1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: This is gem Nation with Jonesy. 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 2: I think we all became obsessed with the cult of 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 2: Vogue's editor in chief and a wind tour after the 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 2: film The Devil Wears Prata, which was famously based on 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 2: her glamorous, massively influential, absolutely terrifying. Well, someone who's had 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 2: a front row seat into her life is Amy O'Dell. 7 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: She's written a brilliant book called Anna, and we discover 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 2: there's a lot more to the icon behind the dark 9 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: glasses than just that sharp haircut. Hello, Amy, how are you? 10 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: I am great? Thank you so much for having me. 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: Was this a terrifying project? I know you've talked to 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 2: Anna herself, her close friends, some collaborators. Was it scary? 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: Does she terrify you? 14 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: Is she to be honest with you, Yes, she did 15 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: scare me a bit at the beginning of the process, 16 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: but you kind of have to get over it. And 17 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: I spent three years on this book. I interviewed more 18 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: than two hundred and fifty people, including Anna's closest friends 19 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: and colleagues, people who never spoke on the record about 20 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: her before, and she sanctioned many of those people to 21 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: talk to me. So it became a lot less scary 22 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: over time. 23 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 2: It's interesting looking at the photos of her in the 24 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 2: book to see her smiling, because I have this image 25 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 2: of her as just this terrifying, closed mouth woman. 26 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: Well, she is kind of an intimidating figure. I mean, look, 27 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: there are some aspects of the Devil Wars product movie 28 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: that are true to life. Like when you see Miranda 29 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: Priestley arrive at the office and everyone sort of freaks 30 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 1: out and puts on their heels and tries to make 31 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: everything perfect for her. That is real. When Anna Winter 32 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 1: walks the halls of Conde Nast, the parent company of 33 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: Vogue magazine, people press themselves up against the wall. They 34 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: feel afraid of her. But a lot of people tell me, 35 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: you know what she actually responds to better than anything 36 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: is people who just treat her like a regular person. 37 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: And it's funny. One of her employees, one of her 38 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: ex employees, told me that she was so nervous to 39 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: talk to Anna, but then she just thought to herself, 40 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: you know what, this woman is a grandmother. I'm just 41 00:01:58,520 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: going to walk in her office. I'm going to ask 42 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: my question. And it was fine, and they had a 43 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: great relationship because she wasn't afraid to talk to her 44 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: like that. 45 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 3: How does she feel about the portrayal of Meryl Streep 46 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 3: of her? Did she enloighten you about that? 47 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 1: So what her friends told me is that she really 48 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: did not care about The Devil Wears Praduct. First, it 49 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: was a novel by one of her former assistants, who 50 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: claimed that it wasn't based on her, although it seems 51 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,119 Speaker 1: quite obvious that it was, and she didn't care. When 52 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: she found out about the book, she said, I can't 53 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: remember who that girl is. 54 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: O cutting, cutting, I love some of the stuff. Is 55 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: it true that Anna's so wrinkle of verse she once 56 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: had the fat under a baby's chine air brushed on 57 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 2: the pages of the magazine? 58 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: It is true. Yes, everything I've reported in the book, 59 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: including that what I would say is the very pricing anecdote. Yes, 60 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: that is true. Every image in Vogue is retouched. The 61 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: thing that you have to remember about Anna is that 62 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: she's a fashion editor. Fashion editors make pictures, make beautiful pictures, 63 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: and they tell stories with pictures. So when Anna is 64 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,959 Speaker 1: editing Vogue, she's editing for pictures. And as I report 65 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: in the book, she will kill whole stories just because 66 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 1: she doesn't like the pictures. You could write the greatest 67 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: story that has been filed to the magazine in the 68 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: last ten years. And if the pictures come back in 69 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: a way that she doesn't like, she could kill them. 70 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: We've also seen that work against her, where she ran 71 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: a profile of the Syrian First Lady, a puff piece, 72 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: a very positive piece of the Syrian First Lady, mentioning 73 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: none of the atrocities that the regime was committing. And 74 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: she did that because she loved the photo. She loved 75 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: the portrait of the Syrian First Lady that she ran 76 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: with the story. 77 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: Wow, and I love this too, that Oprah lost ten 78 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: kilograms to appear on the front page of Vogue because 79 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: Anna told. 80 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: It to Yes, that is true, that is true, and 81 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: this was something it's so surprising today, but this is 82 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: something that at the time that had happened, Anna openly 83 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: spoke about. She openly spoke about this in the press. 84 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: But you know, for so long, larger bodies really did 85 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: not sync with her vision of Vogue magazine. And when 86 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: I was interviewing people for this book, it was around 87 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: the time that the cover of Vogue featuring Lizzo came 88 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: out and a number of them said, you know, that 89 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: cover with Lizzo is an amazing cover, and it just 90 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: never would have happened, you know, fifteen years ago when 91 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: I was working for Anna. You know, when you think 92 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: about Anna specifically, I think it's very interesting that she 93 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: has succeeded in a very male dominated corporate ecosystem, and 94 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: I think that this is really her strength, is that 95 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: she's very good. You know, people wonder why is Anna 96 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: Winter still in her job. She's been there for it'll 97 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: be thirty four years this summer. That's the second longest 98 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: tenure actually of a Vogue editor, but it's a very 99 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: long time for any executive. I mean, think about Jeff Bezos. 100 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: He left Amazon after twenty seven years. Anna had Vogue 101 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: thirty four. But she has succeeded, I think because she 102 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: has been so good at navigating a corporate environment and 103 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: a very male dominated an environment over the vast majority 104 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: of that tenure. 105 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 3: And she certainly eats like a man. She has that 106 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 3: big steak in caprizy salad, just meat and green leave. 107 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: This is a picture of her go to lunch steak 108 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 2: Caprizi salad, no tomato, just steak and two slabs of cheese, 109 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: and people were concerned for her intestinal tract. 110 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: You know, that is a single sentence in the book, 111 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: and I did not expect that to become the viral 112 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: story that it became, to be honest with you, yes, 113 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: but Anna is known to enjoy red meat, and she's 114 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 1: known to enjoy it rare, and she has actually long 115 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: adhered to a diet outlined in a book that came 116 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: out in the sixties, which basically prescribed a low carb diet. 117 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: I think it's called a drinking Man's diet, and it 118 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: says the only rule to this diet is to consume 119 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: a certain number of carbohydrates per day. Is adhered to that. 120 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: Her close friend also told me that she does not 121 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: like vegetables. She has this sprawling, beautiful estate out in 122 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: Mastak on Long Island in New York, and her gardener, 123 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: Miranda Brooks, who is quite well known and landscape design 124 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: said you should plant a vegetable patch, and Anna won't 125 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: do it. 126 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 3: Rather, she's got all the space but no vegetable. I 127 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 3: love it. That's exactly well. You know, she likes red 128 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 3: meat but not wrinkles on babies, and that's what makes 129 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 3: it great inside. Thank you, Anna. The book on sale 130 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 3: now in all good bookstores at and amyodell dot com. 131 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 3: By the way, you can check that out, Amy O'Dell, 132 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 3: thank you for joining us. 133 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: Thank you so much.