1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Tuesday, 8 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 2: the fifteenth of November. 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 3: I'm Zara, I'm Sam. 10 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 4: Now. 11 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 2: It's been just over a month since private health insurer 12 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 2: Medibank announced a cybersecurity breach on its network, and since 13 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: then things have definitely gone from bad to worse. So 14 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 2: what happens when your data is stolen? 15 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 3: Where does it go? What does it mean? 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: In today's deep dive, we'll explain what you need to 17 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 2: know about the Medibank leak, ransom and dark web release. 18 00:00:54,800 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 2: But first, what's making headline? Sam. 19 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 3: Leaders from the world's biggest economies will descend on Bali 20 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 3: today and tomorrow for the annual G twenty summit. The 21 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 3: big news is that US President Joe Biden is set 22 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 3: to meet with his Chinese counterpart Jijimping. It's unclear if 23 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 3: Prime Minister Anthony Alberanzi will also have a meeting with she. 24 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: Flooding emergencies have been declared across Australia following heavy rainfall 25 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: in recent days. Flash flooding occurred in parts of New 26 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 2: South Wales and Victoria, causing major flood warnings to be 27 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 2: issued as hundreds of calls for assistance were made. Extreme 28 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 2: storms in South Australia caused blackouts for tens of thousands 29 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 2: of people while also closing down local schools. Pierre Anthony 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 2: Alberanzi said the government was quote working very closely with 31 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 2: state and local government on cleanup and recovery. 32 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 3: Ukraine has requested further energy supplies from Australia ahead of 33 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 3: what's expected to be a difficult European winter. While meeting 34 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 3: with Prime Minister Anthony Alberzi at the East Asia Summit, 35 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 3: Ukrainian our Our Minister Dimitro Kolaba requested additional energy supply and 36 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,519 Speaker 3: infrastructure be sent to Ukraine to help keep essential services functioning. 37 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 2: And today's good news, doctor Kate George will become the 38 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: first Aboriginal woman to chair an ASX listed company. Doctor 39 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: George was the first Aboriginal student to graduate in law 40 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 2: from the Australian National University and the first Aboriginal woman 41 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 2: to be admitted to practice law in WA. 42 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 3: In the last couple of months, we've had two major 43 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 3: cyber attacks, one on Optus, the big telco, and the 44 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 3: other on Medibank, the big private health insurer. Today we're 45 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 3: going to be talking about that second one, and it 46 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 3: really has been in the news every day this week. 47 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 3: In nine point six million people have had their data stolen. 48 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 3: But there's a lot more to the story than that, Zara, 49 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 3: when did we first learn about the league? 50 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean it's not just this week. I 51 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: feel like we've been talking about it for ages. But 52 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: the first news we had from Medibank was on the 53 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: fourteenth of October, and they said then that they detected 54 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 2: unusual activity on their network. I remember at that time 55 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 2: we were really preoccupied with the Optis news, so I 56 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 2: think not everyone was paying attention. But at that point 57 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: they were saying that they didn't think any sensitive data 58 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: had been stolen and that the breach was only a 59 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: risk for specific customers. So in early October, when we 60 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: first started hearing about this. The only people that were 61 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: thought to have been at risk of having their data 62 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 2: leaked were customers from Medibank's budget provider AHM and their 63 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: international student insurance, so at that point those were the 64 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: only things we understood to have been impacted. 65 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 3: So they were saying a breach had happened, and that 66 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 3: was the first we'd heard of it, and they made 67 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 3: a really clear point of saying it was only impacting 68 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 3: specific people. At that point, did we have a sense 69 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 3: of what information had been stolen? 70 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: Well about a week after that first announcement, Medibanks said 71 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: it had been contacted by a criminal group claiming to 72 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: have stolen two hundred gigabytes of data, So that was 73 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: kind of the first reference to how much information had 74 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 2: been taken. But again, that sample only confirmed that it 75 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: was AHM customers and International student insurance customers, so there 76 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: was nothing new there in terms of who had actually 77 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: been targeted and. 78 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: What are we talking here names and addresses? 79 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: Was that it They knew for sure that names, addresses, 80 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: medicare numbers, policy numbers, and contact details of those customers 81 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: had been taken. Medibank said the hackers also had information 82 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: about where customers received medical services, you know, the kinds 83 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: of procedures and diagnoses they received, and customers financial data 84 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: as well. 85 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 3: Okay, so what changed between that period and then suddenly 86 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 3: millions of Australian's health records being online. 87 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: Well, I think an important milestone is when the federal 88 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 2: police got involved, which was around the twentieth of October, 89 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 2: and I mean that's as good of an indication as 90 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 2: any that it's getting really, really serious. And that's when 91 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,799 Speaker 2: we started to learn for the first time that even 92 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: more had been stolen than initially thought. So the hacker 93 00:04:57,480 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: sent through another batch of data a few days after 94 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: the place got involved, which indicated basically that they had 95 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: accessed not just AHM and not just international student data, 96 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 2: but also data from across Medibank's whole database. And that 97 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 2: is a lot of people. 98 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the biggest health insurance provider in the country, 99 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 3: right it is. 100 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 2: And it was shortly after that that Medibank confirmed that 101 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 2: all of its customer data had been accessed in the 102 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 2: cyber attech. So that is some nine point seven million 103 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 2: former and current customers, which is just absolutely monumental. And 104 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 2: then again that same week, Medibank added some more information, 105 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: this time that the hackers had access data from a 106 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 2: joint venture between Medibank and the South Australian government called 107 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 2: My Home Hospital and my Home Hospital is a program 108 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 2: for high risk or high needs patients to provide them 109 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 2: within home medical care. So when we're talking about this here, 110 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: we're really talking about some of the most vulnerable people 111 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 2: in our community having their personal information stolen and subsequently 112 00:05:58,000 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: potentially leaked. 113 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 3: And I think when you talk about privacy violations, your 114 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 3: health records and your health data goes right at the 115 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 3: top of that list of the things that you wouldn't 116 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 3: want other people reading. It's some of our most personal information. 117 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 3: Why did the hackers want all this information? 118 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 2: Well, we know that the suspected hackers behind the breach 119 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 2: issued a ransom asking for ten million US dollars from Medicare, 120 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 2: and they threatened that if they didn't receive this money, 121 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: they would release customer data. 122 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 3: So we know that Medibank didn't pay the ransom. Talk 123 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 3: me through why. 124 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: The CEO, David Kosca said they've consulted security experts who 125 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 2: said that paying the ransom didn't guarantee the data would 126 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 2: be returned and actually might make things worse by making 127 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 2: Australia and even bigger target. 128 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 3: I was reading an interesting piece out of the UK 129 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 3: that said, there's kind of two types of ransoms here. 130 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 3: There's one where you get locked out of your system 131 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 3: and then you can pay a ransom to get the keyback, 132 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 3: change the password and your information is secure. But this 133 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 3: one where they actually steal the information, there's really no 134 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 3: point paying a ransom because they'll still have that information 135 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 3: at the end. What happened after they refused to pay, Well. 136 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 2: The hackers did what they said they'd do, after they'd 137 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: been threatening and threatening. Shortly after midnight on the ninth 138 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: of November, the deadline for the ransom, they posted customers 139 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: personal information on the dark web, and as part of that, 140 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 2: they posted two spreadsheets titled good List and Naughty List, 141 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: which included information on a range of sensitive medical procedures. 142 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: Then they posted a third file titled Abortions, which appeared 143 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: to list information about three hundred and three customers access 144 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: to abortion services in this country. 145 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 3: And that was only last week. What's happened in the 146 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 3: days since that release. 147 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: I mean, we've been hesitant to even do this podcast 148 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 2: because the minute we hang up the headphones and turn 149 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: off the mic, it seems like something new will have happened, 150 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: and that's just the nature of this data leak and 151 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 2: this data breach is that it is continuing to unfold 152 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: on a day by day basis. On Monday morning, hackers 153 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: released data about some policyholders access to mental health services. 154 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: So they've said they're not going to release any more 155 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: information until the end of the week after Medibank holds 156 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: its annual general meeting with shareholders. 157 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 3: And do we have any idea of who these hackers are? 158 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: All we know is what the AFP told us, which 159 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,679 Speaker 2: was that they believe the hackers are based in Russia 160 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: and they believe the group could be connected to cyber 161 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: criminals responsible for other breaches internationally. The AFP believes they 162 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: know exactly who is responsible, but haven't gone so far 163 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 2: as to name them publicly. 164 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: So we have law enforcement with a relatively good idea 165 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 3: of where and who these hackers are. What do they 166 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 3: do then with that information? 167 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: Well, the federal government has announced a one hundred officer 168 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 2: operation to target hackers that'll be jointly led by the 169 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 2: AFP and the Australian Signals Directorate. Cybersecurity Minister Clara O'Neil said, 170 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 2: this is Australia standing up and punching back. 171 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 4: They will show up to work every day with the 172 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 4: goal of bringing down these gangs and thugs. This is 173 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 4: the formalization of a partnership which will day in, day 174 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 4: out hunt down the scumbags who are responsible for them 175 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 4: malicious crimes against innocent people. 176 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 2: We'll be back in just a moment, but first a 177 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: message from our sponsor Zarah. 178 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 3: Let's zoom out. There's been two major cyber attacks in 179 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 3: the last couple of weeks in Australia. It's almost now 180 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 3: over half the Australian population statistically has had some sort 181 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 3: of data leaked against them. What do we do here? 182 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,719 Speaker 2: I mean, if you're the government who can actually do 183 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: something about this. They've said that it isn't enough to 184 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: be tackling these data breaches one by one, you know 185 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 2: as they come up. 186 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 3: Some larger reform does need to happen. 187 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: And Minister O'Neil, who I was speaking about before, has 188 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: said that the government will aim to pass through new 189 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: privacy laws in the next fortnight and this is aimed 190 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 2: at boosting penalties for breaches to at least fifty million dollars. 191 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 2: But then there's also some talk too about whether the 192 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 2: government will make it illegal to pay for ransom in 193 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 2: these kinds of cases. But again, we will have to 194 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: keep an eye to see what happens next in this space, 195 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 2: and no doubt there'll be another company next week facing 196 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: the same crisis communications as Manibank. 197 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 3: I'm sure every executive in the country is quietly checking 198 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 3: their privacy settings to make sure that they're not next, 199 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 3: because it obviously has a massive brand impact economic impact, 200 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 3: but of course the real victims are those whose data 201 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 3: has been leaked. If you learn something new on today's podcast, 202 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 3: would love if you can give us a five star 203 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 3: rating on Spotify or Apple or wherever you're listening and 204 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 3: write a short review. It helps new listeners find us 205 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 3: and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. 206 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 3: We'll be back tomorrow. Until then, have a great day.