WEBVTT - Part 1: The AFL’s first openly bisexual player

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is this is the Daily This is

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<v Speaker 1>the Daily OS.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to

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<v Speaker 2>the Daily OS. It's Thursday, the twenty eighth of August.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Sam Kazlowski. Exactly one week ago, we brought you

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<v Speaker 2>a podcast episode that posed a very simple question, does

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<v Speaker 2>the AFL have a homophobia problem? At the core of

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<v Speaker 2>this discussion is the fact that the AFL is the

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<v Speaker 2>only major professional male sporting code in the world to

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<v Speaker 2>have never had an openly gay or bisexual player past

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<v Speaker 2>or present. It's a remarkable statistic for a game more

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<v Speaker 2>than one hundred and twenty years old, but that statement

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<v Speaker 2>is no longer true. On today's podcast, we sit down

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<v Speaker 2>with former West Coast Eagles player Mitch Brown. What started

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<v Speaker 2>with an Instagram DM from Mitch to TDA last Thursday

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<v Speaker 2>night culminated in an in depth chat that we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to bring you in two parts today and tomorrow. What

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<v Speaker 2>you're about to hear isn't just the biggest story TDA

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<v Speaker 2>has ever told. It's a conversation that will echo through

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<v Speaker 2>every football club, every locker room, and hopefully every young

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<v Speaker 2>person's bedroom across the country. We are really honored that

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<v Speaker 2>Mitch chose TDA as the platform to tell his story.

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<v Speaker 2>This is our historic chat with Mitch Brown, exclusively on TDA.

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<v Speaker 1>You're right nervous, A smile when I'm nervous. I'm nervous too.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a good try to have Mitch.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much for joining us on the Daily Odds

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<v Speaker 2>Today Worries. So, I was about this time last week

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<v Speaker 2>that I got a DM from you on Instagram. Take

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<v Speaker 2>me through the hours that led up to sending that

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<v Speaker 2>message and what the message said.

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<v Speaker 1>The message it wasn't so much ours. It was a

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<v Speaker 1>moment in time for me, and there was seconds but

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<v Speaker 1>leading up to that, it's been years of you know, emotions,

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<v Speaker 1>feelings trapped in my head, in my soul, in my

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<v Speaker 1>heart for so long. And I sent you a DM

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<v Speaker 1>on Instagram after I saw a video when you're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about the recent homophobic slur and the AFL and the

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<v Speaker 1>reactions that came with that, and my text message said, Hey, Sam,

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<v Speaker 1>I played in the AFL for ten years for the

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<v Speaker 1>West Coast Eagules and I'm a bisexual man and that's

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<v Speaker 1>all it said.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a really big thing to say.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it feels amazing now, you know, when I sent

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the moments that led up to that, I

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<v Speaker 1>had this feeling of peace, but more importantly comfort and confidence,

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<v Speaker 1>confidence in who I am, my identity, and comfort with

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<v Speaker 1>sharing that and the people have around me.

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<v Speaker 2>There's been one hundred and twenty five years of vfl

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<v Speaker 2>AFL competition. That's tens of thousands of male players. You

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<v Speaker 2>are the first past or present player to say I'm

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<v Speaker 2>gay or I'm bisexual publicly. Why do you think it's

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<v Speaker 2>taken that long?

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<v Speaker 1>And you ask me that question, it's quite sad to

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<v Speaker 1>hear that, you know, you know, you start reflecting on

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<v Speaker 1>why is it taken me so long? Before you go

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<v Speaker 1>and question why is it taken the community so long?

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<v Speaker 1>And I get like the generations, not just how the

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<v Speaker 1>wider community fear feel about the queer community, but just everything.

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<v Speaker 1>Things change over the generations. We learn, we grow as

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<v Speaker 1>a society. We're more educated than ever, we have more

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<v Speaker 1>empathy than ever, and that correlates to the timeline, the

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<v Speaker 1>amount of time of why you know, being openly gay

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<v Speaker 1>or bisexual as an Australian rules footballer pastor present has

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<v Speaker 1>taken so long?

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<v Speaker 2>Why do you think it's taken you so long?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. For me, you know, society and definitely the communities

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<v Speaker 1>and the environments that I grew up with. I have

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<v Speaker 1>a beautiful family and I've lived very privileged life as

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<v Speaker 1>a white male in our society and things have come

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<v Speaker 1>to me quite easily. So I just want to acknowledge that,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, and I want to acknowledge it. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not speaking on behalf of the queer community. I'm only

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<v Speaker 1>speaking for my own experiences, lived experiences. But as I

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<v Speaker 1>was growing up, I was involved and you know, as

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<v Speaker 1>a male here in Australia, most of us are in

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<v Speaker 1>environments of hyper masculinity. So what I mean by that

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<v Speaker 1>is now, I grew up in Ballarat in the country,

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<v Speaker 1>played football when I was young, in juniors only with boys.

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<v Speaker 1>The young girls didn't have a chance to play football

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<v Speaker 1>our coaches. There was always men dads. I went to

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<v Speaker 1>primary school in the country and then went to high

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<v Speaker 1>school to an all boys Catholic school, and then as

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<v Speaker 1>a seventeen year old young man, flew across the country

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<v Speaker 1>and stepped into an extra hyper masculine environment and that

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<v Speaker 1>is at an AFL footballer.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's when you were drafted. You were drafted to

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<v Speaker 2>the West Coast Eagles and you went across the Perth

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<v Speaker 2>at seventeen seventeen. Was it around then that you started

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<v Speaker 2>questioning or thinking through your sexuality.

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<v Speaker 1>It's it's a really hard one to answer because these

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<v Speaker 1>thoughts have come up, questioning, and you know, part of

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<v Speaker 1>my experience has been suppressing that for so long, you know, unconscious,

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<v Speaker 1>like it's you don't even think about when you do

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<v Speaker 1>suppress it. You know, I grew up as a man

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<v Speaker 1>in Australia. I leave home, I'll find a girlfriend and

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<v Speaker 1>I'll get married, and that's that's how we do things.

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<v Speaker 1>And in the environments that you're in, whether it's a

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<v Speaker 1>high school, in the group chats, recess or in the

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<v Speaker 1>locker room as a footballer, as an adult, you just

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<v Speaker 1>it was never once an opportunity to speak openly or

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<v Speaker 1>explore your feelings or my feelings or questions in a

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<v Speaker 1>safer way.

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<v Speaker 2>Was it just something that was absent or was it discouraged?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think discouraged? What do you mean by that?

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<v Speaker 1>We all know that the locker room chat, the chats

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<v Speaker 1>in the spa, and so I'm speaking about AFL football

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<v Speaker 1>environment now and the chats. We're all geared around, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>who did everyone pick up on the weekend, or you know,

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<v Speaker 1>she's pretty hot, or she's this and that, And it

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<v Speaker 1>was never once. I wouldn't even it wasn't even in

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<v Speaker 1>my mind to share or ask the question, or bring

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<v Speaker 1>things up or even talk about the queer community at all.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, you know, it was always something that you'd

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<v Speaker 1>keep inside because if you did put out a question

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<v Speaker 1>or you did talk about you know, I love David

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<v Speaker 1>Bowie the artist music in his music, and even if

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<v Speaker 1>I was to talk about David Bowie as a talented artist,

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<v Speaker 1>as someone to aspire me to be truly yourself and

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<v Speaker 1>happy with whoever you are, the conversation would always steer

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<v Speaker 1>back about his sexuality.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think the thing that's really interesting to me

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<v Speaker 2>is that I think I'm right in describing these guys

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<v Speaker 2>also as some of your best mates and housemates at

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<v Speaker 2>the time and lifelong friends. Explain the disconnects then, though,

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<v Speaker 2>that you did have intimate relationships with this group of players,

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<v Speaker 2>but couldn't or didn't talk about this key part of you.

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<v Speaker 1>You learn very quickly just to say nothing. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I was always very very good at putting things deep

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<v Speaker 1>inside of me. Not just about my sexuality but about everything.

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<v Speaker 1>I could bury them so deep, and most people in

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<v Speaker 1>my position can do that better than anyone. And you

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<v Speaker 1>move on. And especially in a high performance environment like

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<v Speaker 1>the AFL, it's so clear your task and that is

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<v Speaker 1>to train hard, get better, win games, win a premiership.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's really easy to not bring your personal life

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<v Speaker 1>into things, to stay quiet, to not share too much

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<v Speaker 1>of yourself, because you know you can eat easily, still

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<v Speaker 1>be an amazing team member and not reveal yourself your

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<v Speaker 1>true identity, and still be successful. You know, there was

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<v Speaker 1>one time I did share my questions about my sexuality

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<v Speaker 1>with a teammate or with you know, a person in

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<v Speaker 1>my footballing community in Western Australia, and it was it's

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<v Speaker 1>just a sort of casual question around how do you

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<v Speaker 1>know if you're gay? How do you know if you're bisexual?

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<v Speaker 1>And I remember it happened a long ago, a long

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<v Speaker 1>time ago, in two thousand and seven, but it was

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<v Speaker 1>laugh laughed at. It was almost like, that's a funny question.

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<v Speaker 1>You've been funny Mitch, And then the conversation just rolled on,

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<v Speaker 1>but it was made as a joke and I remember

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<v Speaker 1>how that made me feel and I swore never to

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<v Speaker 1>bring that up over again.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you were nineteen in two thousand and seven. That's

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<v Speaker 2>a really important age to be asking that question, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure a really important age to be hearing a

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<v Speaker 2>reaction like that to it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean, I've had so much time to think

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<v Speaker 1>about this, to sit with my emotions and feelings over

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<v Speaker 1>the years, and you know, sorry, what was that question again?

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<v Speaker 2>Why don't we talk about on the field. I think

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<v Speaker 2>you've painted a really good picture of the locker room.

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<v Speaker 2>Talk to me about combat on the field and the

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<v Speaker 2>role of homophobic comments in your playing career as almost

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<v Speaker 2>a weapon to be used against your opposition.

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<v Speaker 1>I think on the field, you're trying to beat your opponent, right,

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<v Speaker 1>trying to win, and the best way to do that

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<v Speaker 1>is to show you show your strength. One of the

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<v Speaker 1>ways you do that is to belittle your opponent, bring

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<v Speaker 1>them down. And you do it physically, Yeah, and then

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<v Speaker 1>you can do it verbally as well. You know, you

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<v Speaker 1>can say all sorts of things. And you hear that

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<v Speaker 1>on the field every single week, every single game. You

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<v Speaker 1>hear that in your workplace, on the building site at schools.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I think this year, you know, it's very known.

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<v Speaker 1>It's become an AFL problem, but it's an Australian man's problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you remember any times where you had homophobic comments

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<v Speaker 2>directed at you?

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<v Speaker 1>Countless? And it wasn't because you know people, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm straight presenting man, and you know it was used

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<v Speaker 1>because a gay man, a bisexual man, someone in the

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<v Speaker 1>queer community was seen as someone so small and low

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<v Speaker 1>and weak. You know, for a man in Australia, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>that's probably the weakest thing you could be. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>certainly when I was growing up at school, the word

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<v Speaker 1>gay was thrown around constantly. And we're at all boys school,

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, to belittle someone or to hurt someone,

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<v Speaker 1>you would say, oh, you're gay, and it just became

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<v Speaker 1>part of the normal conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>What was it like hearing those homophobic comments directed at

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<v Speaker 2>you and internalizing that homophobia while you were navigating your

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<v Speaker 2>own identity in your twenties.

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<v Speaker 1>That's exactly right, Sam, Like you know I went. Most

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<v Speaker 1>young people finish school and go to university, go traveling

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<v Speaker 1>or a gap year and have the time and space

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<v Speaker 1>to find your people, your community, your queer community, or

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<v Speaker 1>explore and you only speak because this is my experience

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<v Speaker 1>for footballers, I went into this hyper masculine environment not

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<v Speaker 1>being able to have the chance to explore my sexuality.

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<v Speaker 1>When you hear these comments and if to someone else

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<v Speaker 1>or in general conversation or directed at you, you've suppressed

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<v Speaker 1>these feelings so much because that culture is so strong

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<v Speaker 1>around being a strong male in their eyes, that you forget,

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<v Speaker 1>You forget who you are and your identity. This notion

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<v Speaker 1>around a queer player being in the AFL AFL men's

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<v Speaker 1>has come up time and time again. You know, I

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<v Speaker 1>really want this to be a anti climax or an event.

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<v Speaker 2>The reality is that you retired many years ago and

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<v Speaker 2>we're still in relatively the same position with the frequency

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<v Speaker 2>of homophobic talking points in the AFL. Has anything changed

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<v Speaker 2>since you played?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think? Well? I can't speak for the locker

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<v Speaker 1>rooms down, but you know the fact that we're hearing

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<v Speaker 1>more publicly about a homophobic slur is a good thing

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<v Speaker 1>because it is being called out. I remember when this issue,

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<v Speaker 1>say issue, when this was talked brought up At one

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<v Speaker 1>time when I was playing around, no gay men in

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<v Speaker 1>the AFL were sitting in the massage room and there

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<v Speaker 1>was just the general conversation around the issues in the AFL,

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<v Speaker 1>and this came up, and I remember two people having

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<v Speaker 1>a conversation around how they would feel having a shower

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<v Speaker 1>next to a gay man. One of the players referred it,

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<v Speaker 1>I'd rather be in a cage full of lines than

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<v Speaker 1>have a shower next to a gay man. And There's

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<v Speaker 1>been so many times in my life that I've seen

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<v Speaker 1>things or heard things and not said anything. And I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't say anything in fear of people thinking that I

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<v Speaker 1>was gay or bisexual. I remember that feeling so like,

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<v Speaker 1>it's so strong, and I didn't do anything about that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a lot of fear to hold. Talk to

0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:53.040
<v Speaker 2>me about them where you began to deconstruct that fear.

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:58.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, just speaking about that locker room from that day,

0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:02.880
<v Speaker 1>Like I part of the conversations that we used to

0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:04.880
<v Speaker 1>have in the locker room in the spas and the

0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:09.320
<v Speaker 1>swimming pools and is like, oh, you know who is

0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.080
<v Speaker 1>gay in this footy club? Oh, we think it's that

0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.600
<v Speaker 1>it's definitely that person. They haven't had a girlfriend for

0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:21.120
<v Speaker 1>a while or ever. So you know, even that those conversations,

0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:25.120
<v Speaker 1>that culture, that behavior, you know, sitting there hearing that again,

0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:29.560
<v Speaker 1>you're bury it even further. You know, I got to

0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.880
<v Speaker 1>the the end of my career and I was asked

0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.720
<v Speaker 1>to play on for a couple more years, and I

0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:39.160
<v Speaker 1>was over it. I was done.

0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.720
<v Speaker 2>How much of a role did this conversation we're having

0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:44.160
<v Speaker 2>today and the topics in it, How much of a

0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:46.840
<v Speaker 2>role did that have in you making that call to

0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:47.560
<v Speaker 2>end your career?

0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.960
<v Speaker 1>Huge, right, and not so much about you know, my

0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.880
<v Speaker 1>sexuality is only one part of me. There's a lot

0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:58.760
<v Speaker 1>of part of parts of Mitch. And one of the

0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.800
<v Speaker 1>biggest reasons I wanted to finish up playing AFL was

0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:08.719
<v Speaker 1>to meet new people. I craved talking to someone and

0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:13.720
<v Speaker 1>not being judged. I craved the ability to choose who

0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:17.800
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to be around rather than to fit in

0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:22.040
<v Speaker 1>to a team. And you know, ultimately, in all aspects

0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.760
<v Speaker 1>of my life, not just my sexuality. That's why I

0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:32.520
<v Speaker 1>was decided to finish. And when I finished, I never

0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:34.920
<v Speaker 1>looked back on my career and football, and I played

0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.879
<v Speaker 1>for ten years, so there's enough there to, you know,

0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.439
<v Speaker 1>have some sort of wisdom. And I look back and

0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't. I'm not disgruntled. I didn't hate my experience

0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:50.159
<v Speaker 1>as a footballer. I loved it. But I'm so ready

0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:54.560
<v Speaker 1>to finish and move on, and it took me a

0:17:54.600 --> 0:18:03.000
<v Speaker 1>while to start to deconstruct this strong identity that was

0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.840
<v Speaker 1>stowed upon me by the environments that I was in,

0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.199
<v Speaker 1>that I truly believed in, like I bought into that.

0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:12.280
<v Speaker 1>The fear was so strong.

0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:16.200
<v Speaker 2>And the fear of being caught out, Yeah.

0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:21.719
<v Speaker 1>So strong that you don't dare scared of being outed

0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:28.240
<v Speaker 1>or someone to call you gay. And then because I

0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.520
<v Speaker 1>wasn't ready, I wasn't confident in my identity and who

0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.359
<v Speaker 1>I was, my natural reaction would be to suppress that,

0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:43.919
<v Speaker 1>to you know, project my masculinity even more. And I

0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.240
<v Speaker 1>wasn't ready for that. I didn't understand. I didn't have

0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:50.119
<v Speaker 1>the confidence in my identity as a bisexual man.

0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.360
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for joining us for the first half of our

0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.720
<v Speaker 2>conversation with Mitch Brown. If you need support or someone

0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.280
<v Speaker 2>to talk to at any time, you can contact Lifeline

0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:02.640
<v Speaker 2>on thirteen eleven fourteen or q life on one eight

0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.480
<v Speaker 2>hundred one eight four five two seven. We'll bring you

0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:08.080
<v Speaker 2>the second half of that chat tomorrow.

0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.000
<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:19.000
<v Speaker 1>Bungelung Calkatin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.240
<v Speaker 1>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:24.879
<v Speaker 1>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest

0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.760
<v Speaker 1>Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the

0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.560
<v Speaker 1>first peoples of these countries, both past and present.