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Speaker 1: It's time to rage against the menopause with Petrina Jones.

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Speaker 1: My next guest is someone I've long admired and grew

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Speaker 1: up reading in Dolly magazine, and Cleo ignited my passion

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Speaker 1: for journalism. In fact, Kaz Cook is an ossie author,

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Speaker 1: cartoonist and broadcaster. Chances are, if you're a parent like

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Speaker 1: me in a gazillion others, you had a copy of

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Speaker 1: Up the Duff on your bedside table. The Practical Guide

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Speaker 1: to Pregnancy and Childbirth was a staple for any baby

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Speaker 1: shower hamper. While she has learnt her talents to menopause,

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Speaker 1: pinning It's the Menopause, a reassuring, practical go to from

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Speaker 1: a trusted source after talking to literally thousands of women.

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Speaker 1: I love that for women by women. It's full of

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Speaker 1: her laugh out loud signature style and felt like a

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Speaker 1: gift from the gods when it landed on my desk

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Speaker 1: one morning after the show Welcome and thank You. I've

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Speaker 1: got to say this book, it's almost like a gift

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Speaker 1: from the heavens. I'm not kidding because I came off

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Speaker 1: the show, off the Christian o'connells show one morning a

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Speaker 1: few weeks back, and you your book. Your publicist had

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Speaker 1: sent me this amazing new book, it's The Menopause, and

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Speaker 1: it was sitting on my desk and it was almost

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Speaker 1: like a gift from the gods, like they were listening.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's gorgeous, thank you so much. Well, I wish

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Speaker 2: i'd had it when I was going through menopause. I'm

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Speaker 2: just through. And yeah, it's just with that my background

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Speaker 2: as a journalist, I thought, you know, this is going

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Speaker 2: to be a big job. But I didn't realize it

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Speaker 2: was going to take me three and a half years

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Speaker 2: of my life. A million, not a million, but you know,

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Speaker 2: nine milling, nine thousand women filling in the survey and

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Speaker 2: selling me all their secrets and wishes and worries, and

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Speaker 2: then all the medical electors. So it's been huge and

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Speaker 2: it's for me too. It's lovely to see it all

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Speaker 2: in one package now and ready to go.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, congratulations, it's you know, your books are like bibles.

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Speaker 1: I hope you realize that up the Duff was so

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Speaker 1: pivotal to my pregnancy experience twelve thirteen years ago.

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Speaker 2: And it's just so yes, I mean, it is amazing.

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Speaker 2: It's a multi generational thing with my books now, because

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Speaker 2: I keep updating them, and it's so nice to have

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Speaker 2: mothers and daughters both reading different different books at different

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Speaker 2: stages of their lives.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, when I grew up, when I was

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Speaker 1: a teenager in the eighties, I think it was doctor

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Speaker 1: Llewellyn Jones.

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Speaker 2: Every woman, imagine having your body explained to you by,

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Speaker 2: you know, a man, and that's how it was for

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Speaker 2: so many people. I mean, doctors didn't even know what

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Speaker 2: hormones were until the nineteen thirty so they've got a

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Speaker 2: lot of catching up to those.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about your book, Tell me about the chapters.

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Speaker 2: What I decided to do with the book is to

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Speaker 2: get you know, those comments and quotes from nine thousand women.

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Speaker 2: So part of the book is like a conversation between

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Speaker 2: women on all of those things, plus the experts. But

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Speaker 2: I've divided into chapters, so you know, we start the

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Speaker 2: first chapters called what even is the menopause? And then

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Speaker 2: it's a chapter called It's Your Hormones because I think

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Speaker 2: we're all really confused about progesterone, estrogen, testosterone, How much

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Speaker 2: do we need? What's happening? Are our levels of hormones

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Speaker 2: falling off a cliff in our forties, or as I

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Speaker 2: explain it, it's kind of more like the ABC logos.

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Speaker 2: So it's take up and down, around and going backwards.

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Speaker 2: And then I talk about because I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of people, we're all old enough and grown up enough

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Speaker 2: to bring our own philosophy to what's happening to our health,

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Speaker 2: but it doesn't always work when we hit menopause. You know, medication,

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Speaker 2: we may not want to take it, or maybe we can't.

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Speaker 2: Maybe the self help stuff isn't working for us. So

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Speaker 2: I talk about how solutions to menopausal symptoms can be

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Speaker 2: like a buffet. So you choose, and here's all the

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Speaker 2: evidence based information that you need. Page thirty six of

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Speaker 2: the book is more than the thirty symptoms that women

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Speaker 2: haven't even known were connected with their hormones. And I

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Speaker 2: didn't when I started going through it. So it's insane

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Speaker 2: mental changes, the brain fog, the lack of concentration, the

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Speaker 2: confidence falling off a cliff, and you know, then there's

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Speaker 2: all the body stuff. So it's not just hot flushes,

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Speaker 2: it's crazy heavy periods, it's headaches for many people, it's

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Speaker 2: itchy's skin. Who knew itchy skin with the menopause.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about itchy skin. I've got the weirdest thing.

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Speaker 1: I've got dermatitis in my ears, which is driving men.

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Speaker 2: Same, oh, that would drive you, and that is something

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Speaker 2: that you know, dry skin everywhere, everything that so many

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Speaker 2: women didn't know was connected. And then it's just your

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Speaker 2: sex life as well. And sex life yeah, well it's

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Speaker 2: often joked about, oh, women just lose interest. But what

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Speaker 2: women told me in the survey was, for many women,

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Speaker 2: it's so incredibly painful. Many women mentioned it and said

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Speaker 2: it's like razor blades. And there a pollutions for all

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Speaker 2: of these things, but women are often shamed to talk

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Speaker 2: about the fact that they're weeing unexpectedly or when they sneeze,

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Speaker 2: and they didn't know that that was connected to perimenopause

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Speaker 2: and what they can do about it. So and I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of people also, I don't know about you.

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Speaker 2: It's not like I was for a supermodel who had

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Speaker 2: to rely on my looks for my career or anything.

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Speaker 2: But even I was sort of going, oh, my face

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Speaker 2: is sliding off the front of my head, and why

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Speaker 2: is my hair suddenly all whoopy? And I used to

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Speaker 2: think that as you got older, women just stopped bothering

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Speaker 2: you know, doing anything with their hair, and then I realized, no,

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Speaker 2: actually your hair changes.

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Speaker 1: It does. Oh the hair's manky. What's with the hair.

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Speaker 1: It's just no amount of good Oh, no amount of

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Speaker 1: good shampoo, blow drying setting, nothing works. It just doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to do what it's meant or you need it

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 2: No, because it's it's changed. Things you can do. But

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Speaker 2: one of the really important parts of the book for

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Speaker 2: me was to let us all know that there are

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Speaker 2: so many ripoffs out there. There are so many claims.

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Speaker 2: I mean, people are selling menopause shampoo, menopause conditioner, menopause moisturizer.

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Speaker 2: It's all nonsense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's cract.

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Speaker 2: People are using us as a marketing opportunity, and we

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Speaker 2: need to understand that they're absolutely coming for us. And

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Speaker 2: you can't just Google because you get this kind of

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Speaker 2: fire hose of people selling your stuff and it's not

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Speaker 2: necessarily the information that you need. So I've got a

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Speaker 2: whole section on how to talk to your GP, what

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Speaker 2: to ask your GP, which websites are trustworthy, because it

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Speaker 2: can just be so confusing for people when they hit menopause,

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Speaker 2: even if they know that's what is the cause of

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Speaker 2: their problems.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, why do you think this is why? This is

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Speaker 1: the whole reason I'm doing the podcast is because I

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Speaker 1: want to formulate a really of support for other women

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Speaker 1: who are going through it. But also my other main

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Speaker 1: thing is I really want to open the conversation why

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Speaker 1: why aren't we talking about it? Why aren't we when

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Speaker 1: we go and have coffee with our girlfriends. If we're not,

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Speaker 1: what is the mojo that's hanging over it? I think

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Speaker 1: we should talk about it like we do conception and

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Speaker 1: pregnancy and childbirth. Why do you think that is?

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Speaker 2: I think there's a number of reasons, and one of

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Speaker 2: them is a really huge one I reckon is shame.

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Speaker 2: Women have been taught that their periods or anything to

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Speaker 2: do with women's health is lucky or shameful or embarrassing,

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Speaker 2: and we shouldn't talk about it, even with our doctors,

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Speaker 2: even with our girlfriends. I do think it's changing, but

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Speaker 2: I think that's one of the reasons for this book too,

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Speaker 2: as well as the same reason as your podcast, to

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Speaker 2: share feelings, to share experiences, but also to understand that

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Speaker 2: everyone's experience is different, so when you share them, when

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Speaker 2: you see your stories, the more we can do that,

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Speaker 2: the more. We understand that some people breathe through with

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Speaker 2: hardly any problems. Other people have a really difficult time.

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Speaker 2: And I was really shocked to discover, when I tell

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Speaker 2: you up what people had told me in the survey,

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Speaker 2: that so many people withdraw from their friends during perimenopause.

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Speaker 2: It's part of losing their confidence, it's part of feeling

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Speaker 2: that you know, they're not good at things anymore. They

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Speaker 2: tend to go into their shell often during perimenopause, and

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Speaker 2: that's a problem at home with your friends and at work,

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Speaker 2: and then again that creates even more shame. One of

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Speaker 2: the interesting things about hot flushes is women are so

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Speaker 2: embarrassed to get a hot flush at work or if

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Speaker 2: they've got a job where they're in front of people

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Speaker 2: and perhaps is a teacher or a nurse and having

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Speaker 2: to be, you know, the voice of authority. And if

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Speaker 2: you don't know, then a hot flush can look to

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Speaker 2: other people and feel to yourself like it's anxiety or

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Speaker 2: a panic attack, or you're embarrassed, or you're fibbing, because

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Speaker 2: those are the things we associate with going red and sweating. Right,

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Speaker 2: So we've got to change the knowledge base, get rid

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Speaker 2: of the shame and I think the other thing is

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Speaker 2: it is tied up with the way society treats older women.

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Speaker 2: We think about all the words that are used, you know,

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Speaker 2: old chook and crone and bunch of grandmas and you

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Speaker 2: know where talking about women in their forties who are

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Speaker 2: getting these symptoms, you know, and sort of being embarrassed.

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Speaker 2: I think to be associated with aging, embarrassed to go gray,

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Speaker 2: and that's a choice. But I've decided not to go

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Speaker 2: gray yet, and that's just an individual choice. But I

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Speaker 2: think there's so much stigma with women's health, with periods

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Speaker 2: and with getting old, and all of that is going

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Speaker 2: to have to change as we support each other.

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Speaker 1: That yeah, And I'd like to think by the time

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Speaker 1: my daughter is going through this in decades time, that

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Speaker 1: the narrative had has changed. I think it is seen

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Speaker 1: as a sign of weakness just aging in general. And

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Speaker 1: really when your flowers sort of dying out and crumbling

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Speaker 1: away in a lot of ways, I think you're really

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Speaker 1: growing into yourself, especially when you turn around fifty, I reckon,

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Speaker 1: don't you think?

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Speaker 2: Well? The last chapter of my book is all of

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Speaker 2: the positive, optimistic, wonderful things that women are sharing with

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Speaker 2: each other, and there is a sense of freedom that

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Speaker 2: comes with letting go of the idea of what you

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Speaker 2: should look like or what you should do. I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of women are really looking at taking what

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Speaker 2: can help them in medication, what can help them with

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Speaker 2: wellness or self help that there's evidence for. They're getting

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Speaker 2: canny about, Okay, what are my priorities in life. They're

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Speaker 2: saying to their teenage kids or older kids living at

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Speaker 2: home with them, it's time that you did your own laundry,

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Speaker 2: your own washing, saying that partners too. People are changing,

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Speaker 2: They're not putting up with the way they've been treated

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Speaker 2: in the past. And I think you know that there

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Speaker 2: are lovely families and lovely partners who are trying to

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Speaker 2: help women through perimenopause and menopause and feeling really confused.

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Speaker 2: And that's why you know books and podcasts that are

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Speaker 2: independent and not trying to sell you something, that are

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Speaker 2: really just trying to sell you the idea of you know,

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Speaker 2: you decide who you are and what you want out

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Speaker 2: of life in your in the last half of your life.

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Speaker 2: I'm in that's a long way to go, right, Yes,

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Speaker 2: The idea of writing ourselves off and our forties and fifties.

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Speaker 2: Is you know is I think we're all questioning that now.

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Speaker 1: I love that, Kas. What helped you? You say that

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Speaker 1: you're sort of out the other end of it? Now?

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Speaker 1: How long do you think you went through that perimenopausal

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Speaker 1: stage and what sort of lengths did you go to?

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Speaker 1: What helped you in your experience?

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Speaker 2: Well, I did not realize that what was happening to

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Speaker 2: me was perimenopause. I was losing sleep, and that is

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Speaker 2: a really huge symptom of perimenopause. It makes everything harder.

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Speaker 2: I had the confidence crash, and all of that happened

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Speaker 2: years before I had my first hot flush. And when

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Speaker 2: I went to the doctor, I reckon. I was in

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Speaker 2: there for about twelve minutes and came out with antidepressants.

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Speaker 2: And I know now that that was not right for

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Speaker 2: me at that time. I think antidepressants can be great

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Speaker 2: for many people and at different times, but for me,

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Speaker 2: I think the doctor completely missed that I was entering

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Speaker 2: into perimenopause. I think I had three or four years

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Speaker 2: of really difficult mental problems and sleep problems, and then

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Speaker 2: I reckon, I had about two years of hot flushes.

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Speaker 2: But then I went on medication and that just completely

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Speaker 2: controlled it. So some people that you know, they breathed

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Speaker 2: through that, you know, they don't even really notice. To

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Speaker 2: other people, they get noticeable symptoms like crazy periods, hot slashes,

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Speaker 2: you know, sneaky weing, and that might depending on whether

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Speaker 2: they tackle that with medication, and you know what their

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Speaker 2: own philosophy is. I mean, one woman in the survey

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Speaker 2: pat said to me that she was in her eighties

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Speaker 2: and still getting hot slashes. Yeah, people have one more

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Speaker 2: than a decade, more than twelve years, more than fifteen years,

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Speaker 2: and have not been well served, you know, by their

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Speaker 2: medical professionals. Some doctors are great, and there's that's why

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Speaker 2: they're stopped in the book about you know, what to

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Speaker 2: ask your doctor, how to find a good doctor. For me,

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Speaker 2: that's what made the difference is doing all this research

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Speaker 2: and finding out what I was going through and why.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I was so relieved when I found out

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Speaker 2: that my crazy itchiness, you know, had a physical hormonal

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Speaker 2: reason because I just really did a lot of women

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Speaker 2: talk about thinking that they've hit early dementia. A lot

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Speaker 2: of women are quitting their job. I mean, for me,

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Speaker 2: I did have a period when I didn't know what

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Speaker 2: was happening where I thought, oh, I can't be a

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Speaker 2: writer anymore. I can't remember words. I'm confused about, you know,

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Speaker 2: keeping track of my research. And thankfully I then understood

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Speaker 2: that it was temporary and there was medication I could

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Speaker 2: take for it. They think so many women suffer in silence.

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Speaker 1: Were you on HRT.

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Speaker 2: I'm still on MHT, which is the new name for HRT.

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Speaker 2: Used to be called hormone or replacement therapy, and now

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Speaker 2: doctors want us to call it menopause or hormone therapy, right,

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Speaker 2: And I'm still on it, and I'm on it partly

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Speaker 2: to protect my bones and to lower my risk of

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Speaker 2: heart design says, I'm in menopause, that is, you know,

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Speaker 2: for the rest of my life.

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Speaker 1: So is that like a patch cat.

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Speaker 2: I used gel for the estrogen. I use an oral

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Speaker 2: tablet for progesterone, because you've got to take progesterone if

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Speaker 2: you still have a uterus and you're taking estrogen. Some

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Speaker 2: of this is quite complex, but in a way, it's

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Speaker 2: just simple, if you know. And that's what I've written

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Speaker 2: it down all in one place.

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Speaker 1: I'm not taking anything and I'm not saying that to

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Speaker 1: say Anihroo, that's not at all, But I'm not even

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Speaker 1: taking vitamins or minerals, which is not a good thing.

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Speaker 1: I should be taking something, but it's because I don't

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Speaker 1: know what's out there.

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Speaker 2: A lot of vitamins are completely unnecessary if you have

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Speaker 2: a reasonable diet. You only need to take supplements if

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Speaker 2: you've got a deficiency. So that that involves going to

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Speaker 2: a good GP, getting tested, seeing what your vitamin D

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Speaker 2: levels are, and having a bone test if you've started perimenopause,

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Speaker 2: having a bone density test. This is all in the book.

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Speaker 2: These are all the things you can do to protect yourself.

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Speaker 2: If you don't have symptoms that are driving you nuts

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Speaker 2: that MHT would help, then no point in taking MHT.

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Speaker 2: It's not an automatic thing, it's not the devil, and

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Speaker 2: it's not a cure all. So you've got to look

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Speaker 2: at the symptom that you have, if any, and deal

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Speaker 2: with what can help you with those. It's kind of

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Speaker 2: common sense. It's a bit like I say, here's the

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Speaker 2: buffet of things that you can choose from bus I

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Speaker 2: do sweep a whole bunch of crockery off one end

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Speaker 2: of the buffet. Lebel and say, exhare this stuff because

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Speaker 2: there's no evidence for it, and This is just people

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Speaker 2: trying it.

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Speaker 1: It's like a platter, You've laid it out and it's

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Speaker 1: I guess it's for each woman to try what works

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Speaker 1: for them, because what works for you may not necessarily

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Speaker 1: work for someone else.

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Speaker 2: Well, we know that MHT, which used to be called HRT,

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Speaker 2: is a great frontline treatment for several of the symptoms,

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Speaker 2: and it's really reliable and it will help. We know

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Speaker 2: that exercise is really great. We know that trying to

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Speaker 2: do something to do with stress really helps hot flushes

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Speaker 2: and other things. So there is this mix of self

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Speaker 2: help and medication if you can take it. There are

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Speaker 2: also alternative medications to take. If you have a history

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Speaker 2: of breast cancer or endemetrial cancer and you've been advised

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Speaker 2: not to take MHT, you can still probably take and

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Speaker 2: in vagina cream which will help with the driver gina

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Speaker 2: symptoms and will also help with those wiing symptoms. So

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Speaker 2: it's just a matter of all this information that women

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Speaker 2: haven't been given in the past, and we need that

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Speaker 2: base lift. I mean, it's such a cliche, right patch,

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Speaker 2: but knowledge is power. If you can go to the

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Speaker 2: GP knowing which symptoms you might have and you get

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Speaker 2: a bad GP who says Oh, you just have to

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Speaker 2: put up with it, or oh you're too young. You're

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Speaker 2: too young in your forties to be having these symptoms.

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Speaker 2: That's a GP that you either need to get educated

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Speaker 2: fast or you need to go to another.

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Speaker 1: Dome, find another GP.

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Speaker 2: And a good GP is absolute gold in helping me

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Speaker 2: through this. And women said in the survey they really

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Speaker 2: love the gps who listen to them and help them.

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Speaker 2: A lot of us go through it feeling alone. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and we were actually fifty percent of the population who

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Speaker 2: will experience this.

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Speaker 1: That's what I mean. I'm so flabbagasted that there's not

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Speaker 1: not enough talk because it affects so many women across

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Speaker 1: the world.

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Speaker 2: I know, and there's still such a stigma, like two

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Speaker 2: point five million Australians yes, are either in menopause or

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Speaker 2: approaching the perimenopause, which just means all the symptoms around

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Speaker 2: and leading up to menopause. And I'm hearing men saying, oh,

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Speaker 2: no one's really interested in some men saying no one's

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Speaker 2: really interested in this, or this is a bit embarrassing,

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Speaker 2: or someone actually said to me live in an TV interview, Oh,

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Speaker 2: but you wouldn't give it to someone as a present.

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Speaker 2: Why not? It's not why not to say, like every

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Speaker 2: other woman in the world will go through menopause and

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Speaker 2: here's a fun book with cartoons and evans faced information.

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Speaker 2: I was so indignant. I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: this is what we're fighting against, you know this idea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we need to change the narrative and normalize it

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Speaker 1: because it's a perfectly normal stage of life. Yea, was

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Speaker 1: it three years? It took you to write the book.

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Speaker 2: About three and a half years to solidly research and

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Speaker 2: write it. And I'm so in awe of all the

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Speaker 2: fabulous experts, many of them women, that Australia has now

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Speaker 2: doing research in psychiatric areas of what menopause does to

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Speaker 2: mental health, all the studies that many professors who are

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Speaker 2: experts in the area are trying to do now about

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Speaker 2: different hormones and the effect that they have. But we

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Speaker 2: are so behind the eight ball with research.

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Speaker 1: And like we say, women are so in such a

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Speaker 1: desperate period of their lives as well, Like some days

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Speaker 1: you feel really rancid and you're just desperate for some

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Speaker 1: sort of relief from the hot flushes, from the exhaustion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the difficulty too, because when hormones are erratic,

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Speaker 2: which is exactly what happens in perimenopause. You can feel

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Speaker 2: a certain thing one day and then it suddenly goes

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Speaker 2: by half past three. You don't get it next Tuesday,

364
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Speaker 2: but then it's back next Thursday, and then nothing happens

365
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Speaker 2: for two months, and it's so bizarre, so confusing. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's actually really characteristic.

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Speaker 1: You do actually feel like I don't know how you felt,

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Speaker 1: but I actually feel it. Sometimes I think I actually

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Speaker 1: am going a bit batty, like I'm going crazy.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, so many women said they thought they were having

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Speaker 2: early dementia, and you know, in the survey, so many

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Speaker 2: things came up in the survey and the quotes that

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Speaker 2: are in the book that I didn't expect, and you know, oh,

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Speaker 2: I've just lost my train of Thought's brain frog again?

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Speaker 2: What was I going to say?

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Speaker 1: No, it's gone no good, No, haven't got it?

377
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Speaker 2: Oh sorry, pat, No, I don't apologize.

378
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Speaker 1: It's it is complete. I get it all the time.

379
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Speaker 1: I had doctor Sarah, and here I go, I can't

380
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Speaker 1: think of a surname now from Jean Hale's foundation.

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Speaker 2: It's hilarious.

382
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Speaker 1: I was saying to her, how on air, you know,

383
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Speaker 1: it's this whole imposter syndrome that you go through waves of.

384
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Speaker 1: But I'll be talking to Christian and Jack and I'll

385
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Speaker 1: be on a train of thought and then all of

386
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Speaker 1: a sudden, it's like someone just rips the rug out

387
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Speaker 1: from under me. And I feel like such a twat

388
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Speaker 1: on air because I've got no idea, like I think,

389
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Speaker 1: oh my god, Like if you're in an office environment,

390
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 1: you can probably get away with it, but when you're

391
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Speaker 1: on air, you must look like a.

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Speaker 2: It happens to me in interviews sometimes too. And that

393
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Speaker 2: I was going to say that women do feel like

394
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Speaker 2: they're going mad one of the things that women said,

395
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Speaker 2: and I didn't expect this. Women use the phrase not myself,

396
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Speaker 2: I don't feel myself. I don't know who I am.

397
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Speaker 2: I've lost myself. And I think that is talking about

398
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:57,479
Speaker 2: those mental changes and understanding that there's a hormonal reason

399
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 2: for them, even if you don't get treatment, can be

400
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 2: so comforting understanding that other women are going through it.

401
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Speaker 2: Because that's the bit that I had no idea was

402
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 2: a perimenopausal sympathy.

403
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we need to be honest, and I

404
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 1: think we need to get real, and I think we

405
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Speaker 1: need to remove the shame that seems to be around

406
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Speaker 1: perimenopause and menopause, and it's not a negative thing. And

407
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Speaker 1: you're right, we need to support one another, both men

408
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Speaker 1: and women. You know, support your partner.

409
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 2: We don't have to pretend that we're all perant everything.

410
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Speaker 1: Human at the end of the day, and we're all

411
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Speaker 1: going through it and we need to build this village

412
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Speaker 1: and support one another.

413
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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally agree. I just think it's time that women

414
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Speaker 2: got the information in their hands.

415
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we just.

416
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Speaker 2: Stop pretending that we're superwomen who can go through all

417
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: these stages of our lives and pretend that it's not

418
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Speaker 2: affecting us. I don't think it does women any And

419
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Speaker 2: I saw a commentator the other day. I was really

420
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Speaker 2: shocked that it was a woman saying, Oh, we should

421
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Speaker 2: stop all this talk about menopause women. It's going to

422
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 2: make women get sacked and it's going to prove that

423
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 2: women are no good in the work in the workplace,

424
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Speaker 2: and I thought you completely got the wrong end of

425
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Speaker 2: the stick. You know, every workplace needs to be flexible

426
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 2: enough to help people, whether they're going through a menopause

427
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 2: or they're a bloke who's got medical issues. Or someone

428
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: needs to pick up their kids from work. Every workplace

429
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 2: needs to be kinder to its employees. We all need

430
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: to support each other. I'm sounding like I'm mad hippie now,

431
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,959
Speaker 2: but this idea that's not at all that we're cruel

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00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 2: to people if they need a little help. I just

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00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 2: don't think that's the way the world should go anymore.

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00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: I think just because you're a woman, and just because

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00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 1: you get periods and can birth a baby and will

436
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,880
Speaker 1: eventually go through pery and menopause, just because you get

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00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: it because you're a woman, I don't feel that that

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00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,120
Speaker 1: should be discounted. It should be recognized just like every

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00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,959
Speaker 1: other medical condition in the workplace. It should be no different.

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00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I also think it makes women have a

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00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 2: better understanding of other people, a breadth of experience. Women

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00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: are brave, Women have a higher pain threshold. They are

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00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 2: going through all these things and yet they're holding down

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00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 2: jobs and making sure that they're doing all the emotional

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00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: labor at home, and they should be commended for it.

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00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 2: You know, there's this I mean, I'm just not interested

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00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: in pretending that perfect is normal. Perfect is impossible. You know,

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00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 2: women have got to stop thinking they need to be

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00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 2: perfect at what they look like, what they do, how

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00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 2: they conduct themselves in life. We've been amazing for decades

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00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 2: in our family, in our work, and it's time that

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00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 2: we gave ourselves a little pad on the back and

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00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 2: understood that we help each other through. Menopause is something

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00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 2: that you experience and you go through and you get

455
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 2: to the other side, and like the last chapter of

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00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 2: my book says, you know, this is the rest of

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00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: your life with more freedom, more confidence and this. Everybody

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00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: talked in the survey about how important their women friends

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00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: were and I just thought that was a lovely thing

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00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: to celebrate as well.

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00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: Tell me, I have one question in closing, Will I

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00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: feel normal again?

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00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 2: Yes, you will get yourself based, you'll be yourself again,

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00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: and in fact it will be better. You will have

465
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: more confidence, you will understand your body better if you

466
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,959
Speaker 2: make yourself aware of all this stuff. And honestly, there

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00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: was just so much optimism that women shared and they

468
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 2: all talked about freedom, a mental and physical freedom. Getting

469
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 2: to the other side.

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00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: Oh, I love it. Sounds like nirvana to me.

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00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: As something to look forward to.

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00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: Award winning author kas Cook talking about her Latey's book,

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00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: It's the Menopause through Penguin Books. I highly recommend it.

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00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 1: Our Menopause Journey Next takes us to what will feel

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00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 1: like you evesdropping on two best friends at your local cafe,

476
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,479
Speaker 1: because that's exactly what it is. I catch up with

477
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: one of my dearest friends, journalist, radio and TV presenter

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00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: and podcaster Sarah Patterson, or Beryl as I affectionately call her.

479
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: We've known each other since we were teenagers, and well,

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00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: I promised to frank chat. And that's exactly what it is.

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00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 1: As kindred spirits navigate this crazy thing we call menopause,

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00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: I'm Petrina Jones,