1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: It's the Happy Family's podcast. 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just 3 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 2: once answers. 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: Mew so Kylie. I read recently that forty percent, forty 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:22,640 Speaker 1: percent of the world's population uses a meta platform Facebook, Instagram, 6 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: WhatsApp every single day, about three about three point twenty 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: five billion people daily on meta I. 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 3: Actually thought that it would have been a higher number. 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 3: To be honest, Well who doesn't. 10 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but we're talking globally across the entire planet, 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: forty percent of the world's population three point twenty five 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: billion people daily. In today's podcast, Facebook is not your friend, 13 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: and neither is TikTok or Instagram, and it's especially not 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: your kid's friend. If you or your children are collateral 15 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: damage in their quest to dominate the world and maximize 16 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: shareholder value by increasing their market capitalization as much as possible, 17 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: they're fine with that. That's the story today. Today, I 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: want to tell you how we know that and what 19 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: we can do about it, and point you to my website, 20 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: Unplugged Childhood dot org to help you to protect your kids, 21 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: not even going to try and sell you something. 22 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 3: Raviiya used to work for Facebook. He was high up 23 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 3: almost at the top Meta research manager. Now he's working 24 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 3: at the usc Nearly Center for Leadership and Ethical Decision Making. 25 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: Imagine going from Facebook to a center that's about leadership 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: and ethical decision I love you. 27 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 3: You're saying like polar opposites. RAVI has been talking with 28 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 3: Jonathan Hate a lot lately, sharing his experiences with Meta 29 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 3: and what their research found. And today we're going to 30 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: unpack the latest post at after Babel Hates Substack. 31 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: I love this substack. I'm not huge on reading blogs anymore, 32 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: but Jonathan Hates substack is incredible. Go there, subscribe, get 33 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: the emails once a week or once a fortnite, or 34 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: whenever a post lands it well, it would just bring 35 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: you across so much of what's going on when it 36 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: comes to your children's online safety. This was compelling. Let 37 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: me quote him just here. He said in the four 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: years I worked there, speaking of Meta, I helped produce 39 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: dozens of internal reports on the company's news feed algorithms. 40 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: Despite finding evidence that optimizing for engagement often increases exposure 41 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 1: to harassment, misinformation, and graphic content, Facebook continued to prioritize 42 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: engagement over content quality as part of an effort to 43 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: beat rivals like TikTok. 44 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 3: He's not the first person to speak out. 45 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: Now, There's been a number of whistleblowers in. 46 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 3: Relation to their experiences working with these platforms, and I 47 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 3: just find it staggering that you can be a part 48 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 3: of something and literally have the data in your face 49 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 3: on a day to day basis and not do anything 50 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 3: about it. 51 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 1: Well, he tried to let me continue with Ravia's words. 52 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: He says that he's working with Minnesota lawmakers too, and again, 53 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: I direct quote here focus on limiting experiences online that 54 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: present the most harm to children and teens. Unwanted contact, 55 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 1: especially from strangers, is chief among them. Social media platforms 56 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: make it easy for bad actors to contact people they 57 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: don't know, at scale and without accountability. Now, I'm going 58 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: to stop my quote there. I just I want to 59 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: read that again and just emphasize it's so easy to 60 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: read the words and not think about the impact of this. 61 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: Social media platforms make it easy for bad actors, in 62 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: other words, pedophiles, people who want to take advantage of 63 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: our children to contact people they don't know at scale 64 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: and without accountability. It's frightening. It's frightening. He goes on 65 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: to say this and again direct quote one in eight, 66 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: and this is from internal data at Meta one in 67 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: eight Instagram users under sixteen experiences unwanted sexual advances on 68 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: the platform. Earlier this year, the FBI issued a public 69 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: safety alert for at least twelve and a half thousand 70 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: miners were the victims of sextortion on a range of 71 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: social media sites, messaging platforms, and video games, motivated by 72 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: sexual gratification or money, individual bad actors and organized groups. 73 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: And this is the critical thing here. We've got organized 74 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: crime syndicates operating on these platforms. Organized groups targeted young 75 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: people co worse than me to creating and sharing explicit 76 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: images and threatened to make the images public if the 77 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: miners didn't continue producing explicit content or pay them a fee. 78 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: And if that's not gut churning and sickening enough, let 79 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: me just actually, why don't you read the next bok 80 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: because I've been reading a lot. 81 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 3: In a recent report I helped write, Minnesota Attorney General 82 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 3: Keith Illison spotlighted harrowing testimonies received by his office. One 83 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 3: miner reported that they received sexually explicit photos from men 84 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 3: who added account. I did not need to add them 85 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 3: back to see the image they had sent me. Another 86 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 3: teen blocked people bullying him on Snapchat, yet they found 87 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 3: ways to add me to group chats and continued the harassment. 88 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: Okay, so the key thing here is it's not just 89 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: about meta, and I've been clear about that all the way. 90 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that meta they're at the bottom 91 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: of the barrel, but there are a couple of other 92 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: organizations with leadership who are right right alongside them, just 93 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: sliding along the bottom of that icky, steamy, disgusting, filthy barrel. 94 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: Last thing, last thing that ravi Aya said that I 95 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: want to emphasize. He said this, in one leaked study, 96 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: nearly a fifth of teens, so that's twenty percent. Nearly 97 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: a fifth of teens saw sexually explicit content at least 98 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: once a week on Instagram. AI recommendation systems optimized for clicks, likes, 99 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: and time engaged rather than the quality of content. And 100 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: as we founded Facebook, sometimes the most toxic content attracts 101 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: the strongest responses, fueling the algorithms that show it to 102 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: more people. So this is the thing. We've got evidence 103 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: from whistleblowers, past employees, leaked documents that point to Mata 104 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: and other executives at other companies as well. But I'm 105 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: just going to pick on metaphor this one who are 106 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: intentionally not doing what they promise us they will do 107 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: protect our kids. It's just it's a lie when they 108 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: say that they'll do it. It's mendacious, it's completely duplicitous. 109 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: Facebook is not your friends. The stories that are abundant 110 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: around this idea that they send their kids to schools 111 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: where there's no devices and they don't use the platforms 112 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: with their kids and in their families. But all these 113 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: techno elites are literally responsible for devastation and misery in 114 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: our young people. They think promises that they're going to 115 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: do it better. They tell politicians not to legislate and 116 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: that they'll self govern and set up systems, and it 117 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: keeps on getting worse. 118 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 3: But it's not just our kids, it's adults too. It's 119 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 3: so hard to put your phone down, I know. And 120 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 3: the challenge is that everything happens there now. The amount 121 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 3: of times we've kind of suggested we're just going to 122 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 3: leave our phone behind, yes, and then we get out 123 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 3: and realize that we needed it for someone, or we 124 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 3: get home and the kids have needed us and we 125 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 3: haven't had our phones and haven't been our contact us exactly, 126 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 3: you know, so it's really challenging. I feel like these 127 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: devices have become what once was the back fence or 128 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 3: the town square, the meeting place, and it's just so convenient. 129 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: I'm so I love that you said the back fence. 130 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: I remember as a kid, I'm talking when I was 131 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: eight or nine, so early eighties, mid eighties, my grandma, 132 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: my Nata Barnt, used to she'd go and hang up 133 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: the washing on the hills hoist in the backyard on 134 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: that quarter acre block in Auburn, and then she talked 135 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: to Joyce over the back fence, like literally they'd stand 136 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: there leaning against the fence and have a chin wag 137 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: for half now. And they had the time to do 138 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: that back then as well. 139 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 3: I just yeah, I love it. 140 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: But ultimately, what you're describing is it comes down to 141 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: this thing called persuasive design, really insanely intensely smart design, 142 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: and it points to the fact that there is good 143 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 1: that's associated with them. Okay, you talk about this back 144 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: fence or this meeting place or this town square or 145 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: whatever it was that you said. It highlights that we 146 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: can use these platforms and these devices in really pro social, optimal, 147 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: positive ways. But our kids and we are predominantly not 148 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: using them in those ways. Why because of the algorithm. 149 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: And in fact, now that I say that, I want 150 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: to share one more thing that Ravia said when he 151 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: was talking about legislation that he's working on in Minnesota. 152 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: He said that while age changes would probably be really helpful, 153 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: in other words, keep kids off social media until they're older, 154 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: and legislator around that, he says the best legislation will 155 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: be about algorithms. I fell in love. I just love 156 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: what he said here. He said laws must quote, we've 157 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: got to focus on regulating the algorithmic design, not just 158 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: moderating the content. And his why. He says strangers are 159 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: able to contact miners online because social media companies choose 160 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: to let them. Regulating what the stranger says is content moderation. 161 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: Stopping that stranger from contacting a minor is a design choice. 162 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: It's easy to stop harassment at the source rather than 163 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: by trying to filter all the messages people exchange. Design 164 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: approaches can also reduce free speech concerns, as they're not 165 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: based on content itself that sentence, because social media companies 166 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: choose to let them. 167 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's devastating on every level. 168 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: And that's why I wanted to have this conversation. That's 169 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: why I wanted to emphasize Facebook, it's not your friend, 170 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: neither any of the social media companies. They're interested in 171 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: shareholder value, they're interested in market capitalization, they're interested in 172 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: stock returns. That is it, after the break, what European 173 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: Parliament is trying to do about this. So this podcast 174 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: episode is called hurting Kids on Purpose the EVI it 175 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:06,239 Speaker 1: suggests that that's exactly what's going on. And Kylie European policymakers, 176 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: I found this is such a great document. European policymakers 177 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: are really concerned about how children interact with the digital world, 178 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: and they've released the report emphasizing the importance of online safety. 179 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: Obviously in digital literacy, we know this already for young people, 180 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: but in the report they stress the need to protect 181 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 1: children from online exploitation and manipulation like targeted advertising and 182 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: data misuse. And they've made they've caught it a motion 183 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: for a European Parliament Resolution on Addictive Design of Online Services. 184 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: So what they're basically saying is, yes, this is about 185 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: consumer protection, and yes this is about targeted advertising and 186 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: data misuse. But fundamentally, what they want to do is 187 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: they want to shut down the harmful elements of persuasive design. 188 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: Familiar with persuasive design? Do you another term? No at all. 189 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 3: I think I'm like most parents. I've never heard those 190 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 3: words put together. I can make an assumption as to 191 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 3: what you're talking about, but I've never heard so. 192 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: Persuasive design is literally what RAVII is talking about, where 193 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: he says the social media companies have designed their technology 194 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: in such a way that certain things happen. So the 195 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: persuasive element is how do we keep people's attention longer? Yep, 196 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: everything that they've done is designed that way. I'm going 197 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: to mention a handful of persuasive design items, and I'm 198 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: going to see if you can explain them to me 199 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: if you can. So, here are some persuasive design features 200 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,239 Speaker 1: for maximizing user attention. Number one auto play. 201 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, so it just keeps playing. Yeah, Like as you scroll, 202 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 3: it's playing. 203 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: Okay, And that is set up so that as you 204 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: scroll and it's already playing, it hooks you immediately. You 205 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: don't have to make an intentional choice of press play 206 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: that keeps you focused on the screen. That's what TikTok, 207 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: and that's what Instagram, that's what they'll do. Even things 208 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: like YouTube and Netflix or infinite scroll. 209 00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 3: Well, just keep scrolling. 210 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: Stop. 211 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 3: I do remember once upon a time you kind of 212 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 3: got to the end of your feed. 213 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, about fifteen years ago, you could say I'm 214 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: up to date. I actually know what everybody's doing in 215 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: their lives. And now I can switch it off because 216 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: there's nothing new that's happening. 217 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 2: No. 218 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 3: And what's interesting is if I've looked at something earlier 219 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 3: and I want to find it, I just can't find 220 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 3: it again. Like the scroll process just takes way too long. 221 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: Okay, you know what these ones are? Push notifications and badgers. 222 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, you've just got these little notifications that come up 223 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 3: and you push you a little button and say yes 224 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 3: or no or whatever. 225 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: Did you know in the early days, Facebook made them blue, 226 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: nobody clicked on them. They made them red. Everyone thinks, oh, 227 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: this must be important. We associate the color red with importance, 228 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: and it promotes that sense of urgency and the fear 229 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: of missing out, which means that people are going to 230 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: check the app because they've been triggered to look at it, 231 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: because they're concerned they're going to miss out well, and often. 232 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: They're flashing too. They're kind of grabbing your attention and 233 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 3: you just want them to stop. 234 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: Here's another one, and again, this one kind of speaks 235 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: for itself. Personalized recommendations and content feeds. 236 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 3: Yes, I love that little thing at the end that says, 237 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 3: do you want to see more of this? 238 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? 239 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: Like, tell us how we can addict you even more, 240 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: tell us how we can keep you here longer. The 241 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: algorithms literally create content that's tailored to your preferences, which 242 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 1: makes the content feel so deeply and profoundly relevant, and 243 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: it keeps you engaged. Streaks. Can we just talk about 244 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 1: streaks for a second. This is one of your favorites, now, 245 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 1: isn't it. 246 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 3: Well, it's hilarious obviously. I signed up to Snapchat a 247 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 3: handful of months. 248 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: Ago, and on the Happy Families podcast you did comment 249 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: that you think that Snapchat is perhaps your favorite app 250 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 1: of all time. 251 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 3: I think I said that. 252 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you were. I don't think I said that, 253 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 1: but you said you loved it. 254 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 3: I did have lots of fun with the kids. 255 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 2: They downloaded it for me. They showed me all the 256 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 2: filters and can I tell you, I have just had 257 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: an absolute ball and the girls and I have gone 258 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: back and forth with these crazy messages that just make 259 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 2: me laugh. 260 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: Well, welcome to the twenty first century. 261 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 3: So in the beginning, I actually did really enjoy it. 262 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 3: I loved playing with the filters, and it's heaps of 263 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: fun to kind of just have that to and fro 264 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: and the voice changing and all of that kind of stuff. 265 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 3: But there are plenty of things that really frustrated me 266 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: about the platform, and specifically those disappearing messages. I can 267 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 3: see how in the wrong hands these could be devastating. 268 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: This is the persuasive design element though. It keeps you connected, 269 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: it keeps you engaging with the app in these ongoing ways. 270 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: You've got rewards in games, you've got social validation with 271 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: likes and comments and shares and follow accounts. These engagement 272 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: features are persuasively designed variable rewards. I mean it really 273 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: is about dope. Mean it is about the next hit. 274 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: There's a couple of other things as well, the time 275 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: sensitive content. If you don't look at it now, if 276 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: you don't take advantage of it now, you've got disappearing messages, 277 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: and the scarcity in the urgency and just the sound 278 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: effects and the visuals. There are so many other things 279 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: of the frictionalist design, the way that you just you're 280 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: in and you're using it. They've made it so so easy. 281 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: And the whole purpose of this podcast really is for 282 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: me to say one clear thing, they're doing it on purpose. 283 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: They're doing it on purpose, and they're not thinking about you. 284 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: If you've got young kids, and when I say young kids, 285 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: I mean kids under about twelve to fourteen, we really 286 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: do recommend you keep them away completely delay their access 287 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: as long as you can. Visit Unplugged childhood dot org 288 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: for more and sign the pledge. You could have listened 289 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: to our podcast interview last Wednesday with Danny Alachi from 290 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: the Head's Up Alliance learn more about keeping phones out 291 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: of our kids' hands. Just sign the pledge. Let's keep 292 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: our kids away from having a screen based childhood and 293 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: let them have a play based childhood instead. 294 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 3: And as they get older, it's really about making sure 295 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 3: that they've got things happening in their lives that are 296 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 3: incompatible with their phone use. Right, if they're out busy 297 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 3: doing things and using their bodies being active, they can't 298 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 3: hold a phone don't. 299 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: Try try play the drums, play the guitar, play the piano, 300 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: go for a bike ride anything. We're going to link 301 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: to resources in the show notes if you'd like more information. 302 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: We really hope that it's useful in helping you in 303 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: your awareness of the issues and your conversations with kids. 304 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: Bit of a heavy one today, but I think it's 305 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: one that we've just we've got to keep on raising 306 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: awareness about it and talking about it. The Happy Families 307 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from Bridge Media, and 308 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: if you'd like to know more about how your family 309 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: can be happier, especially with stories like that one, sign 310 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: up to our free, super helpful newsletter at happy families 311 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: dot com dot au.