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Speaker 1: This is The Happy Family's podcast with doctor Justin Coilson,

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Speaker 1: where Luc and Susie our husband and wife radio team

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Speaker 1: with three young boys. This is the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants some answers.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: A topic of conversation that we're about to have is

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Speaker 3: going to be one that is ultimately the theme is

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Speaker 3: actually about how as parents we can have some of

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Speaker 3: these intense and grown up conversations with our young children

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Speaker 3: because we have to, because they're being exposed to stuff

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Speaker 3: from their schoolmates and in the schoolyard, on computers and

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Speaker 3: on billboards and in all sorts of language and conversations,

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Speaker 3: and we want to avoid the conversation about things of

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Speaker 3: a human nature that we even the uncomfortableness of me

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Speaker 3: talking about it now is what we have to face

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Speaker 3: with a child who can't possibly comprehend what we struggle

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Speaker 3: to articulate.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Justin Coilson is joining us in studio, and Justin,

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Speaker 1: you have heard the intro that Luke gave that got long.

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Speaker 2: And you look so look wouldn't say the word because

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Speaker 2: I understand why he wouldn't say pornography. Yeah, but that's

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Speaker 2: what the conversations about. Okay, so if you've got children

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Speaker 2: with you who are young, you might want to go to.

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Speaker 1: The podcast instead.

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Speaker 2: There we go so little later time. The matter that

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Speaker 2: we'll be discussing is sensitive. It is. We won't be

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Speaker 2: using any explicit terms or anything like that, but we

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Speaker 2: are talking about explicit material and how to talk to

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Speaker 2: kids about that.

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Speaker 3: And that's the thing. So we've in conversations that we've had,

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Speaker 3: and there's been a lot of them that I've been

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Speaker 3: involved with recent times, knowing how big an issue this

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Speaker 3: is in our world and in particular with our children.

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Speaker 3: The highlight was an eight year old who at school

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Speaker 3: was looking at material and having conversations with someone's children

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Speaker 3: who are also eight and seven in ways that go.

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Speaker 3: If I'm not talking to them, their friends are, and

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Speaker 3: their friends have no idea what they're talking about or

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Speaker 3: and they what they're saying is not what I want

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Speaker 3: my children to believe or unders So we have to

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Speaker 3: have the conversation justin But these our seven year olds

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Speaker 3: aren't capable of understanding.

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Speaker 2: As adults, we're.

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Speaker 3: Barely capable of understanding some of this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about this really, really clearly, because

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Speaker 2: the information that we share today will be important for

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Speaker 2: every parent. The first thing that we need to understand

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Speaker 2: is when children are on average exposed to explicit material,

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Speaker 2: which almost always happens online. It's very rare that it

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Speaker 2: doesn't the days of you know, finding something in a

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Speaker 2: quote unquote dad's you know, cupboard or under the bed

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Speaker 2: or whatever. Those days I'm mostly gone. It's all found online. Now.

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Speaker 2: The average age of exposure, according to the best research

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Speaker 2: we've got, which isn't actually great research, is somewhere around

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Speaker 2: about the age of eleven.

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Speaker 3: And that's average.

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Speaker 2: That's the average of the earliest No, so, I mean

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Speaker 2: there's kids who are being exposed as toddles and infants. Really,

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Speaker 2: but I hear consistent stories like the one you've just shared.

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Speaker 2: You know, mum says my eight year old was on

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Speaker 2: the school bus and one of the kids in year

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Speaker 2: six something and thought it was so funny, and you know,

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Speaker 2: or all the kids are laughing and someone tries to

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Speaker 2: get into the circle and then they see some explicit content.

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Speaker 2: It's not unusual for children in grade three, maybe even

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Speaker 2: grade two. So we're talking about seven and eight year

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Speaker 2: olds to be exposed to explicit material now at the

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Speaker 2: risk of I'm not a consumer, but I've sat in

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Speaker 2: on enough talks, and I've read enough research papers, and

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Speaker 2: I've actually lectured on the topic myself. Having looked at

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Speaker 2: the academic research. The material that our children are being

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Speaker 2: exposed to today is not anything like the material that

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Speaker 2: we may have been exposed to as teenagers back in

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Speaker 2: the seventies or the eighties or even perhaps the nineties.

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Speaker 2: The Internet has changed it and it has become vastly

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Speaker 2: more extreme and vastly more concerning. So as parents, we

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Speaker 2: have got to be talking to our kids. And I

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Speaker 2: know we've got to wrap this up quickly, but I've

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Speaker 2: got I've got to mention this really, really clearly. We

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Speaker 2: have got to be having the conversations with our kids

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Speaker 2: from I think somewhere around the age of eight or nine,

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Speaker 2: because the chances are they're going to come across it

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Speaker 2: in one form or another on average by the time

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Speaker 2: they're ten or eleven. We've got to be talking to

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Speaker 2: them early. And that means we've got to know how.

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Speaker 3: So we're going to deal with that very soon. But

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Speaker 3: this is the thing to really understand. No longer are

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Speaker 3: they looking for it being the only way they get

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Speaker 3: exposed to it. It is coming up when they're looking

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Speaker 3: at cricket scores, it's coming up when they're searching YouTube,

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Speaker 3: it's coming up when they're doing innocent things. And that

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Speaker 3: is a problem because you can't filter a website with

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Speaker 3: cricket scores knowing because it's not flagged as adult content.

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Speaker 3: But this is some of the marketing algorithms are forcing

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Speaker 3: this into your world, whether you like it or not.

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Speaker 2: Look it is everywhere. There was a UK report from

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Speaker 2: the UK Child Commissioner a couple of years ago called

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Speaker 2: basically porn is every Everywhere. That was the name of

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Speaker 2: the report. You can look it up online. It's a

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Speaker 2: fantastic report. It's worth looking at. It's a couple of

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Speaker 2: years old now, but absolutely brilliant. I would suggest that

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Speaker 2: most of the time there will be some sort of

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Speaker 2: warning signs, some sort of signal that you're about to

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Speaker 2: tread somewhere digitally that's unsafe, and even kids that aren't

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Speaker 2: that savvy will usually have a sense. But yes, you're right,

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Speaker 2: sometimes it does just explode into their world completely unexpectedly. Usually, though,

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Speaker 2: they'll be exposed to it by a web search or

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Speaker 2: by somebody showing them something that they were curious about.

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Speaker 2: Usually an older kid, sleepover party, weekends after school, no

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Speaker 2: adult supervision. It's those kinds of environments where that stuff

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Speaker 2: usually pops up.

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Speaker 1: We live in a culture that has an opt out system,

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Speaker 1: which means that everybody automatically is opted in.

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Speaker 2: Interestingly, in the UK when it comes to explicit material,

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Speaker 2: they've got an opt in and about seventy percent of

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Speaker 2: people choose not to opt in. Wouldn't it be great

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Speaker 2: if our government would actually grow a spine and do that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and look, it's a conversation on the table, but

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Speaker 1: we can't make that choice on our own. But what

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Speaker 1: we can make the choice of what we do have

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Speaker 1: control in is how we help shape our young minds,

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Speaker 1: the minds that are ow us to raise our children's

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Speaker 1: minds around this topic of explicit material that they have

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Speaker 1: access to and will be exposed to one way or another.

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Speaker 1: But how do we have the conversation because you've said,

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Speaker 1: let's start talking at eight or nine years.

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Speaker 2: Old about that specific content. So let me backtrack a

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Speaker 2: little bit. A lot of people will say we need

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Speaker 2: to we need to just have good filters, we need

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Speaker 2: to monitor what our kids are doing online. Not good enough,

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Speaker 2: You can fence your pool, but you can't fence the ocean.

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Speaker 2: Your children will be exposed to screens in places other

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Speaker 2: than your home and on your device. Yes, but once

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Speaker 2: it's time to have the conversation, this should be part

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Speaker 2: of a much bigger conversation that begins when our children

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Speaker 2: are young. When our children are inferants in toddlers, we

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Speaker 2: should be talking about intimacy and privacy, talking about things

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Speaker 2: like the swimwear rule and making sure that our bodies

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Speaker 2: are safe. Body safety begins from a young age. As

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Speaker 2: our children get older, we start to we need to

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Speaker 2: start to talk to them about issues around procreation. And

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Speaker 2: I would suggest that we want to start having those conversations.

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Speaker 2: And note I'm saying conversations plural. We no longer use

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Speaker 2: metaphors and say we need to talk about the birds

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Speaker 2: and the bees. Good done. We've had that chat needs

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Speaker 2: to be part of an ongoing conversation about what a

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Speaker 2: relationship is, and what intimacy is, and specifically how to

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Speaker 2: be involved in a procreative process. And then once we've

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Speaker 2: had those conversations, we move into different kinds of conversations

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Speaker 2: based on a relationship of trust. We start to talk

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Speaker 2: to our kids in a prepared way. You don't just

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Speaker 2: get in the car and say, oh, we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about pornography today with the kids. We're going to

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Speaker 2: have that conversation about that explicit material today with the

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Speaker 2: kids and then just start chatting. What you do instead

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Speaker 2: is you prepare these are the topics that I'd like

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Speaker 2: to discuss, and this is how I think the conversation

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Speaker 2: should go. Then you've got to take the time. You

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Speaker 2: don't want to do it in a hurry. If you've

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Speaker 2: only got ten minutes between home and school, you don't

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Speaker 2: have that conversation in that ten minutes. You want to

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Speaker 2: be able to slow it down so the kids feel safe,

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Speaker 2: and you really want to focus on asking the kids questions.

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Speaker 2: So let me give you a roadmap for those questions.

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Speaker 2: Very briefly, the first thing that I would recommend asking

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Speaker 2: is what do you know about pornography? And you actually

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Speaker 2: need to use the word, which is why I've used

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Speaker 2: it just now. You've got to ask them what they

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Speaker 2: know about it. Now, hopefully your kids are going to

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Speaker 2: look at you and go, uh, don't know, I've never

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Speaker 2: heard of it, and they're going to be honest with

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Speaker 2: you about that. But there's a good chance that if

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Speaker 2: they're eight or nine, they may have heard the word. Now, again,

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Speaker 2: every family is different and every context is different. I've

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Speaker 2: got a couple of kids who I waited until they

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Speaker 2: were eleven or twelve before I started having those conversations

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Speaker 2: because I was very very confident. The thing is, you

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Speaker 2: never really know, but I was very very confident. Then again,

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Speaker 2: I had another child who I overheard a conversation with

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Speaker 2: some boys when she was just nine, and so we're like, well,

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Speaker 2: we need to have the conversation. Now, what do you

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Speaker 2: know about it? The next question that I would recommend

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Speaker 2: is do any of the kids at school ever talk

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Speaker 2: about it? And what do they say? So what we're

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Speaker 2: doing is we're starting very generally. Now we're coming a

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Speaker 2: little bit closer. The next question might be what do

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Speaker 2: you think would be the best thing to do if

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Speaker 2: somebody tried to show you or have any of your

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Speaker 2: friends been involved in these conversations? Are any of your

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Speaker 2: friends looking at it? And what we're really trying to

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Speaker 2: do is we're trying to work out what do you know?

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Speaker 2: What gaps can I plug? I don't want to give

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Speaker 2: you too much information, but we need to be teaching

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Speaker 2: our kids specifically why this is harmful, why this is dangerous,

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Speaker 2: and the evidence is clear this content is bad for

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Speaker 2: kids specifically because it affects their beliefs about what intimacy

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Speaker 2: looks like, which goes on to affect their behaviors about

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Speaker 2: what intimacy should be once they're old enough to start

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Speaker 2: to engage in those We've got to make sure that

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Speaker 2: we're teaching our kids about healthy intimacy, otherwise they'll have

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Speaker 2: unhealthy intimacy. And there's plenty of evidence that indicates that

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Speaker 2: that leads to problems, you know, potentially lifelong casts a

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Speaker 2: long shadow throughout adulthood.

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Speaker 3: This is probably an intimidating conversation for a lot of

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Speaker 3: us as parents to have, But I think like the

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Speaker 3: reason we wanted to talk about it on the show

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Speaker 3: today is as intimidating, as scary, as hard as skin

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Speaker 3: crawling as it could be, because maybe some of us

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Speaker 3: have grown up in homes where that conversation was even

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Speaker 3: more awkward, and we're just not comfortable and used to it.

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Speaker 3: It's too important a conversation to run away from that fear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, when I talked to her mum

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Speaker 2: who says that she walked into the bedroom, her son's bedroom.

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Speaker 2: He's nine years old. She expected to find him playing Minecraft,

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Speaker 2: and instead she found him googling. You know, Google gives

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Speaker 2: you a lot more information than the dictionaries of our day,

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Speaker 2: and he was googling a word that he'd misspelled because

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Speaker 2: one of the one of the year six kids on

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Speaker 2: the bus told him to google it when he got home.

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Speaker 2: And what he encountered and what she found left her

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Speaker 2: weak at the knees. We've got to have these conversations.

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Speaker 2: If we don't, our kids will be exposed to things

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Speaker 2: that will harm them. There's no question they will harm.

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Speaker 1: Them, and potentially not just harm them.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, that's right, because they will in some cases enact

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Speaker 2: what they've seen on others who are usually less powerful,

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Speaker 2: usually younger, more likely to be significantly harmed. Look, I've

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Speaker 2: written a bunch of articles for the Office of the

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Speaker 2: E Safety Commissioner on this topic if you would to,

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Speaker 2: and I know some people will be uncomfortable even typing

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Speaker 2: this into their search bar, but if you type in

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Speaker 2: my name just Coulson, coul Son, E Safety and Pornography,

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Speaker 2: Google will give you the articles that I've written and

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Speaker 2: they will help you with plenty of guidance.

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Speaker 1: I've just popped those up and they come straight up

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Speaker 1: at the top, so easy to access.

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Speaker 3: We're in the midst of the so we're being a

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Speaker 3: little bit comfortable about some of the words we might say.

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Speaker 3: Are some of the visuals. Someone who was on this

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Speaker 3: topic sharing with us recently highlighted and it's just one comment,

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Speaker 3: but one comment that broke my heart and scared the

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Speaker 3: living daylights out of me as a dad was a

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Speaker 3: thirteen year old boy who asked the question in a

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Speaker 3: context of this being the discussion of growing into relationships

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Speaker 3: with women. His question was do I have to strangle

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Speaker 3: her when we make love? Because he had seen videos

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Speaker 3: and that's what his sense of normal was. Clearly, as

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Speaker 3: a thirteen year old boy, go, something doesn't feel right

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Speaker 3: about that. But the fact that he could even ask

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Speaker 3: the question like it was a thing he needed to.

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Speaker 2: I really like it. So a couple of things on

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Speaker 2: this if when really, you know, getting into the nitty

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Speaker 2: gritty of this, let's be really clear, pornography researchers have

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Speaker 2: discovered and again I'm not a consumer. I'm a consumer

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Speaker 2: of the research, not of the content. I want to

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Speaker 2: be really clear about this. I'm not watching it, so

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm only reporting recent but pornography researchers

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Speaker 2: are telling us that pornography is generally made specifically for men.

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Speaker 2: Now there are varieties that are now being made with

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Speaker 2: a more female, a more feminine, which means that there's

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Speaker 2: more of a narrative and more of a focus on

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Speaker 2: other aspects. But the majority of it's still made for men.

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Speaker 2: There's a desensitization that occurs. The more you watch, the

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Speaker 2: more you need, and the more aggressive or the more

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Speaker 2: violent or the more extreme it needs to be. And

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Speaker 2: so what's going on is that it's become commonplace. It's

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Speaker 2: de rigueur for pornography content to be extreme in its violence,

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Speaker 2: and women are universally the victims of the violence. The

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Speaker 2: unhealthiness of the material is breathtaking. I'm talking about multiple penetrations,

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Speaker 2: multiple orifors. I'm so sorry to be saying this kind

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Speaker 2: of stuff. I know many people will find this far

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Speaker 2: too sensitive to listen to, and I'll stop there. Suffice

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Speaker 2: to say that this is not your run of the

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Speaker 2: mill intimacy that perhaps was on the pages of the

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Speaker 2: stuff in the nineteen eighties that kids used to sneak

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Speaker 2: out of their quote unquote dad's bedroom. Again, I came

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Speaker 2: from a family with this wasn't the case, so I'm

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Speaker 2: reporting what other people say. The challenge, Luke and Susie.

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Speaker 2: The challenge here is that our kids see this stuff,

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Speaker 2: they think it's normal, and they feel like they're supposed

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Speaker 2: to enact it. When we teach our children about intimacy,

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Speaker 2: usually I would suggest around about the age of fourteen

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Speaker 2: or fifteen, we sit down with our kids again and

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Speaker 2: we have a much more in depth conversation about true intimacy,

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Speaker 2: and then we do it again when they're about seventeen

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Speaker 2: or eighteen, and we want to focus on words like

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Speaker 2: gentle and patient and slow and pleasure, because pornography is

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Speaker 2: not about any of those things. Pornography is about performance

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Speaker 2: and exposure. It's about extreme and personal gratification. But anybody

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Speaker 2: who's in a loving, intimate relationship knows that performance is

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Speaker 2: the last thing that you worry about. I know some

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Speaker 2: people are sniggering at that, but what you worry about

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Speaker 2: instead is how can I help my partner feel my love?

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Speaker 2: How can I give them the most positive experience here?

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Speaker 2: And usually it's the man who has to think about that,

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Speaker 2: because men will be pleased most of the time without

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Speaker 2: too much trouble, which means being slow, being gentle. And

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Speaker 2: we've got to teach our kids that because what they

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Speaker 2: see in pornography is the opposite, and if they continue

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Speaker 2: to try and act that, they're going to have miserable

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Speaker 2: intimate lives, which is horrible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Dr Justin Wilson, thank you for talking about We've taken

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Speaker 1: a lot of words away from you to be able

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Speaker 1: to use.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 2: I thought I could say that it was a pleasure,

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Speaker 2: but I'm going to say that it was necessary.

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Speaker 1: Such an important conversation, and we thank you for having

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Speaker 1: it with us today.

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Speaker 2: Glood help.

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Speaker 1: If you enjoy the podcast, please take a moment to

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Speaker 1: the visibility of the podcast and helps more people to

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Speaker 1: find it. And if you're not a subscriber, jump onto

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and subscribe so that you can hear every

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Speaker 1: episode as soon as it is uploaded. For more information

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Speaker 1: on all of Doctor Justin Coulson's books, programs, and podcasts,

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00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,400
Speaker 1: go to Happy Families dot com dot au, or if

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Speaker 1: you'd like to have Doctor Justin Coulson speak at your

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Speaker 1: school or event. Go to Justinculson dot com