1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,639 Speaker 1: Jersey and Amanda jam Nation. 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 2: Kathleen Folbig's life is one scarred by death. It's the 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 2: reason Australians know her name. It's why she was dubbed 4 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 2: Australia's worst female serial killer. None of her four children 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: lived to see their second birthday. But yesterday, after an 6 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 2: inquiry into the case, Kathleen was pardoned and released after 7 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:24,479 Speaker 2: two decades behind bars. An incredible journalist who knows this 8 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 2: case better than anyone and host of the podcast Mother's 9 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 2: Guilt is Jane Hansen. She joins us now in Hi, Jane. 10 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: Hi, how are you? 11 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 3: Hi? 12 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: Jane? 13 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: What a day? I mean? I know that you have 14 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 2: been looking at the new forensic evidence. You've been looking 15 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: at Kathleen's story. How did you feel yesterday when you thought, Wow, 16 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 2: she's actually been pardoned. She's free. 17 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: Bittersweet, so bittersweet, happy for her, But oh my god, 18 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: what a waste of time and energy, robbed of her 19 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: four children, but also twenty years of her life on 20 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: a case that should never have gone ahead because the 21 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: whole thing was predicated on a discredited theory from the 22 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: beginning in two thousand and three, Meadows Law, as it 23 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: was known, they the one sudden in her death was 24 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: tragic to the specious three murder and was proven otherwise 25 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: had already been discredited in two thousand and three when 26 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: they went ahead with prosecuting Kathleen Tolwick. I don't even 27 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: know us muster then, but anyone that's looked at the 28 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: case closely has seen massive holes in it from one 29 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: and I just feel this overwhelming sense of sadness. 30 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 3: When did you get involved in a Jaine? Because I 31 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 3: remember I started working here all those years ago when 32 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 3: it was all happening, so surely you would have formulated 33 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 3: your own opinions at the time. 34 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: I was covering the war in Iraq, actually, but I 35 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: was also around the same time having and losing my 36 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: own children, so I'd lost two sons in two thousand 37 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: and one and two thousand and four. And I recognized 38 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: in her diary entries which were very much used and 39 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: weaponized to find her guilty. And when I say weaponized, 40 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: they were taken out a context and shrung together in 41 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: such a compelling way to make her look guilty. But 42 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: what psychologists and psychiatrists who made submissions to this latest 43 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: inquiry found after analyzing her her diary entries was that 44 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: these were the writings of a woman bewilled by the 45 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: loss of her children. I mean, how can you just 46 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: get up on your day and your child is dead? 47 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: In their court, the four children appeared to have died 48 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: of sudden infant death, but then to be accused of 49 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: it and blamed for the deaths of your children. I 50 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: just don't know how she got through that. 51 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 2: As you say, there were some incompetence in the way 52 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 2: the case was put together with Meadows law, but also 53 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 2: the forensics science has changed since then, and this is 54 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: what's changed things in recent days for her. 55 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the human genome was done, so the question was, okay, 56 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: is this mad woman just having putting a baby in 57 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: her body through having babies, you know, four times in 58 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: a row, just to smother them so she can go 59 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: to the gym. So that was what the case was 60 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,119 Speaker 1: built on, which how that passed to begin with. But yeah, 61 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: the pathology in the early days was well. 62 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 3: With the fourth child. 63 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: Who had myocard artists, this is Laura Myoclard. Artists of 64 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: course can kill. But the pathologist found that he couldn't 65 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: rule out smothering, and he because three other children had 66 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: died in the family, so we now know if four 67 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,839 Speaker 1: children are going to die in the family one after 68 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: the other, there's probably what's more logical a mad woman 69 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: just killing a children in the front center and putting her 70 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: body through a pregnancy on one time after another just 71 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: to smother her children so she can go to the gym. 72 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: Or is there a genetic flout at play? So these 73 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: things were questioned in two thousand and three, and in 74 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: fact Craig Forby, Kathleen's husband, did contact a geneticist in 75 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: Scotland about possible genetic cause for the deaths of the children, 76 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: but police didn't pursue that because the tests were too expensive, 77 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: so they just went with Meadows law. 78 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 3: Right, So when Craig contacted that person in Scotland, was 79 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: this before that he went to the police with the diaries. Yes, 80 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 3: and then when he saw the diaries, and in the diaries, 81 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: Kathleen says because her father murdered her mother, she said 82 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 3: I am my father's daughter. So that was instantly in 83 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 3: his view admission of guilt. 84 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: Well, she explained herself in the twenty and eighteen inquiry 85 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: before reg Blanch reg Blanche that what she meant was 86 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,239 Speaker 1: that she was a loser like her father, father loser, 87 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: He murdered her own mother, he sexually abused her. That's 88 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: what she meant in her writings, I'm my father's daughter. 89 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: I'm such a loser. She explained that Mayvid he wanted 90 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: to listen to it. 91 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: And also there was no evidence that she'd smothered them, 92 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: because there would be forensic there'd be evidence on their bodies. 93 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how small bay maybe as it will 94 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 2: fight to breathe. And there was none of that. 95 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: Not a scaic of evidence. And even with Laura, the 96 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: larger child, she was eighteen months old when she died. 97 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: They did look for bruising, you know, they did further tests, 98 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: micro tests basically to see if there was any bruising 99 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: on basic et cetera, and there wasn't. There was not 100 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: a scare of evidence that any of the children had 101 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: been smothered. It was purely atial based on matters law. 102 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: What do you think the future for Kathleen will be 103 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: twenty years, six of those in solitary confinement while mourning 104 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 2: her children. It's unimaginable. How will her future be? 105 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: Well? I have to take my hat off to her. 106 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: She's clearly stoic, and I mean that worked against her 107 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: during the trial because she did know how to shut down, 108 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: and that probably came from her dramatic upbringing at such 109 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: a young age, and she had talked about her ability 110 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: to completely emotionally disengage and disassociate. I think that's probably 111 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,799 Speaker 1: what's kept her alive. She's definitely suffered depression and she 112 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,840 Speaker 1: has written to her friend that she has considered suicide. 113 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 1: But I think I think she's tough, you know, how 114 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: can you go through that? Yeah? Yeah, But she's got 115 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 1: an extraordinary friend in Chasey Tracy Chapman, who's built who's 116 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: led the charge to her friends, she went to school 117 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: with her has never ever believed the case against her friend. 118 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: She's actually built a too regional apartment on her farm 119 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: for Kathleen. So we all need a friend like Tracy. 120 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 3: Tracy. Well, Jane, thank you for joining us the podcast 121 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 3: Mother's Guilt wherever you get your podcast, Jane Hansen, thank you, 122 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 3: thank 123 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: You, Jane, thank you so much.