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Speaker 1: Today, welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Minimum age legislation

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Speaker 1: for social media is just around the corner now, only

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Speaker 1: a couple of months to go, and this week it's

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Speaker 1: Child Protection Week. There are so many issues that are

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Speaker 1: occurring that cause us concern for the safety and the

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Speaker 1: well being of our children, whether it's happening online, whether

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Speaker 1: it's happening in childcare centers, or whether it's happening in

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Speaker 1: real life, things like bullying and challenges at school. And

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite people to talk to about these

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Speaker 1: kinds of difficulties is doctor Katrina Lines. Katrina is the

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Speaker 1: CEO of ACT for Kids and today we're going to

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Speaker 1: address those issues and more with some brand new data

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Speaker 1: from a survey that Act for Kids have done looking

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Speaker 1: at what kids need as this social media minimum age

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Speaker 1: legislation gets closer, stay with us. Hello, Welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast. Real parenting solutions every day. This is

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Speaker 1: Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast. My name is doctor Justin

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Speaker 1: Coulson and this week it's Child Protection Week. As a result,

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Speaker 1: we wanted to get into some stuff that's going to

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Speaker 1: be helpful for you as you discover and decide for

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Speaker 1: yourself how you can help your children to be safe. Today,

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Speaker 1: my special guest, doctor Katrina Lynes, the chief executive officer

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Speaker 1: of Act for Kids. Katrina joined Act for Kids back

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and six and has been working ever

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Speaker 1: since delivering social services and clinical services at the individual, organizational,

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Speaker 1: and community level to help our kids to be safe.

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Speaker 1: Katrina is a clinical psychologist more than twenty years of

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Speaker 1: experience and a PhD in children's cognitive, social, and emotional

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Speaker 1: development and post grade calls by the way in governance,

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Speaker 1: business and education. Pretty well qualified to have the conversation

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Speaker 1: we're going to have. Katrina, Thanks so much for being

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Speaker 1: on the podcast. Before we talk about this new study

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Speaker 1: that you've done looking at connection in real life for kids,

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Speaker 1: I really want to ask you about a couple of

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Speaker 1: hard things in the news. Over the last several months,

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Speaker 1: we've been hearing about devastating, I I don't know if

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Speaker 1: there's another word for it, devastating, horrific, appalling behavior by

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Speaker 1: adults towards children in childcare centers. We've had names released

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Speaker 1: of men who have committed offenses over the last several years,

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Speaker 1: and most recently we found out about the horrific behavior

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Speaker 1: of a man in Melbourne, but there's also been news

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Speaker 1: that's been kept relatively quiet compared with the men looking

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Speaker 1: at some horrific torture and abuse in childcare centers from

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Speaker 1: a number of women in Sydney. Can you just talk

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Speaker 1: a bit about what's going on? And I guess more

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Speaker 1: to the point, you and I've both been asked about

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Speaker 1: this a lot over the last few months. What are

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Speaker 1: we supposed to do about it? Because I don't think

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Speaker 1: we can legislate around this.

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Speaker 2: No, it's a community problem. We need to work together

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Speaker 2: as a community to protect kids, and so it's not

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Speaker 2: a government responsibility, as you said, justin to legislate against it,

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Speaker 2: because if people want to do the wrong thing, they'll

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Speaker 2: just find a way to do the wrong thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I keep on hearing people say, oh, shouldn't we get

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Speaker 1: men out of childcare? Won't that solve the problem? And

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Speaker 1: I can't think of anything worse. Your response, your reaction.

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Speaker 2: Well, as a psychologist and you know someone who's looked

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Speaker 2: at child development for her whole career, I think that

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Speaker 2: is the silliest thing I ever heard. Because children need

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Speaker 2: male and female role models, so we need to make

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Speaker 2: environments safe for them and fun and nurturing, which is

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Speaker 2: our responsibility as a community, rather than looking to the

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Speaker 2: government to solve the problem for us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, safeguarding is so important, and yet trying to

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Speaker 1: put legislation in just makes more hoops and sort of.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it actually improves the situation. It just

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Speaker 1: makes it more difficult and you're never going to be

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Speaker 1: able to stand top of compliance anyway. What about these

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Speaker 1: childcare works, because in Sydney, these women, why do you

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Speaker 1: think that the news media didn't pick up on the

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Speaker 1: torture and the neglect and the abuse, like the photographs

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Speaker 1: and the filming and the laughter and delight that these

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Speaker 1: women seem to take from hurting these kids.

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Speaker 2: I think it's not as newsworthy potentially as you know,

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Speaker 2: serial child sexual abuse, which is an awful thing to say,

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Speaker 2: but it just hasn't seemed to grab the attention. And

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Speaker 2: we certainly haven't heard any rhetoric about women, you know,

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Speaker 2: leaving childcare as a result of any of those revelations

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Speaker 2: from Sydney or the alleged incidents in Sydney. I think

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Speaker 2: it highlights an issue for workers in child care generally,

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Speaker 2: they're generally poorly paid, struggle to have everybody mandatory trained,

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Speaker 2: and they're not a supported workforce, you know, Staffing ratios

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Speaker 2: are you know, not looked at properly, and so there's

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Speaker 2: too few workers for the number of kids that they're

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Speaker 2: caring for. And so I think that's a bigger problem

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Speaker 2: than whether it's males or females doing the wrong thing.

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Speaker 2: We need to be supporting workforce to be able to

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Speaker 2: know what to do and to be able to care

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Speaker 2: for kids and feel supported themselves.

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Speaker 1: Whenever I give a talk to a childcare organization and

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Speaker 1: I'm doing some staff development, I'm just in love with

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Speaker 1: these people who do such a great job generally speaking,

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Speaker 1: their hearts are big, and they love these kids and

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Speaker 1: do such good work and so often such thankless work.

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Speaker 1: I just think there are a wonderful workforce, and it's

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Speaker 1: such a shame that there a shame. Feels like I'm

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Speaker 1: downplaying it. It's just devastating that there are people who

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Speaker 1: are doing these kinds of things and bringing an entire

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Speaker 1: industry into disrepute when there are so many good people

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Speaker 1: doing such good work. Anyway, that's not the reason that

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Speaker 1: we've really got you here. Although I think, like I said,

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Speaker 1: it's appropriate for Child Protection Week. You've commissioned a study

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Speaker 1: three hundred Australian kids aged ten to sixteen looking at

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Speaker 1: connection in real life and connection online, and that's what

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Speaker 1: i wanted to talk to you about today. I'm always

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Speaker 1: fascinated when data comes through. When you had a look

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Speaker 1: at what these kids were asked and what they were

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Speaker 1: responding with, what did you find curious about what the

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Speaker 1: kids were saying about this Act for Kids' Research.

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Speaker 2: Well, we were interested because we've got the social media

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Speaker 2: ban looming in December, and so we wanted to see

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Speaker 2: how connected kids were online and what they really preferred.

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Speaker 2: We were actually stunned because forty one percent of kids

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Speaker 2: said they would prefer to spend time with their family

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Speaker 2: in person, compared to fifteen percent who said they would

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Speaker 2: prefer to go online. That was their preferred kind of

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Speaker 2: way of connecting with the world. So that's, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's really quite surprising. We thought kids would be wanting

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Speaker 2: to go online, and three quarters of the children told

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Speaker 2: us that they felt most connected to their family when

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Speaker 2: they're talking in person about their day, even though almost

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Speaker 2: half of them spend at least an hour a day

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Speaker 2: talking to someone online.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So three quick responses to this, and I'd love

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Speaker 1: to get your reaction. First off, OECD Research published a

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Speaker 1: couple of months ago plus some data that came out

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Speaker 1: of a quarry UNI with doctor Brad Marshall and Professor

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Speaker 1: Wayne Warburton. Both of them found that in Australia, we're

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Speaker 1: finding that adolescents spending in recreational screen time an average

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Speaker 1: of nine hours per day just staring at their screens.

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Speaker 1: Those numbers are astonishing. So when I hear you say that,

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Speaker 1: it kind of there's like this clash between kids saying, well,

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Speaker 1: here's what I really want, but here's what I'm actually doing.

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Speaker 1: The second thing that it prompts for me is I

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Speaker 1: bet there's a lot of parents who are listening to

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Speaker 1: that data that you've just shared and saying, well, hang on.

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Speaker 1: Whenever I say to my kids, why don't you get

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Speaker 1: off the screen and come and spend some time doing

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Speaker 1: this thing with this, the kids don't get off the screen.

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Speaker 1: They winge and they whine and they mope. They're so

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Speaker 1: compelled to be on their screens. And then the third

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Speaker 1: thing that popped in my head was once the kids

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Speaker 1: do get off the screens, they really do enjoy themselves.

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Speaker 1: And it's very very rare. If you say to the kids,

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Speaker 1: what was the most fun that you had this week,

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Speaker 1: it's very rare that they'll say, oh, when we were

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Speaker 1: all staring at us screens, sitting on the couch in

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Speaker 1: the living room, that was awesome. Like they usually talk

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Speaker 1: about the fact that you get out and you throw

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Speaker 1: a ball around, or you jump on the trampoline, or

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Speaker 1: you cook that thing together in the kitchen. That's the

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Speaker 1: stuff they cling to, the stuff that they want. They

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Speaker 1: really they want the connection. But how do you, I guess,

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Speaker 1: respond to that disconnect where the kids are saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want this in the survey, but in real life,

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Speaker 1: if my parents asked me to get off the screen,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to fight and winge and whine about it.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a point in the middle where you

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Speaker 2: join them where they're at, and so there's you know,

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Speaker 2: their online world for themselves, and then there's the bit

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Speaker 2: in the middle where you join them where they're at,

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Speaker 2: and then there's the offline world whether you do stuff

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Speaker 2: like cook together and have fun. Nearly three quarters of

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Speaker 2: the kids told us that they felt positive about their

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Speaker 2: close adult being in the same room when they were online,

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Speaker 2: and seventeen percent of the young people we surveyed said

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Speaker 2: they actually felt safer, but that we asked them how

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Speaker 2: many like we asked them, you know, how often is

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Speaker 2: it that you do have an adult in the room

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Speaker 2: with you? And only ten percent of them said they do.

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Speaker 2: And so overwhelmingly the kids told us that they wanted

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Speaker 2: adults to join them in their online world and play

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Speaker 2: games with them or do something with them so that

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Speaker 2: they can connect. And so that's that middle space of

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Speaker 2: adults joining kids in their world that I think we're missing.

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Speaker 1: Interesting that you say that, because I'm not big on

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Speaker 1: joining my kids in the online world. I don't like

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Speaker 1: social media. I stay away from as much as possible.

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Speaker 1: I don't game. But my son in law has sort

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Speaker 1: of taken and up that role with my youngest kids,

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Speaker 1: who really do like being online, and they look forward

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Speaker 1: to going over and hanging out with their big sister

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Speaker 1: and their brother in law, because I mean, he's an adult,

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Speaker 1: he's in his mid twenties. My youngest is only eleven,

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Speaker 1: and they get to play all of those games and

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Speaker 1: be in that online world and they have so much fun.

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Speaker 1: I love watching it from a distance. It still isn't

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Speaker 1: enough to tempt me into it, and I'm finding other

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Speaker 1: ways to connect with my kids in real life. To

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Speaker 1: steal a phrase from you, but I think that that

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Speaker 1: idea that you've suggested is really valid. It also illustrates

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Speaker 1: to me that, at least the way that I'm doing it,

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Speaker 1: it highlights that when the kids have got good adults

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Speaker 1: in their lives, it doesn't really matter whether it's you

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Speaker 1: or another good, safe adult that they can trust and

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Speaker 1: rely on. They're getting those socialization needs met and they're

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Speaker 1: having that third space or that meeting in the middle

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Speaker 1: occur which satisfies their needs and helps them to feel

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Speaker 1: like their online experiences are able to be engaged with

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Speaker 1: in healthy ways. I does that make sense? Am I

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Speaker 1: getting that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, the clear messages

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Speaker 2: that we heard from kids was that they were they

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Speaker 2: wanted to connect with their families. But there is a

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Speaker 2: disconnect I think in that generation gap where you know,

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Speaker 2: the children's world is an online social world now and

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Speaker 2: that a lot of adults don't understand it. Although I

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Speaker 2: think you know the example of your son in law

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Speaker 2: is that younger adults and younger parents do understand it.

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Speaker 2: Because that's kind of their world as well, and so

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Speaker 2: they want adults, they're close adults to like the things

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Speaker 2: that they're doing and be interested in the things they're doing.

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Speaker 2: And that's the same as whether they're playing sports or

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Speaker 2: they're playing Fortnite, you know, So it's it's the same

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Speaker 2: kind of emotion that's driving kids wanting the connection.

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Speaker 1: Well, big changes are coming after the break, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to ask doctor Katrina Lines what message we need for

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Speaker 1: families to wrap their head around with the minimum age

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Speaker 1: legislation coming into effect later this year. And we're also

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Speaker 1: going to talk about finding time to connect in real

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Speaker 1: life since that's what the kids really want. Doctor Extrina Lines,

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Speaker 1: the CEO of ACT for Kids. Your recent survey let's

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Speaker 1: connect in real life IRL. Pretty soon there's going to

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Speaker 1: be legislation that is designed to prevent children under the

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Speaker 1: age of sixteen from being on social media. I'd love

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Speaker 1: to get your take. I've been and interviewed about this endlessly.

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Speaker 1: What's your take though on how parents and carers can

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Speaker 1: guide their children as this transition occurs.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think, you know, following from what I was

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Speaker 2: saying before, justin adults don't necessarily give the social world

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Speaker 2: of children online, the weight that you know it has

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Speaker 2: for them, and so we think that switching off might

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Speaker 2: be difficult for them. But I think that young people

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Speaker 2: may be very fearful about it and worried and anxious

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Speaker 2: about being cut off from their friends and their network

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Speaker 2: when the band comes into effect, and that we really

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Speaker 2: need to be acknowledging that and trying to understand that

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Speaker 2: and support them through it. And so I think opening

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Speaker 2: up conversations now, not leaving it till December when the

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Speaker 2: band is about to come into place, and really listening

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Speaker 2: to what their worries are and showing them that you

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Speaker 2: want to understand and you want to help, asking them

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Speaker 2: what they're most worried about and what they think might help,

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Speaker 2: and getting them to identify some ideas. I also think

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Speaker 2: that some young people are you know, their whole social

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Speaker 2: world is online, and that they could have negative mental

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Speaker 2: health impacts, you know, and so parents and cares need

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Speaker 2: to watch for those, so things like changes in eating

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Speaker 2: and sleeping and mood as a result of the band

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Speaker 2: coming into place. So you know, open up those conversations,

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Speaker 2: show you a little listening, don't belittle the impact on them,

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Speaker 2: show them you want to understand and you want to help.

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Speaker 1: It's curious to me when I think about what life

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Speaker 1: was like before social media. Most of us had cordless

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Speaker 1: phones that were for the entire family, and kids would

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Speaker 1: spend a lot of time on that phone talking with

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Speaker 1: their friends. I think that private schooling means that we've

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Speaker 1: got more people from a greater variety of places coming

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Speaker 1: together for a school, which means that there's less opportunity

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Speaker 1: for kids to pop out into the street and hang

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Speaker 1: out with the local neighbors because they don't know them

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Speaker 1: in the same way that they did. Like once upon

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Speaker 1: a time, everyone went to the neighborhood school. That's not

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Speaker 1: the case so much anymore, not having social media. As

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Speaker 1: much as I'm broadly in favor of this legislation and

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Speaker 1: think that it's a good thing for our younger population

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Speaker 1: who are vulnerable and unfortunately are being harmed way too

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Speaker 1: much by what goes on in social media, there are

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Speaker 1: some very real challenges that we're going to be confronted

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Speaker 1: with because of the way the world has shifted in

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Speaker 1: the last fifteen to twenty years. I love your advice

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Speaker 1: around that. Thank you for sharing that. One last question

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Speaker 1: before I let you go. Your survey is called Let's

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Speaker 1: Connect Irl. Let's Connect in real life. Kids are demonstrating

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Speaker 1: a really strong desire for this in spite of the

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Speaker 1: fact that the online world is so endemic, it's so

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Speaker 1: intertwined with their lives. When you think about connection and

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Speaker 1: you think about how busy parents and caregivers are, what

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Speaker 1: would your top one or two tips be for parents

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Speaker 1: who really just want to find the time to connect

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Speaker 1: in real life with their kids but are struggling because

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Speaker 1: either the kids are a bit oppositional or life is

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Speaker 1: really busy.

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Speaker 2: Look, it can be really, really hard. I think if

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Speaker 2: you just focus on the day to day things you

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Speaker 2: do and trying to be present and listening to your

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Speaker 2: kids while you're doing it in the car driving home

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Speaker 2: or when you're cooking dinner. I think you were talking

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Speaker 2: before about cooking something together and making things fun that

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Speaker 2: are just day to day activities, but actually do them

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Speaker 2: with your kids no one's on their phone. And then

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Speaker 2: you know, planning family fun time that's quality time. But

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Speaker 2: it doesn't need to be. You know, it can be

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Speaker 2: once a week that you're planning and looking forward to

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Speaker 2: doing something together, but you know, little kids in particular

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Speaker 2: just want to come and help you cook dinner. And

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Speaker 2: I know it can be a pain when you you know,

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Speaker 2: everyone's just got home and you got lunch boxes everywhere,

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Speaker 2: and you you know, you're trying to get kids to

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Speaker 2: do stuff. But just taking a deep breath and letting

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Speaker 2: them hang out with you while you're doing those things

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Speaker 2: means that you get the things done, but you're actually

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Speaker 2: connecting with your kids as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, kids still love to ime.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely. No. Look, my kids are grown up now,

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Speaker 2: but when they were young, I'd have three of them

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Speaker 2: in the afternoon, all clamoring just to have this conversation,

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Speaker 2: and one my oldest daughter, said, right, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: get the timer out. So we had this kitchen timer

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Speaker 2: and they would time each other so they had they

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Speaker 2: had their own allotted time for me to listen to them.

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Speaker 2: And you know, my head was spinning because I had

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Speaker 2: to make dinner and put the washing on and blah

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Speaker 2: blah blah. But it was actually a kid generated, really

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Speaker 2: good strategy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It's so funny though, because when it's going on,

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Speaker 1: you're kind of going, oh, my goodness, I don't have

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Speaker 1: headspace for this. Would you all just stop making noise?

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Speaker 1: So I can do the important stuff and cook the

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Speaker 1: meal and you're like, oh, hang on, no, this is

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Speaker 1: the important stuff, the milk and wait. Doctor Katrina Lynes,

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Speaker 1: the CEO of ACT Kids, always enjoy our chats. Thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. Justin.

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Speaker 1: The Have Your Family's podcast is produced by Justin Roulant

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Speaker 1: from Bridge Media. We have social admin and research support

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Speaker 1: from Mim Hammonds. If you'd like any more details about

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Speaker 1: the ACT for Kids Let's Connect irl study, we will

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Speaker 1: link to that in the show notes and for more

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Speaker 1: information and resources. Visit Happy families dot com dot au

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Speaker 1: to make your family happier