talked about SCIS

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Speaker 1: for thirty or forty minutes, and it was incredible the

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Speaker 1: different ways that the conversation branched out. At the end

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Speaker 1: of that conversation, they were well informed and that knowledge

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Speaker 1: is power for them. No, we don't bring the eight

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Speaker 1: year old into that conversation. I should just highlight this

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Speaker 1: is for the teenagers, the twelve, fifteen, and eighteen year old.

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Speaker 1: But having these regular conversations, which we've now been doing

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Speaker 1: for some time, has changed the way that we have

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Speaker 1: conversations about intimacy for the better. And it feels like

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Speaker 1: our children are more knowledgeable, they're better equipped, and they're

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Speaker 1: more confident when their friends say stupid things in the

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Speaker 1: playground because they can say it well. Actually, I was

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Speaker 1: talking to my parents about that the other day and

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Speaker 1: they said this instead, rather than getting it from friends

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Speaker 1: or from Google, they've got hopefully credible people who are

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Speaker 1: sitting in the lounge room having conversations that are much

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Speaker 1: more real and that can prepare them for the realities

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Speaker 1: of life. I'm wondering with your program Get Comfy, what

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Speaker 1: are the most important things that you would encourage parents

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Speaker 1: to do so that their children can be well equipped

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Speaker 1: and so that they can when they get a survey

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Speaker 1: question like did your sex education prepare you for real

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Speaker 1: life experiences? They can say, yes, it did. My parents

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Speaker 1: talk to me about the stuff I needed to know.

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Speaker 2: Well. I think your example is a really good example,

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Speaker 2: justin of making an opportunity where kids feel safe to

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Speaker 2: ask any question that occurs to them. And so you

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Speaker 2: have to set that. You have to set that culture

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Speaker 2: in your family from when they're little. When they're little kids,

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Speaker 2: and you've done that, your kids know that it's safe

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Speaker 2: to ask questions like that. You know, the first time

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Speaker 2: my kids. I've got three girls and they're all grown

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Speaker 2: up now. But you know, I had four kids in

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Speaker 2: the backseat in their ballet year one afternoon on the

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Speaker 2: way to ballet, three four year olds and a five

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Speaker 2: year old, and one of them goes, what's wanking? You know?

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Speaker 2: And I thought, well, I can either gloss over this

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Speaker 2: or I can explain it in four year old terms.

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Speaker 2: So I thought, I'll just explain it. We're in the

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Speaker 2: car and they all just go oh, oh, okay, conversation

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Speaker 2: on a different topic. If you just do that as

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Speaker 2: they ask the questions, you don't go oh and panic

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Speaker 2: and you know, foog them off with something that they

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Speaker 2: know is rubbish. Kids are smart. They can tell when

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Speaker 2: you're making something up or diverting them some other way,

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Speaker 2: and you just have open, honest conversations with them at

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Speaker 2: an age appropriate level. So you know, you're not bringing

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Speaker 2: the eight year old into the conversations about sexually transmitted diseases.

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Speaker 2: But the eight year old has potential to be seeing

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Speaker 2: graphy on their friend's devices if you haven't or their

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Speaker 2: device if you haven't blocked them down, So you need

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Speaker 2: to be having conversations about the reality of what they're

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Speaker 2: looking at on their device because boys in particular see

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Speaker 2: the performance of sex and think that's what they've got

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Speaker 2: to do, that's how they act. They have to be

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Speaker 2: able to go at it for three hours straight. And

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Speaker 2: you know, there's actually an enormous i think unacknowledged pressure

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Speaker 2: on boys because they're looking, they're consuming this content and

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Speaker 2: thinking that is the script for how they act. And

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Speaker 2: if they don't have people saying to them, look, these

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Speaker 2: are paid actors. They're taking drugs to be able to

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Speaker 2: you know, be able to do that for three hours straight.

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Speaker 2: There's no question about consent because they don't need to.

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Speaker 2: This is not a relationship. And girls need that as well,

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Speaker 2: because we've had girls as young as twelve tell us

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Speaker 2: that being strangled as a normal part of sex and

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Speaker 2: all sorts of things like that. Because the way they're

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Speaker 2: getting the information, it's not even Google anymore, it's porn Hub.

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Speaker 2: You know, they skip Google, they don't ask the questions

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Speaker 2: on Google. They go directly to porn hub and search

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Speaker 2: any type of sex that they want, which is a

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Speaker 2: really awful way to find out about something that should

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Speaker 2: be such a wonderful part of your special intimate relationships

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Speaker 2: and you're going to be, you know, doing this the

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Speaker 2: whole of your adult life with someone you care about, hopefully,

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Speaker 2: and then we teach them like this, so you know,

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Speaker 2: we want people to get comfy having just open, honest,

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Speaker 2: factual conversations at age appropriate levels with their kids.

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Speaker 1: Katrina, it's a real delight to talk to you. I

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Speaker 1: wish we weren't talking about a topic like this which

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Speaker 1: didn't need to be talked about, but I thank you

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Speaker 1: for your time and for the program that you've put together.

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Speaker 1: It's been a really, really important conversation. We'll link to

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Speaker 1: the program, will link to the promo so people can

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Speaker 1: see more about it. We'll link to all the information

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Speaker 1: about ACT for Kids and what you're doing in this

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Speaker 1: space so that people can get the information that they

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Speaker 1: need so they can start having important, meaningful and surprisingly

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Speaker 1: positive and uplifting conversations about topics like this with their kids.

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Speaker 1: Has been great to have you on the podcast. Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much, Thanks Justin. The Happy Family's podcast is produced

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Speaker 1: by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our

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Speaker 1: executive producer, and for more information, please visit us at

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Speaker 1: Happy Families dot com dot u and check out those

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Speaker 1: show notes for everything you need to know about Get

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Speaker 1: Comfy Tomorrow on the podcast Gus Warland talking about Are

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Speaker 1: You Okay Day, It's going to be another episode not

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Speaker 1: to miss. See there