1
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,559
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

2
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,119
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

3
00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:11,160
Speaker 2: answers Now, gooday.

4
00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,600
Speaker 1: And welcome to the Happy Family's Podcast. My name is

5
00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,920
Speaker 1: doctor Justin Coilson. I'm just delighted states to welcome an

6
00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,840
Speaker 1: esteemed guest to the podcast. Brad Wilcox, Professor of sociology

7
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,400
Speaker 1: and the director of the National Marriage Project at the

8
00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,640
Speaker 1: University of Virginia, the Future of Freedom Fellow at the

9
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,520
Speaker 1: Institute for Family Studies, and a non resident Senior Fellow

10
00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,440
Speaker 1: at the American Enterprise Institute. I think that when it

11
00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,559
Speaker 1: comes to academic credentials, this guy has them all. He

12
00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,920
Speaker 1: studies marital quality marital stability in the impact of strong

13
00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:45,040
Speaker 1: and stable marriages upon men, women, and children. Brad has

14
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,440
Speaker 1: written six books. He's also written for The New York Times,

15
00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,879
Speaker 1: The Wall Street Journal, the Atlantic National Review, as well

16
00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,480
Speaker 1: as scientific journals such as the American Sociological Review and

17
00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,040
Speaker 1: the Journal of Marriage and Family. He lives in Charlottesville, Virginia,

18
00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,440
Speaker 1: with his wife and family, including a dotted kids, some twins.

19
00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:03,280
Speaker 1: They're all in there. Brad, you and I got to

20
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,000
Speaker 1: know each other probably a dozen years ago at a

21
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:06,800
Speaker 1: big conference here in Australia and it's just such a

22
00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,039
Speaker 1: delight to have you on the Happy Families podcast today.

23
00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:09,760
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me.

24
00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,360
Speaker 2: Wonderful to be here with you, justin what you're doing

25
00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:12,800
Speaker 2: down under.

26
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,240
Speaker 1: So, Brad, you've just written a book called Get Married.

27
00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,600
Speaker 1: Literally that's it, Get Married Why Americans, and I'm going

28
00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,160
Speaker 1: to say Australians as well, masterfy the elites, forge strong

29
00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:26,200
Speaker 1: families and save civilization. I finished the book across the weekend,

30
00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,360
Speaker 1: and in fact, I was really really fortunate to be

31
00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,240
Speaker 1: able to sneak away with my wife and one of

32
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,959
Speaker 1: our kids. We have this tradition when our kids turned sixteen,

33
00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,720
Speaker 1: we take them on a really special holiday for three

34
00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:39,440
Speaker 1: or four days. We talked to them about all the

35
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,440
Speaker 1: big stuff. I mean, we've had lots of conversations anyway,

36
00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:43,880
Speaker 1: but this is kind of a sweet sixteen. Let's talk

37
00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:48,400
Speaker 1: about romance and relationships and intimacy. Let's talk about finance

38
00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,520
Speaker 1: and education and the spiritual stuff. That's what we were doing.

39
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,040
Speaker 1: And while I was on the flight with my wife

40
00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,640
Speaker 1: and daughter, we got separated. I wasn't able to sit

41
00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,040
Speaker 1: with them. I was sitting beside this other couple. I

42
00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:01,480
Speaker 1: asked them where they were going and why they were

43
00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,800
Speaker 1: heading in the same direction as me, And they told

44
00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:05,160
Speaker 1: me a bit about what was going on. They were

45
00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 1: heading off for a wedding. They were going to be

46
00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,160
Speaker 1: celebrating their friend's wedding, and during the course of the conversation,

47
00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,320
Speaker 1: the woman that I was sitting next to told me

48
00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,760
Speaker 1: that they were several months pregnant. And then they also said,

49
00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,360
Speaker 1: we haven't gotten married yet. I was holding your book

50
00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,080
Speaker 1: called Get Married, and it led to a conversation where

51
00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:25,440
Speaker 1: she sort of said, what's the book about, what's about

52
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,520
Speaker 1: why you should get married? And as we talked, what

53
00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,040
Speaker 1: was really interesting to me was I was trying not

54
00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,359
Speaker 1: to let her eyes glaze over when I got into

55
00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:36,320
Speaker 1: some statistics and talked about the policy implications of it.

56
00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,000
Speaker 1: But she started to get a little bit bored. She

57
00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:40,520
Speaker 1: started to feel like I was telling her that she

58
00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,520
Speaker 1: had to get married because she and the guy that

59
00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,120
Speaker 1: she was sitting beside were having a baby, and they

60
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 1: were off to a wedding and I'm reading a book

61
00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:47,679
Speaker 1: called Get Married. At all just kind of fitted there,

62
00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,840
Speaker 1: and yet she was really resistant to the idea. My

63
00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,520
Speaker 1: first question for you is are people just not getting

64
00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:55,560
Speaker 1: married anymore?

65
00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,440
Speaker 2: Well, we've certainly seen a dramatic decline both in the

66
00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,919
Speaker 2: United States and in Australia in the marriage rate justin

67
00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,040
Speaker 2: so it's come down by about fifty percent in Australia

68
00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,560
Speaker 2: since nineteen seventy. And that's just kind of one indicator

69
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,359
Speaker 2: of what I call kind of the closing of the

70
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,440
Speaker 2: American art. You can talk about the closing of the

71
00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,440
Speaker 2: Australian heart where fewer and few people are getting married.

72
00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,720
Speaker 2: And I think it's partly about aspirations. It's less kind

73
00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,600
Speaker 2: of central as an aspiration for folks, including your seat

74
00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,679
Speaker 2: mate on the on the flight. But then of course

75
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,680
Speaker 2: too there are folks too if like they can't find

76
00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:29,760
Speaker 2: someone who'd be, you know, a good fit for them

77
00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,120
Speaker 2: or worthy of marriage as well. And that's more of

78
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:38,280
Speaker 2: a peorn working class challenge facing both Americans and Australians

79
00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:38,840
Speaker 2: as well.

80
00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 1: So I want to come back to the why stuff

81
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,680
Speaker 1: a little bit later in the conversation. The one thing

82
00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,520
Speaker 1: that I recall from discussions going back decades with people

83
00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,880
Speaker 1: around marriage is so many people will say, it's just

84
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 1: a piece of paper. What's your response to that.

85
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great I think challenge facing us. But

86
00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,360
Speaker 2: in terms of you know the data, it cannot be

87
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,840
Speaker 2: clear that there's really no comparison to marriage when it

88
00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:07,440
Speaker 2: comes to giving people a sense of stability, meaning direction

89
00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,960
Speaker 2: and happiness as well. And probably one of the big

90
00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,080
Speaker 2: differences between coabitation and marriage, because those, of course the

91
00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,240
Speaker 2: two real competitors here, is that marriage is just that

92
00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,040
Speaker 2: much more stable. What we see in the US, for instance,

93
00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,240
Speaker 2: is that folks who are having kids are about twice

94
00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 2: as likely to stay together compared to people who are

95
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,480
Speaker 2: cohabiting and having children. Just kind of something about that ceremony.

96
00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,320
Speaker 2: We're social animals. We actually attach a lot of sort

97
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:38,600
Speaker 2: of either implicit or explicit importance to rituals. And if

98
00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,200
Speaker 2: you think of just even kind of the difference between

99
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,000
Speaker 2: kind of coabitation and marriage in terms of terms of

100
00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,400
Speaker 2: entry justin I mean, imagine couples kind of moving in

101
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,480
Speaker 2: that you know, that first weekend. There's no assembled, you know,

102
00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,919
Speaker 2: group of family and friends watching them with smiles on

103
00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 2: their faces, no music, no vows exchanged, and all that's

104
00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,320
Speaker 2: just kind of not there. It's just two people doing

105
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 2: their own thing. And by contrast, marriage is about kind

106
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,880
Speaker 2: of a collective ritual where people come together family and friends,

107
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,800
Speaker 2: where the couple makes public vows, even often in the

108
00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,360
Speaker 2: secular ceremony, and that's just pretty important kind of defining

109
00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,400
Speaker 2: yourself not just you know, as a couple, but holes

110
00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:17,880
Speaker 2: in the eys of your family and friends in terms

111
00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,560
Speaker 2: of giving your relationship a sense of solidity that's much

112
00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,200
Speaker 2: more likely to go in the distance. So that's sort

113
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,360
Speaker 2: of one example of the way in which marriage and

114
00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:30,680
Speaker 2: grabitation really are quite different things, even in twenty twenty four.

115
00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,919
Speaker 1: Another angle that I hear a lot, and I do

116
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,120
Speaker 1: want to talk about the stats around how how marriage

117
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,760
Speaker 1: does benefit people versus cohabitation. But just before I go there,

118
00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,120
Speaker 1: I think of the paragon of the feminist movement and

119
00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,360
Speaker 1: had Opportunity, and this idea that marriage stifles life. I

120
00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,919
Speaker 1: think of e Pray Love and Elizabeth Gilbert and the

121
00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,039
Speaker 1: way that she has essentially said I wasn't happy, I

122
00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,560
Speaker 1: wasn't feeling fulfilled. I needed opportunity. I needed to find myself.

123
00:05:57,760 --> 00:05:59,960
Speaker 1: I need to do what makes me happy. This is

124
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,640
Speaker 1: something that it seems to it seems to be a

125
00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,960
Speaker 1: dominant narrative. I mean, your book is about why Americans

126
00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,800
Speaker 1: must defy the elites. This feels to me like it's

127
00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,359
Speaker 1: a really strong elite message. It comes from the major

128
00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,440
Speaker 1: media outlets, it comes from Hollywood. It certainly comes from

129
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,600
Speaker 1: the voices like Elizabeth Gilbert who are elevated because of

130
00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:19,560
Speaker 1: their book and their perspective on life. What's your response

131
00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,960
Speaker 1: to this idea that if I can just find myself,

132
00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to be much better off.

133
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. So what's interesting is I talk about the soulmate

134
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,400
Speaker 2: myth in the book, and it's kind of this idea,

135
00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,600
Speaker 2: and I begin that chapter with a discussion of Liz

136
00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,960
Speaker 2: Gilbert's book You Pray Love, and it's kind of like

137
00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,640
Speaker 2: this sort of assumption that there's like one perfect person

138
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,000
Speaker 2: out there for you. It's going to be kind of

139
00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,800
Speaker 2: like a seamless fit between you and that perfect person

140
00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,320
Speaker 2: for you. It's going to be kind of an intense

141
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,760
Speaker 2: emotional connection. It's kind of generally and generous sense of

142
00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,440
Speaker 2: fulfillment and happiness in your life and in your relationship.

143
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,599
Speaker 2: So I think this kind of like overly rosy view,

144
00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,920
Speaker 2: overly romanticized view of relationships is obviously kind of rose colored.

145
00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,480
Speaker 2: It doesn't kind of acknowledge that, you know, we grow

146
00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,640
Speaker 2: and change and there's conflict in a relationship, that we're

147
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,560
Speaker 2: not perfect so I think it has difficulty kind of

148
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,480
Speaker 2: wrapping its head around that it tends to be very

149
00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,720
Speaker 2: adult centered, not appreciating how much you know, marriage for instance,

150
00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,400
Speaker 2: matters for kids and for kin. It's also linked to

151
00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,040
Speaker 2: higher rates of you know, maritle and stability. We looked

152
00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,520
Speaker 2: at couples in California and found that couples who kind

153
00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 2: of embraced this more romanticized view of marriage were much

154
00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,240
Speaker 2: more likely to report that divorce might be in their

155
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,760
Speaker 2: future compared to couples who took what we call the

156
00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,480
Speaker 2: family first model that included yes, romans, but also kind

157
00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:38,560
Speaker 2: of recognizing the marriage about finances and kids and raising

158
00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,640
Speaker 2: a family together. But that's also I think worth bearing

159
00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,320
Speaker 2: in mind. And the final point that I'd make is

160
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:50,320
Speaker 2: that surprisingly, we also found that couples who embraced the

161
00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,000
Speaker 2: more family first model, which is kind of a more

162
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:57,920
Speaker 2: institutional model, a less you know, emotional model, were also

163
00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,640
Speaker 2: happy in their marriages. And I think gets in part

164
00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,120
Speaker 2: because there wasn't just kind of like this focus and

165
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,679
Speaker 2: expectation that there'd be kind of like this intense passion

166
00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 2: governing their relationship almost all the time. There's just kind

167
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:14,280
Speaker 2: of recognition that, yes, realminds is valuable, but I'm also

168
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:19,000
Speaker 2: grateful for my husband's role as a father, or my

169
00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 2: wife's place in organizing family holidays or whatever it might be.

170
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,040
Speaker 2: So there's just kind of a more rich understanding of

171
00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:30,560
Speaker 2: the many different kinds of goods served by marriage, and

172
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,320
Speaker 2: couples who had kind of this more balanced view, more

173
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,960
Speaker 2: realistic view about what marriage is all about, were actually

174
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,040
Speaker 2: happier as well. So I think the paradox of marital

175
00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,040
Speaker 2: happiness here that I talk about in that chapter is

176
00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,760
Speaker 2: that if you're kind of directly pursuing happiness in your

177
00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,520
Speaker 2: love relationship and in your marriage, you're less likely to

178
00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,800
Speaker 2: get it. And by contrast, if you're more intent on

179
00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,079
Speaker 2: being a good husband, a good wife, a good father,

180
00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,280
Speaker 2: and a good mother, I think you're more likely to

181
00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,880
Speaker 2: elicit that a tension, that affection, even that ardor that

182
00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,640
Speaker 2: comes from being a good spouse and a good parent.

183
00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:10,800
Speaker 1: A couple of observations based on what you've just said.

184
00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,720
Speaker 1: First Off, the Hollywood model is the relationships are all

185
00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,560
Speaker 1: about the whiz bang, or alternatively, once you look at

186
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,400
Speaker 1: the Hollywood stories that get into the nitty gritty of marriage,

187
00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,720
Speaker 1: they really do focus on the conflict and the challenge

188
00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,640
Speaker 1: and the difficulty. They're often quite sad stories. I'm guessing

189
00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,760
Speaker 1: that's because if you just told a story about a

190
00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,320
Speaker 1: happy couple, there wouldn't be much. Yeah, there's no drama.

191
00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 1: You need the tension and you need the conflict to

192
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,800
Speaker 1: tell a great story. But often those stories end up

193
00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,640
Speaker 1: so tragically. The second observation, as I'm listening to what

194
00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,920
Speaker 1: you're saying, is that what I think I'm hearing you

195
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,520
Speaker 1: tell me is that so many of the interactions that

196
00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,320
Speaker 1: I have with Kylie, my wife of twenty six years now,

197
00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,680
Speaker 1: are essentially logistics, and a good marriage ultimately comes down

198
00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,920
Speaker 1: to planning the meals for this week and working out

199
00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,160
Speaker 1: which parents taking which child where, and who's going to

200
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,040
Speaker 1: be here on Saturday night and who's going to be

201
00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:03,800
Speaker 1: there on Friday morning and all that kind of thing.

202
00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,000
Speaker 1: I feel like a good marriage essentially is just a

203
00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:07,319
Speaker 1: very long logistics meeting.

204
00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,760
Speaker 2: Well, and that's I want to be careful right about

205
00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,760
Speaker 2: that perspective. And I think you know one of the

206
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,080
Speaker 2: things that you know comes out in the book is

207
00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,480
Speaker 2: I spoke to a woman here in Virginia in her

208
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,960
Speaker 2: fifties and she's got a bunch of friends have gotten divorced,

209
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 2: and one of the things that she said about them

210
00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,040
Speaker 2: was that, you know, they kind of stuck through all

211
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,679
Speaker 2: the kids, you know journey, and then once the kids

212
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:30,600
Speaker 2: hit eighteen, they'd be able to kind of look around

213
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,080
Speaker 2: and they're like, you know what, there's not much left

214
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,720
Speaker 2: here in my marriage. I've been so focused on the kids.

215
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,760
Speaker 2: My husband's kind of focused on his work and his hobbies,

216
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,280
Speaker 2: and I'm out of here. So I want to be

217
00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,839
Speaker 2: careful just to sort of stress that, yes, marriage is

218
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,040
Speaker 2: about more than romance. But I think neglecting that romantic

219
00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,960
Speaker 2: and emotional connection is also very bad idea. And so

220
00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,280
Speaker 2: what we see in the research for this book is

221
00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,720
Speaker 2: that couples of a regular date night, for instance, justin

222
00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:00,680
Speaker 2: are about twenty percentage points more likely to be happily

223
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:04,800
Speaker 2: married compared to those who are not. And it's one

224
00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,959
Speaker 2: of the best predictors of kind of a happy marriage

225
00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 2: as we kind of run regressions and data and all

226
00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,480
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. So what I'm saying here is

227
00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,760
Speaker 2: have a fully orbed vision of what marriage is. Understand

228
00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:16,480
Speaker 2: it's more than feelings. It's one of the romans, but

229
00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,400
Speaker 2: don't neglect to kind of keep cultivating that romance, and

230
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,160
Speaker 2: I recommend, you know, trying to do a date night

231
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,800
Speaker 2: once a week or at least once every two weeks

232
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:25,800
Speaker 2: to kind of keep that spark alive and kind of

233
00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,480
Speaker 2: keep that emotional connection strong.

234
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,480
Speaker 1: Okay, let's do a lightning round. If you were to

235
00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,800
Speaker 1: highlight the benefits to couples from being married versus being

236
00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:35,960
Speaker 1: a single or co happening. What does the data point

237
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:36,640
Speaker 1: too well?

238
00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:38,120
Speaker 2: I think one of the key things that we see

239
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,120
Speaker 2: is that knowledge are more stability, but there's also a

240
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,840
Speaker 2: better financial picture. And so one thing we see is

241
00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,840
Speaker 2: that married men and women have about ten times the

242
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,240
Speaker 2: assets as they're never married peers as they hit their fifties.

243
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,280
Speaker 2: And that's in part because married folks, as compared to

244
00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,880
Speaker 2: crabbeting folks, are much more likely to be prudential on

245
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 2: how they're spending money, more likely to invest money and

246
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,600
Speaker 2: say things you know, stocks and bonds, shared house, et cetera,

247
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,920
Speaker 2: whereas cobbiting couples and single people are more likely just

248
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,440
Speaker 2: to spend money that comes into, you know, into their accounts.

249
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,880
Speaker 2: That's that's one example of the financial benefits that flow

250
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:14,559
Speaker 2: from marriage.

251
00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,200
Speaker 1: Ten times is a big number. What are the benefits

252
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,679
Speaker 1: to men from being married.

253
00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,680
Speaker 2: Interesting question, because when I talk about marriage today would

254
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,480
Speaker 2: often get britically from younger men and from teenage boys.

255
00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,000
Speaker 2: Is kind of like that look in their eyes, and

256
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:29,640
Speaker 2: I'll ask them if you've heard of Andrew Tait and

257
00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,640
Speaker 2: they'll nod, and they've heard Andrew Tait and his critique

258
00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,920
Speaker 2: of marriage, and his basic point is that today marriage

259
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,160
Speaker 2: is a bad bet because most marriages end in divorce,

260
00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:42,960
Speaker 2: and so it's better for men to just focus on

261
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,400
Speaker 2: getting rich, getting strong, getting physically fit, and using but

262
00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,920
Speaker 2: not investing in women. So the response that I make

263
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,400
Speaker 2: to that kind of argument is that actually, today most

264
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,600
Speaker 2: marriages go the distance, and there are ways you can

265
00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,440
Speaker 2: kind of minimize risk of divorces guys. So being game, fleeing,

266
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,360
Speaker 2: played full time lowers risk of divorce. Going to church

267
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,520
Speaker 2: with your wife big factor in reducing your risk of divorce,

268
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,560
Speaker 2: regular date nights, you know, cultivating that romance also a

269
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,520
Speaker 2: way to reduce your risk of divorce. And so men

270
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,320
Speaker 2: who get and stay married are the happiest men out

271
00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,640
Speaker 2: there that we see. You know, there's no question, for instance,

272
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,520
Speaker 2: that married men with kids especially are about three times

273
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 2: as likely to be very happy with their lives. Compared

274
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,640
Speaker 2: to unmarried men in America, they report more meeting their lives,

275
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,079
Speaker 2: a lot less loneliness, and they're much much less likely

276
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,600
Speaker 2: to succumber what we call deaths of despair justin here

277
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,320
Speaker 2: in this country, and that's either to suicide directly or

278
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,000
Speaker 2: death related to alcohol or drugs. And unfortunately have seen

279
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,320
Speaker 2: a big spike in recent years in these deaths of

280
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:52,000
Speaker 2: his parents focused among men who are either never married

281
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,560
Speaker 2: or who are divorced. So the point I make is

282
00:13:55,559 --> 00:14:00,719
Speaker 2: that for most guys, marriage and fatherhood are hathways to

283
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,719
Speaker 2: more prosperity and greater happiness.

284
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,839
Speaker 1: It sounds like it's an antidote to loneliness as well,

285
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 1: so long as the relationship is healthy.

286
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,040
Speaker 2: Of course, exactly, that's right.

287
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,160
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the benefits to women. This is an

288
00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,520
Speaker 1: area where feminists will quite often argue against marriage and

289
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,880
Speaker 1: say this is a ball and chain for a woman.

290
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,760
Speaker 1: They essentially sign up to be the mother of their

291
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,560
Speaker 1: children as well as the mother of the man that

292
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,760
Speaker 1: they've married. They become the cook and the cleaner and

293
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 1: all that kind of thing. What does research show in

294
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,360
Speaker 1: terms of marital benefits for females.

295
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we have seen a lot of articles and

296
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,480
Speaker 2: this is like the New York Times, you know, New

297
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,520
Speaker 2: York magazine that are kind of bringing marriage especially sort

298
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,800
Speaker 2: of arguing that it's a bad deal for women. And

299
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,760
Speaker 2: we're now seeing, at least in the United States, kind

300
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,560
Speaker 2: of polling that tells us that both men and especially women,

301
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:51,080
Speaker 2: especially younger women, think that both marriage and motherhood are

302
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,640
Speaker 2: not pathways towards happiness. And yet again, when you look

303
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,280
Speaker 2: at the data, what you see is that married moms,

304
00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,880
Speaker 2: among them eighteen fifty five demographic, are the happiest women,

305
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,560
Speaker 2: particularly thirty five to fifty five demographic, you know, as

306
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,920
Speaker 2: they've gotten the kids out out of diapersion the like,

307
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,080
Speaker 2: so as difficult, you know, and as challenging and a

308
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 2: sort of hair pulling kids can be for us, especially,

309
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,000
Speaker 2: I think for moms oftentimes, the meaning the sense of

310
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,240
Speaker 2: joy that comes from, you know, watching a child take

311
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,040
Speaker 2: a first step, when the spelling be at school, score

312
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,240
Speaker 2: a goal on the soccer field, attend church, you know,

313
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,720
Speaker 2: with your with your kids, you know, first commedian whatever

314
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,200
Speaker 2: it might be. These, you know things are so meaningful

315
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,040
Speaker 2: for women. And so we see that women are married

316
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 2: with kids, are you know about twice as likely to

317
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,200
Speaker 2: be very happy with their lives compared to their unmarried

318
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,440
Speaker 2: female peers, and so a lot of I think the

319
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,520
Speaker 2: press around marriage and mother is kind of not telling

320
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,800
Speaker 2: the truth about the way in which, because we are

321
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 2: hardwired to connect, having the benefit of a spouse and

322
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,080
Speaker 2: kids ends up being good not just for guys, but

323
00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:57,000
Speaker 2: also for gals.

324
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,760
Speaker 1: Bret Wilcox is the author of Get Married, Why Americans

325
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 1: mustify the elites, forward, strong families, and save civilization. Brad

326
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,040
Speaker 1: has been an absolute delight to talk with you about

327
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,480
Speaker 1: your provocative book, the ideas and data that you've shared there,

328
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,400
Speaker 1: and the insights that can help us to have stronger communities,

329
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,560
Speaker 1: stronger families, and higher well being. Thanks much for joining

330
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:20,720
Speaker 1: me on the Happy Families Podcast.

331
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,200
Speaker 2: Thanks Justin, a pleasure to be with you here today.

332
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,240
Speaker 1: The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin Roland from

333
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For more

334
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,120
Speaker 1: information about how you can make your family happier, please

335
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,800
Speaker 1: visit Happy families dot com dot au, and in our

336
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,440
Speaker 1: show notes we will link to Get Married by Brad

337
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,960
Speaker 1: Wilcox so that we can help you to build your

338
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 1: relationship stronger