WEBVTT - BONUS: Jon Ronson 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:03.920 Hey there, everybody, welcome to not Another crime podcast. I'm 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:05.720 Georgia Love, I'm Stammy Peterson. 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:06.640 I am a journalist. 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:10.720 I am not, but today we are joined by a journalist, 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:13.920 in fact, my hero today. And I've always had a 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:17.279 very parasocial relationship with this person and we tried to 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:21.239 do a few podcasts while he was finishing his book, 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:24.520 and instead of doing the interview, I got two wonderful 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.320 tours of his house. So I feel like I've become 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.080 the stalker. It is the great John Ronson. 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:34.720 Hi. Hey, hey, both of you. Yeah, I apologize this. 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:37.120 It was very like So what happened was we we 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:39.600 kind of raged to do this when I was in 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:43.159 the middle of bit in my book, and when the 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.040 zoom hour approached, I came on and said to you, look, 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:50.040 I just can't do this. I'm so down the rabbit 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:54.640 hole focusing so hard. So I apologize and I'm. 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:56.800 Not You still turned up, which is the main thing. 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.520 Most people wouldn't turn up, but you still turned up 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:00.600 to say I can't do it. 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:03.600 But that is like my wife always gets really annoyed 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:05.839 with me because when I go to parties, like quite often, 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:07.640 right as I turned up at the party, I say, 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:09.360 we can't stay long. 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:14.480 Managing expectations. That's called I think that's great. 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:16.240 And it's not a lie like I'm going through a 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.760 tunnel or anything. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:21.360 For me, it's just like a tell of I don't 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:25.119 want to be here at all. Son says, it's very rude, 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.440 and what you should do is be incredibly friendly to 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:32.279 everybody and then leave very quickly. And you think so great. 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:35.959 It's the old rule of if you go to a party, 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:37.720 you just need to be there for one moment that 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:39.920 everyone's going to be talking about, and as soon as 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.000 that moment has happened, you can get the hell out 0:01:42.040 --> 0:01:43.800 of there because people will remember you were there for. 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:49.000 That, right, Yes, exactly. So anyway, I'm glad that we're 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.360 doing it now. I was so because I've written a 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.560 true crime book called The Castle. I've literally I've just 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.520 finished it a cut, but I can't talk about it tonight. 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:06.840 I could talk about all because it's like a yeah, 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:10.160 but just that I'm very much would I'd like to 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:12.160 come back when the book's out so we could talk 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:13.639 about it. Then, well, hang on. 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:15.600 We haven't. We haven't started yet. You might hate it 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:17.440 by the time we get to the ends, like we've 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:19.760 got it now on recording, you're saying you want to come. 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:21.600 Back, so admitted. 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:26.760 Well, luckily, I've got lots of other true crime things 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:27.400 to talk about. 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:29.639 John, What is your because I mean, you know, you 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:33.400 do write nonfiction, and and you've written so many different 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.280 books and they've all covered so many different areas. So 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:42.160 you've been publicly shamed the Psychopath test. I absolutely loved 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.160 your podcast series that you did the Last Days of August. 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:50.040 Uh for you personally, how how interested are you in 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:52.880 true crime and is it something that you're drawn towards 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:54.920 or is it just a human interest story that gets 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:55.359 you first? 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:59.359 I guess the stories I'm interested always mystery stories, like 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:03.240 I want to try and understand something about the world 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.240 that I don't understand, So I guess inevitably, you know, 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.440 sometimes that's about human behavior. Why are people behaving in this? 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.799 You know? Sometimes it's real mysteries, and I guess that 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:19.640 crosses over into true crimes. So I guess. And I remember, 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:21.800 like as a kid, one of my favorite books was 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:24.079 A Bit Not in the Garden of Good and Evil 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.160 and in Cold Blood and the Execution of Songs. So 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.480 I was a huge fan of that, those kind of 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:37.080 classic narrative nonfiction true crime books. So yeah, so I 0:03:37.120 --> 0:03:40.040 guess there's just that crossover in terms of mystery solving. 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.160 I really love that you said that. I've always said 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:45.480 my favorite book of all time is In Cold Blood 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.280 and I first read that as a it was probably 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:51.400 about fourteen, and people you just said as a kid, 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:53.560 I loved In cold Blood. And people always say to me, 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:55.880 what's wrong with your brain? Why were you reading that 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:58.080 at that age and why was it your favorite? But 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:00.320 I think I found a kindred spirit heredly. 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.840 I mean for me. I guess when I really think 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.080 about why I like In Cold Blood, it's more to 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:10.960 do with maybe Truman Capoti than it is with the murderers. Yeah, 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.360 because he's such a great you know, he brings you 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:17.080 into that world so beautifully and he's so curious that 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.120 he wants to solve this mystery too. And I the 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:22.200 same with John Batt had been in the good Garden 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.680 of Good and Evil. So these were nonfiction writers who 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:28.000 wanted to solve mysteries. I wanted to like go to 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:31.880 dark places, I guess, and understand them. And that really 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:33.680 inspired me, and I guess that is what I have 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:36.280 done all of these years myself. 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:39.320 You've always had a part where you you're kind of 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:41.680 always a part of the story, kind of like you 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:43.800 know in Cold Blood as well. Did that kind of 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.560 inspire you as a as a as a way of writing. 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.320 Yeah, very much so, those books and Hunters S. Thompson 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:57.280 and PG O'Rourke, and and then when documentaries, let Nick 0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:01.000 Broomfield documentaries came out, a similar thing but in documentary form. 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.000 Uh yeah, I wonder why. I just always thought there 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:07.719 was something really heroic about about, you know, people like 0:05:07.720 --> 0:05:12.200 contrastops and going into these crazy worlds and writing about them. 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:16.760 And there weren't novelists I never identified to us, you know, 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.680 aspired to be a novelist. It was always about the 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.320 real world, about people going into real life places and 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:28.280 like fuck everything up or or or solve mysteries or 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.159 but just be part of it. So there was that 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.840 the kind of heroism of it. But also I think 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:38.039 there was the honesty of it. Like I learned from D. A. 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:41.919 Pennet Baker and all of those early documentary makers that 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:45.760 the journalist is part of the story, Like everything changes 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.800 when the journalist comes into the room. So so you 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:51.640 have to admit that by making yourself part of the story. 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.239 I love that as well, because it's kind of taught. 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.400 So I'm a journalist by trade, but very much doing 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.599 general news, the daily news. So in that style of journalism, 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:03.679 it's very much that you shouldn't be part of the story. 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.080 You know, You've got to tell the facts from an 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.240 unbiased position. But I think that's kind of why I 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.600 love getting into those kind of like your books and 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.320 In Cold Blood and those kind of John Saffran. It's 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:20.320 that desire of you know, I got into journalism because 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.120 I'm obsessed with the stories and I want to tell 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:24.080 stories and the same kind of thing as you learn 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:26.680 about the human mind, So to be able to kind 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:28.920 of delve in and feel like, oh, imagine being part 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.080 of the story, but not in a way that you've 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.440 been publicly shamed, which is bringing in another book of yours. 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.520 Yeah, absolutely, And yeah what you said about you know, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.520 telling the facts in an unbiased way, like I agree, 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:43.800 I think you need to do. You know, I love 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:45.800 to put myself in a bit of the story, but 0:06:45.920 --> 0:06:48.640 I want to I want the story to be unbiased, 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:50.400 and I think that's sort of the reason for putting 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.240 yourself in a bit of the story, because a journalist 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:56.520 does skew things when they enter the room, and a 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.279 journalist does bring along their own bias, and so the 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:02.160 most honest thing to do was to make that part 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.120 of the story. An admitute. It's like showing your workings 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:05.560 in a way. 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.960 It is, you know, very not true crime, in a 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:11.560 very different way, but sort of related. So I'm doing 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:14.560 I do radio news at the moment. And for your 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:18.080 information background, nine years ago, I was on the Australian 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:24.360 version of The Bachelorette. And yesterday, yesterday in my radio job, 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.560 I was reading an entertainment story about Jessica Simpson denying 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:30.720 rumors that she was going to be the next Bachelorette 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.440 because she said she doesn't need help finding a partner 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:35.360 and she's got plenty of options. And as I was 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.440 reading the story, I went, oh, I'm good for her, 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.920 and I was like, that's me injecting myself into the story. 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:45.000 And John, you were talking before about Nick Broomfield as well. 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:50.760 He went in and interviewed famously Eileen Wernos. Did that 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.040 scare you kind of a little bit in terms of 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.640 like going into this world or was that more like 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:58.640 have you been terrified of some of the people that 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:02.320 you've interviewed, or how do you kind of approach that 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.000 in a way of talking to people like then, like 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:06.880 you know, like how do you do that? 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:13.560 Yeah, it's funny. It's I get like anticipatory anxiety as 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:17.920 I'm driving towards somewhere. But really I think the curiosity 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.120 takes over so much in the psychopath test. I go 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:24.640 to Broadmore, which used to be called the broad More 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.480 Asylum for the criminally insane, so you know the kind 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:28.880 of place that it is, and people are like, oh 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.200 my god, you must have been so scared, but obviously 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:37.320 you're way more curious. I'd also just so delighted to 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.000 be somewhere where most people don't get to go that 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:42.800 that those things overwhelm any any fear that you have. 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:45.920 In fact, I remember I was sitting at BroadWare one 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.360 time and I said the nurse, I said, God, I 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:53.960 can't pinch me. I can't believe of it Broadmore. I'm nurse. 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:56.679 What we've got spared there? If you like. 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:03.120 You're starting to assure you like that. I'm having such 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:04.959 a fan go a moment because I listened to the 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.000 psychopath test as an audiobook, and just having you there 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.480 in front of us saying Broadmore in your beautiful accident. 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:11.520 I was like, oh my god, it's real. 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:16.480 Like I got to say, like when often you don't 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:18.520 know if the story is gonna hit or not, you 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.319 know a story is good. But I remember I was 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.880 sitting outside Broadway. I didn't put this in the book. 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:26.400 I was sitting outside Broadball with Brian, the scientologist who 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:29.640 was the guy who got me into Broadmare because scientologists 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:35.440 are very good at circumventing bureaucracy. And in the curve afterwards, 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:37.640 he said to me, like, after we'd met Tony, and 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:41.640 Tony was a guy who took very quickly spell it out. This. 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:45.040 Tony's the guy who faked madness to escape a prison sentence. 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:48.800 But he faked madness too well, and he didn't end 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.880 up in some cushy hospital. He ended up in Broadmore 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:57.480 where nobody would Yeah, totally so. And the scientologists like 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:01.760 were had taken Tony on told me about him and 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:05.280 they did the car after beating Tony. I always remember 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:07.000 Bride said to me like, you know, I just want 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:09.480 to say John, like, thank you so much for taking 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.240 the story. And I said, like, are you kidding me? 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.320 Like this is this is going to be with me 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.960 for the next thirty years. I knew, I knew in 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:22.679 the moment what a big story in terms of just 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:27.760 like you know, people be curious about it. Yeah, like 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.360 I knew that, I knew it was going to get good. 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.000 It did. Thank you, Thank you for giving it to us. 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:37.880 Thank you to Tony and Brian from our parasocially thanking 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:39.720 them for you for allowing you to do that. 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.360 How how often, John, do you like when you're going 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:43.880 to start a new project like the book that we 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.240 can't talk about but we will at some point, But 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:48.480 when you go and start a new piece, if you're 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:53.360 an article or whatever you're doing, do you I mean, 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:55.960 I know that we're spoken about Reddit and you and 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.720 I have in the past gone on very deep guards 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:03.480 into Reddit sadly, uh And for you personally, do you 0:11:03.559 --> 0:11:06.320 sometimes imagine this is true? But do you go down 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:09.240 a lot of different rabbit holes and get to a 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:12.880 story and then realize it's not something or is your 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.400 intuition over the over the last few years, I imagine would 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:18.480 get a lot better. Do you sometimes go down a 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:20.960 path and start interviewing people and then realize there's no 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:21.680 story in it. 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:26.560 Oh yeah. Often, often the times it really works, it's 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.760 like it's like you know, lightning striking. It's it's just 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:33.520 so lucky. There's so many dad aheads, there's so many 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.680 bleak days when you're looking for I mad this documentary 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:42.440 study Kubrick's box as, and I said to Christian Kubrick's wife, like, 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.280 you know, in those ever length of the gaps between movies, 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:48.200 what was he looking for? And she said, that magical 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:52.000 moment of falling in love with the story, And that's 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:53.440 what you're looking for. And you just don't know what 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.719 it's going to be until you know, until you find it, 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:01.000 it jumps out at you. With the psychopath test, for instance, 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.640 I just this psychologist happened to mention to me that 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:07.960 you were much more likely to find psychopaths at the 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.640 top of the tree than at the bottom. And this 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:12.719 was a thought that you know, no, that's that's kind 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.600 of been consciousness now, but it really wasn't at the time. 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:20.800 And I was thinking about this, and I suddenly thought, Okay, 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:22.920 I should learn how to spot psychopaths. I should go 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.400 on a psychopaths spotting course. And then journey into the 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:30.040 corridors of power and try and spot psychopaths, and like, 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.520 I have no idea what's going to happen, but whatever 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:36.200 it is, it's got to be good. And so that's 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:38.200 like one of those moments, and a similar thing actually 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.800 with the new book The Castle. This is the one 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.120 thing I can say actually because it's out there. So 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.640 the way that crashed into my life was I was 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:53.080 asleep and my son, while I'm asleep, is texting me 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:57.440 the series of texts and I see the last text first, 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.120 and the last text is something like it's okay. We 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:02.959 managed to get out. It was totally fucked, but we're 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:08.720 okay now. Yeah. So then I read all the other 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:11.960 texts that had preceded it, and he and some friends 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:15.960 had been invited to a party at a stranger's house 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:21.719 that they'd met online in the forests of New England. 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.080 This is a very well you'll see. So when they 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:32.640 get there, the stranger's house was a massive, newly built 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:39.800 castle with way too many turrets, like really odd, huge castle, 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:44.080 and they went in and there was no party. They'd 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.160 been invited there for other reasons. 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.160 Oh my god, I'm hooked, all right, give me the 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:53.840 book straight into my veins immediately, right. 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:56.600 And then when I found this story, when he told 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.679 me the story, I went to the castle and that's 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:01.000 how the book begins. 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:02.120 That's amazing. 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.160 Hey, John, you're pretty good at a tease. You should 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:06.720 consider doing writing or something for a living. That was 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:07.240 really good. 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.920 I've got to say, I'm pretty cliffhanger shameless like that's 0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:14.760 I was talking to my wife about this this morning. 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:16.680 I say, oh my god, you know, I really I 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:18.160 really go for the cliffhangers. 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.320 I mean they go for you. 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:24.200 Can you tell us a little bit about the last 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.400 days of August as well? I think it was such 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:30.160 a podcast that really got me hooked, you know, because 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:33.080 of your wonderful cliffhangers. But you know you did, you 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:37.080 did start it and went into this world to find 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.000 out about someone who sadly took their own life. 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:42.840 Yeah, and I see this kind of This is like 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:48.120 a true crime cautionary tale. Actually, because of all the 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.720 stories I've done, I'm glad I did this story. And 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.360 I'm too hard in myself, like the way I'm going 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.320 to tell this story, I think I'm too hurd to 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:59.400 myself and almost everyone who listens to the Las Day 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:02.640 of August really likes it and thinks it's responsibly done 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.760 and so on. But I focus a lot on the 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.480 kind of ethical flaws and the problems and the yeah, 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.960 things that I organized over. So I just made this 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:18.080 documentary called The Butterfly Effect for Audible, which is this 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:24.840 really sweet, upbeat documentary about the porn industry trying to 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.120 adapt in the wake of all of these tech utopians 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:29.320 coming in and taking over. 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:31.320 It was kind of porn Hub, wasn't it. And the 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:36.120 people that, yeah, that took over and the HS tapes 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.120 weren't a thing anymore, and it would just completely change 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:40.920 the industry, which which happened very quickly. 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:45.280 Yeah, porn just like decimated the industry, And so I 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:47.880 went to the poor world to see like how they 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:50.240 were coping in that. 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:54.040 That is a good life hack. Make no no, babe, Honestly, 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.000 it's for a documentary. 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:05.640 Yeah. Now my wife is very like permissive when it 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:12.840 comes back. Yeah. So ah, So that was like a 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.880 really sweet night should upbeat documentary. And then about a 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:19.120 couple of months after it came out, this porn style 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:25.120 called August Dain's Mercedes Kubowski took her life and I 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.800 can't remember how it happened, but I ended up talking 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:35.040 to her husband, Kevin, who said that she'd been there'd 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:40.560 been a Twitter storm that day and she was being 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.640 like kind of publicly shamed on Twitter and that was 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.680 and actually took her life. So I'd written a book 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.680 about public shaming, and I'd made a documentary about the 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.880 porn industry, so it just seemed like I should reach 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.520 out to her husband. So that's that's what happened. So 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:58.200 I reached out to him, and he said that he 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.160 completely he blamed the people who were dragging her on 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:05.640 Twitter for her death, and he was going to release 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.000 the statement and some of them were very big names 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.480 in the porn industry, and he was going to release 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:16.000 a statement naming and shaming the people who were respond 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:18.760 who he felt were responsible for her death. And then 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:23.280 shortly after that, a few people in the porn industry 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:28.520 said to me, we think mercedes death is more complicated. 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.240 There's more stuff going on. You should investigate it, implying 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:36.359 that maybe it wasn't even suicide. So that was what 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:38.040 set me off on the journey. 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.160 Yeah, I mean there's so much along the way as well, 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.159 a power outage, there's you know, the going to the 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:46.919 going to the hotel. There's all these little bits and 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:49.600 pieces that you kind of look at it and it's 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.640 a clue after clue that maybe there is something more 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:57.000 sinister of thought. Does that scare you though, when you 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:01.040 maybe make comments about, oh, it doesn't seem like that 0:18:01.200 --> 0:18:03.440 is that is exactly what happened? 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:04.399 Does that? Does that scare you? 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:06.600 In in once it's out there. 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:11.240 Entering into the world of crime or potentially crime, entering 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:15.359 into that from afar, but kind of putting yourself into it. 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:19.120 Yeah, well, I guess there's there are fears. There's probably 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:23.080 well one of the fears, Okay, I'm putting myself in 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:28.800 personal danger is one. I'm putting myself in legal jeopardy 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:33.080 is another. And then the third one is is this 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:38.000 ethically the right thing to do? And those are like, 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:43.400 you know, at what point is it appropriate to pro 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:49.680 around in somebody's life, especially somebody who's you know, grieving, 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:55.040 even if their behavior was shitty. So you know, all 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.080 of these things were just like rustling around in my 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.200 head for like the two years I was making however 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:01.840 logic talk to make the show. So yeah, like those 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:07.600 were three ultimately of the three fears, the one that 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.840 became the biggest one was the ethical one. The other 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.800 two I never felt with that story. I never felt 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:20.359 in any physical danger. Actually that's not true. We being leader, 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:22.520 did feel in physical danger. But I think we were 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:27.479 both being paranoid. Leader is the producer. I think we 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.040 were just being paranoid. But at one point we hired 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:33.320 armed like an armed guard. 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:35.760 Wow. Yeah. 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:39.159 And but honestly, looking back on us, I think we 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:45.879 were being paranoid. God, I was gonna say, And I 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.200 never felt there was any legal jeopardy because honestly, we're 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:53.399 really careful, we're really assiduous, like I don't, you know, 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:55.760 mess around with that kind of stuff. So the only 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:59.440 thing left really was was was kind of ethical. And 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:05.160 that just haunted me. And you know, and anybody who 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:09.040 does true crime reporting, if they're not haunted by that, 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:11.160 then they shouldn't be in the job. 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.040 Yeah, and then they're going to run into the legal 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.200 part as well. I think that if you're not haunted 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:16.560 by that. 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.960 You come from this really disarming, this disarming kind of 0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:25.080 point of view where you you always and it's so 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:28.320 genuine with you. You care about the people and you 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:31.200 want to find out more. Do you feel like that 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.720 that really you know that that way that you've kind 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.520 of come into journalism and you probably see it done 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:39.600 incorrectly a lot, do you do you look at that 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:41.680 and kind of go, this was always you know, that's 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:44.400 kind of your superpower in a way that people kind 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:47.600 of trust you and and and want to want to 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.040 divulge a lot of information I want to. 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.000 I think it's I think it's maybe more like, you know, 0:20:54.040 --> 0:20:56.919 when I decide to do a story, I get so 0:20:57.600 --> 0:20:59.800 obsessed with that, like I go down the rabbit hole 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:04.200 and just completely consumes me. By the time I'm approaching interviewees, 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.800 my passion for the story and for them and their stories. 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:13.479 I guess it becomes, you know, kind of rubs off 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:17.520 from them, and they and they're more agreeable to talk 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:21.120 to me. And I guess there's a sort of enthusiasm 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.800 that comes with the curiosity, and maybe that sort of 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:33.400 pumptiousness is attractive to them. Yeah, And and I am 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.119 genuinely curious, Like it's rare that I go into a 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:41.439 situation feeling judgmental, Like I'm genuinely curious. And so when 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.119 I'm talking to them, I think they can tell they 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:44.720 can tell. 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:49.000 That absolutely with the psychopath test, like going in to 0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:53.720 meet different psychopaths and actually staying in touch with people. 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:58.000 Has that always been something about the stories that you 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.399 tell that you kind of you are so involved in 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:04.879 these people's lives, and you have stayed in touch with 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:08.960 with the people who identify themselves as psychopaths. You know 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:11.400