Speaker 1: Already and this is this is the Daily This is
Speaker 1: the Daily OS.
Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning, and welcome to
Speaker 2: the Daily OS. It's Thursday, the twenty eighth of August.
Speaker 2: I'm Sam Kazlowski. Exactly one week ago, we brought you
Speaker 2: a podcast episode that posed a very simple question, does
Speaker 2: the AFL have a homophobia problem? At the core of
Speaker 2: this discussion is the fact that the AFL is the
Speaker 2: only major professional male sporting code in the world to
Speaker 2: have never had an openly gay or bisexual player past
Speaker 2: or present. It's a remarkable statistic for a game more
Speaker 2: than one hundred and twenty years old, but that statement
Speaker 2: is no longer true. On today's podcast, we sit down
Speaker 2: with former West Coast Eagles player Mitch Brown. What started
Speaker 2: with an Instagram DM from Mitch to TDA last Thursday
Speaker 2: night culminated in an in depth chat that we're going
Speaker 2: to bring you in two parts today and tomorrow. What
Speaker 2: you're about to hear isn't just the biggest story TDA
Speaker 2: has ever told. It's a conversation that will echo through
Speaker 2: every football club, every locker room, and hopefully every young
Speaker 2: person's bedroom across the country. We are really honored that
Speaker 2: Mitch chose TDA as the platform to tell his story.
Speaker 2: This is our historic chat with Mitch Brown, exclusively on TDA.
Speaker 1: You're right nervous, A smile when I'm nervous. I'm nervous too.
Speaker 1: It's a good try to have Mitch.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for joining us on the Daily Odds
Speaker 2: Today Worries. So, I was about this time last week
Speaker 2: that I got a DM from you on Instagram. Take
Speaker 2: me through the hours that led up to sending that
Speaker 2: message and what the message said.
Speaker 1: The message it wasn't so much ours. It was a
Speaker 1: moment in time for me, and there was seconds but
Speaker 1: leading up to that, it's been years of you know, emotions,
Speaker 1: feelings trapped in my head, in my soul, in my
Speaker 1: heart for so long. And I sent you a DM
Speaker 1: on Instagram after I saw a video when you're talking
Speaker 1: about the recent homophobic slur and the AFL and the
Speaker 1: reactions that came with that, and my text message said, Hey, Sam,
Speaker 1: I played in the AFL for ten years for the
Speaker 1: West Coast Eagules and I'm a bisexual man and that's
Speaker 1: all it said.
Speaker 2: That's a really big thing to say.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels amazing now, you know, when I sent
Speaker 1: you know, the moments that led up to that, I
Speaker 1: had this feeling of peace, but more importantly comfort and confidence,
Speaker 1: confidence in who I am, my identity, and comfort with
Speaker 1: sharing that and the people have around me.
Speaker 2: There's been one hundred and twenty five years of vfl
Speaker 2: AFL competition. That's tens of thousands of male players. You
Speaker 2: are the first past or present player to say I'm
Speaker 2: gay or I'm bisexual publicly. Why do you think it's
Speaker 2: taken that long?
Speaker 1: And you ask me that question, it's quite sad to
Speaker 1: hear that, you know, you know, you start reflecting on
Speaker 1: why is it taken me so long? Before you go
Speaker 1: and question why is it taken the community so long?
Speaker 1: And I get like the generations, not just how the
Speaker 1: wider community fear feel about the queer community, but just everything.
Speaker 1: Things change over the generations. We learn, we grow as
Speaker 1: a society. We're more educated than ever, we have more
Speaker 1: empathy than ever, and that correlates to the timeline, the
Speaker 1: amount of time of why you know, being openly gay
Speaker 1: or bisexual as an Australian rules footballer pastor present has
Speaker 1: taken so long?
Speaker 2: Why do you think it's taken you so long?
Speaker 1: Yeah. For me, you know, society and definitely the communities
Speaker 1: and the environments that I grew up with. I have
Speaker 1: a beautiful family and I've lived very privileged life as
Speaker 1: a white male in our society and things have come
Speaker 1: to me quite easily. So I just want to acknowledge that,
Speaker 1: and you know, and I want to acknowledge it. I'm
Speaker 1: not speaking on behalf of the queer community. I'm only
Speaker 1: speaking for my own experiences, lived experiences. But as I
Speaker 1: was growing up, I was involved and you know, as
Speaker 1: a male here in Australia, most of us are in
Speaker 1: environments of hyper masculinity. So what I mean by that
Speaker 1: is now, I grew up in Ballarat in the country,
Speaker 1: played football when I was young, in juniors only with boys.
Speaker 1: The young girls didn't have a chance to play football
Speaker 1: our coaches. There was always men dads. I went to
Speaker 1: primary school in the country and then went to high
Speaker 1: school to an all boys Catholic school, and then as
Speaker 1: a seventeen year old young man, flew across the country
Speaker 1: and stepped into an extra hyper masculine environment and that
Speaker 1: is at an AFL footballer.
Speaker 2: So that's when you were drafted. You were drafted to
Speaker 2: the West Coast Eagles and you went across the Perth
Speaker 2: at seventeen seventeen. Was it around then that you started
Speaker 2: questioning or thinking through your sexuality.
Speaker 1: It's it's a really hard one to answer because these
Speaker 1: thoughts have come up, questioning, and you know, part of
Speaker 1: my experience has been suppressing that for so long, you know, unconscious,
Speaker 1: like it's you don't even think about when you do
Speaker 1: suppress it. You know, I grew up as a man
Speaker 1: in Australia. I leave home, I'll find a girlfriend and
Speaker 1: I'll get married, and that's that's how we do things.
Speaker 1: And in the environments that you're in, whether it's a
Speaker 1: high school, in the group chats, recess or in the
Speaker 1: locker room as a footballer, as an adult, you just
Speaker 1: it was never once an opportunity to speak openly or
Speaker 1: explore your feelings or my feelings or questions in a
Speaker 1: safer way.
Speaker 2: Was it just something that was absent or was it discouraged?
Speaker 1: Do you think discouraged? What do you mean by that?
Speaker 1: We all know that the locker room chat, the chats
Speaker 1: in the spa, and so I'm speaking about AFL football
Speaker 1: environment now and the chats. We're all geared around, you know,
Speaker 1: who did everyone pick up on the weekend, or you know,
Speaker 1: she's pretty hot, or she's this and that, And it
Speaker 1: was never once. I wouldn't even it wasn't even in
Speaker 1: my mind to share or ask the question, or bring
Speaker 1: things up or even talk about the queer community at all.
Speaker 1: In fact, you know, it was always something that you'd
Speaker 1: keep inside because if you did put out a question
Speaker 1: or you did talk about you know, I love David
Speaker 1: Bowie the artist music in his music, and even if
Speaker 1: I was to talk about David Bowie as a talented artist,
Speaker 1: as someone to aspire me to be truly yourself and
Speaker 1: happy with whoever you are, the conversation would always steer
Speaker 1: back about his sexuality.
Speaker 2: And I think the thing that's really interesting to me
Speaker 2: is that I think I'm right in describing these guys
Speaker 2: also as some of your best mates and housemates at
Speaker 2: the time and lifelong friends. Explain the disconnects then, though,
Speaker 2: that you did have intimate relationships with this group of players,
Speaker 2: but couldn't or didn't talk about this key part of you.
Speaker 1: You learn very quickly just to say nothing. And you know,
Speaker 1: I was always very very good at putting things deep
Speaker 1: inside of me. Not just about my sexuality but about everything.
Speaker 1: I could bury them so deep, and most people in
Speaker 1: my position can do that better than anyone. And you
Speaker 1: move on. And especially in a high performance environment like
Speaker 1: the AFL, it's so clear your task and that is
Speaker 1: to train hard, get better, win games, win a premiership.
Speaker 1: So it's really easy to not bring your personal life
Speaker 1: into things, to stay quiet, to not share too much
Speaker 1: of yourself, because you know you can eat easily, still
Speaker 1: be an amazing team member and not reveal yourself your
Speaker 1: true identity, and still be successful. You know, there was
Speaker 1: one time I did share my questions about my sexuality
Speaker 1: with a teammate or with you know, a person in
Speaker 1: my footballing community in Western Australia, and it was it's
Speaker 1: just a sort of casual question around how do you
Speaker 1: know if you're gay? How do you know if you're bisexual?
Speaker 1: And I remember it happened a long ago, a long
Speaker 1: time ago, in two thousand and seven, but it was
Speaker 1: laugh laughed at. It was almost like, that's a funny question.
Speaker 1: You've been funny Mitch, And then the conversation just rolled on,
Speaker 1: but it was made as a joke and I remember
Speaker 1: how that made me feel and I swore never to
Speaker 1: bring that up over again.
Speaker 2: Well, you were nineteen in two thousand and seven. That's
Speaker 2: a really important age to be asking that question, and
Speaker 2: I'm sure a really important age to be hearing a
Speaker 2: reaction like that to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I've had so much time to think
Speaker 1: about this, to sit with my emotions and feelings over
Speaker 1: the years, and you know, sorry, what was that question again?
Speaker 2: Why don't we talk about on the field. I think
Speaker 2: you've painted a really good picture of the locker room.
Speaker 2: Talk to me about combat on the field and the
Speaker 2: role of homophobic comments in your playing career as almost
Speaker 2: a weapon to be used against your opposition.
Speaker 1: I think on the field, you're trying to beat your opponent, right,
Speaker 1: trying to win, and the best way to do that
Speaker 1: is to show you show your strength. One of the
Speaker 1: ways you do that is to belittle your opponent, bring
Speaker 1: them down. And you do it physically, Yeah, and then
Speaker 1: you can do it verbally as well. You know, you
Speaker 1: can say all sorts of things. And you hear that
Speaker 1: on the field every single week, every single game. You
Speaker 1: hear that in your workplace, on the building site at schools.
Speaker 1: You know, I think this year, you know, it's very known.
Speaker 1: It's become an AFL problem, but it's an Australian man's problem.
Speaker 2: Do you remember any times where you had homophobic comments
Speaker 2: directed at you?
Speaker 1: Countless? And it wasn't because you know people, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm straight presenting man, and you know it was used
Speaker 1: because a gay man, a bisexual man, someone in the
Speaker 1: queer community was seen as someone so small and low
Speaker 1: and weak. You know, for a man in Australia, you know,
Speaker 1: that's probably the weakest thing you could be. You know,
Speaker 1: certainly when I was growing up at school, the word
Speaker 1: gay was thrown around constantly. And we're at all boys school,
Speaker 1: so you know, to belittle someone or to hurt someone,
Speaker 1: you would say, oh, you're gay, and it just became
Speaker 1: part of the normal conversation.
Speaker 2: What was it like hearing those homophobic comments directed at
Speaker 2: you and internalizing that homophobia while you were navigating your
Speaker 2: own identity in your twenties.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right, Sam, Like you know I went. Most
Speaker 1: young people finish school and go to university, go traveling
Speaker 1: or a gap year and have the time and space
Speaker 1: to find your people, your community, your queer community, or
Speaker 1: explore and you only speak because this is my experience
Speaker 1: for footballers, I went into this hyper masculine environment not
Speaker 1: being able to have the chance to explore my sexuality.
Speaker 1: When you hear these comments and if to someone else
Speaker 1: or in general conversation or directed at you, you've suppressed
Speaker 1: these feelings so much because that culture is so strong
Speaker 1: around being a strong male in their eyes, that you forget,
Speaker 1: You forget who you are and your identity. This notion
Speaker 1: around a queer player being in the AFL AFL men's
Speaker 1: has come up time and time again. You know, I
Speaker 1: really want this to be a anti climax or an event.
Speaker 2: The reality is that you retired many years ago and
Speaker 2: we're still in relatively the same position with the frequency
Speaker 2: of homophobic talking points in the AFL. Has anything changed
Speaker 2: since you played?
Speaker 1: Do you think? Well? I can't speak for the locker
Speaker 1: rooms down, but you know the fact that we're hearing
Speaker 1: more publicly about a homophobic slur is a good thing
Speaker 1: because it is being called out. I remember when this issue,
Speaker 1: say issue, when this was talked brought up At one
Speaker 1: time when I was playing around, no gay men in
Speaker 1: the AFL were sitting in the massage room and there
Speaker 1: was just the general conversation around the issues in the AFL,
Speaker 1: and this came up, and I remember two people having
Speaker 1: a conversation around how they would feel having a shower
Speaker 1: next to a gay man. One of the players referred it,
Speaker 1: I'd rather be in a cage full of lines than
Speaker 1: have a shower next to a gay man. And There's
Speaker 1: been so many times in my life that I've seen
Speaker 1: things or heard things and not said anything. And I
Speaker 1: didn't say anything in fear of people thinking that I
Speaker 1: was gay or bisexual. I remember that feeling so like,
Speaker 1: it's so strong, and I didn't do anything about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a lot of fear to hold. Talk to
Speaker 2: me about them where you began to deconstruct that fear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, just speaking about that locker room from that day,
Speaker 1: Like I part of the conversations that we used to
Speaker 1: have in the locker room in the spas and the
Speaker 1: swimming pools and is like, oh, you know who is
Speaker 1: gay in this footy club? Oh, we think it's that
Speaker 1: it's definitely that person. They haven't had a girlfriend for
Speaker 1: a while or ever. So you know, even that those conversations,
Speaker 1: that culture, that behavior, you know, sitting there hearing that again,
Speaker 1: you're bury it even further. You know, I got to
Speaker 1: the the end of my career and I was asked
Speaker 1: to play on for a couple more years, and I
Speaker 1: was over it. I was done.
Speaker 2: How much of a role did this conversation we're having
Speaker 2: today and the topics in it, How much of a
Speaker 2: role did that have in you making that call to
Speaker 2: end your career?
Speaker 1: Huge, right, and not so much about you know, my
Speaker 1: sexuality is only one part of me. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of part of parts of Mitch. And one of the
Speaker 1: biggest reasons I wanted to finish up playing AFL was
Speaker 1: to meet new people. I craved talking to someone and
Speaker 1: not being judged. I craved the ability to choose who
Speaker 1: I wanted to be around rather than to fit in
Speaker 1: to a team. And you know, ultimately, in all aspects
Speaker 1: of my life, not just my sexuality. That's why I
Speaker 1: was decided to finish. And when I finished, I never
Speaker 1: looked back on my career and football, and I played
Speaker 1: for ten years, so there's enough there to, you know,
Speaker 1: have some sort of wisdom. And I look back and
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not disgruntled. I didn't hate my experience
Speaker 1: as a footballer. I loved it. But I'm so ready
Speaker 1: to finish and move on, and it took me a
Speaker 1: while to start to deconstruct this strong identity that was
Speaker 1: stowed upon me by the environments that I was in,
Speaker 1: that I truly believed in, like I bought into that.
Speaker 1: The fear was so strong.
Speaker 2: And the fear of being caught out, Yeah.
Speaker 1: So strong that you don't dare scared of being outed
Speaker 1: or someone to call you gay. And then because I
Speaker 1: wasn't ready, I wasn't confident in my identity and who
Speaker 1: I was, my natural reaction would be to suppress that,
Speaker 1: to you know, project my masculinity even more. And I
Speaker 1: wasn't ready for that. I didn't understand. I didn't have
Speaker 1: the confidence in my identity as a bisexual man.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us for the first half of our
Speaker 2: conversation with Mitch Brown. If you need support or someone
Speaker 2: to talk to at any time, you can contact Lifeline
Speaker 2: on thirteen eleven fourteen or q life on one eight
Speaker 2: hundred one eight four five two seven. We'll bring you
Speaker 2: the second half of that chat tomorrow.
Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda
Speaker 1: Bungelung Calkatin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges
Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the
Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest
Speaker 1: Rate island and nations. We pay our respects to the
Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.