1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: I mean one way, I actually use the same OKR 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: process for my family life outside of UH and it's 3 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: very informal, and so I've mentioned this to people and 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: they thought that it's a little odd. But you know, 5 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 1: what trips are we going to take for the year, 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:21,959 Speaker 1: What new things do we want to learn? How do 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 1: we want to spend more family time together and things 8 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: like that. So you know, I involve the kids and 9 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: my wife and I go through and we have our 10 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: list of stuff. It's a pretty short list, but there's 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: a sense of accomplishment at the end of the year 12 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: when you reflect back on this and you go, yeah, 13 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: I did take that trip to New Zealand, or I 14 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: actually did pick up a sport, or you know, things 15 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: of this nature. So it's really quite nice. 16 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 17 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 18 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an 19 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm 20 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: obsessed with finding ways to demise my workday. Noat Today's 21 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 2: interview is another one that I recorded at TED twenty 22 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 2: nineteen when I was over in Vancouver a few weeks 23 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 2: ago for the Big five day TED conference. So, as 24 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 2: with all these TED interviews, there is a little bit 25 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 2: of background noise because there was not a single meeting 26 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 2: room that was soundproof. But I think we've got rid 27 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 2: of most of the background noise, so you'll just hear 28 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 2: tiny bits here and there. Nowaday's chat is with Jerry Dishler, 29 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 2: who is the VP of Product Management at Google, where 30 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: he leads the product team for Google's Search ads business, 31 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 2: the product and engineering teams for YouTube advertising, and the 32 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: product and engineering teams for Google's homegrown sales and support tools. 33 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 2: So he is pretty busy and Jerry has been with 34 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 2: Google for quite a long time. Now, we start this 35 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 2: chat by talking about how Jerry divides maker with manager time, 36 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: and if this is not a concept that you're familiar with, 37 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: it's a concept first written about by Paul Graham, one 38 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: of the co founders of y Combinator, and basically, manager 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 2: time is what most of the world runs on, which 40 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 2: is thirty to sixty minute increments. People that manage people 41 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: and therefore have a lot of meetings in their diary, 42 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 2: whereas make a time kind of conflicts with manager time. 43 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: Because this is for people that make stuff, whether that 44 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: be writing code or strategies or building new products, really 45 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 2: anything that involves creative and strategic thought, which really needs 46 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 2: to happen in uninterrupted blocks of three or four hours 47 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 2: to get into flow. And I was very keen to 48 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: chat to Jerry given heres someone that's obviously very senior 49 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 2: at Google and does a lot of manager stuff, but 50 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: is also a maker by background and a maker at heart. 51 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: So we start by talking about that, and then we 52 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: talk about all sorts of things around how Jerry organizes 53 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 2: and thinks about his work life, which I personally found fascinating. 54 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: So on that note, over to Jerry to hear about 55 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: how he works. Jerry, welcome, thank you. Good to be 56 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: sitting here with you. Now I want to start talking 57 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 2: about manager and make a time because as we were 58 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: just discussing before, like you've got a background as a 59 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 2: classic maker and you are now a manager. Can you 60 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 2: share what your role is at Google and what you do? 61 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I lead the product teams for search advertising, advertising 62 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: on YouTube, and then a number of sales and support 63 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: related systems that we build all in house. 64 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: And do you still do maker things with your time? 65 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: I do actually so I as I sort of progressed 66 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: as I made that maker to manager or transition, one 67 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:55,839 Speaker 1: of the things that I did was I look back 68 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: and said, Okay, how do I want to be spending 69 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: my personal time and where do I get joy? And 70 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: one of the things that I really get joy from 71 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: is working on my own personal projects that I think 72 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: are important These days, it means helping teams get innovative 73 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: things off the ground, or working on issues that are 74 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: important for the company or important for the industry where 75 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: I feel like I can contribute, and I try to 76 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: spend at least some percentage of my time on that 77 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 1: in order to stay grounded. 78 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 2: So how do you balance that then, like the commitments 79 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: of your manager role mixed with I guess the passion 80 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: that you have for making things, Like what does that 81 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: look like in a typical way in terms of how 82 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 2: you'd structure your time. 83 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: There's some people who can be one hundred percent booked 84 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: all the time, where you know they go into work 85 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: very early, they leave very late, and every minute is 86 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: scheduled For me. I try to keep that number of 87 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: hours down and have morning time and evening time for 88 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: reflection and exploration and where I can be alone with 89 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: my thoughts and pushing things forward. There's some people who 90 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,119 Speaker 1: find inspiration in a library or studying, and some people 91 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: who find inspirations singing in the shower or something like that. 92 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: I'm sort of the latter category of person, and so 93 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: I try to create those situations as much as possible. 94 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: So I'll go out into I'm lucky to be in 95 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: the San Francisco area, and I go out into nature 96 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: as often as I possibly can, which is where a 97 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: lot of my good ideas come from. And I'm able 98 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: to reflect. 99 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 2: And what does that mean going out into nature? Is 100 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: that going for a walk like for half an hour? 101 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 2: Is that going for a jog? Hike? Like? What does 102 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 2: that look like? 103 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: I'm a big trail runner, and so I go for 104 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: long trail runs, so long on the weekend, shorter during 105 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: the week. But the more time that I can spend outside, 106 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: you know, breathing in the fresh air and having time 107 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: with no distraction to think, the better off I am. 108 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: And so I try to be intentional and self reflective 109 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: about my time so that I can create systems where 110 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: you know, ideally I can have quality ideas because you 111 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: find that there the entire cycle of building technology. Product 112 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: is centered around this very tight loops and gratification and 113 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: everything is urgent, so you really often lose sight of 114 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: what's important. There's somebody who I think actually saw ten 115 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: minutes ago, who had a really good email responder, Sebastian Throun, 116 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: who worked on self driving cars and online courseware and 117 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: things of this nature. He said that he had this 118 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: limit of two hours of email a day because if 119 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: you spent any more than two hours of email a day, 120 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: then slowly people wouldn't actually want to email him, because 121 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: you would be unable to do the things for which 122 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: people are emailing in the first place. It's like a 123 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: very nice way of saying like, Okay, I have my limits. 124 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: I found that quite inspiring, and so I try to 125 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: create my own limits. Clearly not as grandiose objectives as Sebastian, 126 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: but I think it's an interesting pattern on the list. 127 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 2: So what is your approach to email then? 128 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: So definitely not first thing in the morning. 129 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 2: And define morning like we're like, are we talking morning 130 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 2: like up till lunchtime? Are we talking just the first 131 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 2: hour or two of the day? 132 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: Oh, just the first So for me, I'm I'm a 133 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: morning person. I wake up at five thirty and I 134 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: try to I start off with gratitude, which is I've 135 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: recommended this two a bunch of people. It's probably for 136 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: your listeners like ald Hat. But I have tried the 137 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: five Minute Journal and have had have used it dutifully 138 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: for a couple of years. Now, Wow, and it's good. 139 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: It affects your brain. I'm a naturally somewhat self critical person, 140 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: and it affects my brain in positive ways. So I 141 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: must maintain it. 142 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: And do you do that top and tailor of the 143 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: day like I've tried the five minute JWN of myself? Yes, 144 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 2: you doing that? And can you describe, like what are 145 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: the things that you're writing down, because it's quite specific 146 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: the five Minute Journal. 147 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's basically three things that you're grateful 148 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: for in a sentence, three ways to on how to 149 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: make your day great, and then one sort of personal 150 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: affirmation that initially I found very cheesy but now I 151 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: kind of look forward to. And then at the end 152 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: of the day you talk about, you know, your accomplishments, 153 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: reflecting on things that went well, and then one thing 154 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: that you could potentially do better. And so I do 155 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: this and periodically. Then I'll flip through it and say, Okay, 156 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: you know, what are the things that really energized me 157 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: over the course of a longer period of time, and 158 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: what are the things that I should really work on, 159 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: And then I use that in order to be intentional 160 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: about that for the following quarter, the following year, or 161 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: things like this. So I try to do that. Then 162 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: I try to figure out, hey, what's my top priority 163 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: for the day and see if I can get that 164 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: out of the way, and then at that point I 165 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: can do email or other things like that. But otherwise 166 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: I just find that, you know, you get sucked into 167 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: this sort of quasi prioritized list of urgency and aren't 168 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: able to get the things that you really need to 169 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: get done done. 170 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 2: And how are you avoiding not doing like a jazz 171 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 2: check in the morning, because obviously email is addictive. So 172 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: what does that look like for you? Are you just 173 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 2: using willpower and discipline to just not open the inbox 174 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: or using software that does for you? What does that 175 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 2: look like? 176 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: It's really it's sort of the flow of my day, actually, 177 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,599 Speaker 1: So I mean I wake up, I go to the 178 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: kitchen where there's a pen paper waiting for me, and 179 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: have breakfast, and then like I won't allow myself to 180 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,839 Speaker 1: I keep my phone at bay, and I won't allow 181 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: myself to physically go to my office where my computer 182 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 1: is if I haven't finished the stuff beforehand. And so 183 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: it's sort of this like physical separation that works well 184 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: for me. 185 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 2: Oh nice, It reminds me. I had Cal Newport on 186 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: the show a few weeks ago, and he was talking 187 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 2: about how workflows are so much more powerful than just 188 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: trying to hack habits. It sounds like you've kind of 189 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: got this workflow happening. 190 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I read his books. They're very good. 191 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 2: So what happens like when you've done your most important 192 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 2: thing for the day, would you then jump into email 193 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 2: straight away? Or like what happens next? 194 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 1: Yeah? Usually then then I'll go to email, clear some 195 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: things out. I have teams. I'm kind of all over 196 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: the place, and so if someone in Europe or someone 197 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: in Asian needs an answer, then I'll provide them with 198 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: sort of like urgent answers then and then typically I'll 199 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: go work out and head into the office. 200 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,599 Speaker 2: Yeah okay, and then like what is the rest of you? 201 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: I look like, is that where the matings at starting? 202 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: And following up. 203 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: Google has a fairly rigorous planning process, which actually John 204 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 1: Dorr talked about with the objectives and key results, and 205 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: so we have our quarterly objectives and annual objectives and 206 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 1: then we do strategic planning with some longer term objectives, 207 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: and then I try to break those down into chunks 208 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: for myself of here are the things where I need 209 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: to you know, the areas where I need to personally focus, 210 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: and I generally break those down into kind of monthly 211 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,079 Speaker 1: and weekly objectives, so I know, hey, here are the 212 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: highest priorities for the week, and I can do these 213 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: things in order, and if I've got them done, then 214 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: I feel like it's a pretty good week. And if not, 215 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: then you know, I have to reflect on what is 216 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: you better the next time? So it all sort of 217 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: feeds into that. 218 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious about that. We do okay as as 219 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: well at Inventium and the innovation consultancy I run, and 220 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,680 Speaker 2: we've we've got quarterly okay as and they then latter 221 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: up to the annual company goals, like how how do 222 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: you personally approach your quarterly okayrs? Like are you sitting 223 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: down at the beginning of the quarter and almost like 224 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: blocking out the twelve weeks and going, okay, this is 225 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 2: what I need to hit by when like, what what 226 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: does that planning process look like for like the quarter? 227 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: Well, typically we'll start with an annual planning process, and 228 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: the quarterly OKRs tend to be derivatives of the annual OKRs. 229 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: And then the question is, okay, is you know, is 230 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: this credible progress for the quarter relative to the annual 231 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: objective or not? And then what my role is a 232 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: lot of times, because I have a lot of teams 233 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 1: that are creating OKRs, are okay, what are the most 234 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: important priorities from across the group? And where are the 235 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: areas where I need to push for people to stretch? 236 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: And so I think about that a little bit, and 237 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: then when we go through our review meetings of figuring 238 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: that out, then I'll try to push folks thinking to 239 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: the extent that it's needed. 240 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 2: Okay, And like how planned is your quarter in terms 241 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: of like wake by weight? Do you know exactly what 242 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: goals you're going to focus on? What does that look like? 243 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: We let teams run with their own as long as 244 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: they hit their objectives, they can run with their own 245 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: ways of prioritizing that, so we're a little looser than 246 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: I think a startup that operates on a heartbeat, where 247 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: everybody knows exactly what they're doing on a weekly basis. 248 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: For me personally, I have my own objectives for the week, 249 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: and I do that in order to stay sane. As 250 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: I think you can probably tell, I'm the planner. Yeah, 251 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: and so the sort of repetition and the maintenance of 252 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: the process provides me with comfort. That doesn't mean that, 253 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: you know, things don't come in from left field and 254 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: I can't accommodate them, But you know, if in general 255 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: you know what direction you're pointing in, I find that, 256 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: you know, you tend to be more intentional and product 257 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: durban and happy. 258 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: So you're definitely a planner. And we spoke about that 259 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 2: before we began the interview, that you know, you asked 260 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: for some questions to think about in preparation, which I 261 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: loved because I found that so rare in people that 262 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 2: I interview, and I love the thought that someone's actually 263 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 2: giving some deliberate thought to what I'm going to be 264 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 2: talking about with them, which makes for a much better interview. 265 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: I think where else does your I guess your planning 266 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: sort of come into things like what might surprise people 267 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 2: about the way that you work. 268 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 1: I mean one way, I actually use the same OKR 269 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 1: process for my family life really outside of and it's 270 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: very informal, and so I've mentioned this to people and 271 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: they thought that it's a little odd. But you know, 272 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: what trips are we going to take for the year, 273 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: What new things do we want to learn? How do 274 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: we want to spend more family time together and things 275 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 1: like that, so you know, involve the kids, and my 276 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: wife and I go through and we have our list 277 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: of stuff. It's a pretty short list, but there's a 278 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: sense of accomplishment at the end of the year when 279 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: you reflect back on this and you could I did 280 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: take that trip to New Zealand, or I actually did 281 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: pick up a sport, or you know, things of this nature. 282 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: So it's really quite nice. 283 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 2: That's so cool. I'm quite a fan of like taking 284 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 2: business frameworks and applying them in our personal life because 285 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: I feel like we apply far less conscious and deliberate 286 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 2: thought to how we kind of create the best personal 287 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: lives for ourselves. 288 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there were a few things where, for example, 289 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 1: my wife and I were reflecting on how we get 290 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: the most joy as a family, and one of the 291 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: things that we really enjoy doing is spending time with 292 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: other friends that we have kids that are similar ages, 293 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: and just everyone gets to relax and spend time together. 294 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: So we said, okay, you know, every weekend we're going 295 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: to do this, and our lives are just immeasurably better 296 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: because of that. So, you know, just having that reflection 297 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: is good. 298 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's awesome. I want to come back to email 299 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: because obviously working in the company that invented the amail 300 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: program that you are using noeubt Like, what what tricks 301 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: do you have for like approaching your inbox in a 302 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 2: way that I guess makes email a little less painful 303 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 2: than it can be. 304 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: So I use prioritize inbox and I spend the time 305 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: to train it. 306 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 2: How do you train it? 307 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: Oh, you can? You mark something as important in market 308 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: is unimportant and it learns over time, and so I 309 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: do that pretty religiously. So I have a segmented inbox 310 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: when I am not sort of responding to tactical emails, 311 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: but when I'm actually sitting down and doing emails, I 312 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: start with the first email for the all this email 313 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: first and just go through linearly which I find just 314 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: is like a much faster way to process. What I'd 315 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: really like to do, which is not really easy to 316 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: do with any email client, is to sort of topically 317 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: cluster email. So you say, Okay, here are like the 318 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: major threads in a couple hundred email inbox and you 319 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: deal with them in clusters. But that's really hard to do. 320 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: So that'll be a feature your requests to the Gmail 321 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: team label. 322 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: That's cool. I want to ask you about recruitment because 323 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: I imagine, like, how many people do you think you've 324 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: recruited at your time at Google? A lot, a lot. 325 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, hundreds of interviews, let's say, yeah, wow, And so 326 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 3: I want to know, like Google obviously is famous for 327 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 3: its incredibly thorough and data driven recruitment process. 328 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 2: For you, personally, what have you found to be the 329 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 2: most effective questions or techniques or things that have been 330 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: like the biggest predictors for making a great hire. 331 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: Well, there are tons of there are tons of online 332 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: resources on Google interview questions, but there are a few 333 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: that I really kind of dwell on. One of them 334 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: is why do you want to work at this company? 335 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: In this rule? And people who have really thoughtful answers 336 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: to that tend to do well in the process. People 337 00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: have really reflected on that, And I would say that 338 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: that is probably ten percent of people who I talk 339 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: to you have like a truly good answer for. 340 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: That, really, like what's it like? What are the sorts 341 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 2: of things that someone would say that that would make 342 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: you think or I don't know, if there's an example 343 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: of someone that you're like, oh, yeah, they've really thought 344 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 2: about this. 345 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 1: Well, you know it's I mean a lot of people 346 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: will say, well, it's an interesting company. You know, you 347 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: have vast resources or other things like this, you know, 348 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: et cetera. But there are some people who will say, 349 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, there's you know, there's this particular opportunity which 350 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: in which I'm really interested or Google acted in the 351 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: following way in this situation, and that is in line 352 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: with my values, just sort of like deeper, deeper analysis 353 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: of that, and those people tend to be sort of 354 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: self reflective people who also end up doing really well 355 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: in the rest of the interview. So that's that's one thing. 356 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: Another thing I like to ask people a lot are 357 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: taking a complex idea and making it simple kind of questions. So, 358 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: you know, take a business and how would you run 359 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: it with a dashboard of metrics or something like this, 360 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: you know, and it's not just what metrics they come 361 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: up with, but how do they think through the problem, 362 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: Like are they a structured thinker? Are they an ad 363 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: hoc thinker? And you know, at the end of the process, 364 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: do they come up with a pretty reasonable approximation of 365 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: an answer or not? And so you tend to get 366 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 1: a lot out of these types of questions. 367 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, cool, any others that kind of stand out for you. 368 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: We do a lot of for product managers. We have 369 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot of creative sorts of questions like how would 370 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: you make a product better? Sort of intellectual curiosity kinds 371 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: of questions just to see how people are. I mean, 372 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: we make many decisions based on data, but at the 373 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: same time, people have to have pretty good intuition and 374 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: judgment and have to have, you know, a curious mind, 375 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: and so trying to identify that and trying to tease 376 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: that out is really important too. 377 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, cool, Yeah, interesting. I want to ask about, 378 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 2: like what what software, gadgets tools like that use to 379 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: help you do a better job, like be more productive, 380 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: be more effective, what you do. 381 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: Well, my to do list and everything around it. I 382 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: put in just a giant Google doc so it's not fancy. 383 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it could just as well be a text 384 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: editor that gets SYNCD to the cloud. It's you know. 385 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 2: And is that like deliberate as opposed to using to 386 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 2: do list software? 387 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: Yes? 388 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 2: Why so? Why is that? 389 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: Because I prefer it to be a little bit so 390 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: I can create my own structure with little boxes, so 391 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: I have my weak priorities and my month priorities, and 392 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: what are the top priorities for each day, and little storing, 393 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, locations for things I need to get too 394 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: eventually in other things of this nature. And it's just 395 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: easier to put it in something which approximates text. Then 396 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: you don't have any problems cutting and pasting or whatever. 397 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: It can be as long as it wants and it'll 398 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: look okay. You know, I don't think I need any 399 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: more structure than that I can access from anywhere, so 400 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: that works. 401 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 2: I like that. 402 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: I really I love news and staying on top of that. 403 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: And there's one app that I recently started using for 404 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: newsletters called Stoop. 405 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 2: How do you spell that? 406 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: S t op? Okay, it's a little rough around the edges. 407 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: I don't think there are many people using it right now. 408 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 1: But basically the idea is you have your own you 409 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: have a different email address where you can send all 410 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: of your newsletters and it just puts them in a 411 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: unified inbox and then it'll cluster them by the the 412 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: newsletter itself, so you can catch up on one or another. Uh, 413 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: and then you can subscribe and unsubscribe easily from within 414 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: the app. So that's pretty neat. 415 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:34,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like the like the idea of something curating newsletters. 416 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: That's that's it's very handy. 417 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: There's so much great content coming out in newsletters now, 418 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: and yeah, being able to keep it all organized. And 419 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: then also again so you know, if you're processing your 420 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: inbox and you get a new newsletter, is that going 421 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: to distract you know, because it's in the separate app. 422 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: So it offers me a monkum of restraint. 423 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 2: You know, excellent. And what are your like, what are 424 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: your go to sources of inspiration and knowledge because obviously 425 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: I guess, like you know, staying on top of things 426 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 2: is kay in the role at Urian. 427 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: I mean, the best information is from talking to people 428 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: conferences like this, you know, going out and visiting people 429 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: and getting their opinions. There are a ton of great 430 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: news sources. In tech news. I think that Axios is 431 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: doing an incredible job. 432 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 2: And how do you spell that Axios? Okay, Cool'll link 433 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 2: to that in show notes. 434 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: I think they're doing a great job in the political 435 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: and tech sphere. They're a number of others, And yeah, 436 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: I mean that's a I mean, this is about it 437 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: trying to be as intellectually curious as possible reading a lot. 438 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:34,639 Speaker 1: I try to read a lot of books. 439 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 2: How do you decide what books to read? 440 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: That is an interesting question. So lately the way that 441 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,959 Speaker 1: I've been doing it is I've been asking interesting people 442 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: what are their favorite books? And I was reading I 443 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: was reading a book the other day in na Seemed 444 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: Telleb's book where he said, you know, any book that 445 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: was written in the last twenty years is not worth reading, 446 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: so you should read old books. So lately I've been 447 00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,719 Speaker 1: asking people what are your favorite books that are more 448 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: than twenty years old and so and then we get 449 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: this a different list, and now I'm sort of starting 450 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: to go through those. 451 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: Wow, which is great. What is some standout books that 452 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 2: you've read, like in the last year or so, In. 453 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: The last year So two of my favorite books that 454 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: I have re read recently are actually a guy who's 455 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: at this conference, Charles Sman's books nineteen forty one and 456 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: nineteen forty three. Those are just, you know, an incredible 457 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: history of America sort of pre and post colonialism. Those 458 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: are pretty amazing. 459 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,959 Speaker 2: Yeah. Cool, And you mentioned like just the value in 460 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 2: talking and meeting new people and so forth, like I 461 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: wanted to know, Like we're here at TED, this is 462 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 2: both our second year at TED, Like how do you 463 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 2: approach the week? Do you have a plan or goals 464 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: or like what does it look like for you to 465 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: get the most out of a week Like. 466 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: This, I try to attend as many talks as possible, 467 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: I try to talk to you as many speakers as possible. 468 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: And yeah, I just try to prioritize meeting new people. 469 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: So I was talking to somebody recently who I'm not 470 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: going to embarrass by reviewing, but he is a self 471 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: declared introvert who does not seem introverted at all. And 472 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: then like, how do you do this? And so he says, oh, well, 473 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: I approach it like a video game. Actually, so him 474 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: being extroverted is like a video game where he maximizes 475 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: points by talking to new people. You know, maybe I should, 476 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: maybe I should adopt this approach. It seems like a 477 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: good one and certainly a rewarding one. 478 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,479 Speaker 2: My god, that's brilliant. Wow. And then at the end 479 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 2: of the week, like, like, do you have a plan 480 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: for how you'll dissect your notes your thoughts? Like what 481 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 2: will that look like for you? Maybe? What did it 482 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:44,360 Speaker 2: look like last year? 483 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: What it looked like last year is I had a 484 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: number of random notes and I sort of grabbed them 485 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: all and constructed an email for folks at work and 486 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: an email that I sent to friends. And then that's 487 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: how I ended up arranging my thoughts. It was good, 488 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 1: you know, things that I need to investigate more people, 489 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: I needed to follow up with, things I need to 490 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: do differently. It was great. 491 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 2: That's so cool. Well, Jerry, it's been so fun talking 492 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 2: to you and hearing about the way that you work. 493 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time. 494 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: Thank you, it's a pleasure. 495 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: Hello there, Thank you so much for listening. I hope 496 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 2: you enjoyed my chat with Jerry and got some useful 497 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 2: tips And maybe maybe you might be thinking about using 498 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 2: okays in your family life, which I thought was a 499 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: really cool idea personally, and if you're enjoying how I work, 500 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 2: why not tell other people about the podcast or even 501 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: write a review. It's just been wonderful. Getting feedback from 502 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 2: listeners just bring the huge smile to my face. So 503 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 2: thank you for everyone that has left a review or 504 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 2: given us a star rating. It's awesome. It makes my day. 505 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 2: So that is it for today and I will see 506 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: you next time.