1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: The Will and Woody podcast that fight sized. 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 2: Ash, let's talk about the spicy meat ball that is 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 2: these this is this is a spicy o. 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 3: People gives a lot of people have a lot of opinions, 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 3: which is weird because imagine if you were trans and 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 3: the rest of the country in the world is having 7 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 3: this huge discussion about what you have the right to do. 8 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 3: So true, we will never really understand that it's yeah, 9 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 3: spicy indeed. 10 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 4: One hundred percent. 11 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 2: So there's some new rules that have come out around 12 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 2: transgender women in sport. 13 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 4: FENA have made some new ruling. 14 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 2: Plus today, maybe it was late yesterday International Rugby League 15 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: banned transgender women as it looks to create an inclusive 16 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 2: policy after the FENA ruling. 17 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 4: Look, if you've missed any of it, have listened to this. 18 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 5: Leah Thomas, a US swimmer, became the first openly transgender 19 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 5: athlete to win the top US title. Now, at a 20 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 5: meeting that they've held on the sidelines of the World 21 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 5: Championships in Hungary, seventy one percent of delegates have voted 22 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 5: to bear a transgender athletes from competing in elite women's 23 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 5: swimming events. 24 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 2: Now right now on the phone, Ash, I mean you 25 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: and me, as you sort of highlighted before. We're in 26 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: no position to talk or comment on this, but someone 27 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: who is is one of Australia's first ever public transgender 28 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 2: athletes and the first to be granted a place in 29 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 2: open women's sport. Her name is Ricky Coglan and she 30 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: joins us on the phone right now. 31 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 4: Hello Ricky, Yeah, Hi guys, how are. 32 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: You going leading our best lives? Babe? 33 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 3: Take us back to the early nineties when this happened 34 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 3: for you, because it was a very, very different time 35 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 3: and you it wasn't your decision to really out yourself. 36 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 3: You were outed as an athlete as a woman. Tell 37 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 3: us about how that kind of felt and how that 38 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: went down. 39 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 6: Well, I had some idea that it was coming, but 40 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 6: the way it dropped was pretty incredible. I was at 41 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,639 Speaker 6: Sydney Athletics Field preparing for our Saturday afternoon eight hundred 42 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,480 Speaker 6: meter ray. So as we were back there and suddenly 43 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 6: Channel seven News turned up and a woman turned up 44 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 6: with what she said was a petition asking for me 45 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 6: to be banned from the sport. And so I finished 46 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 6: up headlining on Channel seven News that night and the 47 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 6: next day. Of course, there were photographers everywhere, and the 48 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 6: next day I was plastered all over the front of 49 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 6: newspapers in Australia. Wow, so I am just you can 50 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 6: imagine you're freaking out and this is happening and yea. 51 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 6: I joined my squad in Centennial Park in Sydney for 52 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,239 Speaker 6: our Sunday morning run and afterwards we all headed down 53 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 6: the Bondai for our brunch as we would do sometimes. 54 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 6: And so I'm walking up Campbell Parade and there's a 55 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 6: guy in front of a newsagent. He's holding a newspaper 56 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 6: and he looks at me and he looks at the 57 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 6: paper and he says, this is you, and I, yeah, 58 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 6: it is. And he said wait here, and he came 59 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 6: back with a pen and said sign it. Yeah, celebrity instantly. 60 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 6: So at first I'm signing, and then it was like, 61 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 6: you know, what's your name? 62 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: Okay, I get it, Ricky, I totally get it. But 63 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: can I so, Ricky, you were allowed to keep competing though. 64 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 2: That's right, isn't it. 65 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 6: Yeah? Well what happened was when I met with Athletics 66 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 6: in New South Wales, they the position of athletics Australia 67 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 6: and said that athletics is a sport for everyone, and 68 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 6: there was a place for you in this sport. What 69 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 6: we need to work out ongoing though, is how are 70 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 6: we going to manage this and if we need to 71 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 6: shape rules specifically around you. And so they did test 72 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 6: on me for eighteen months Australian Institute of Sport. Well, 73 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 6: they got me on treadmills and they wanted to test 74 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 6: you know, my heart stroke volume and lung capacity and 75 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 6: what they call you the two max or your capacity 76 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 6: to absorb and utilize oxygen. 77 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: And Ricky, sorry, was that to ensure that you didn't 78 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: have what they were probably deeming an unfair advantage to 79 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 2: be competing with you? 80 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 3: Is that right? 81 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 6: Because what they wanted to know is did I carry 82 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 6: from I transitioned in nineteen eighty so this is nineteen 83 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 6: ninety one. So what they wanted to know is does 84 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 6: this person carry any advantages from her life prior to 85 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 6: transitioning that women don't have access to? And this is 86 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 6: the very crux of the issue. 87 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: Well, that links into what Fiena have said, which is 88 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 2: that if you are to be allowed to compete as transgender, 89 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: you have to have come out before you have to 90 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 2: have transitioned before the age of twelve, which I just 91 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 2: don't know who would be transitioning before twelve, like such 92 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 2: a big decision to make. 93 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 4: Ricky, this is fascinating stuff. We've got to go to 94 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 4: a psalm. 95 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: I want to talk to you more just about you know, 96 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: these new rules around transcend to women and sporting, your 97 00:04:58,279 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: views on in your opinions on it? 98 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, sure on the phone right now. We've got Ricky Coglan. 99 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,239 Speaker 2: And Ricky is one of Australia's first public transgender athletes 100 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 2: and the first to be granted a place. 101 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 4: In open women's sport. 102 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: That was all the way back in the nineties. And Ricky, 103 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 2: we're really keen to hear your thoughts on fiena's new 104 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: rules around transgender women in sport. If people haven't heard, 105 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: they're saying that transit women are eligible to compete in 106 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 2: women's competitions, but only if they have transitions before the 107 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: age of twelve. 108 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 4: Ricky, what are your thoughts? 109 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 6: Well, my thoughts are that this is a very deep 110 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 6: area in terms of science and ethics, and I feel 111 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 6: that SINA were a little lazy in their approach to 112 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 6: these things. Okay, that there is there are positions we 113 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 6: can take which do satisfy the needs for not what 114 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 6: we call fair competition, because fair competition looks like a 115 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 6: Neil All drawer at the World Cup or a dead 116 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 6: heat in one hundred meters race. Sure, when we're talking 117 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 6: about fairness, I think what we really mean is meaning 118 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 6: for competition. You know, we can have a meaningful competition 119 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 6: and include transgender athletes. But I think the approach that 120 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 6: Athletics Australia took with me back in nineteen ninety one 121 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 6: is a really great way to go because they basically 122 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 6: tested me for eighteen months and they evaluated the outcome 123 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,679 Speaker 6: of those tests with the athletic norms for females and said, well, Ricky, 124 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 6: you fit that set of norms, so we are happy 125 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 6: for you to continue participating in women's sport. 126 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: Do you think it's different for some sports, Ricky? Because 127 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 3: I know Leah Thomas is really made headlines around the 128 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 3: world transitioning and then really wiping the floor with her 129 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 3: fellow swimmers. 130 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: Are they differences from sport to sport? Do you think? 131 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 6: Look? There would be, of course, because different talents and 132 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 6: skills and opportunity in one's life story, as well as 133 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 6: physical and mental capacities more play a role in these things. 134 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 6: But in swimming, I think we have to know that 135 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 6: Thomas might have white the floor, but the best swimmers 136 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:10,119 Speaker 6: didn't come to that event apparently restrictions. The last year's 137 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 6: winner would have won her race by fifty or more seconds. 138 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 6: So it was really just a little bit of a Bradbury. 139 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 6: And I think too that when we start to talk 140 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 6: about separate categories for transgender women, which is what seen 141 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 6: or are talking about, it's starting to look a little 142 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 6: bit like the white folks bubbler and the colored folks 143 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 6: bubbler and what that looks like. And there's the shining 144 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 6: competition for the non transgender women here, and here's this 145 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 6: little side show for the transgender women who will put 146 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 6: them over there, so you're included, but over there. 147 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 2: And I know if it words in your mouth, Ricky, 148 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: but I imagine as someone who is transgender, to be treated 149 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: separately like that is pretty much the opposite of what 150 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: you're fighting for. 151 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 6: Well, it's really taking us down a really well, a 152 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 6: slippery slope, if we can use that term. So yeah, 153 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 6: I think that so it just comes up as lazy 154 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 6: at so many levels. And I think that if we 155 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 6: aspire to making sport all that can be, which is 156 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 6: a leader in our society and which guides our society 157 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 6: and also reflects our society and our culture. That sport 158 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 6: can do better than that, and we are seeing sport 159 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 6: doing well in this space. In Australia there are more 160 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 6: than twenty national sporting organizations which have come up with 161 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 6: domestic policies that include transgender people and in this way 162 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 6: they're leading. And this is like back in nineteen ninety 163 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 6: one when I got out it I've discovered in Australia 164 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 6: that was so welcoming and who even celebrated me. I 165 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 6: was signing autographs, going to schools, talking to is, shaking 166 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 6: hands in the street, the whole lot. And this was 167 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 6: because of the leadership I think of Athletics Australia and 168 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 6: Athletics New South Wales who by not saying we will 169 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 6: start from a place of exclusion, but we will start 170 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 6: from a place of inclusion. And so we shaped a 171 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 6: lot of the conversation. And ultimately this conversation is one 172 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 6: of what kind of world do we want to live in? 173 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 6: Do you want the one dimensional uniformity of the human 174 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 6: species or the human race, or do we want to 175 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:41,599 Speaker 6: have an open, diverse the humanity that we can celebrate. 176 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: And I think most Australians do want that. 177 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 3: Australia, right, we do want to be in It just 178 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 3: means we have to have some tough conversations. 179 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: We have to sit in the awkwardness of it. 180 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 3: We have to admit that we don't know what the 181 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 3: right way forward is, but listen to people right and 182 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 3: really have. 183 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: The guts to make some tough calls. 184 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 3: So I hope we get there, Riki, because that's kind 185 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 3: of Australia I want. 186 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us is one as well. Mate. 187 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 6: Well, I think we do. You know, we lead the 188 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 6: world in this and we also lead the world in 189 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 6: supporting transgender children. So I think that Australia should feel 190 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 6: great about our position in these things. Yeah, I just 191 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 6: know I collapsed to Australia. I just think we do 192 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 6: so well in this space. 193 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 2: I clapped for you, Ricky Coglan, You're very welcome and 194 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: Ricky sorry, you were briefly commenting on your level of 195 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 2: fame where you were signing photos on newspapers, et cetera. 196 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 4: Were you ever papped? No, haven't. You don't know what 197 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 4: getting papped is? 198 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 6: Well before all of this really came out leading to 199 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 6: the leading up to this whole thing. I got out 200 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 6: of my car at work. I was managing a gym 201 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 6: at the time. I got out of the car, and 202 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 6: I can hear a motor drive going and of course, 203 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 6: so this is in the early nineties. Yeah, and I 204 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 6: look across the road and there's a long lens sticking 205 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 6: out of the car. 206 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 3: Now you're done with that, why not check out more 207 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,239 Speaker 3: from Willen Woody on The Full Show podcast.