WEBVTT - 09: Sudden Death 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:06.480 This podcast contains information and details relating to suicide. We 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:11.840 urge anyone struggling with their emotions to contact Lifeline on 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:19.079 thirteen eleven fourteen thirteen eleven fourteen or visit them at 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:29.440 lifeline dot org dot au. A twenty four year old 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:36.400 devoted mother of two fleeing a violent relationship as a mom, 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:45.280 bags packed car, running, her daughters strapped into the backseat. 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.120 Mom told me that she needed to go back inside 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:49.920 to grab something. 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:50.720 Panic. 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.320 Amy is dead, Sir aim his dead? 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:57.120 Eight confusion than about five minutes say sit n to suicide. 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:57.920 One hundred percent. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.920 This is emersing. 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:05.399 What do you think is really the honest truth about Amy? 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:14.120 The truth about Amy? 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:17.840 Episode nine. 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.000 I'm Liam Bartlett. 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.160 And I'm Alison Sandy. 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:28.839 Don't depend too much on anyone in the world, because 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:30.280 even your shadow leaves. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.000 You when you're in darkness. 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.679 I'll be the one person my daughters can depend on, 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:37.880 no matter what. 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:40.119 It's a mummy daughter thing. 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:47.080 This comment was posted by Amy on Facebook on the 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.880 twenty first of August twenty thirteen, less than a year 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:57.200 before she died. Eight years later. Her daughters Tay and 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.840 Maya made the following statements at her request. 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:04.840 I miss my mom so much every day and night. 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.279 It makes me sad just to look at her picture 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.079 in my room. Sometimes I would go to North Dandler 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.760 after dropping my sister off at school on a hot day. 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:17.560 On my mom's birthday, we would go to her favorite 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.640 spot and celebrate it. We would even have a Wednesdie 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:24.359 Night on Friday. We would eat popcorn and watch movies. 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:29.440 It was really fine. We would also go fishing and camping. 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.480 Mom was so funny and nice. We even have a 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:34.399 fringe of penny. 0:02:34.240 --> 0:02:34.880 Tree for her. 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:39.560 They were her favorite flower, especially the yellow ones. Even 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:41.880 though her favorite color was pink, she still liked the 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:48.840 yellow ones better. I do really miss my mom. 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.519 Mom was a very nice person. She had a lot 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:54.720 of friends, such as Aaron, which we sometimes call Auntie Anne. 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.919 I miss Mom, especially hearing her voice. If I could 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:01.680 make a wish that would actually come true, it would 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.240 be a wish to see my mom again. We always 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:07.399 used to have a movie onesie night where we would 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:12.200 wear onesies, sometimes matching ones. We would eat popcorn, watch movies, 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:16.360 and take selfies. I remember once Mama had gave Hay 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.639 a character eat at night and she fell asleep whilst 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:24.240 munching on the carrot. Mom had always loved animals. We 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:26.440 used to live near Gramps. I think it was on 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.200 some property and Mum had a little pig that she 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:33.600 would always cuddle. I remember on the day Mom passed away, 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.640 Mum and David had an argument and Mom was angry, 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.520 so she rushed into the shed. I followed her, and 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:41.640 she had walked past the pet lizards we used to 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:45.520 have and accidentally pushed the enclosure over and it smashed everywhere. 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.000 I think Mom was trying to look for something. I 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:52.640 was in shock and a bit upset because our lizards 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.600 had run away. I go tell David that Mum had 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.000 done that, and he rushed in the shed and yelled 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:01.720 at Mom. They had another and Mom told Tay and 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.000 I to get in the car. So we waited in 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.560 the car for Mum and she never came back out 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:10.720 of the house. David then drove to the petrol station 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:13.200 to fill the car up, and I think there was 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:15.560 a cold thing because he had left his phone at 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.000 the house, and then he bought a new phone and 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.039 called someone I don't know who, I think it was Mum. 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.360 Then David dropped us home at Pinjaa, Tay and I 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:29.160 used to go to Grant's house and make pizza. Mom 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.320 was so pretty. A lot of people think I look 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.760 like Mom, and I agree. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:41.600 Indeed she does. Both Neya and Tay exude the kindness 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.760 and warmth displayed by Amy in all the home movies 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:48.760 we've seen. As a mum, I can really relate to 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.599 her Facebook post about wanting to protect her children. It's 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:59.400 instinctive when someone says the word maternal, you think of caring, nurturing, protecting. 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:03.880 The was Amy even before her daughters were born, fostering 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.760 a baby Joey, looking after her sister's and upon having 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:11.039 her two girls, well, it just stepped up another level. 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:15.479 Her life revolved around them. She never wanted them to 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.400 feel the loneliness she felt. But it wasn't just about 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:22.040 the girls having her to rely upon. She had them. 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:28.120 They gave her strength and purpose. Amy would never have 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:38.599 wanted them to go through this. You might recall that 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:42.599 Naa was interviewed just after her mother's death. Because of 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:47.400 her age, her testimony perhaps wasn't taken seriously, but it 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:51.320 should have been. Naya's the only one to provide some 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.680 insight about the critical moment when Amy had re entered 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.840 the house to get something. She told them quite specifically 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.159 that while waiting for for a mum in the car, 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.080 Simmons used a black gun with a scope on it 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:08.320 and shot at a tree, and then went back inside 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.560 to the main bedroom where Amy was and placed the 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:16.880 gun in the mirror wardrobe. The significance of this information 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.239 just seems to have been completely ignored by the coroner. 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.359 There's a few other facts worth mentioning which should have 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:30.920 been given greater weight at the inquest. Firstly, the testimony 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.080 from Robert Simmons saying he was surprised at how bad 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:37.159 David's drink and drug problems had become, and how he 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:41.560 had regretted allowing him so much expendable income, which obviously 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:48.000 exacerbated the already volatile relationship he had with Amy. And 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.039 you may recall us mentioning in an earlier episode that 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:55.479 Nancy's husband, Rick Kirk, said, just four days before Amy died, 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.839 she told him how David had held a knife to 0:06:58.880 --> 0:07:02.320 her throat. This is how Nancy tells it in her 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.280 interview with Liam, who has pulled. 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:09.320 A knife out on her. Amy in one of those 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:14.320 drunken states She never told me that, but I've heard 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:18.000 that he has pulled a knife out on her. She 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:23.680 was tiny, here's six foot, here's big. He's just got 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:25.680 to push her away at one hand and she wouldn't 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.480 be able to touch him. 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:31.559 You'll recall that. According to simmons police file, they note 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:35.360 he may be carrying a knife. Rick and Amy saw 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:37.360 a bit more of each other in the months preceding 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:42.000 her death, both obtaining their firearms licenses together. He was 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.880 interviewed by a member of the cold case investigation team, 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:46.320 who reported the following. 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.400 He believed the trouble between miss Wensley and Simmons began 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.480 when they moved into the Serpentine property. The Sunday before 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.720 Miss Wensley died. She relayed an incident to him where 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.679 Simmons allegedly put a knife to her throat. He states 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:05.840 he didn't take what miss Wensley said seriously, telling interviewing 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:10.160 officers he didn't remember the circumstances around why he Simmons 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.280 put the knife to her throat and what happened after. 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.640 Miss Wensley advised him she was considering leaving the relationship, 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.640 that she needed to be more independent, and that she 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:24.240 hated to rely on getting money from Simmons. 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:33.720 Again information corroborating evidence of domestic violence. For those of 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:37.040 you who have also listened to the podcast The Lady Vanishes, 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:41.000 you'll remember that authorities didn't believe Marian Barter had even 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:48.400 gone missing, let alone met with our play. Likewise with 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.080 Gwen Grover and shot in the dark, despite showing unabating 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:55.240 devotion to her children and all of her choices being 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:59.160 for their benefit, it proved incredibly difficult to change the 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:02.880 minds of aor once they had already come to a conclusion, 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:11.880 no matter how out of character it was. Inexplicably, these 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.920 key decision makers always seemed to act like they know 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:18.079 the person in question better than their friends and family, 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:23.839 even though they never met them. So in this episode, 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.720 we're going to return to the forensic facts, the circumstances 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.120 at the time, and the pattern of behavior of key 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:36.800 people involved, Starting with WA Police Senior Constable James Inskip. 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:42.000 He specializes in ballistics and made four statements on Amy's 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.960 case between twenty sixteen and twenty twenty one. This is 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:47.719 what he told the inquest. 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.240 What was your role in respect to Amy's death? 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.200 I was at the time attached to the forensics firearms unit. 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:57.960 At that time it was physical evidence in firearms examination. 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:01.280 We changed the name on a regular basis and mine 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.600 was to attend the scene in company with another forensic 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.560 firearms examiner. And we have a number of roles within 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:12.120 our unit, the examination of firearms and ammunition firearms where 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.920 they had been allegedly discharged at the scene. We can 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:18.120 attend and record the scene itself. That may lend later 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.559 on to a reconstruction event. We may attend the post mortem. 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:22.200 All right. 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.440 The date that you attended the scene, do you know 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:28.080 how long after Amy's death? That was? Was at the 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:29.680 weekend after Amy's death. 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.760 We attended the police station, munda Jong Police Station at 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.320 eight thirty five on the twenty seventh of June. So 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.560 I'm not exactly sure when the alleged incident occurred. From 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.640 the IMS number, it says seventeen fifty on the twenty sixth, 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:43.920 so it appears to be sometimes afterwards. 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.600 Yes, your attendance at the munda Jong police station. The 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.760 purpose of that, I assume was to obtain to seize 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.199 the firearms that have been collected by the local police. 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:55.880 First of all, it was to liaise with the detectives 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.720 who were at Mundajong Police Station dealing with the incident. 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:01.439 But at that locate there were a number of firearms 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.160 that had been stored and so yes, as well as 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.240 liaising with the detectives, it was to seize certain exhibits 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:08.760 that were present at the police station. 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:13.240 And in our supplementary report there's some photographs of a 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.720 firearms cabinet in which those firearms were seized. Is that 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.480 the Mondejong Police station firearms cabinet. 0:11:19.679 --> 0:11:23.440 Yes, those firearms come in for so they've been seized 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:25.920 in the course of a warrant or something along those lines. 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.559 The cupboard is to store the firearms prior to them 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:30.559 being moved to a central storage depot. 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.840 Senior Constable in Skip goes on to point out that 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:39.800 they weren't considered forensic exhibits and as such were left unsealed. 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.600 Did you seize any ammunition in that visit? 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:43.960 Not at that time. 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.480 No, At what point in time did you seize ammunition? 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:49.840 There was no ammunition seized by me from the Senate, 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.640 I understand it had already been seized. A number of 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:55.360 items of ammunition seized and they had packaged some of 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.600 them together. So I can't attest as to the continuity 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.559 of where certain exhibit items of ammunition were taken from 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.679 and what they were put in with in the same bag, 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:07.960 or anything along those lines. I understand that some of 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.439 them were separated out at a later date due to 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.120 the fact that they were identified as being perhaps more 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:17.080 pertinent to the investigation. But yes, I can't attest to 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:19.960 how or when they were seized, what they were put 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.439 in with, or anything along those lines from the scene. 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:26.320 So if I showed you photographs of two cartridges, you 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:30.000 couldn't tell me where they were stored, where they were taken, 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.000 how they were what they were kept. 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.200 Is there is a record on the incident Management system 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.960 of certain items that were stored together, and there seems 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.559 to be entries on there as to where items were 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:44.840 taken from from one exhibit, placed into another exhibit, and 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.000 separated out. I didn't actually do that, so I can 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.200 only attest to what's written on the IMS system, the 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:54.959 incident management system, what actually occurred, where they were from originally, 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.439 which bags they went into, and then who took them 0:12:57.440 --> 0:12:59.280 out and put them where. I can't attest to that. 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.160 I can only tell you the point that they were transferred 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.480 to the forensics Register and we took possession of them, 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:06.000 perhaps for an examination. 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:11.280 So it seems nobody knows what ammunition is relevant to 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.960 Amy's death. So it's not clear if it went missing 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:20.360 or not. All we know is that WA police did 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.160 go looking for it a day after Amy died. 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.880 So after you went to the Mondujon police station and 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.520 you seize the firearms and you spoke to the detective 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.960 in charge of what I assume is Operation Juhnde, what 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.320 did you do next in relation to this investigation. 0:13:38.600 --> 0:13:40.320 I don't know whether it was the detective who was 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:42.800 in charge, but I believe it was Detective Dandly, if 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.680 I've pronounced that incorrectly, I apologize, but I believe that 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.440 he may have been taking on the role as physical 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.920 material manager. They gave us information in respect to what 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:54.760 had been alleged to have occurred, what it had occurred, 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.400 what police actions had been taken up to that point, 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.120 where perhaps exhibits were and I think they pro I 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.200 did my colleague, Senior Constable meets with a disk of 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.079 some photographs that he later transferred to the forensics register. 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:09.840 Obviously there was information that those firearms were in the 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:13.080 they were seized in the firearms cabinet, so they were 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.240 subsequently seized, and then after that point we attended the 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:18.200 location where the alleged incident had occurred. 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.800 That attendance, what was the purpose of that attendance, knowing 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.680 that it had been forensically cleaned in the interim. 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:28.480 I didn't actually enter inside the residence myself. My colleague, 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.640 Senior Constable Meets did, along with Senior Sergeant Diamond and 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.120 Detective Danderly, and I believe they made a preliminary what 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.160 we call a preliminary forensic assessment, and that is to 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.560 have a look at what's still in sitsu at the location, 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.920 see whether there are any other forensic opportunities, and then 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.440 potentially direct other units from there to attend and undertake 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:51.800 certain examinations if there were those forensic opportunities still available. 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.040 So they then exited the premises and I made a 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:57.400 brief summation on the forensics register as to what they 0:14:57.440 --> 0:14:59.080 had told me they had seen inside. 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.000 From there, it was the next task that you attended 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.720 to mortuary and the forensic examination. 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.400 Myself and some of the colleagues of the other disciplines 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:12.160 conducted a co analysis. Officers from BPA blood spatter pattern analysis. 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.160 I believe there was senior Constable Walker from the fingerprint unit, 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:17.960 and we did a co examination of the four ten 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.760 shotgun that was seized and alleged to have been involved 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.120 in the incident, and so we undertook the examination. I 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:27.000 made measurements and documented that firearm further, and I attended 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:31.680 our reference library and selected this firearm which had similar characteristics, 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:33.920 to take to the post mortem in order to use 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:36.880 it in any potential reconstruction event that we might do 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:38.080 during the post mortem. 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.840 And you noted in our report that there were relatively 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:45.920 minor size differences between the firearm that was the reference firearm. 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.800 Yes, there were a couple of millimeters on some of 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.320 the aspects of it, which I believe that in the 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:53.800 grand scheme of things, when we got to the post mortem, 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:55.480 it may not prove to be an issue at all 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.000 because they were so minute. 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:01.960 So you attended the post mortem's, yeah, and I understand 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.080 you undertook observations of the wound to the right side 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:05.880 of Amy's head. 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:06.520 Is that right? 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:07.040 Yes? 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:07.760 I did. 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:08.720 What did you observe? 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:12.160 There are certain aspects of gunshot wounds, the characteristics that 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.320 can perhaps tell us certain distances that the muzzle of 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.360 the firearm was from the actual target itself from where 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.280 the gunshot wound is. And some of those characteristics are 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:25.400 deposition of soot. There didn't appear to be any noticeable 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:28.440 deposition of soot, searing where the muzzle is too close 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:31.120 as to see a flesh, and sometimes baking some of 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.080 that soot as well. It can't be removed even when 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:37.680 white clean. There's also characteristics of a muzzle imprint, so 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.520 the muzzle of the firearm leaving an imprint if it's 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.600 in such close proximity to the skin. There's also the 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:47.520 possibility that we look for unburnt propellant particles, which again 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.280 can give us an indication of distance. So those are 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.600 the characteristics that we looked at, as well as a 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:55.680 potential trajectory front on shot that may have passed through 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.680 the head. There was significant disruption to the head and 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.280 therefore we were limit in regards to the trajectory that 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.119 we could assess. But the characteristics that I did observe, 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.280 especially the imprint of the second non firing barrel on 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.439 the skin and the absence of a great deal of 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.040 soot and the actual lack of spread of the shot 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:15.439 from the skull. I was able to determine that the 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.520 firearm had been in contact with or incomplete contact with 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.640 the head, So a slight gap against a temple at 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:22.840 the time of discharge. 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.639 Missus Tyler refers to a photo of the wound. 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.560 So that circular pattern where you've got a little white 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.280 arrow pointing to that is the imprint effectively of the 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.440 barrel being held against Amy's head. 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:40.359 Yes, that's correct. The mechanism for which that occurs is 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:42.920 that there's a large amount of gas that enters the 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.280 wound itself, and that can sometimes cause the wound to 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:49.760 balloon back towards the actual muzzle of the firearm and 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:51.000 cause an imprint as well. 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.359 So that's from the barrel where the cartridge didn't fire. 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:55.960 That's correct, Yes, And. 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:59.040 So that allows you to say with relative confidence that 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:01.600 the muzzle of the fire arm was held close to, 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:03.520 if not against, Amy's head. 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.199 That and the other characteristics the severe disruption to the 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:09.040 head where a lot of gas has flowed into the 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:12.800 actual brain itself, the skull itself, the characteristics of the 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.520 defect in the skull being that there appeared to be 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.800 no spread of the shot it was all going through 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.520 in a solid column of shot rather than starting to diverge. Yes, 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.080 that indicated the proximity was that it was in contact 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:27.280 or incomplete contact. 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.600 And we've heard from the forensic pathologists this morning that 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:34.359 she couldn't specify the angle at which the projectiles was 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.560 traveling through the skull. Do you agree with that position 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:40.119 or do you think the angle can be determined? 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:42.920 The best I could do at the time was to say, 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:47.440 and now on review is to say that it's certainly 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.879 from right to left across the face. As to whether 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.240 it was slightly downwards, upwards, back forwards, nah, I can't 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:59.760 make that assessment. From the severity of the disruption, it 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.080 didn't allow us to make that sort of assessment. 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.960 Well, you agree with the general evidence seems to be 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:06.680 it's largely horizontal. 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:09.399 Yes, there didn't appear to be any extremes. 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.480 You then participated in a scenario reconstruction while at the 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:14.680 state mortuary. 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.919 I did. Yes. With regards to the reference firearm that 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:19.240 we took with us, Yes. 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:22.200 What did that involve? What were you hoping to establish? 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:24.520 Well, at that point, we had characterized the fact that 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:27.800 it was a contact wound, and so we placed the 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.199 reference firearm in a position where it was touching the 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:32.879 contact wound, and then we're able to show whether or 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.000 not there we were to extend the hands of the 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:38.640 deceased towards the trigger, and it was to give reference 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.840 as to whether or not the hands were capable of 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:43.320 reaching the trigger with the muzzle being in contact with 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:47.080 the temple. It's sometimes the case that we may find 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.400 that the distance that we've assessed means that we can 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.000 exclude the potential for somebody to have self inflicted a 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:54.959 gunshot injury by not being able to reach the trigger. 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.959 I understand that you observed an injury to Aimy's left 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:01.320 hand while the post mortem was conducted. 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:02.080 Is that right? 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:03.480 Yes, that's correct. 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.000 What did you understand that injury to be? What were 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:07.159 your observations? 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:08.920 He refers to a photo. 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:12.000 This wound was noticed before the body was washed, but 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.879 it was also apparent after the body was washed, and 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.840 there was this dark discoloration. Often when a firearm is 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:21.359 in close proximity, as well as just searing the skin, 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:24.680 as I mentioned previously, this soot can embed the actual 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.000 flesh itself, and even after washing, you can't remove the 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.439 embedded suit and so it was swabbed by Senior Constable Meeks. 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.600 It's purported described in literature that an injury such as 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:37.720 this can occur when the portion of skin in that 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.080 area is actually over the muzzle of the firearm, slightly 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:43.600 over the muzzle of the firearm, so that when the 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.520 shot and the word exit the muzzle, they can contact 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:49.080 the skin and cause an injury such as this, where 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:52.000 the soot can be possibly impregnated as well as causing 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:53.240 the grayish type of injury. 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:55.439 So it would be if the hand was close to 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:57.719 the head near the muzzle at the time it's fired. 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.360 Yes, that's correct, and that would again another reason why 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.520 I've mentioned that it could be an incomplete contact wound 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.320 is that is that that may have caused there to 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.920 be a slight gap in between the actual head itself 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.960 and the muzzle. One of those was how it can 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:16.919 be over the muzzle at the time of discharge. Another 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:18.960 one that we that I considered at the time was 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.720 the foresight, which is the front side of the firearm itself. 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:25.959 It's in the proximity of the end of the muzzle, 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.880 and during the discharge of a four to ten there 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.679 is a certain injury as well So those are the 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:35.000 two things that I've highlighted as potential for causing injury. 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:39.200 Ms. Tyler wants to know if the gun residue could 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:39.679 have been. 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:43.040 Lost there were paper bags on the deceased hands. 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:45.679 Yes, the coroner follows up. 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:47.800 All right, and that's what you need to have on 0:21:47.920 --> 0:21:50.520 there in order to try and preserve any gunshot residue. 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:51.040 Is that right? 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.480 Yes, yes, I can't. The loss of gunshot residue from 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:58.840