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Speaker 1: Get a I'm Lala Berry, nutritionist, author, actor, TV presenter

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Speaker 1: and professional oversharer. This podcast is all about celebrating failure

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Speaker 1: because I believe.

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Speaker 2: It's a chance for us to learn, grow and face

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Speaker 2: our blind spots.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I'll interview a different guest about their highs.

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Speaker 2: As well as their lows, all in a bid to

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Speaker 2: inspire us to fearlessly fail.

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Speaker 1: Hello Gangles. Today's episode is a ripper. Jenny Valentiche has

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Speaker 1: jumped on the pod to celebrate her new book that

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Speaker 1: is literally dropping tomorrow. So if you're listening to this

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Speaker 1: on Monday, the book is officially on sale all over

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Speaker 1: Australia tomorrow and if you get lucky, sometimes bookstores pop

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Speaker 1: them in a day early. So it's called an Introverts

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Speaker 1: Guide to Leaving the House, Solid advice for introverts, awkwards, sociophobes,

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Speaker 1: and standoff.

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Speaker 2: Each issues.

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Speaker 1: Stand offis I can't say that my brain and mouth

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Speaker 1: woon't say that. It's really fascinating And when I sat

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Speaker 1: down with Jenny, I was like, I'm an introvert and

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Speaker 1: she was like what.

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Speaker 2: And it's actually Jenny.

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Speaker 1: That taught me that I can function like I can

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Speaker 1: mask as an extrovert, but deep down I'm really an

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Speaker 1: introvert and love being alone and I'm a homebody in

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Speaker 1: all those things. Anyway, very cool chat, very very interesting,

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Speaker 1: and of this new book we deep overt and I've

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Speaker 1: got to say one of my favorite chapters is how

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Speaker 1: to hit a Party like a Swat Team.

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Speaker 2: It is so fascinating, so cool. We talk about.

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Speaker 1: Small talk, we talk about the power of solo travel.

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Speaker 1: It is just a really cool, honest and open chat.

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Speaker 1: This book is officially, like I said, out tomorrow, Jenny.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for jumping on the pod. And I know

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Speaker 2: Jenny was like when you recorded this.

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Speaker 1: Was like super jet lagged, had only landed from the

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Speaker 1: other side of the world literally the day before, and

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Speaker 1: still made it into the studio, made it happen.

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Speaker 2: What a trooper. So thank you, Jenny. I hope this

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Speaker 2: book goes gangbusters. I'm sure it will to you.

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Speaker 1: The Listener and Introverts Guide to Leaving the House is

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Speaker 1: officially available now well tomorrow, but now wish all right,

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Speaker 1: big love.

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Speaker 3: Enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Jenny Valentish, welcome to the pod.

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Speaker 3: Thank you made it happen beautiful with me.

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Speaker 1: Well, hang on, I feel like you've been overseas. You've

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Speaker 1: driven a couple of hours to get here and we

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Speaker 1: made it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I actually don't feel the jet lag yet,

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Speaker 3: although we'll see that it remains to be seen.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Oh you look fresh than you. Where have you been.

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Speaker 3: I've been to the UK, back to my home, and

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Speaker 3: also to the Canary Islands, which turned out to be

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Speaker 3: a bit of a surf Mecha loved it. Bro you're

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Speaker 3: a surfer, no, but the casual kind of culture and

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Speaker 3: you know, the cafes and stuff, which is ridiculous because

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Speaker 3: I've come from the coasts in Australia, but it was

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Speaker 3: kind of nice to get that little element of home

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Speaker 3: from home.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: So you're I've got here journo author podcast. I also

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Speaker 1: deep dive your pod.

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Speaker 2: Love it.

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Speaker 1: I know that it's not you haven't got episodes out

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Speaker 1: in last little like a year or so.

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Speaker 3: But they're still there and they're great. Thank you fun.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, biohacking, sign me up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I when we to the listener, this episode came

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Speaker 1: together really in the last minute, and I am so

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Speaker 1: wrapped because I was sent your book and I thought,

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Speaker 1: all right, here we go. I'm I've got four virgos

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Speaker 1: in my chart, so I'm a bat OCD and like

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Speaker 1: to go into things to be prepared. I read an

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Speaker 1: introverts Guide to leaving these and I thought, hang on

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Speaker 1: a sec.

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Speaker 2: This is great. So it's like a talk kit, really,

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Speaker 2: isn't it.

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Speaker 3: It is? And you're actually the first person I've talked

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Speaker 3: to in the media who's read it. So this is

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Speaker 3: kind of mind blowing for me, especially because you know,

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Speaker 3: I consider you to be a cards carrying extrovert, so

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Speaker 3: I could be wrong, but the fact that you enjoyed it,

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Speaker 3: oh my goodness out of.

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Speaker 1: It so much so you have actually hit a little

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Speaker 1: nail on the head with me. Everyone thinks I'm an introvert, sorry,

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Speaker 1: an extrovert because I'm chatty Kathy and love could talk underwater,

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Speaker 1: which I can, but I have to then be alone

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Speaker 1: to get my energy back. Yeah, and I love social

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Speaker 1: interactions that are one on one, Like if you and

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Speaker 1: I were having a cup of tea right now or

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Speaker 1: a coffee, I'd be totally comfortable. The moment that group

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Speaker 1: of people hits more than five sweaty palms can't handle it.

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Speaker 3: That does actually make sense to me. Then, because in

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Speaker 3: the book, I talk a lot about the co steps

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Speaker 3: of having an invisible high viz Fest is if an

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Speaker 3: inch of it has a role. You know, I'm a journalist.

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Speaker 3: I talk to people all the time. If I've got

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Speaker 3: a role, I'm fine. Yes, when you don't have any

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Speaker 3: guidelines small talk groups, yes, that's the problem for me. Yes.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I felt so seen reading your book.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I was literally so. I was reading

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Speaker 2: a PDF version on my phone.

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Speaker 1: I was like, all I was doing was taking screen

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Speaker 1: shots of like my favorite pages. And I love this

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Speaker 1: bit where you were saying I love to know like

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Speaker 1: the headcount, the numbers before I go into a scenario.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, this is I'm reading about myself,

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Speaker 1: Like I can handle it if I've mentally prepared myself

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Speaker 1: or don't me to research so I know what I'm

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Speaker 1: going to talk about whatnot. But like even the other day,

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Speaker 1: I thought I was going to a dinner with just

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Speaker 1: two people and it ended up being I think seven,

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Speaker 1: unbeknowns to me, I didn't realize until the cars were

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Speaker 1: out the front of the house and I was like no,

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Speaker 1: and I could just feel my breath like get caught

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Speaker 1: in my chest.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I remember somebody else supposed to be going

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Speaker 3: on holiday with a girlfriends and she just invited somebody

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Speaker 3: else randomly with this. The more the merrier eth as

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Speaker 3: and is like, what.

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Speaker 1: I've got a friend that does that all the time.

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Speaker 1: She did Thanksgiving last year and I was like, Alex.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like you're a high masking introvert then maybe.

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Speaker 1: But like I said, like one on one, like my

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Speaker 1: cup is going to be so full, I'm not tired.

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Speaker 1: Like this is that said to downregulate, I have to

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Speaker 1: be alone. So I really I'm excited for this book

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Speaker 1: because I really think that and I think we think, okay,

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Speaker 1: well that person's an extrovert, that person is an introvert.

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Speaker 1: But really, like it feels like there is like what

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Speaker 1: did you call me a.

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Speaker 3: High high masking interuct which I just made up? You know,

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Speaker 3: It's it's true, like you get people with autism who

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Speaker 3: mask well sort of pass an adverted commas in social

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Speaker 3: environ Yeah, so I think it's quite similar. Really, I

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Speaker 3: suppose I am high masking these days as well, because

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Speaker 3: when I was telling people I was writing the book,

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Speaker 3: even some sort of relatively recent close friends of mine

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Speaker 3: are saying, but are you an introvert?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, yes, yes?

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Speaker 3: Is it not obvious? Wow? Apparently it's not so Yeah me,

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Speaker 3: I suppose. I mean, not that there's anything wrong with

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Speaker 3: being an introvert at all. It's not any kind of

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Speaker 3: a flaw. But you know, if I'm trying to pass

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Speaker 3: as being more socially confident in certain scenarios, it appears

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Speaker 3: I'm fooling my friends as well.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, I honestly, I think the other thing is

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Speaker 1: you're obviously you're a journalist, so you're smart, You've got

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Speaker 1: your wits about you, do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: I think people see that as confident in any scenario.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but there are so many tricks as well, like

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Speaker 3: actually said a moment ago, you know, we're really prepared,

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Speaker 3: Like you've researched me, I'd researched somebody else. I also

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Speaker 3: use beta blockers if I'm going to be on stage

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Speaker 3: or something like that, which blocks your adrenaline. Yeah. So

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Speaker 3: there are lots of workarounds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because public speak as well, don't you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I do keynotes and you know, facilitate panels and

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Speaker 3: you know that kind of thing. So that kind of

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Speaker 3: thing was I would have seen that date looming on

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Speaker 3: the horizon forever, with a sense of dread as it

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Speaker 3: got closer and closer, thinking why did I say yes

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Speaker 3: to this? As I say yes, But now I don't

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Speaker 3: have to worry about it at all as long as

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Speaker 3: I've done, you know, prep, I know that I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to be hamstrung by just your physiological system. You know,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to my voice isn't going to go

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Speaker 3: flat or robotic. I know my heart's not going to

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Speaker 3: be something. I'm not going to run out of breath.

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Speaker 3: So to have that removed just really clears the way,

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Speaker 3: because I'd be nervous before about I might have to

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Speaker 3: go to some professional event where let's say it's a

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Speaker 3: conference or something, and they're going around the room and

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Speaker 3: each person has to just say their name and where

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Speaker 3: they work, I'd be shitting myself.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I trained as an actor

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Speaker 1: in Los Angeles and recently I was in a class

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Speaker 1: and the warm up was called Kiddy Cat Career and

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Speaker 1: you had to stand in a group in a circle,

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Speaker 1: and one at a time you had to stand the

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Speaker 1: circle and do a career as a cat, like an

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Speaker 1: artist as a cat, a scuba diver as a cat,

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Speaker 1: and the person that guessed the career would then have

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Speaker 1: and everyone a cheer and you have to run in

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Speaker 1: the circle and create a career as a cat. And

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Speaker 1: I was I reckon, like my armpits were westy like dripping,

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Speaker 1: and I love acting, but that I was.

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Speaker 2: Like, oh, I'd rather swallow raizor bloke.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's making exhibition of yourself. And it's also improv,

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Speaker 3: isn't it. Whereas if you've got a script, no produce

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Speaker 3: and you're not being yourself bonus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And also I also think as well, like you said,

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Speaker 1: if where you there's a reason for you being where

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Speaker 1: you are, Like when you're doing scene study, like you said,

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Speaker 1: you've got a script, you're there to get feedback, You're

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Speaker 1: there to analyze a script.

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Speaker 2: Like it's very clear. But improv is like okay, on

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Speaker 2: your own, you.

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Speaker 3: Got so scary. Actually, my partner is an actor, Frank

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Speaker 3: I know, and he I realized. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: he was doing it on purpose, but I realized a

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Speaker 3: few months into our relationship he was doing improv with me.

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Speaker 3: So in the car and things on walks, he would

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Speaker 3: fall into some silly character and then I have to

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Speaker 3: also oh yeah yes and yeah yeah yes end, And

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Speaker 3: it just got me sort of thinking on my toes

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Speaker 3: a bit more. And he taught me the rules of

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Speaker 3: you know, you don't block people, you add and yeah,

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Speaker 3: all the rules to improve that are actually really useful

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Speaker 3: to anyone who finds conversation a bit tricky and needs

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Speaker 3: a roadmap.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So there is a lot of improv coaching in this book.

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Speaker 2: It's so good.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so my favorite chapter, can I share with you

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Speaker 1: how to hit a party like a swat team?

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Speaker 2: Please teach me in the listener.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, parties especially difficult because you don't know what

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Speaker 3: to expect. Yeah. So, I mean for these chapters, I

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Speaker 3: talked to professional kind of warm up people, professional entertainers

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Speaker 3: like Brian Nankervis and a guy called Mats O'Brien who

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Speaker 3: runs this initiative called Tell your Friends You Love Them

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Speaker 3: about bringing people together. And so he's hired by festivals

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Speaker 3: like Boogie and Okay Motels in Australia to basically be

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Speaker 3: there on site when people arrive and try and get

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Speaker 3: them mixing. And he does that through games and things.

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Speaker 3: So they were kind of my spirit guys in the

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Speaker 3: chapter if you like, but if you're really nervous about

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Speaker 3: turning up and who's going to be there accession, My

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Speaker 3: top tip would be get there first, you know, whether

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Speaker 3: it's sort of getting there even before it begins, and

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Speaker 3: helping the person set up, showing your face. I call

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Speaker 3: it actually shut up early, off early.

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Speaker 2: So good, so good, Sign me up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. That way, you know as which sort of guest

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Speaker 3: or guests come in, then they're the ones kind of

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Speaker 3: put on the spot. You're the person who's kind of

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Speaker 3: embedded there already. You can also have give yourself a role,

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Speaker 3: whether people know it or not, Like, Okay, my role

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Speaker 3: tonight is going to be snacks facilitator, or my role

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Speaker 3: is going to be to actually look out for people who,

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Speaker 3: you know, the wallflowers who are feeling even more awkward

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Speaker 3: than me. Something where you just have a purpose so

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Speaker 3: that you're not flotsaming jets, and because I think that's

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Speaker 3: the worst thing about social anxiety is when you just

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Speaker 3: don't know what you're supposed to do. Yeah, you're just floating.

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Speaker 1: No purpose, yeah, and then you're like get awkward and

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Speaker 1: then you think, oh my god, I say the wrong thing,

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Speaker 1: and then you think about that conversation that felt really

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Speaker 1: awkward for the next flipping year.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's another piece of advice

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Speaker 3: in the book, really is which I learned off Frank,

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Speaker 3: my partner, because he can make any kind of social

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Speaker 3: faux path like you can. Yes, he somehow convinced people

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Speaker 3: at a party that we were swingers. Research.

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Speaker 2: Yes I read that.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm not true at all. He can't remember what

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Speaker 3: he says, but you know, he's not bothered about that

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Speaker 3: at all. Yeah, anything he says that is a bit

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Speaker 3: kind of it's a bit hectic. Yeah, he either doesn't

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Speaker 3: notice or he'll have a laugh and move on, whereas

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Speaker 3: I would be overthinking that forever. Maybe I'll try and

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Speaker 3: bring it out and make it worse.

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Speaker 1: Yeah oh yeah, the double down like accidentally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, let's keep going over that awful conversation here,

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Speaker 3: let's return to that. Whereas if you if you move on,

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Speaker 3: I think people give you the benefit of the doubt

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Speaker 3: if they even noticed at all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. My boyfriend always says to me, it's done,

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Speaker 1: don't worry about it. I'm like, what what do you

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Speaker 1: mean it's done, It's not We're going to dissect it, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, well, what's the point It's done.

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Speaker 2: It's in the part, and I'm like, I cannot. I cannot.

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Speaker 3: But if he's more chill, have you tried to sort

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Speaker 3: of pick up on some of that and adapt.

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Speaker 2: Top Yeah, I mean totally. I think.

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Speaker 1: I think for me, the way that I am in

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Speaker 1: social scenarios usually is a reflection of like how I

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Speaker 1: am in my confidence levels going into that scenario. So

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Speaker 1: the way you were talking about like being a journalist

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Speaker 1: and preparing or like today, like whah, I didn't really

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Speaker 1: have too many nerves because I'm like, I know that

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Speaker 1: I've done the best that I can do preparing for

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Speaker 1: each guest today, and so if I can prepare, that

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Speaker 1: usually will help, and then my confidence is going to

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Speaker 1: be good if I'm clear within myself, which usually is

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Speaker 1: a mental health picture for me personally.

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Speaker 3: But I mean, the final chapter of the book is

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Speaker 3: it's called are you a control freak? As I am?

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Speaker 2: And I'm looking at one.

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Speaker 3: I mean by that by control freak, I mean sort

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Speaker 3: of feels a bit anxious if they don't know all

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Speaker 3: the parameters. Yeah, isn't prepared for situation. And I finished

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Speaker 3: the book with that because I realized writing the book.

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Speaker 3: You know, you come to realize things as you go

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Speaker 3: as I'm sure yeah did too when you were writing yours.

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Speaker 3: I realized that behind social anxiety is generally a fear

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Speaker 3: of not being in control. Yeah, so I talk about Okay,

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Speaker 3: so what are some more what are some less healthy

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Speaker 3: ways of trying to control the situation, like using alcohol

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Speaker 3: for instance, Yeah, and what are some more positive ways?

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Speaker 1: I know you're unreal I feel like I just want

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Speaker 1: to have this book in my pocket at all times.

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about small talk? Because there's two chapters

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Speaker 1: on small talk and I feel like I'm allergic to it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I get a bit uneasy when I feel like

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Speaker 1: I'm just talking about like really Monday, not Mondane, just

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Speaker 1: things that I don't understand what we're discussing, like, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like a lot of my value system is to

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Speaker 1: connect with people, and so I'll have a really uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: conversation if it means it's honest, it doesn't bother me.

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Speaker 2: But this the feeling of like swimming in small talk.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I find uncom This is why we're a podcast,

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Speaker 3: because you get to go bang straight in with the

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Speaker 3: first question into something super deep right, Yeah, yeah, right,

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Speaker 3: makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, look I love it. I could podcast all

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Speaker 1: the cows come home, my friend. I'm like so obsessed

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Speaker 1: with it. Like even when you were the black I

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Speaker 1: think we were emailing each other at different times.

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Speaker 2: Of the night.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure for you or you're on a long whole flight.

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Speaker 1: When you said yeah, I can make happin, I was like, right, okay,

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Speaker 1: we're going to make this, Like this is total purpose

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Speaker 1: for me. But yeah, what's your take on small talk

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Speaker 1: and how can someone that feels like they're.

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Speaker 2: Allergic to it and navigate it?

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Speaker 3: First of all, nobody likes small talk great, So, I

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Speaker 3: mean extroverts are sometimes referred to as golden retrievers, like

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Speaker 3: just bounding everywhere and that is going inside out loving it. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but they don't like small talk either. It's just small

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Speaker 3: talk's a thing that happens when we're finding our feet,

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Speaker 3: you know, when we're trying to find an avenue into

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Speaker 3: a deeper conversation. So that means we've got to be

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Speaker 3: part of trying to apply that avenue. So it's tempting

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Speaker 3: if you're an introvert to just ask tons of questions

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Speaker 3: of the other person to take the spotlight off yourself.

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Speaker 3: But A that's kind of boring for us sometimes, But B,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's on us to provide those hooks to

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Speaker 3: the other person to be interested in us. So I

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Speaker 3: don't know about you, but sometimes I'd kind of get annoyed,

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Speaker 3: like I've been in this kind of three or four

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Speaker 3: person conversation for a while and maybe someone's shown no

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Speaker 3: interest in me at all until they've found out, oh,

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Speaker 3: she's got an interesting job or something else interesting, and

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Speaker 3: then suddenly you're a person of interest. Yeah. But you know,

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Speaker 3: I've come to realize, well, did you actually give them

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Speaker 3: any reason to be interested in you at all? Did

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Speaker 3: you provide them with any inroads into an interesting conversation?

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Speaker 3: Probably not. So it's not that they're being you know, superficial, perhaps,

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Speaker 3: but the fact that we haven't provided something. So it's

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Speaker 3: important to, you know, look for these opportunities to volunteer

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Speaker 3: something interesting, whether it's something about yourself, think it was

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Speaker 3: in the news today, something you saw on the way here,

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Speaker 3: and also to actively listen to what they're saying back,

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Speaker 3: because when we're nervous, we tend to for instance, if

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Speaker 3: somebody if we ask somebody their name and they tell

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Speaker 3: us their name. Often we don't actually register what the

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Speaker 3: name is because we're like, okay, I had to ask

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Speaker 3: them what their name is. I've done that, yeah, but

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Speaker 3: we forget to listen. So it's really important to both

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Speaker 3: provide information, be generous with that, and actively receive it.

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Speaker 3: But in terms of you know, people who really rally

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Speaker 3: against small talk and it doesn't suit, I'd actually put

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Speaker 3: the call out on Facebook for people to talk about

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Speaker 3: their best kind of small talk scenarios, what's their go

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Speaker 3: to question or something that they ask And someone made

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Speaker 3: the point small talks actually really kind of toxic and

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Speaker 3: not helpful to people who are inspection. Yeah, I thought,

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Speaker 3: actually this is really interesting, So I wound up interviewing

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Speaker 3: them and that became its own chapter called fuck small Talk.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 3: And they explained how they don't really understand the rules

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Speaker 3: of small talk because there are no rules, so it's

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Speaker 3: just going off in any kind of direction. It's really

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Speaker 3: stressful for them, and so they prefer to either kind

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Speaker 3: of reasonably politely shut it down or or really just

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Speaker 3: talk about something that's of significance to them, that has

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Speaker 3: meaning to them, and steer something in that direction. So

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Speaker 3: it's not small talk.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I like that take because I also think

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Speaker 1: as well, like you can feel when things feel fake

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Speaker 1: and forced, like it feels a bit uncomfortable in your body.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, small talk's excruciating. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: you see people, let's say it's some kind of events

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Speaker 3: and people are mingling beforehand. You see people shoulders hunch,

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Speaker 3: their drinks are raised quite high. They might be stabbing them,

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Speaker 3: and then with the straw disappearing for quite a long time.

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Speaker 2: Totally, totally.

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Speaker 1: I love what you said about active listening. I learned

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Speaker 1: so much being at acting school in LA And my

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Speaker 1: teacher always says, when you're nervous, because if you.

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Speaker 2: Do a callback, you're not going to know your reader.

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Speaker 2: You're not going to know the.

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Speaker 1: Five people sitting on a couch probably eating grapes while

400
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Speaker 1: you're auditioning. Yeah, like it's pretty wild. And she always says, like,

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Speaker 1: stay curious and tell me the color of your reader's eyes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so the moment you take the focus off, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, what do they think of me? Do they

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Speaker 1: think that I'm weird? Do they think that I look

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Speaker 1: better with blonde hair than black hair? Like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I went, like it kind of like gets you off

408
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Speaker 1: this weird hamster wheel. Yeah, and instead I'm sitting opposite Jenny,

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Speaker 1: who's got these beautiful kind of like I want to say,

410
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 1: like Bluey Hazley Green, You've got a bit of everything

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Speaker 1: going on in these but like you see how it

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Speaker 1: pulls you straight away out of yourself and like it

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Speaker 1: comes back to that active listening and then just staying

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Speaker 1: really curious about the other person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we've probably been talking for I don't know,

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Speaker 3: ten minutes maybe, and I've already had to remind myself

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Speaker 3: early on be present, you know, like, don't start thinking

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Speaker 3: I'm on a podcast. What am I going to say?

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00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah. This is a conversation. Yeah, Low is

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Speaker 3: sitting opposite you. I almost like mentally remove all the background,

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Speaker 3: the headphones, the mic.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, just camera.

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Speaker 3: It's two cameras looking at me right now, Like so good.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: I think that presence thing is key, and I do

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Speaker 1: think when you're unfortunately though, when you are in a

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Speaker 1: social scenario and some something that I do in social

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Speaker 1: snows you might have felt this being a journal as well,

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Speaker 1: like I become acutely aware of my status yeah, and

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Speaker 1: especially if you're hanging around a famous person or something

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Speaker 1: and you're like, you feel like an aunt in the room,

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Speaker 1: and you're like, am I even meant to be here?

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Speaker 2: Now? I've got imposter syin drup and like all.

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Speaker 1: These other things are going on, You're just like, Okay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, where I Where am I on the hierarchy of

436
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,879
Speaker 3: this ladder. I've noticed as well, because this is a

437
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 3: book essentially about social anxiety, I've noticed almost like this

438
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 3: self sabotaging elements creeping in. So the first time my

439
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:19,160
Speaker 3: publisher introduced me to a group of people in the office, yeah,

440
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 3: they kind of had a chuckle. Let's see, let's see

441
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 3: how you handle this as an inch of it. And

442
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 3: we all went down had a coffee and I heard

443
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 3: myself in that conversation slightly stammer twice, and I actually

444
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 3: don't stammer. And I was like, Oh, this is interesting,

445
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 3: is it? Because it is self sabotage and I'm talking

446
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,440
Speaker 3: about some socials, I'm doing it now, I'm talking about

447
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 3: social anxiety, and so I'm expecting this extra scrutiny.

448
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, the stakes feel too high or like early Yeah,

449
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 1: and that's all on our minds, right, like we're making

450
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 1: those steaks xietly.

451
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not.

452
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 2: Aren't we wild?

453
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:55,880
Speaker 3: Yeah? Aren't we?

454
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: Can you talk talk to me about the power of

455
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 1: solo travel.

456
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we can get so much out of

457
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 3: traveling on our own. I mean, actually, when I went

458
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 3: through a really low patch and I had a great

459
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 3: job at the times, I was able to do this.

460
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 3: I would just get on a plane to a different

461
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 3: state every weekend on my own and just explore. And

462
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 3: I was fairly new to the country, so like going

463
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 3: to Adelaida, Brisbane, you know, a country town was even

464
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 3: getting on the train was really quite healing in a

465
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 3: way because it was your reliant on yourself. You're discovering

466
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 3: things for yourself. There's no conferring or.

467
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: You know.

468
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,959
Speaker 3: It's all about exploration. I think curiosity and exploration are

469
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 3: huge for introverts. We really need to foster those things. So, yeah,

470
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 3: there's a chapter on the power of solo travel. I

471
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 3: talked to Sally who did the Kumino Trail. I talked

472
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 3: to my friend Kate, who just travels all around the

473
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 3: world on her own all the time. Much prefers it,

474
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 3: and yeah, it's about it's about really getting in touch

475
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 3: with yourself and seeing what you're made of. And also

476
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 3: because you're out of your comfort zone, you really do

477
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 3: kind of have to talk to strangers more and also

478
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:25,479
Speaker 3: want to. And Kate definitely advisors pushing that, you know,

479
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 3: like let's say you're at dinner on your own. She's saying, well,

480
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 3: you know, try and sort of infiltrate the conversation of

481
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 3: the couple next year because they've probably been traveling together

482
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 3: for weeks and a stick of each other anyway. Yeah,

483
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 3: and then she tries to really come up with the

484
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 3: best stories about her travels as well, really kind of

485
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 3: think about what they are to make the conversations interesting,

486
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 3: especially because she's our early fifties as I but you

487
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 3: know she look in cred by the way she I'm fifty,

488
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 3: but yeah, she worries, as we all do, that she

489
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 3: becomes more visible. So the way to counter that is, right,

490
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 3: I'm going to blow their little minds with these stories.

491
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 3: I've got to tell how good? Yeah, So again it's

492
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 3: kind of being more mindful about being social and thinking

493
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,159
Speaker 3: what can I share? What can I talk about?

494
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: And do you think having a good story like in

495
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: your little like in your backpack? Yeah, is kind of

496
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,719
Speaker 1: a good antidote if it feels like, oh, we're stepping

497
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: into awkward territory here.

498
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 3: Or like, let's just definitely I mean, my partner is

499
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 3: one who really holds court. So yeah, he'll stand up

500
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 3: to tell the story. Yeah, he'll stand up and be

501
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 3: you know, sort of acting it out. Which isn't everyone's

502
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 3: cup of tea, it's mine. I think this is very

503
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 3: very amusing, and thanks for entertaining me. But there's probably

504
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 3: a middle ground. Yeah, you've just got something weird and

505
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 3: unusual that's happened to you that isn't completely irrelevant to

506
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 3: the situation that we're in right now. It's a bit

507
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 3: odd to use it otherwise.

508
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 1: I feel like so much of my acting training is

509
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: coming in and every time you audition you're meant to

510
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: have two monologues in your back pocket, and one like

511
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,479
Speaker 1: classic like Shakespeare or Arthur Miller or Tennessee, and then

512
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: the other just like something contemporary that you love, potentially

513
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 1: from a show or something. And it's so that if

514
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 1: you auditioned for someone, they go, Okay, great, I need

515
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 1: to see something else, and you're just like, well, what

516
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 1: do you want?

517
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 2: Classic or contempt? And you've got it. Ready to go.

518
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 2: And I feel like so much of this is mirrored

519
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: in what you're saying, like by having that like. And

520
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 2: I also think, yes, it's.

521
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 1: About being prepared and maybe knowing if you're a control

522
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: free like accepting them and leaning int but like being

523
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: prepared and being a control for it can be two

524
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: different things, you know, like just going in really prepared.

525
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 3: I mean they're cousins.

526
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a good way of looking at it.

527
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's the weight hand's machine thoughts.

528
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: Well, the cousins are I didn't ask you a straight

529
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: out question, That's why I just let you fly. But

530
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: the cousins that is like being prepared, having a story

531
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: or do in the back pocket, versus the needing to control.

532
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 3: That's it. I was going to say. I think a

533
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 3: lot of people are late bloomers when it comes to confidence,

534
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 3: because the older we get, the less we care about

535
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 3: what people think. And it's incredibly freeing. In my twenties

536
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 3: and early thirties, I was tying myself up nuts about

537
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 3: what people thought, which was quite vain really, because I

538
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: don't think people were thinking about me nearly as much

539
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 3: as I thought they were.

540
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 2: We're all doing that though we are.

541
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, so I think often we can be late

542
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 3: bloomers to understanding social etiquette. You know, if it doesn't

543
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 3: come instinctively, then you just have to teach yourself. And

544
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 3: we were all taught to things when we were very,

545
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 3: very young, so it's not like we just have these skills.

546
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 3: So I think there's no shame in thinking at a

547
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 3: later age there's more I'd like to learn, and I'm

548
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 3: actually going to actively set myself in some exercises or

549
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 3: think about what could be tweaked.

550
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 2: Well, that's why I like the book.

551
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: There's all these talks a talking, and like at the

552
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 1: end of each chapter you're like, all right, here you go,

553
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 1: and you've given you literally break it down into like

554
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: edible like chunks where we're like, okay, I can try

555
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 1: that out.

556
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, And most of those things I genuinely came up

557
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 3: for myself, probably in my late twenties early thirties was

558
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 3: a really rigorous time of Okay, I don't think all

559
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 3: my tactics of being a person in the world are working. Yeah,

560
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 3: sometimes people seem to misunderstand my intention. Yeah, I do

561
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 3: the classic things, Like I was a boys girl, so

562
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 3: I'd hang out with guys more, which always creates problems

563
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 3: for you if you're not smart about it. So I

564
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 3: just came up with all these little things to try,

565
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 3: like okay, you're walking into a room so high to

566
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 3: women first, but tons of things where it was like

567
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: little twiddles of a knob, like you've got a mixing desk,

568
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 3: I'm going to try this, turn that up a bit,

569
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 3: turn that down. And some of these exercises were around empathy,

570
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 3: like putting myself in people's shoes more, which also gets

571
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 3: you out of your own head. So like say you're

572
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 3: sitting on the tram or something, you might discreetly look

573
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 3: around and imagine like a thought bubble above each person's head.

574
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 3: What are they thinking, I love that yeah, Or look

575
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 3: at what they're wearing. Imagine them choosing the outfit. What

576
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 3: were they thinking? Not like what were they thinking, but

577
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 3: what are they trying to put across to the world.

578
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 3: All these ways of taking you out of yourself. Realizing

579
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: there's something called spotlight bias, which is where you can

580
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 3: feel like your existence is, you know, causing other affecting

581
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 3: other people's behavior and perception of you. So trying to

582
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 3: like recognize that that's the thing and and see other

583
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 3: people as autonomous human beings. You've got their own shit

584
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 3: going on.

585
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 2: I love that.

586
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 3: Do you know?

587
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: I just had a psychic on the podcast right before you. Yeah,

588
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: I think you met him out of the front and he.

589
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 3: Doesn't look like I would imagine a psychic look.

590
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: No, he's so trendy, isn't it.

591
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's I just meant he wasn't very nice.

592
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: No, no, he wasn't like shanty shanty. He's like very

593
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: gorgeous with his Louis Vuitton bag. But he he said

594
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: to me, it's fascinating when you look at what people

595
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: wear because as actually they're putting a message out into

596
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: the world and there's a lot And I said, okay,

597
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: what does it like. I've didn't really think sometimes I

598
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: planned what I was going to wear today, but I

599
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: didn't think beyond I feel comfortable in that it's going

600
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: to be fun to sit in a seat, like it's

601
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: not going to make me feel lucky, and you know

602
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like that was my thought pattern.

603
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: And he was like, well, no, you've chosen to wear green.

604
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: To me, that means like you're someone that wants to

605
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: be around nature and nature is important.

606
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 2: And I was like, how did you know that?

607
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: Like, but it is fascinating when you get out of

608
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: your own head and you get really like, yeah, I think,

609
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: I know we've said this word a little bit, but

610
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: curious about the stuff going on around you. I have

611
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: to ask you because I like rite to write our

612
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: author to author like, there's it's such a beast creating

613
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: a book. And like from that first call you would

614
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 1: have had with your publish art to then like maybe

615
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: you picture a chapter or like and then it comes

616
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: to life and it goes back and forth with your editor.

617
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: What was your favorite part of writing this book? Because

618
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: I know you've written other books, but what was your

619
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: favorite part of writing this book?

620
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 3: You know, this book wasn't behaving for quite a long time. Really, Yeah.

621
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 3: It was initially called does not play well with others? Nice?

622
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 3: It was less kind of I hadn't really thought about

623
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 3: it as being around social anxiety and introversion. It was

624
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 3: more about awkwardness because I'd never considered myself to be

625
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 3: an anxious person. But then I realized you were absolutely

626
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: fooling yourself. You just you don't want us to be

627
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 3: your brand, so kind of when my publisher and I

628
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 3: started talking about it, it changed form. It became more

629
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 3: kind of self help you though there's tons of memoir

630
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 3: in it too, and it became more kind of pertinently

631
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: about introversion and social anxiety. Of course, not all introverts

632
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 3: do have social anxiety, has to be said, and plenty

633
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: of extroverts have it, but there is more of a

634
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 3: sort of overlap between introversial and social anxiety totally. But

635
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 3: my favorite part, sorry, would be as you're getting to

636
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 3: sort of draft two, draft three, they all kind of

637
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: meld into one, but when it starts to look good

638
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: and you're like, oh, it's great. And I had a

639
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 3: little writer's group actually run writers' groups, but I also

640
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 3: had my own one with other published authors, and we

641
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 3: were all looking at each other stuff, and so I

642
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 3: was getting feedback the whole time. And they weren't all

643
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 3: introverts and they didn't have social anxiety. So it's great

644
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 3: to just have that sort of input. As I went, what.

645
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: A gift to have been a writer's group while writing

646
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: a manuscrict Yeah.

647
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, some people advise against it, like you might get

648
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 3: so pulled in all different directions, but I felt like

649
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 3: I knew these people well enough to know.

650
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: Good barometers yeah, I love that. And then I have

651
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: to ask, do you have a favorite chapter or topic

652
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: that you really delve.

653
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 3: It's probably the one Are You a Star Seed?

654
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: I haven't read this, but yet, tell me, teach me,

655
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: teach me.

656
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 3: So there's a few chapters called are you a Are

657
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 3: you a job's worth? Yes, you better quickly explain that.

658
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 2: Sorry, no, I love that one job's worth.

659
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 3: It comes from the English expression sorry, I can't do that.

660
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 3: It's more than my job's worth. Oh, it's above my

661
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 3: paper people who are reluctant to help anyway. There's another

662
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 3: one on you a Star Seed? And I'm just fascinated

663
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 3: by some of the shonkier kind of spiritual life coaching

664
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 3: out there, and this idea that someone's kind of got

665
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 3: this special healing power when if you look at their

666
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 3: material it's very materialistic, for instance, or seems to be

667
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 3: more about themselves than being helpful.

668
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: It isn't not wild that that's in the health and

669
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: wellness world, though, Isn't it weird that, like, shouldn't the

670
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: purpose be to help others, like at the end of

671
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: the day.

672
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 3: Rather than show that you're also living a luxury lifestyle

673
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 3: in Bali?

674
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

675
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 3: So look I did kind of shoehorn this in there

676
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 3: because it's one of my favorite topics. Yeah, but it

677
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 3: did look at the idea of people who historically, like

678
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 3: as a child, for instance, haven't been able to express

679
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 3: themselves very well, who you know, have have had big

680
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 3: feelings but not very good at getting them out there,

681
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 3: or weren't given the avenues to can to kind of

682
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 3: create their own truth and universe and you know, idea

683
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 3: of who they are and what they can do. So

684
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 3: it kind of looks at how spirituality can sometimes sort

685
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 3: of take a bizarre path. So, yeah, it's it's a

686
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:58,959
Speaker 3: kind of a wild card in this book.

687
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 2: Col Cool.

688
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 1: I like, I like also calling out that kind of yeah,

689
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: that weird spirit Like I spend a lot of time

690
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: in Byron Bay two and I love Byron Bay the best.

691
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of like life coaches and spiritual

692
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,479
Speaker 1: and very serious yoga teachers and I'm a yoga teacher too,

693
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: but like, you know, and I'm like, well, we've all

694
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: got to like chill the f out a little bit.

695
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: Sometimes not all the time, but it's where that's like

696
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: also like and I think that you're always going to

697
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: get tripped up in your career if you're tying all.

698
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: Of your worth to the way you're perceived. Yeah, Like

699
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:38,239
Speaker 2: it's that weird extrinsic value versus intrinsic and and that's

700
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 2: what I think can happen a little bit in that

701
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 2: spiritual space.

702
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 3: And I think you and I, because we're both teachers,

703
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: and because we are used to talking about ourselves, we

704
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 3: are able to spots when someone's not a good player.

705
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it feels fake.

706
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 3: But then it becomes a bit of kind of almost

707
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 3: like this self said, I spotted that. Yeah, yeah, that

708
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 3: person is a crank. Yeah, it can become a bit

709
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 3: of a you know, he's slapping yourself on your own back.

710
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 3: I'm talking about myself now, No.

711
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I love it. I no, okay. So I

712
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: am a nutritionist.

713
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 1: It's one of them, a slashy so one of the

714
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: many hats I wear. So I was so fascinated when

715
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 1: I saw a deep dive your insta and I saw

716
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: your journey with bodybuilding.

717
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: And I didn't know about Moytai. I did muy Thai

718
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 2: for many years.

719
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 1: So my favorite thing about Muta was actually like the

720
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 1: respect and spiritual side of it.

721
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 3: As well, But talk to.

722
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: Me about bodybuilding, because like, there are so many questions

723
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 1: I have discipline, diet, the cut beforehand, your first meal after,

724
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: like yeah, and also what made you want to do it?

725
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,879
Speaker 3: I had written this book called Everything Harder Than Everyone Else?

726
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 3: Why some of us push our bodies to extremes? And

727
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 3: each chapter follows people who do different things. But it

728
00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 3: you know, hanging from fleshooks and BDSM clubs, or being

729
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 3: a fighter, or being a deathmatch wrestler where you kind

730
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 3: of throw each other into barbed wire and stuff.

731
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: Aren't you just well?

732
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do love FLUI and I love John Ronson,

733
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 3: these kind of people who are just so curious about

734
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,359
Speaker 3: the world. Yeah, but bodybuilding was part of that. And

735
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 3: like most people, I think, I thought bodybuilders were probably

736
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 3: quite narcissistic and that they looked weird and ridiculous and

737
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 3: why would you want to do that? And then the

738
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 3: more I talked to these people who were doing it,

739
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 3: women specifically, I thought, oh god, this makes so much sense.

740
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 3: Often it attracts people who've had quite a chaotic childhood,

741
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 3: like inconsistent parenting or parental drug use. Often they might

742
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,919
Speaker 3: have got into their own drug use, eating disorders and

743
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,439
Speaker 3: they get to this point where they just desire, they

744
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 3: crave order, and bodybuilding is all about. It's great for OCD.

745
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 3: I mean, it's all about structure and disapn counting macros

746
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 3: and counting reps. You're really self punishing, to be frank,

747
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 3: but it can be It can feel like a relief

748
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 3: to have that much order and structure around you if

749
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 3: you're someone who didn't used to have that. So it

750
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 3: started to make a lot more sense to me, and

751
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 3: I thought, I would like to try this to see

752
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 3: if I can do it. But I always try and

753
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 3: tie something to a creative project, almost so I can

754
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 3: hide behind the creative projects and say I'm doing it

755
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 3: so I can write about it. Hahaha. I mean that

756
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 3: way part of anything else. If you sort of fail

757
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 3: at it, if you don't do well, you can chalk

758
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 3: it off well you can write about it and being

759
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 3: hilariously disastrous. Yah. You know. But so I ended up

760
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 3: competing and I did actually get a gold and a

761
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 3: bronze in different categories, and so you basically you you know,

762
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 3: you put on muscle for it was about a year

763
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 3: for me. Bit prior to that, I've been doing MUITEI,

764
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 3: so I had lean muscle and then you spend about

765
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 3: four months in the cutting phase. So essentially it's an

766
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 3: eating disorder given to you by a coach. Yeah.

767
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 2: I was going to say, I don't feel like this

768
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 2: would be fun.

769
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 3: All you do is think about food all the time.

770
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:16,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

771
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 3: So I mean you're probably on about fourteen hundred calories

772
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 3: a day, but you go to the gym twice a day. Yeah,

773
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 3: so you know, I'd go to the gym first thing

774
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 3: in the morning, burn off six hundred calories I didn't

775
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 3: have you, then go later and do the weights. So

776
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,959
Speaker 3: you're in a constant deficit and constantly thinking about food

777
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 3: fastoned sugar specifically, and what you're going to eat when

778
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 3: it's all finishes. And so I got down to seven

779
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 3: point nine percent body fat, which is really unhealthy. Yeah.

780
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 2: I've since sun pickies though, great.

781
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 3: Pickies, And it's incredible to see your body change from

782
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 3: day to day and always nooks and crannies come up

783
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 3: that you didn't even know exist because you're so lean.

784
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, all these like all small muscles I imagine muscles

785
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 1: on muscles. So okay, So how did it feel to

786
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: compete and win and like have a really good result.

787
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,479
Speaker 3: I was so excited. I just wanted to it didn't

788
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 3: I didn't feel like I had much skin in the

789
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 3: game in a way, because I knew I wasn't going

790
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 3: to do it once and I knew if it went

791
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 3: horribly wrong that that's a story. So I was just

792
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 3: so looking forward to getting on the stage, especially because

793
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 3: you're backstage. Rages always run over the time and by

794
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 3: the time it was my name is called all my

795
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 3: number or other. Yeah, I just strutted out like I

796
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 3: forgot all the posing. Really, I mean, I did it,

797
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 3: but I did it like someone who's really proud of themselves,

798
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 3: like a year old.

799
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 2: I love that, as you should have.

800
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I was seeing a figure category which is

801
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 3: all kind of like wonder woman posing. Yeah, And I

802
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 3: just looked proud as punch. I wasn't really giving it

803
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 3: any eventhy kind of the sexy stuff.

804
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: Proud as punch is good. And I have to ask,

805
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:56,479
Speaker 2: what was your first meal?

806
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 3: Well, that was a really bad move. Like you old

807
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 3: in advance by the pros, You've got to reverse out

808
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 3: of this, which means almost is almost like another four

809
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 3: months just building up the calories gradually, not introducing any

810
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 3: wild wacking new foods you've only been on like white

811
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 3: and green foods for four months essentially chicken, yeah, chicken, broccoli,

812
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 3: maybe the odd bit of ava, oh.

813
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you wouldn't even cook it in olive oil,

814
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 2: would you? Oh my?

815
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, fish, whitefish, a bit of porridge and so. But

816
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 3: my first meal was pasta bread cake, sucking tons of it.

817
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: I was like this, and you're gonna have diarrhea, right,

818
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: I would have gone straight through.

819
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 3: I can't remember. If no, I think the opposite probably

820
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 3: don't come out of about a year. I can't remember anyway.

821
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 3: Then you carry on like that for you know, weeks

822
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,280
Speaker 3: or months because you're just like a kid let loosenerwe.

823
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: But also on a like physiological level, your body would

824
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: have just been like.

825
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 3: What it's like is yes, because you've gone into starvation modes,

826
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 3: so it wants to I didn't put on shiploads of weight,

827
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,239
Speaker 3: but it's like you've got this brand new kind of

828
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 3: delicate ecosystem in you, like a beautiful ocean ecosystem or something,

829
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 3: and then you've just like driven a tanker through it.

830
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, like an atomic bomb.

831
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so you don't realize how much damage it

832
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 3: can do. But it basically all the stress of losing

833
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 3: that way and then and then not you know, backing

834
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 3: out of it properly knocks my progesterone out almost completely.

835
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 3: So I was easterg and dominant. That can just cause

836
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 3: absolute havoc. And so for a year and a half

837
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 3: I had red panda eyes from itching and soreness and

838
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 3: histamine and it looks like a good fifteen years older.

839
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 1: I get excellent stuff around my eyes me ten years

840
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,080
Speaker 1: straight away until you like calm it. And I was

841
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: putting cold compresses to eastergen dominance as well.

842
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 3: POS not sure what pters is.

843
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: That's I'm an Eastern dominance thing where you it's linked

844
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 1: to blood glucose levels, but it's also where.

845
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,399
Speaker 3: You over you can get CYS on your ovar east

846
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 3: and I've been really lucky on that front. So for me,

847
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 3: eastergen dominance always has been about allergies, histamine, probably mass cell. Yeah,

848
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 3: so's it's kind of like it looks like an affliction,

849
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 3: but I'm lucky enough to have not had any of

850
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: the other things that can happen five boys, et cetera.

851
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, how lucky, well, weirdly lucky in a weird way. Yeah,

852
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: oh my goodness.

853
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, as a nutritionist, I could talk to you

854
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: about this all day long, but it was I was

855
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: also looking at your photos and you've got the highlight

856
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: reel on your Insta of that phase of bodybuilding, and

857
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 1: I was like this, I can see the addiction side

858
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 1: of it too, like you, because you'd start seeing results,

859
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: I imagine after like four to six weeks, and then

860
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: you just be like all right, I'm locked in, Like.

861
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I lost probably probably about ten k

862
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 3: those in four months.

863
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty healthy though, that rate.

864
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, except yeah, going down to seven point nine body

865
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 3: fat was not because a healthy range would be something

866
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 3: like twenty two to twenty five. Totally.

867
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: But I mean as in, it wasn't like you dropped

868
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: ten kg yeah, like three weeks.

869
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 3: Yeah. But I have seen a female fitness coach on

870
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 3: install your I respect saying, look, if you can see

871
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 3: all of women's abs rather than maybe just the top two,

872
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 3: that's a really unhealthy listen. Yeah. Yeah, I might get

873
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 3: some pushback for that, but I would agree it. No.

874
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: No, I'm my Nutraath always told me that I have

875
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: history reading disorders, and I would love it when I

876
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: could see all my abs and he was like, well,

877
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: now you're at the wrong way to be a woman,

878
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: and it's going to step stuff up your cycles.

879
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 2: And I lost my periods right away.

880
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think once those last apps come in

881
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 3: at the bottom, you probably even if it hasn't happened

882
00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 3: straight away, you are on a path to yeah, hormonal disruption.

883
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:01,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent.

884
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: I mean, how great though that you've got this like

885
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: understanding awareness.

886
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 2: Would you ever do it again?

887
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 3: I think there are ways of doing it more healthily? Yeah,

888
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 3: but no, because essentially it's quite a selfish sports. I mean,

889
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 3: you know, Frank and I our social life had to

890
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 3: just disappear for four months. Yeah. I often feel like

891
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 3: once I've done something once, I don't want to do

892
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 3: it again anyway. So yeah, part of me was scent

893
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 3: is like, you know, you can do it now, but yeah.

894
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: No, no, And also like you would have had so

895
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: much body awareness and like and there would have been

896
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: so many cool things that you learned from that.

897
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: Now.

898
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 2: I could talk to you, Jenny all day long. I

899
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 2: am really excited for you with this book. What is

900
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 2: your hope for your book?

901
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 3: I just really like hearing back from people when they've

902
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 3: read it. I put out a book back in twenty

903
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 3: seventeen called Women of Substances Journey into I never want

904
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 3: to read this next thank you?

905
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, mail, you're publisher, and ask for a coffee.

906
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 3: But it really spoke to people, and I got a

907
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 3: lot of really incredible, heartfelt correspondence. Some of that was

908
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 3: really tricky as an introvert to deal with, like, oh

909
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 3: my god, someone's telling me their life story. I'm not qualified.

910
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 3: I don't know all the right things to say. But

911
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 3: at the same time, to see something just have an

912
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 3: impact and realize people connect with it and it can

913
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 3: be helpful. That's kind of what you want as a journalist,

914
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 3: Like you want to make sense of things, and then

915
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 3: if you think you've done that, you want to put

916
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 3: it out into the world and hope that it does

917
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 3: some good. Hm.

918
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's a pretty good mantra to hair.

919
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

920
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to have all the details for this

921
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: book in the show notes. I can't wait to hear

922
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: how this book goes. Please stay in touch with me.

923
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll do, of course.

924
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 2: And I'm so flipping rap that you and I made

925
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 2: this happen. Yeah, it's a lot of back and forth.

926
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 2: We got there.

927
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 3: Yeah I was on long haul flights, but yeah.

928
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: Thank you to your big shout out to your publicist

929
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: task for being like hunting me down and like being.

930
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 2: Like Ola, come on, so lovely to have you on

931
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: the pod.

932
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: My friend and I will absolutely now go into a

933
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: party like I have a full swat team plan going

934
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: in there.

935
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 3: So thank you, oh thanks for having me on. Would

936
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 3: appreciate it.

937
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 1: That's a wrap on another episode of Fearlessly Failing. As always,

938
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 1: thank you to our guests, and let's continue the conversation

939
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: on Instagram.

940
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 2: I'm at Yamo lollaberry.

941
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,919
Speaker 1: This potty my word for podcast is available on all

942
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 1: streaming platforms.

943
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 2: I'd love it if you could

944
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: Subscribe, rape and comment, and of course spread the love.