WEBVTT - Communication Is Key, But How Do We Do It? Uncut with Charles Duhigg 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:12.640 This episode was recorded on Cameragle Land. Hi guys, and 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:15.080 welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura, 0:00:15.240 --> 0:00:15.840 I'm Brittany. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:18.200 Okay, we've said it a hundred times. We say it 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:20.240 on every gas Gun Cut episode. We say it pretty 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.200 much on every episode ever, every episode, six hundred and 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:25.200 fifty episodes we've said it. Yeah, So, I mean, it's 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:26.880 nice that we're like touching based on this again, but 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:29.920 communication really is everything when it comes to relationships. 0:00:30.400 --> 0:00:30.600 Now. 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:32.120 When we go to school, we get taught so many 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.519 different things. You get taught how to do algebra. No 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:37.320 one teaches you how to communicate properly with people around you. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.519 Some people seem to be innately good at it. Some 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.839 people seem to be quite terrible at it. And I 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.400 think that we often think we either a just skilled 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:47.960 at this or we're not skilled at this, not that 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.600 communication is a thing that we can learn and we 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.400 can become better at if we know what it is 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:56.080 that we need to focus on. Joining the podcast today 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.920 is Politzer Prize winning reporter and author Charles Jewig. Now 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.880 charles most recent book, it's titled The Super Communicators. So 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:07.160 if anyone knows about communication, he is the man. Charles 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:10.560 is investigating the simple and tested methods for communicating and 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:13.440 connecting with anyone, and he also went very deep on 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.760 what exactly makes someone the person that everyone wants to 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.080 talk to in a room, the person that everyone wants 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:21.400 to have a conversation with, whether it be in a 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.400 romantic relationship, at work, with friends, or even with strangers. 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:27.360 Charles, Welcome to the podcast. 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:29.840 Thank you for having me. It's such a joy to 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:30.280 be here. 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:32.399 We're so excited to talk to you today because, as 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.240 we mentioned, it is one of those thrawaway comments that 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:39.560 we make but everyone makes that's constantly like just communicate. 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.080 But we don't ever really break down what that is. 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:42.679 So I am excited that we're going to get into 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:43.840 the nitty gritty of that today. 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.600 But before we do, we love to throw our. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:48.560 Guests under the bus, and we start with an accidentally 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.640 unfiltered Which is your most embarrassing moment? Do you have 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:52.520 one for us today? 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:55.680 Yeah? I was thinking about this. So our last year 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:57.360 in high school here has got named senior year. I 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.360 don't know if you guys use the same terminology. During 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.920 my senior I took a girl to senior prom and 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:08.000 as we were driving back from the prom. My car 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:14.200 caught on fire, and it yeah, yeah, it was. I 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:15.880 would love to say it's because there was so much 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.440 heat being generated inside the car, but that's not what happened. 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:20.960 What happened was that literally it was an old car 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.880 and we're driving down and my date Lexi Lexie Patronas 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:25.880 is her name. She's great. She was like, she's like, 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:27.960 you know, it sort of smells like smoke and like 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.760 maybe like burning rubber or something is something going on outside. 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.040 And I was like, nah, we're good. And then suddenly, 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:37.880 like the smoke starts coming through the vents. Yeah, it 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:38.399 was not great. 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:39.760 At least it was on the way home and not 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:41.440 on the way there, like that would. 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:42.639 Have been far worse, exactly. 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.480 Yeah, but there was some solid opportunities there for like, 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:47.480 you know, this is just because you're so hot. 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:49.960 We most of it. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.600 I would have loved to been that suave in high school. 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:54.200 But the truth of matter is I was like, ah 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.760 ah ah ah, I had no game whatsoever. 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.440 How did I mean, talking about communication in general, how 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:03.280 did this become an area of focus for you and 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:06.120 something that you wanted to research and thought, you know what, 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:07.280 I'm going to write a book about this. 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:09.880 It's actually because of a pattern I fell into with 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:11.920 my wife, who is not Lexi a completely different way. 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:14.840 We all wonder where Lexi is now. 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.000 She has kids of her own, she's great. But I 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:19.160 married a woman named Liz, who I like a lot. 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:21.240 She's a marine biologist. I like her a lot. 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:22.119 I'm glad. 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:25.760 So I got into this bad pattern, which I'm going 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:27.360 to put it out there, and I'm going to guess 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:29.240 that maybe you guys are familiar with this pattern, and 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.840 everyone is listening as familiar with this pattern, which is 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:33.520 I would come home after a long day work and 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.680 I'd be like super frustrated or worked out. But you know, 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.320 I'd be telling my wife, like, you know, my boss 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.400 doesn't appreciate me enough and my coworkers don't realize what 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:43.240 a genius I. 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:45.480 Am and I don't have that problem. 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:49.120 Well my wife, Yeah, my wife would offer me this 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.000 really good advice. She would say, like, why don't you 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:52.640 take your boss out to lunch? And you guys came 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.240 out to know each other better, And instead of being 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.640 able to listen to her advice and hear it, I 0:03:57.640 --> 0:03:59.680 would get even more upset and I'd be like, you're 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:01.600 supposed to be on my side, you're supposed to be 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.240 outraged on my behalf. Then she would get upset because 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:06.920 I was attacking her for giving me good advice. Does 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:07.680 this sound familiar? 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:08.760 Absolutely? 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:09.920 Yeah. 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:12.520 I think it's interesting though with some of these conversations, 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:16.080 because sometimes you don't want someone to give advice, you 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:18.760 want someone to just listen and be a sounding board. 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.440 That gets old very quickly, like people don't want to 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:23.400 play the role of just being a sounding board to 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.120 the same problem on repeat. But sometimes I think it's 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:28.599 interesting to almost ask the question of like do you 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:30.800 want a solution or do you want me to just 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:31.880 listen to you? 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:34.480 That is a great, great way of handling it, because 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:36.080 when I went to experts, I went to all these 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.920 neuroscientists asked them like why am I making this mistake 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.480 again and again me and all my friends, And they said, well, 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:44.040 look what we figured out is when you're having a discussion, 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.760 you think you're talking about one thing, but actually every 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:50.680 discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations, and 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:53.000 those conversations they tend to usually fall into one of 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.919 three buckets. Right. There's these practical conversations where we're like 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:59.760 solving problems or making plans together. But then there's a 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.920 conversations where I don't want you to solve my emotions. 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.039 I want you to listen, and I want you to 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:09.200 empathize exactly what you just said. And then there's social 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:11.719 conversations about how we relate to each other in society. 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:14.160 Yeah, and it sounds like and it happens a lot, 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:16.400 but it sounds like you were just seeking validation. You 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:18.920 didn't want an answer. You wanted her to say, yes, baby, 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:20.080 you are a genius. 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:20.919 He doesn't. 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:21.520 That's exactly. 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:22.520 They don't deserve you. 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:24.560 And you're like yes, and let yes, queen, And that's 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:25.880 how you wanted that conversation to go. 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:28.640 That's exactly. I'm not sure yes Queen totally would have 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:30.400 been right for me, but you're exactly right. That's what 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:32.160 I was looking for, as I was looking for like 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.080 this empathy in this And this is what the researchers 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.880 said is they said, look, if you're having different kinds 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:39.919 of conversations at the same moment, if you're having an 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.839 emotional conversation and your wife is having a practical conversation, 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.200 you literally cannot hear each other fully and you definitely 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:50.840 don't feel connected to each other. But if if you 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:52.400 take a moment and you start having the same kind 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:54.400 of conversation you say something like, look, do you want 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:56.000 me to solve this problem for you? Or do you 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.240 want me just to like hear you out and like 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.400 empathize and offer you support or exactly what you just said. 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:06.520 At that moment, you become what's known as neurally entrained, 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.880 and it's the core of communication. This neural and trainment. 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:13.200 Our brains actually begin looking more and more similar, and 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:15.239 that's when not only can we hear each other much better, 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:17.280 but we feel connected to each other. 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:20.279 So that's a learned character trey that you can have 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.040 in a relationship that you might not necessarily start with, 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.440 but you can work to connect further. 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:28.960 Is that what you're saying absolutely, And in fact, what 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:31.600 we've learned is that people who are supercommunicators, and by 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:33.680 the way, all of us are supercommunicators at one time 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:36.360 or another, usually during a week. But people who are 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:40.880 consistent supercommunicators, they have learned how to diagnose what kind 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.240 of conversation is going on and match the other person 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:46.960 or invite them to match them. And within psychology, this 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:50.680 is actually known as the matching principle that successful communication 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.279 requires having the same kind of conversation at the same moment. 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:56.080 Charles, I want to back it up a little bit 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.800 because I think it's so interesting how some people seem 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:02.679 like they just intuitively good at this, or some people 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.599 seem to have cracked the code with aun't having to 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.279 go through the turmoil of all the trenches of figuring 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:11.440 out what it is that they're doing wrong. Are there 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.680 certain personality types that are better at communicating or is 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:16.800 it purely just a kind of a lucky deal with 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:18.480 how we're brought up and socialized. 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:20.680 So I'm really glad you brought this up, because there 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.160 is this like kind of cultural bias, right, like some 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.040 people are born with the gift of the gap, or 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.080 they're like so outgoing, And what all the research tells 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:31.400 us is that that's not true. Communication is a set 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.600 of learned skills, and some people learn those skills a 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.200 little bit earlier, and they might have grown up in 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.360 environments where their parents or their teachers kind of habituated 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:42.480 them to recognize the skills. But what's interesting is if 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:45.120 you talk to super communicators and you ask them, were 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:49.200 you always good at communication, they inevitably say no. They 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.360 say things like you know, when I was in school, 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.320 I had trouble making friends, and so I really had 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:55.560 to study how kids talk to each other or or 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.560 my parents got divorced and I had to be the 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:02.040 peacemaker between them. Yeah, indication is simply a learned skill 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:05.840 skills that any of us can learn, and nobody is 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.120 born knowing how to do them. But some people practice 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.200 them a little bit more, and when we practice them, 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.040 they become habits very very quickly. 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.400 What is it that you define make someone a super communicator? 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:18.920 Here's a good test of it. Okay, I'll ask you 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.360 guys this question. When you come home from a long day, right, 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:24.760 you're exhausted, you're you're going to a kind of bad mood, 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.560 and you want to call someone who you know just 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:29.240 talking to them on the phone is going to make 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:32.240 you feel better. Do you know who you would call? Like, 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:33.600 does that person pop into your mind? 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:34.000 Yeah? 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:34.520 My husband? 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:38.640 Yeah, your husband, yeah, your sister and your husband. So 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.439 for you, your fiance fiance, right, well we don't want 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:48.000 to go Yeah, for you your sister and your fiance, 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:52.520 they are super communicators and you're super communicator. Back to them, right, 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:55.120 You know how to ask the right question. You know 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.320 what the right question is. You know how to show 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.800 them that you're paying attention, that you're not distracted. You 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.199 know when they want empathy and when they want a solution, 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.120 and how to sometimes give them a kick in the 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.480 pants and sometimes just say, ah, man, that sucks, I'm 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.480 so sorry that happened to you. Yeah, we know how 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.280 to be super communicators with the people who are closest 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.439 to us. What consistent super communicators have realized is those 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:17.480 same skills that you use on your sister and you 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.360 use on your fiance, you can use them on anyone, 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.240 and when you do, you have very close conversations. 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:25.920 I feel like it may be a common misconception when 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:30.840 we talk about communication super communication that it's entirely default 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:34.800 back to the person that's delivering the dialogue. How important 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.480 in being a super communicator is actually the quiet? 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:38.120 The listening? 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:43.040 Oh h incredibly important? Right? Like, I mean we all 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:45.520 know people who like they just talk and talk and talk. 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:49.120 Nobody's like that guy is really a super communicator. Instead, 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:51.480 you're like, I want to avoid that guy at the party, 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:56.080 like the plague. Right, Listening is an enormous part of communication, 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.320 but you have to listen the right way, right, not 0:09:59.360 --> 0:09:59.920 all listening is. 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:02.720 I think that this is so interesting because so much 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:06.079 of the conversation that, especially when we're talking about relationships 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:09.840 or in workplaces, when you do talk about communication, it 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.600 is about voicing what you want and voicing what it 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.599 is about how you feel and telling people and setting boundaries. 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.959 And there is so much information out there around how 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.240 to be better at speaking what it is that you 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.760 are experiencing or your own personal moments. You know that 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:28.880 there's very little information out there as to how to 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.200 be a better listener and how to process what's being 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.679 said to you and how you respond to that. I 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:36.400 really think that that's kind of where we're let down 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.360 a little bit and how we navigate these sort of 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:40.040 situations and these conversations. 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:42.640 I absolutely agree. And there's some skills we can talk 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.280 about that make you a better listener, and one of 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:50.920 the first ones is paradoxically is asking questions, asking more 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.320 questions and asking the right questions. The first step of 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.320 listening is very active. It's asking someone a question, but 0:10:56.360 --> 0:11:00.319 not all questions are as powerful as others. Some questions 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.079 work better, and within psychology, these are known as deep questions, 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.920 and a deep question is something that asks about your values, 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:11.200 or your beliefs, or your experiences. And that can sound 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.120 a little bit intimidating, but it's as easy as like, 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.040 if you meet someone who's a doctor, instead of saying, oh, 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:18.640 what hospital do you work at, saying to them, oh, 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.440 what made you decide to go to medical school? Right 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.319 that second question, what made you decide to go to 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.199 medical school, I'm asking them how they feel about their 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.360 life rather than the facts of their life. That's a 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.160 deep question and it invites that person to say something real. 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:34.960 So that's step one. Ask deep questions. 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.920 And is this to form also like to find a commonality, 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.440 to form a connection with them, to bring you closer. 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:44.960 Absolutely all the better because let's imagine I say, like, 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:47.080 what made you decide to become a doctor and they say, oh, 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.560 you know, when I was a kid, my dad got 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.240 sick and I thought I saw those doctors, and I like, 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:53.800 I wanted to be a healer. I knew I wanted 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:55.720 to be like them. So they're in a kind of 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:58.959 social or emotional mindset right at that moment, it's really 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.000 natural for me to say like, oh, you know what 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:03.520 that's interesting because I'm a lawyer, and I became a 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.600 lawyer because I saw my uncle get arrested when I 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:07.960 was a kid. Yeah, now, all of a sudden, and 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.480 you wouldn't necessarily think that being a lawyer or doctor 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:13.160 is similar, or that seeing your uncle is similar to 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.359 your dad getting sick. But when we ask those deep questions, 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:21.040 we see the opportunities for things that we have in common, 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:22.400 and that's really powerful. 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.960 You did specify that not all listening is created equal. 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:27.560 What do you mean by that? 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:32.040 So the first step of listening is asking these questions right, 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:35.200 asking deep questions, learning and getting comfortable with asking questions. 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.760 The second step is that once someone has said something 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.800 to you, it's really important to prove that you're listening, 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.600 particularly if it's a tough conversation. If you're having a 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:49.200 disagreement with your sister, you're having a disagreement with your fiance, 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:51.720 and there's like a little bit of tension there, or 0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:54.440 maybe there's something that you don't necessarily see eye to 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.160 eye on. There is this sneaking suspicion in the back 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.480 of all of our minds that the other person is 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.079 not actually listening, they're just waiting their turn to speak. 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.800 So how do we overcome that. There's this technique known 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.280 as looping for understanding that they teach in law school 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.880 and business schools and has these three steps. The first 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:15.880 step is ask a question. The second step is, once 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.520 the person has answered the question, restate what they said 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.400 in your own words. And the goal here is not mimicry. 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.280 The goal is to prove that you're paying attention, to 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.199 prove that you're kind of processing what I heard you 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:29.839 say is this and that reminded me of something you 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.840 said last week and then and most of us do 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.200 step one and two somewhat intuitively right. But step three 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.400 is the step I always forget because after you say 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.280 here's what I heard you say, ask if you got 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:43.959 it right? Yeah, Say like, oh, did I hear you correctly? 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.360 Because what you're actually doing in that moment is you're 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.800 asking for permission to acknowledge that you were listening. 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.080 You used a really great example at the very start 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.080 of this conversation around how you'd come home, you'd vent 0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:58.199 about your day, and then you're in this loophole about 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:02.360 getting and receiving a great advice and then not being 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.319 at a place where you could receive that great advice. 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:07.080 Where did you two come to? Like how did you 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:08.520 find your resolution to that? 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.920 So now when I start complaining about my day, my 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.280 wife will often say, do you want me to help 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:16.360 you brainstorm solutions? Or do you just need to like 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:18.679 kind of like get this off your chest? Right, She's 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:19.960 asking me, like do you want to have an emotional 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.640 conversation or a practical conversation? It's like magic, right, I 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.520 always know what the answer is, and like it's so 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:28.240 nice to be asked that way. And they teach teachers 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.400 to do this too. They teach teachers that when a 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:32.400 student comes up and they have something important they want 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:35.200 to discuss, the first thing the teacher should say is 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:40.760 do you want to be helped, hugged or heard, which 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.080 is of course the practical, the emotional, and the social. 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.480 And kids know what the answer is. They'll be like, oh, no, 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:48.080 I don't I don't need a hug. I just want 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:50.160 you to know what Jimmy's doing to me. I'm just 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:54.600 what kind of conversation, thank you? I just wanted to 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:55.280 get in trouble. 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.160 It's interesting And I think let's sitting in that for 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:01.520 a second, because I don't think many people, and in 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.560 such an emotion fueled argument, like we go back to 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.880 saying you're fighting with your partner, most people, I think, 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:12.000 in that situation are already planning the retort. They're planning 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:14.800 their counter argument, whereas they're not even it doesn't matter 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.000 what that person is saying for the next fifteen seconds. 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:18.840 And I'll openly admit that I've done that in the past, 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.160 and they're thinking about what they're going to openly admit 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.080 I do it now. Well, they come back at them 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:29.160 with something else. But when does it cross a line? 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:31.800 And I am guilty of this. I am really guilty 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:35.000 of doing exactly what you said. When I say, let 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:36.560 me just get this right, Like I just want to 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:38.920 confirm I've heard you're right. I say that when I 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.640 know I've heard them right, and it almost becomes. 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:42.640 A manipulation technique. 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:44.800 And I hate to say that, but I'm like, I'm 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:46.760 not asking you for confirmation because I know, and I 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:48.880 say it in a way and I shouldn't, but I'm like, 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:51.120 just let me get this right. What you're saying is 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:53.960 and I use it as a way to almost come 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:54.520 back at them. 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:56.080 So where does that manipulation? 0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:59.440 You shouldn't use it as a rebuttal. You shouldn't be like, 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:01.120 you know, when you ask a deep question. The deep 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:03.520 question shouldn't be like, I'm just wondering, were you born 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.040 this stupid or did you just grow up? Like we 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.240 shouldn't We shouldn't take an argument and hide it as 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:12.600 a question. Yeah, but imagine that you give yourself. Next 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.720 time you're having like a tiff with your fiance, imagine 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.320 that you gave yourself this assignment. I want to repeat 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.280 back as accurately as I can what I think he's 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.640 trying to tell me. Yeah, when that's your assignment to yourself, 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.520 it's really hard to get into that pattern where you 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:29.800 just start coming up with retorts in your head because 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.040 like you're paying so much attention just so that you 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:33.760 can be like, look, what I heard you say is this? 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.040 Am I getting this right? As opposed to what I 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.280 heard you say was really stupid? Am I right that 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:39.240 it's really stupid? 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.120 Well, I don't say that, but I guess that's the passiveness, right, 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.760 Like that's the message in the way I deliver it. 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:46.880 But also, I think it's a tricky thing to only 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.320 talk about it in terms of conflict, because when you're 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:52.600 having conflict with someone already, you also have it loaded 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.520 with this idea of wanting to be right or winning 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.600 the argument, or making sure that like you are the 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:00.600 one who is correct. I guess at the end of 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:01.880 the day and that they come around to see your 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:06.520 point of view. That's probably almost the trickiest space to 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.760 get good at communication. I think there's so many smaller 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.560 ways that you can practice at first, so that the 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:14.280 next time you're in a blow up with your partner, 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:15.679 you're not like, oh cool, I'm going to use those 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:19.560 communication skills, but I'm really fucking angry, I'm super overstimulated, 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:21.879 and it's probably not a great platform for me to 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.239 be an incredible communicator in this moment. But I think 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.600 if you've done the groundwork and you know it and 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:29.320 you know that you're able to do it, then you 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:31.000 can kind of step back from it a little bit. 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:31.960 When you get to that point. 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.280 Well, I think it's really smart. And think about when 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.159 you guys talk to your sisters. I'm guessing if I 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:41.000 was to eavesdrop on those conversations, you'd be shocked. You 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.119 would be You're proving to each other that you're listening 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.840