1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: I find as well, Like, you know, it's not necessarily 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: tie myself to the mask, but even things like if 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: what is closest to me in the bed when I 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: wake up is the kindle and at the phone, I'm 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: more likely to read. But if the phone's on top 6 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: of the kindle, you know, I'm more likely to look 7 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: at the phone. But if I can reverse that order, 8 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: you know, it's a bit better. So just a little 9 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: hacks like that. And I think it's good to kind 10 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: of look at every aspect of your life and say, Okay, 11 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: where's something that I can kind of make it easy 12 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: to do the thing that I want to do. 13 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 15 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor amttha Imba. I'm an 16 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventium, and I'm obsessed with 17 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my workday. On today's show, I 18 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: speak to Matt Mullenwig. I feel like Matt is kind 19 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 2: of like Internet Royalty because he's a founding developer of WordPress, 20 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: which is the open source software used by over thirty 21 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 2: one percent of the web. He also founded Automatic, which 22 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: now employs around seven hundred people, and Matt's also been 23 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 2: named one of Business Weeks twenty five most influential people 24 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 2: on the Web. Now, I've found out a lot of 25 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 2: fascinating things about how Matt works during this chat, and 26 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: something I particularly loved hearing about were some of the 27 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: really simple changes he's made to create better habits, like 28 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: how he only has certain types of apps on the 29 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 2: home screen of his phone. So, without further ado over 30 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 2: to Matt to find out how he works. Matt, welcome 31 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 2: to the show. 32 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to be here now. 33 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 2: You're, of course the co founder of WordPress, and I 34 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 2: read recently that you've just ticked over the thirty percent 35 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: mark in that over thirty percent of the world's websites 36 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: built on WordPress. Is that correct? 37 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: That is correct, and we're looking forward to get the 38 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: other seventy percent. 39 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: Amazing, amazing. Look, I'd love to start with what a 40 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: typical morning looks like for you, and also whether there 41 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: is such a thing, Given that I know you travel 42 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: so much, it took. 43 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: A question, So I would say that the thing that 44 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: is my favorite morning routine is probably reading, actually, which 45 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: is nice because I can do that really anywhere I 46 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: am in the world if I can carve out. You know, 47 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: some people wake up early to work out. I like 48 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: to wake up a little bit earlier to get a 49 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: better reading time in because I find that sets my 50 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: brain up in the right space for everything I need 51 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: to get done the rest of the day. 52 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 2: I love that I was actually reading on your blog. 53 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: I was counting that you read I think about thirty 54 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: books last year, and I was going to ask how 55 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: you fit in that reading time. Are there there are 56 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: other times in the day that you also block out 57 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: for reading or is it? Does? It tend to be 58 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: more of a morning ritual at the moment. 59 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: Often when I travel is really good for that. So 60 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: I'm actually reading a lot more this year than last year. 61 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: I'll probably end up with forty five or fifty books 62 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: this year, and it's you know, travel time, it's downtime. 63 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: I've started experimenting a bit with Audible has a sync 64 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: feature with the Kindle, so I can be reading and 65 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: then switch to audio and it's exactly where I left off, 66 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: and then when I switched back to reading, it's exactly 67 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: where the audio stopped. So you can kind of go 68 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: between audio books and written books without without really losing 69 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: any words or anything. 70 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: That's really cool. And when do you find like, what's 71 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: the scenario where you'd use the written book in the 72 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: kindle versus the audio, like what a sort of typical 73 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: scenarios for both. 74 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: Written is definitely my first choice, so that could be 75 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: anytime I can sit waiting. I generally always have my 76 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: kindle on my backpack, so if I'm on sometimes a 77 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: train if it's a longer train ride or subway ride, 78 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: and the audiobooks really great for those in between times, 79 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: so walking you know, when you're going to and from 80 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: the gates or boarding, or if I'm driving, which is 81 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: not too common if I'm traveling, but if I'm in Houston, Texas, 82 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: which is my home, I drive a lot, so those 83 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: are perfect times for for more audio content. 84 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, And when you're when you're reading on the kindle, 85 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 2: do you do you speed read? Do you have techniques 86 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 2: to finish books faster or just like reading like the 87 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: rest of us. 88 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: When I listen, I'm generally listening at one and a 89 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: half to two x speed, so but when I'm reading, 90 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: I feel like I read very normally. I've tried faster 91 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: reading in the past, and I often lose things, and 92 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: a lot of my reading these days is for pleasure. 93 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: So it's you know, novels and other things that are 94 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: don't really lend themselves well the speed read. In fact, 95 00:04:58,200 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: sometimes you want to stretch it out because the wards 96 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: are just so beautiful you want to savor them. 97 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: M Yeah, I love that. I love that, And I 98 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 2: think I read somewhere that you've often got several books 99 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 2: on the go at the same time. Is that still true? 100 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: Yeah? I find that. 101 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes I'll just kind of stuck in a book, 102 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: and so while switching to something else, it can provide 103 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: just a little bit of variety. I'll usually also have 104 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: like a nonfiction and a fiction going at the same time, 105 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: and now, just depending on my mood or what kind 106 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: of modemen, different books on themselves. So like some books 107 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,679 Speaker 1: are very like short stories, like you know that there's 108 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: going to be like a good stopping point, and other 109 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 1: novels like I don't want to start unless I have 110 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: a few hours blocked out because I know I'm going 111 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: to get completely lost in it. 112 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: And getting back to the mornings. Like, how how long 113 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 2: would you typically spend reading, Like doing uninterrupted reading. 114 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: I'll try to get at least a chapter, which is 115 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: you know, again, it depends so much on the format 116 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: of the book, but call it fifteen to twenty minutes. 117 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: Fantastic, Love it, Love it. And I remember hearing that 118 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 2: you were sort of, I guess, experimenting with meditation. I 119 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: believe you're an investor in calm. I'm not sure if 120 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:19,359 Speaker 2: that's still the case. But where's your meditation routine or 121 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: habit at at the moment? 122 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: You know, I like to get that in in the mornings, 123 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: but you know, sometimes I just can't. So otherwise I'll 124 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: sneak it in throughout the rest of the day as 125 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: long as there's not nighttime or I haven't had a 126 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: drink beforehand. I find it can be very effective in 127 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: other parts of the day. Yeah, if it starts to 128 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: get later, I just doze a little. I guess it's good. 129 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: I get into a very relaxed place very quickly. 130 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: Yes, don't dozing. It's very relaxing. Excellent. I wanted to 131 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: ask about, like how you bought off distractions, because you 132 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 2: obviously work with technology for a living, but it can 133 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: also be such a source of distraction, and I'm wondering, 134 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: like when you're trying to get deep, focused work done. 135 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 2: What strategies do you use for tuning out? I guess 136 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: the rest of the world and particularly digital distractions. 137 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 3: Hmmm. 138 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: It's funny because I have friends that are like, oh, 139 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: they're so productive, how do you be so productive? And 140 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: I feel like the most unproductive person. So my approach 141 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: is generally like like a Ulysses, where I tie myself 142 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: to the mast, you know, plug my ears so I 143 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: can't hear the sirens. And yeah, I find that I'm 144 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: way better at planning ahead than actually resisting temptation. So 145 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: if I can just close out the apps, or it's 146 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: not that I'm getting lots of notifications and not looking 147 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 1: at them. Is that I'm just hiding the notifications for 148 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: myself so that my brain doesn't even have to use 149 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: the willpower to not engage with them. 150 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: And I mean, do you have notifications constantly turned off 151 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: or do you kind of switch them on when you 152 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 2: are in I guess more of a responsive mind. 153 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: I have notifications, but they generally don't buzz me, so 154 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: the phone doesn't have any visible or you know, I 155 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: guess taptic feedback whenever something comes in And then on 156 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: the computer, I'll just generally close apps out, you know, 157 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: if it's not relevant, including slacks. Sometimes that's maybe my 158 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: biggest distraction because I kind of keep it on when 159 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: I'm working or having conversations. But of course then anything 160 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: can come in I find as well. Like you know, 161 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily tie myself to the mask, but even 162 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: things like if what is closest to me in the 163 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: bed when I wake up is the kindle and not 164 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: the phone, I'm more likely to read. 165 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 3: But if the. 166 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: Phone's on top of the kindle, you know, I'm more 167 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: likely to look at the phone. But if I can 168 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: reverse that order, you know, it's a bit better. So 169 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: just a little hacks like that. And I think it's 170 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: good to kind of look at every aspect of your 171 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: life and say, Okay, where's something that I can kind 172 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: of make it easy to do the thing that I 173 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: want to do. 174 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: I like that. What other aspects of your life of 175 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: your life have you made those simple changes that have 176 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: led to better habits. 177 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: Oh, if I have sweets or or things like that 178 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: in the house, I don't have them visible, and they're 179 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: generally like in a drawer or kind of buried away 180 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: a little bit. So I can get them if I'm 181 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: entertaining or having a party or really really want it. 182 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: But it's not just something that's like staring at me 183 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: all day saying eat me, eat me. That's you know, 184 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: kind of a common thread that your phone's not buzzing 185 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: saying look at me, look at me. The tasty food 186 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: is not saying eat me, eat me. Just kind of 187 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: out of sight, out of mind. It's not one hundred 188 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: percent true, but is very helpful. 189 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely. And what else do you do to focus? 190 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: So you're closing down apps that you're not using and 191 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: the notifications is switched off, Like, is there anything else 192 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: that you found to be effective to stay focused? 193 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 3: Going offline? It's really great. You know. 194 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: I do this unintentionally sometimes on airplanes, but then occasionally 195 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: at home I'll actually just turn off the network, the 196 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: Wi Fi or the Ethernet and like literally unplugging it 197 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: and then just forcing myself to look at all the 198 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: things that are there in front of me, so start 199 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: closing down more tabs than I open, or looking at 200 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: those files that have been on my desktop for several 201 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: months and saying, okay, what's going to be the way 202 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: to do that? Kind of carving out that time, even 203 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: if it's unintentional, just taking really savoring whatever is available 204 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 1: to at the moment, I find very helpful. M. 205 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: And do you still have a playlist to help kind 206 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: of get into flow that you listen to? 207 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 1: So I have a few, kind of I guess at 208 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: this point they're like deep house focused playlists that are 209 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: just standard ones in title and Spotify that'll go too 210 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: because there's no words or very few words. 211 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 3: They have kind of a nice beat behind it. 212 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: But if I really need to get in the zone, 213 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: my general thing is just picking a single song and 214 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: having that on repeat. And that can be really anything. 215 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: So it can be pip hop, it can be jazz, 216 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: it can be really whatever, but just having that on 217 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: repeat for a while, and it just has to be 218 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: a song I like and then something often that I 219 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: really like, and so it's pleasurable to have it there, 220 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: but your mind kind of backgrounds it after the first 221 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: or second listen. So I've just found that to be 222 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: a really effective technique. 223 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: And do you have any songs that you're going to 224 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: a lot at the moment? M. 225 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 3: You know, a recent one is this new Drake's Son 226 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 3: nice for what? 227 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: Ah? Yeah, it's a it's just so fun and has 228 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: some kind of natural breaks in it where like the 229 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: kind of style goes between things and it just has 230 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: that kind of great four flowing beat in the way 231 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: they do the Lauren Hills sample and just lovely. 232 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: I want to move on to looking at how you 233 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: decide or how you kind of decide on your priorities. 234 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: Could would I would imagine like in what you do 235 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 2: and with your profile, you're probably getting approached with different 236 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 2: opportunities left right and center, and I'm curious as to 237 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: how you decide what do you say yes to and 238 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 2: what do you say no to? 239 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: You know, it gets easier actually because the things that 240 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 1: I am quite keen to say yes on are growing 241 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: over time. You know, the company is growing when now 242 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: over seven hundred and fifty people. You know, your group 243 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: of family and friends, people who you love very much. 244 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: You really want to be there for them, and you 245 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: appreciate that time more as you get older, So that 246 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: kind of naturally crowds out a lot of other things. 247 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: And in terms of the other yes is probably my 248 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: biggest weakness is saying yes to someplace that I want 249 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: to go. So it's an events or I know some 250 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: people who I want to see will be there, or 251 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: it's a place that I want to go because I 252 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 1: haven't been before, and then as it approaches sometimes I'm like, Ah, 253 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: why did I sign up for this? That's probably my 254 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: biggest weakness. We've ran into each other at an event, 255 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: didn't we? 256 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 3: Oh? 257 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: We did it Ted that's riding Vancouver. 258 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: That's a good example of one that ahead of time 259 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: and they very smartly sell you. The ticket's like a 260 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: year ahead of time. This year, I actually didn't want 261 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: to go, but I had purchased a ticket almost a 262 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: full year before, and it's also quite pricey, so I 263 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: felt very obligated to go. So this year I've been 264 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: trying to avoid that by actually not purchasing a ticket 265 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: and probably will not attend next year, not because it 266 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: wasn't wonderful and I got to meet awesome people like yourself, 267 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: but just because it was a lot of time out 268 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: of it. So you know, what I try to avoid 269 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 1: is whatever I'm doing, just try to be fully there 270 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: and really, what's a good word for it. I try 271 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: to get the most out of whatever you're doing. I 272 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: do it with vim and vigor. So if I'm at 273 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: the conference, or if I'm going to go to a conference, 274 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: like I don't check my email during that, Like I 275 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: really try to be present and like get the most 276 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: out of that conference. And if doing so, I find 277 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: myself very bored or disengaged, maybe that's a good reason 278 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: to not go versus agreeing to things and then you know, 279 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 1: being on calls or emails or otherwise distracted the whole 280 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: time because that I'd rather do be honest at home. 281 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: Would you ever just cut your losses at one of 282 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: these events that you've said yes to because you thought 283 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: it would be a good idea in the lead up, 284 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: and then you get there and you're finding that there's 285 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 2: no value. Would you ever just cut your losses and 286 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 2: go early? Or once you're there, you're committed. 287 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: Now that I'm terrible at So I'll finish bad movies, 288 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: I'll finish bad books. 289 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 3: I try to make the best of it. But yeah, 290 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 3: I'm not good at. 291 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 2: Leaving it's interesting. 292 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: So that's why I have to be careful what I start. 293 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: Like I would say TV series are a good example 294 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: of this, Like, like I know that starting a TV 295 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: series is like a big commitment because you're signing up 296 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: for tens of hours of things that like are kind 297 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: of tugging at the back of your brain, being like, 298 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: what happened to so and so. So I'm very very 299 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: very discerning. I'm starting to I'll watch. That's why I 300 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: prefer even shorter things on Netflix, like you know, sure 301 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: their documentaries which tend to be like an hour and 302 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: a half, or or comedy specials which are usually an hour. 303 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: That's actually amazing. When just came out of Australia, you 304 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: might have heard of brag Hannah Gadsby called the. 305 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 2: Net Oh it's brilliant. I saw that live actually the 306 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: Comedy Festival a couple of years ago. Yeah, wow, wow. 307 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 3: I can't imagine. 308 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: It's interesting what you say about how you like, once 309 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: you start, it's it's hard to stop. How how do 310 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 2: you apply that to work? Because I imagine so much 311 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 2: of what you do for automatic and WordPress is starting 312 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 2: something and you know, kind of being in that experimentation mode, 313 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 2: but then inevitably some experiments fail. So so how do 314 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 2: I guess do you do? I imagine you must be 315 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 2: much better at it with work in terms of starting 316 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: something and then abandoning it versus TV series. 317 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: Hmmm, I'll say it's actually a weakness at automatic as well. 318 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: Probably many of my colleagues would agree with you. It's 319 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: something that I have an eye on now is that 320 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: the good news is for projects, especially software, it's typically 321 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: measured in weeks or months, not just like an hour 322 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: or two. 323 00:16:58,040 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 3: Or there's something repetitive. 324 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: So one thing that I've actually been working a lot 325 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 1: this year is allowing myself and other people to say, 326 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: you know, opt out of a meeting for example, not 327 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: just go into a meeting because it's it's what we 328 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: do every week or every other week or every month, 329 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: but saying hey, is you know, do you feel like 330 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: you got a lot out of this, and if so, 331 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: please come back. If not, it's okay to opt out. 332 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: And just making meetings optional is interesting. And you know, 333 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 1: if you do a good job about having an agenda beforehand, 334 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: people can read it and choose to opt in, or 335 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: of course you can reach out to someone and say, hey, 336 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: I think it's important for you to be part of 337 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: this conversation. But by making it a bit more optional, 338 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,239 Speaker 1: it's a good balance between people not feeling excluded but 339 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: also not you know, wasting time for yourself, for others, 340 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: and then for projects just trying to be more explicit 341 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: at the start with how long we expected to take. 342 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: You know, I can think of an example, you know, 343 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: we're in the middle of one right now, and one 344 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: that just kind of wrapped up, or something that started 345 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: and we thought it was kind of a four or 346 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: five month thing, and actually the worst case ended up 347 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: going closer to eighteen months. And so at many points 348 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: along that path we should have had I think this 349 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: is called the sun cost fallacy, Like we should have said, oh, 350 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: if we had known it would have taken eighteen months 351 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: at the beginning, we wouldn't have done it. So we 352 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: should stop it now, even though that's painful and people 353 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: want to finish it or it always seems right around 354 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: the corner. But for other things we're being a lot 355 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: more suplicit now, like, Okay, we started this because we 356 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: thought it was a three month project. If it were 357 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: a six month project, would we still do it? And 358 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 1: then saying yes or no before you start, And then 359 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: and then if it sweats stretches to six months, you 360 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: can say, Okay, that's still within the parameters or what 361 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: we said it was worth it. But when it starts 362 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: to go beyond that, that's when you say, oh, not 363 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,959 Speaker 1: worth it, and then also that being clear to everyone 364 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: involved so that they know that the deadline really starts 365 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: to become much more of a deadline once it goes 366 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: beyond that place that you wouldn't can do it from scratch. 367 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that approach, and I was curious as 368 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 2: to what you said about meetings as well, and people 369 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: being able to opt out of meetings, and it certainly 370 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: puts the onus on the meeting organizer to make it 371 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,880 Speaker 2: a really good meeting. Have you had many people opt 372 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: out of meetings after I guess giving that permission? 373 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: Oh for sure, and I opped out of a ton, 374 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: So I think that it's it's something that it's not 375 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: necessarily you want to have a culture where it's an 376 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: okay thing to do and doesn't have like other hidden meetings. 377 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: So obviously, if like it's some sort of like passive aggressive, 378 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: I don't like your project or something that would not 379 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: be productive. But if it's really just hey, I'm happy 380 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: to be part of this. I'll read the notes. You know, 381 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: you can stay engaged with that needing to take that 382 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: real time sort of real time interaction, you know, when 383 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: you have a meeting, you need to think of the 384 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: time I multiplied by the number of people there. So 385 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: if you have eight people in a meeting, that's kind 386 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: of a full workday worth of work. It's eight hours, 387 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: even if it's just an hour long meeting. 388 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I want to come back to something 389 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 2: that you mentioned before about how when you are at 390 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 2: an event, you'll be present, you'll switch off email, and 391 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: I wanted to know what is your approach to managing 392 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: your inbox? And I get that you've obviously got Slack 393 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 2: as well, and I imagine that's mostly for internal comms, 394 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: But what's your approach to managing your inbox? 395 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 3: Hmm. 396 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm a great example here because 397 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: my workflow and systems are very kind of bespoken unique 398 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 1: I am. 399 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 3: You know. 400 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: I have two assistants, so for help with scheduling things 401 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 1: or things like that, or sometimes just raising things that 402 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: I might have missed, they're able to jump in. I 403 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: have an email system which actually goes through if you 404 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: can believe it, a WordPress plugin, So when you email me, 405 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: it gets piped through through WordPress. Actually that then does 406 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: like a database look up on the sender. It has 407 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: records of all my sent mail. So if I interact 408 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: with this person recently, and then based on that and 409 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 1: other characteristics or kind of regular expressions I write, the 410 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 1: email might get filtered into several different boxes. Obviously an inbox, 411 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: which is, you know, kind of the easy one, but 412 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: then there could be an unknown box, low priority, high 413 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: priority shopping, you know, all these receipts and things. So 414 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: having a lot of that filtering done automatically means that 415 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: I spend very little time kind of categorizing things or 416 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: filtering things, but it's still pretty neatly organized. I'm not 417 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: an inbox zero person, although the thought of it is 418 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: very appealing to me. Right now, I have, let's see, 419 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty things in the inbox, and so 420 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: that's a combination of maybe some subscriptions or things I 421 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: follow that I really want to read, and then people 422 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: who I really want to reply to or that are 423 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: are kind of important and I. 424 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 3: Check. 425 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: To be honest, I'm not great at email in that 426 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: I probably only work on it every couple of days. 427 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: I might do like little bits of maintenance throughout the 428 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: course of a day, but like really digging in and 429 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: sending replies. Is it best kind of once or twice 430 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: a week. 431 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 2: Wow, does that take discipline or is that easy to 432 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 2: sort of not be in it too much? 433 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: I find an email incredibly easy to ignore too often 434 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: to the detriment of myself and others. 435 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 2: Excellent, And what are your favorite apps or tools or 436 00:22:55,280 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 2: technology for getting more done being more productive? So I'm 437 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 2: loving the sound of how your email is organized. That 438 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: sounds amazing. 439 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: Well, I you know, I think it's worthwhile, especially if 440 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: you have the ability to code or invest in someone 441 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: who does actually invest in like workflow and other things 442 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: like that. So there's a number of areas where I 443 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: feel like my life is significantly easier because there's just 444 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: things that are being automated or coded. I guess my 445 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: go too is we mentioned calm already, and that's kind 446 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: of a great meta investment. And the kindle audible and 447 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: overcast for consuming audio content, either books or podcasts. My 448 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: other go tos, I use both wonderlist and to do list. 449 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: Wonderless for collaborative list and to do this for my 450 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: personal I use simple note a tone which is actually 451 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: an automatic product for keeping notes throughout the days. And 452 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: if I to do something very collaborative, like let's say, 453 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: a person who I work with quite a bit. Will 454 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: often have a shared Google document that will open if 455 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: we're ever having a meeting, and then also so can 456 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: function almost more like a whiteboard or shared notes. We'll 457 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: use it his agenda for our next meeting, and then 458 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: we can just kind of put open items there. So 459 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: if they're reading a me for something around waiting for 460 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: them on something, we'll make sure to mark that down 461 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: with a date so that it can be tracked. Internally, 462 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: we use a ton of WordPress, so that's really how 463 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: we communicate as more WordPress than anything else. And you know, 464 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: just trying to have like the home screen on my 465 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: phone doesn't have anything that's distracting. It's only like good habits. 466 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 2: Like what's some examples of. 467 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: Those, So like instead of Facebook, I'll have Kindle or 468 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,959 Speaker 1: you know, audio apps, run keeper. My kind of bottom 469 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: bar is lift Google mapps to do list and calendar, 470 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: so all things that are are very. 471 00:24:58,960 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 3: Very kind of productive. 472 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: I removed the Google app from there, which I like 473 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: using for searching for things, because when you launch a 474 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: Google app, it also shows you interesting news stories. So 475 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: I just wanted to kind of change my muscle memory 476 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: and move it around. I find that you know, if 477 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: I find myself using something too often or getting to 478 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: it just moving it can sometimes break that pattern. So 479 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: you know my thumb, I'll actually accidentally click on the 480 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: thing I replace it with. Just because you get in 481 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: these patterns. 482 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 2: And. 483 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: By knowing how the patterns work, I think it makes 484 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: it at least more possible to break them. I won't 485 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: say it makes it easier, but it makes it at 486 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: least that you can recognize yourself sometimes in it. 487 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 3: Hmmm. 488 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 2: I like that. I've definitely experimented with what goes in 489 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 2: that bottom vire as well. I heard that you in 490 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 2: terms of keyboard, you don't use a quirty keyboard, which 491 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 2: is the traditional keyboard layerup, but you use a divorac 492 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 2: and know if I pronounced that correctly keyboard, And I'm wondering, 493 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 2: can you explain what that is and and why you 494 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 2: made that movement? Also just how how you made the switch? 495 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 2: How how do you learn a new keyboard system? 496 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: Oh, it's much like learning the type. So all the 497 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: however you learn the type or I find many people 498 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: actually haven't learned the type properly. You can there's tons 499 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: of stuff for free online. I think you know, back 500 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: in the day there were apps like Mavis Beacon Teachers 501 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: typing if you remember that one, Yeah, but you can 502 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: basically including for Divorac learning. You just google and there's 503 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: a bunch of free kind of like online stuff where 504 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: you practice letters. So you do like on Devorak, maybe 505 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: you do an aaaaa ee. You kind of train yourself 506 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: to learn, and it's actually not hard to know multiple ones. 507 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: Just like many people you'll play multiple instruments that might 508 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: be slightly different, like the clarinet and the saxophone. Like 509 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: some of it is, of course the ambushure and the 510 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: other parts of it, but a big part of it's 511 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: the fingering and where you go. And after I would say, 512 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: not even that many hours of dedicated work, you know, 513 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: call it fifteen to twenty five of like deliberate practice, 514 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: you can be easily at a useful typing speed, you know, 515 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: call it forty or fifty words per minute, which is 516 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: what I call like thinking speed. You know, often we're 517 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: not limited by our typing speed, but really like our 518 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: ability to know what to say. 519 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 3: Or what to code. 520 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: And then of course with practice, I can type probably 521 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: up to maybe in the one twenties words permitt but 522 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: I almost never do because again, I don't think that 523 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: quickly generally, and the theory behind the work is it's 524 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,959 Speaker 1: just a more modern keyboard. Laout Quarity was created in 525 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: part to make it so that when you type letters 526 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: that are very frequently occur together, like T and H 527 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: for example, which is the most common letter pair in 528 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: the English language. If those remember the arms that used 529 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: to come out, If those arms are right next to 530 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: each other, they could get stuck on each other and 531 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: jam your typewriter. So quirdy is optimized a lot more 532 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: for having those common pairs further away from each other 533 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: or in arms that would not run into each other. 534 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: This is actually useful for thumb typing, so I don't 535 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: think quirty is bad for mobile, and I actually use 536 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: it for there. But then on desktop you of course 537 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: want to have your your different fingers or different strengths. 538 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: If you're on the home road, it's more efficient than 539 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: if it's in a place where you move your finger 540 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: to and and you can do things like for example, 541 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: T and H in the in the divorak keyboard is 542 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: your right hand middle finger, and then the finger right 543 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: next to your thumb. Is that a ring finger? No, 544 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: I guess it's the index finger, so you could just 545 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: I mean, if you just do that right now, like 546 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: push down your middle finger and then your your index finger. 547 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: It's a very natural movement. And doing one of those 548 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: right after it the other is almost like you might 549 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: tap on a desk if you were just fidgeting. So 550 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: having those most common vows and consonants on the home 551 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: rule and then the most common pair is next to 552 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: each other is very, very useful. And that's the design 553 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: of of work I switched to when I was much 554 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: much younger, because when I was a teenager, I thought, well, 555 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: I'm probably going to type the rest of my life, 556 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: so even if I can become ten percent more efficient, 557 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: that'll be a worthwhile investment. And I have many colleagues 558 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: who've switched in a more modern era, and my only 559 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: advice there is to kind of go cold turkey, So 560 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: really force yourself to use the new layout as much 561 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: as possible, and then put in, if you can, a 562 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: bit of time every day to actually deliberately practice. And 563 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: there's a diminishan marginal return, So thirty minutes to an 564 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: hour day is probably really good, where hours a day 565 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: would be a waste of your time, you know, But 566 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: if you can put in a bit of practice and 567 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: then kind of force yourself to use it the rest 568 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: of the day where you're just kind of, you know, 569 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: painfully slow, but picking it up, you'll be there certainly 570 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: in less than a month. 571 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 3: Hmm. 572 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 2: That's cool, it's encouraging. I'm quite inspired to keep that 573 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 2: in card. 574 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,239 Speaker 1: If you're going to give it a go. By the way, 575 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: there's one that's slightly more efficient. So there's a keyboard 576 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: layout called Colmac. 577 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 2: Ah, Yes, I've heard of that. 578 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 3: Yes, actually has. 579 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: A lot of overlap with Devorak. But Devorak was invented 580 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: kind of prior to World War Two and using some 581 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: great technology at the time. But then you know they 582 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: didn't have computers and such, and so Colemack. So Devorak 583 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: is I'm going to make these numbers up. But let's say, 584 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: way more efficient than Quirity, like much much much better. 585 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: Colemac's maybe five percent more efficient than Devorak. So even 586 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: using their their sort of ancient methods of research and efficiency, 587 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: they got pretty darn close to the ideal. So but 588 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: if you were starting today, I would say go straight 589 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: to Colmac. And these layouts are built into every modern 590 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: computer system. 591 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was. 592 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 2: Gonna ask, and have you ever thought about making the 593 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 2: change to COLMAC. 594 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: Have definitely seriously considered it. Because I'm so fast on 595 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: DEVORAK and there's not that big a difference, I question 596 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: whether it's worth it. So I haven't done it yet, 597 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: but if I had, I do still think about it 598 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: sometimes and I might still do it, so we'll see. 599 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: And for creative work, I think I heard that you 600 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 2: use an analogue notebook, so you move away from the 601 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: keyboard completely. Is that correct. 602 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: I find it really satisfying to cross things off on 603 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: a paper. And also if I am in a meeting, 604 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,959 Speaker 1: even if it's a video call, which is many of 605 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: my one on one meetings, I think for both sides, 606 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: typing can feel very distracting. Certainly if you're in person 607 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: someone's like typing things down, it just feels like they're 608 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: not present. But writing doesn't have that same effect. So 609 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: that's why I take a lot of notes. It's because 610 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: it helps me remember. Occasionally I type them up afterwards 611 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: or might translate them into a computer to do. But yeah, 612 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: just for in the moment, it's great to have paper. 613 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 3: Mm. I like that. I like that, like a. 614 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: Ted for example, they even discourage having your phone out, 615 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: so I would keep a notebook in my pocket the 616 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: whole time. So if I neither write anything down or 617 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: could take a quick note, I could mmmm. 618 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: And so that's interesting. So you'll you'll type up some 619 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: of the notes but not others, Like after Ted, for example, 620 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: what did you do with the notes that you took 621 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 2: from Ted? 622 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: Hm, I'm trying to think. I probably do a quick 623 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: glance over them. Sometimes I write them down just to 624 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: remember them, not to actually look back at them. But 625 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: the act of writing helps me kind of distill a 626 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: little bit, and then other times I'll really go back 627 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: and turn it into some to do. So like for example, 628 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: if let's say you and I were having a one 629 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: on one meeting and you were a direct report of mine, 630 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: so we worked very closely together, I would take written notes, 631 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: and then I would actually post the meeting as one 632 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: of my As you probably tell, I like meetings to 633 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: be will time will spend, So I usually like to 634 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: have a bit of time beforehand to prepare and then 635 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: budget a bit of time afterwards to process everything that 636 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: came out of the meeting and do any follow ups 637 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: or at least track whether's follow up should be. Sometimes 638 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: I'll even use a voice memo for that. So there 639 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 1: was a time a few weeks ago I was really 640 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: kind of back to back in New York and going 641 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: between things very quickly, so I was literally almost running 642 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: between meetings. Not quite, but they were very important meetings, 643 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: so I really want to make sure I captured all 644 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: my thoughts from them. So just as I was walking 645 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: down the street, I did probably like a five or 646 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: eight minute voice memo that was much like things I 647 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: would write down, but we're just you know, kind of 648 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: thoughts and things from the meetings, and actually, you know, 649 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: once it's on your iPhone voice memo, I was able 650 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: to send that to my assistant and she was able 651 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: to type it up, so then that made it easier 652 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: for me to turn it into written follow ups and 653 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: notes for my college that they wanted to share the notes 654 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: from the meetings with m I. 655 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 2: Like that, Yes, very cool. Yeah, I use voice memos 656 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 2: quite a bit myself. I wondered, I want to finish 657 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 2: with a few kind of quick questions to understand what 658 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 2: are you consuming right now? Because I can think it 659 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 2: can be so so hard for the average person to know, 660 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 2: like what are the best and most inspiring and most 661 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 2: interesting sources of information given its it's just all a 662 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 2: little bit overload. So to start with, what, what are 663 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 2: like a couple of podcasts that you're currently loving and consuming. 664 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm going to do a plug on the first one. 665 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 1: There's a podcast called Bundyville that long reads, which is 666 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: an automatic product, did it with MBR and it's a 667 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: really fun narrative awsome the Yeah, I love Farnham Streets. 668 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: And there's a podcast called The Knowledge Project that's from 669 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: the same site. It's probably one of my top sites 670 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,399 Speaker 1: and podcasts in the world. A really thoughtful guy named 671 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: Shane Parris, actually Canadian, but just one of the smartest 672 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: people you've ever met, and really really dives into you know, 673 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett and other people who've been successful 674 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: really over decades versus you know, many of the folks 675 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: if you pick up like a magazine, they're talking about 676 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: who's successful that year. 677 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 3: It's not a longevity to it. 678 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: And so I get far more interested with kind of 679 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,879 Speaker 1: what's happened over decades, and so you find yourself drawn 680 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: to folks like Ben Franklin, Charlie Munger, you know that, 681 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: or firms that have succeeded over a long time, even 682 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: like the Koch Brothers, that you're like, Okay, there's something 683 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: working here that goes beyond you know, even one or 684 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: two business cycles. I love on being with Christa Tippett 685 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: probably one of my top ones. On Margins with Craig Maud. 686 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 1: I listened a lot to Tim Ferriss, of course, he's 687 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: a good friend. And you know, new one that I 688 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: just started that I'm very much enjoying is there's a 689 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: doctor named Peter Attia, and I think his podcast is 690 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: called Drive the Peter Atia Drive, and he is a 691 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: doctor obviously an MD, but also you know, really studies 692 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: wellness and longevity, and so I would call him very 693 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: much on the maybe bleeding edges and a good word 694 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: to use with medical terms, but like the kind of 695 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: the very up to the minute on all of the 696 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 1: latest papers and science and everything like that. And so 697 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: he engages with folks like maybe Ronda Patrick, who are 698 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 1: literally driving the science for what helps you be your 699 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: your healthiest and so that I just find really really fascinating. 700 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,240 Speaker 2: I'm gonna check that one out. That sounds really interesting. 701 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 2: Any newsletters that you that you actually look forward to receiving. 702 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 2: You mentioned you might have a few waiting for you 703 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 2: in your inbox to be read. What are your favorites. 704 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: It's actually a big overlap with the things I just said. 705 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: So Peter Attiya has one, Farnham Street has a Newsleader. 706 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 2: Yes, I get that one. That's great. 707 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: And there's one other that's kind of new for me 708 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: that I'm joining. Craig Mott has one, like it's funny. 709 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,399 Speaker 1: It's almost all the same. If I like them enough 710 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 1: to listen to their podcast, I probably am willing to 711 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: get an email from them. One of the others that's 712 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 1: kind of relatively new, and someone who I'm a huge 713 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: fan of is Kevin Kelly. 714 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 3: He is has a website kk dot org. 715 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: Super against someone who's done interesting things over decades, including 716 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: like being one of the co founders of Wired magazine, 717 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: and you know, walking hundreds of miles through Asia in 718 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: like the sixties and seventies, and like just like way 719 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: before anyone else was on things studying virtual reality in 720 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties. So he has one called a recommendo, 721 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: which is he and two of the folks who are 722 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: also very interesting go through and recommend just a few 723 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 1: things each week that might be a book, it might 724 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: be a thing, it might be a movie or a 725 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: Netflix thing. So I found that to be really high 726 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: signal to noise. 727 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 2: Hm, I recently subscribed to that one, and I must 728 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,959 Speaker 2: say I'm loving that. And finally I'll. 729 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 3: Say one more. 730 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, absolutely. 731 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: It's called the Long Now Foundation, which is actually one 732 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 1: of the places where I've gone to know Kevin Kelly 733 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: through and they do a series of talks. It's a 734 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: foundation literally dedicated to long term thinking, and so you know, 735 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: you can imagine their talks being really great and the 736 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: things they publish on their website being also excellent. 737 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 2: Oh that's cool. That's cool. And finally, it sounds like 738 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,280 Speaker 2: you're going to hit about forty five books this year. 739 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 2: What's a good one that you've read recently? 740 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: You know, I'll try to recommend some ones that aren't 741 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: like the ones that everyone knows, like I just finished Sapiens, 742 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: but like. 743 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 3: Everyone knows Sapiens. Right. 744 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: A really great sort of collection of nonfiction essays which 745 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:04,359 Speaker 1: is called called Howdwighten autobiographical novel by a relatively new 746 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 1: Korean American author named Alexander Chi is really fantastic In 747 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,399 Speaker 1: terms of a business book, I read one called Black 748 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 1: Box Thinking by Matthew c Ed I really enjoyed that 749 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: kind of combined a lot of you know, with a 750 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: lot of business books, they are duplicative or could be 751 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 1: a good article. He did a great job of bringing 752 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: together lots of great research and other books and putting 753 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,800 Speaker 1: it into one nice package. I like reading older stuff, 754 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: so I recently read The Conquest of Happiness by Bertrand 755 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: Russell and Fiction Knowness Fiction Knowness, I don't know how 756 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: to pronounce it Spanish originally in Spanish by Jorge Luis 757 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: Spores that were both really really good. And then if 758 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: anyone loves sci fi, probably the most amazing collection of 759 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: short stories in sci fi I read is called The 760 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,240 Speaker 1: Paper Menagerie by this art he's an artist, but author 761 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: named ken lou l i U, who's probably more famous 762 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,800 Speaker 1: for being the translator of the Three Body Problem from 763 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: Amandarin Too English. So he has his own, you know, 764 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: fiction that he's written that it's kind of a mix 765 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: of sci fi, speculative fiction, and kind of just history. Actually, 766 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 1: that was one of the most stop provoking things I've 767 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: read in many, many years. 768 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 2: Fantastic, loving all those recommendations. Look, it's been sorry, brilliant 769 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 2: talking to you, Matt. If people want to find more 770 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 2: about you or about WordPress or automatic, where is the 771 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 2: best place to do that? 772 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: Sure, if you would like to be distracted by me 773 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram, I'm at photomat p H O 774 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: T O m A T T and Twitter is probably 775 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: the one I use a bit more there. I post 776 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: very early the Instagram and use Instagram very early. And 777 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: of course my WordPress blogs are great places to find me. 778 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,560 Speaker 1: So I have two Matt dot blog and then m 779 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: at which is a special extension so just open no 780 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 1: dot com know anything like that is my main site 781 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: where I share things I'm reading, articles, quotes, and the 782 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: occasional hour longer thoughts. 783 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 2: Fantastic, fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Matt. Thank you 784 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 2: for being on the show. I've just loved chat. 785 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Bybye. 786 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 2: Hey there, that's it for today's episode. If you're looking 787 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 2: for more tips to improve the way you work, I 788 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 2: write a short monthly newsletter that contains three cool things 789 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 2: that I've discovered that helped me work better, which range 790 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 2: from interesting research findings through the gadgets that I'm loving. 791 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 2: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot co. 792 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 2: That's how I Work dot Co. And you're probably sick 793 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 2: of podcast telling you to give them a review in 794 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 2: iTunes if you like the episode, so I promise I 795 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 2: won't ask you to do that, but you know, if 796 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 2: the mood stricks you, then go for it. And if 797 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 2: you like this episode and you want more, just hit 798 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,959 Speaker 2: the subscribe button. See you next time.