Speaker 1: Already and this is the DAILYA, this is the Dailias.
Speaker 2: Oh now it makes sense. Hello, and welcome to the Dahlias.
Speaker 2: I'm emma, i'm zara.
Speaker 3: The federal government has backflipped on its decision not to
Speaker 3: include questions about sexual orientation in the next census.
Speaker 2: It follows mounting pressure from.
Speaker 3: LGBTQ plus advocates and several government MPs.
Speaker 4: In today's deep dive, we're going to take you through
Speaker 4: the census controversy, the backlash, and most recently the backflip.
Speaker 4: But first, m what's making headlines today.
Speaker 3: The bodies of six Israeli hostages taken by Hamas on
Speaker 3: October seven have been recovered in Gaza. According to Israeli officials,
Speaker 3: defense forces were led to the bodies of three men
Speaker 3: and three women following an operation lasting several hours on
Speaker 3: Saturday afternoon. One of the hostages, kidnapped Baijamas from the
Speaker 3: Nova Music festival in southern Israel last year, was a
Speaker 3: US citizen whose parents recently spoke at the Democratic National
Speaker 3: Convention in Chicago. It's not yet clear when and how
Speaker 3: the hostages were killed. It comes amid continued efforts to
Speaker 3: negotiate a hostage release and cease fire deal.
Speaker 4: Senior European Union officials have refused to recognize the legitimacy
Speaker 4: of Nicholas Maduro as Venezuela's leader. Protests and political tensions
Speaker 4: have continued in Venezuela since claims of election interference After
Speaker 4: its recent vote. The Venezuelan government has insisted Maduro won
Speaker 4: the election. However, opposing candidate Edmundo Gonzalez declared victory after
Speaker 4: an independent vote count. The Supreme Court has been accused
Speaker 4: of corruption after it ruled in favour of Meduro's victory.
Speaker 4: During a meeting of EU officials, the union's vice president said,
Speaker 4: quote clearly Madua cannot be recognized as a legitimate winner
Speaker 4: of this presidentidential election, that the situation in Venezuela was
Speaker 4: quote critical.
Speaker 3: X has been banned in Brazil after a Supreme Court
Speaker 3: decision to suspend the platform. The country's top court ordered
Speaker 3: Telco's to block access to the popular platform formerly known
Speaker 3: as Twitter, over concern around right wing content and misinformation.
Speaker 3: It comes after Elon Musk's refusal to comply with local laws.
Speaker 3: Several months of negotiations ended in the mass outage when
Speaker 3: Musk failed to meet a deadline to put forward a
Speaker 3: new legal representative for x in the region. Brazil has
Speaker 3: the fifth largest digital population in the world. Musk has
Speaker 3: condemned the suspension order as quote illegal political censorship by
Speaker 3: what he called an evil dictator cosplaying as a judge.
Speaker 4: In today's good news, the FBI has returned stolen artifacts,
Speaker 4: including sacred human skulls, back to Vanuatu. The sacred artifacts
Speaker 4: were returned through the US Embassy in Canberra. An FBI
Speaker 4: representative in the pacifics said, quote, there's no better feeling
Speaker 4: than returning these artifacts to their rightful owners. We are
Speaker 4: still a couple of years away from the next census,
Speaker 4: and I forgive you if you don't know when that is,
Speaker 4: because I can't say that. I think about when the
Speaker 4: next census is very often, but it's in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 4: And last week it really dominated the headlines. Emma, why
Speaker 4: was that the case?
Speaker 2: That is right?
Speaker 3: The headlines have related to whether or not the twenty
Speaker 3: twenty six census would include questions about sexual orientation, gender identity,
Speaker 3: and variations in sex characteristics.
Speaker 2: It felt like there were new updates.
Speaker 3: And twists and turns rolling in by the day on
Speaker 3: this one culminating in a backflip from the government.
Speaker 2: But we're going to make sense of all of it
Speaker 2: for you today.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think that a good starting point is
Speaker 4: to just explain what we're talking about when we were
Speaker 4: referred to the censors.
Speaker 1: So let's start there. What's the census.
Speaker 2: So every five.
Speaker 3: Years, the Australian Bureau of Statistics that's the ABS conducts
Speaker 3: a national survey known as the Census. It captures details
Speaker 3: and trends about Australia's population, so things like health, age, housing,
Speaker 3: cultural background and religion. Now, the ABS says that governments
Speaker 3: use that data from the Census to make important decisions,
Speaker 3: but it goes even further than that. Census data really
Speaker 3: provides a snapshot of life in Australia at a certain
Speaker 3: moment in time, and those findings are used to inform
Speaker 3: all sorts of decision making, so they're used across community groups,
Speaker 3: not for profit organizations, businesses, and the data is also
Speaker 3: interpreted by researchers and academics to support various studies into
Speaker 3: different research fields.
Speaker 2: So census data.
Speaker 3: Provides information to inform all of that, but it also
Speaker 3: provides a really important comparison tool. So you know what
Speaker 3: changes between each census, What do we learn about how
Speaker 3: Australia is, changes.
Speaker 4: From demographics, changes all of those sorts of things.
Speaker 3: But and this is really at the heart of what
Speaker 3: we're talking about today, the census has never included questions
Speaker 3: or has never captured data on sexual orientation or gender identity.
Speaker 4: When this story started to dominate headlines, I was a
Speaker 4: bit confused because I remember the last census was in
Speaker 4: twenty twenty one. It was in the throes of a
Speaker 4: very dark lockdowne and I remember there being this similar
Speaker 4: concern at the time about a lack of LGBTQ plus
Speaker 4: representation in that sensus. What happened from all of those
Speaker 4: conversations happening back in twenty twenty one to it now
Speaker 4: being in the headlines again.
Speaker 3: Exactly so, like previous surveys, the twenty twenty one Census
Speaker 3: didn't include questions about sexual orientation, gender identity, or variations
Speaker 3: in sex characteristics so for example, intersex people. And in
Speaker 3: August twenty twenty three, two years later, the ABS issued
Speaker 3: a statement of regret.
Speaker 4: What's that presumably quite literally, just means they regret something.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, as you kind of touched on there were
Speaker 3: numerous complaints about the lack of LGBTQ plus representation in
Speaker 3: the questions of the twenty twenty one survey. So following
Speaker 3: those complaints, the ABS said, it recognizes that some members
Speaker 3: of the lgbtiq plus community experienced hurt, stress, anguish, and
Speaker 3: other negative reactions to some census questions.
Speaker 4: Okay, so that was in twenty twenty three, that statement
Speaker 4: of regret by the ABS. What happened after that, Like,
Speaker 4: was there any process to I guess remedy If you
Speaker 4: regret something or issue a statement of regret, one would
Speaker 4: presume you then intend to remedy it moving forward. What
Speaker 4: did that process look like?
Speaker 3: Well, that process certainly looked as though a kind of
Speaker 3: remedy was underway. Towards addressing those concerns, the ABS launched
Speaker 3: an lgbtiq plus Expert Advisory Committee for the twenty twenty
Speaker 3: six Census to quote provide guidance an input into the
Speaker 3: census topic, review and framing of census questions and the
Speaker 3: way that census data is processed and disseminated. By the
Speaker 3: end of twenty twenty three, the ABS ended up consulting
Speaker 3: with more than one thousand people and organizations on future
Speaker 3: census questions from that. The ABS also said it was
Speaker 3: considering a question about sexual orientation due to a quote
Speaker 3: lack of a reliable evidence base. It also said it
Speaker 3: was considering adding sex recorded at birth as a question
Speaker 3: to the twenty twenty six census and updating response categories
Speaker 3: to quote improve data quality.
Speaker 4: You mentioned there this question of sex recorded at birth.
Speaker 4: Can you just elaborate a bit on why that was
Speaker 4: an important thing to have captured, or at least why
Speaker 4: the advice was that might be important to capture.
Speaker 3: Yes, so separate questions about sex assigned at birth and
Speaker 3: gender would give us a specific data set relating to
Speaker 3: transgender people and the number of transgender people in Australia.
Speaker 3: So the twenty twenty one census did include dude one
Speaker 3: question about sex that had three gender options male, female,
Speaker 3: or non binary sex, and that was the first time
Speaker 3: a non binary option was included in the census. The
Speaker 3: ABS said that that was to allow respondents to participate
Speaker 3: in the census when the male and female sex categories
Speaker 3: might not accurately describe their sex, but that new category
Speaker 3: was not intended or designed to collect data on gender,
Speaker 3: so therefore the number of people who reported a sex
Speaker 3: of non binary on the twenty twenty one census. Quote
Speaker 3: could not be used as a measure of gender diversity,
Speaker 3: non binary, gender, or transgender communities.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: According to the ABS, sex is defined as being based
Speaker 3: upon a person's sex characteristics, such as their chromosomes, hormones,
Speaker 3: and reproductive organs. A person's gender is about social and
Speaker 3: cultural differences in identity, expression, and experience as a man, woman,
Speaker 3: or non binary person. As gender is not currently listed
Speaker 3: as a topic on the Sense and Statistics Regulation, the
Speaker 3: ABS said it did not ask this question on the
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one census.
Speaker 4: Okay, so let's just recap where we're at.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I feel like.
Speaker 4: You know, every single one of these is a huge
Speaker 4: point to dive into. But essentially what happened was the
Speaker 4: last time that there was a census was in twenty
Speaker 4: twenty one. In that census, there were a number of
Speaker 4: things that different groups felt were not included and therefore
Speaker 4: they did not feel represented members of the LGBTQ plus community.
Speaker 4: Following that survey, the ABS did issue a statement of
Speaker 4: regret and said that they were embarking on a journey
Speaker 4: in which I guess address these concerns, and one of
Speaker 4: them was about the fact that the true number of
Speaker 4: transgender people in this country was not being adequately or
Speaker 4: accurately represented in the census. Okay, so the ABS said
Speaker 4: it was considering adding a sex recorded, a birth question,
Speaker 4: a sexual orientation question. Was there anything else that you
Speaker 4: know leading up to the next census we heard from
Speaker 4: the ABS they were really looking.
Speaker 3: At There was a third proposal, and this will become
Speaker 3: important when we talk about the government's latest position on
Speaker 3: the twenty twenty six sensus. The ABS noted a significant
Speaker 3: data gap on those with variations of sex characteristics, like
Speaker 3: intersex people. It said understanding the number of people with
Speaker 3: differences to their innate, genetic, hormonal, or physical sex characteristics
Speaker 3: can help plan resources to support individuals and their families.
Speaker 3: The ABS said in a statement, the small size of
Speaker 3: this population group means that sample surveys are unable to
Speaker 3: produce both national and lower level estimates.
Speaker 4: And I mean, I think this really goes to the
Speaker 4: heart of why so many members of the LGBTQ plus
Speaker 4: community have felt so strongly about this story. You know,
Speaker 4: so often these sorts of conversations get dragged into kind
Speaker 4: of culture war territory. But all this is meant to
Speaker 4: be doing is capturing the reality of what this country
Speaker 4: looks like and where you know, resourcing should go, and
Speaker 4: kind of just getting a true representation of the demographic
Speaker 4: so that when those conversations happen, there is actually an
Speaker 4: evidence bace that you know, people can point to and say,
Speaker 4: these are the numbers we're talking about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's surprising to me this kind of bias that
Speaker 3: has been attached to the idea of collecting data. I
Speaker 3: think the argument about why the questions would be included
Speaker 3: is about providing a picture of modern Australia.
Speaker 1: A snapshot exactly where we're at.
Speaker 4: Okay, And so we've spoken a lot about the ABS
Speaker 4: and the work that they've been doing. Why has this
Speaker 4: conversation now come up in the news recently?
Speaker 3: So after the ABS conducted that analysis and consultation that
Speaker 3: we've gone through. The Labor Party said last year that
Speaker 3: it was committed to making sure quote the twenty twenty
Speaker 3: sixth Census gathers relevant data on LGBTIQ plus Australians. So
Speaker 3: we've got that on the record from the government last year.
Speaker 3: But then on Monday a week ago, it's said it
Speaker 3: would not be including those abs updates that were recommended
Speaker 3: on sexual or orientation and gender in the next survey.
Speaker 3: Assistant Employment Minister Andrew Lee told TDA it is the
Speaker 3: decision of the government that there will quote be no
Speaker 3: change to the topics in the next census which will
Speaker 3: be held in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 4: Okay, and that triggered just immediate and quite visceral backlash
Speaker 4: from the Australian community. Can you walk us through the
Speaker 4: response that followed from the government coming out with this position.
Speaker 3: Yeah, as you say, the fallout was pretty widespread and immediate.
Speaker 3: National advocacy group Equality Australia said the government had quote
Speaker 3: betrayed lgbtiq plus people around.
Speaker 2: Australia. CEO and A Brown said the.
Speaker 3: Community was again going to be quote rendered invisible in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty six because the census wasn't going to ask
Speaker 3: appropriate questions about their lives, and the CEO of lgbtiq
Speaker 3: plus Health Australia, Niki Bath, said that there would still
Speaker 3: be significant data gaps needed to address the pervasive health
Speaker 3: and well being disparities in the community.
Speaker 4: So very strong response there from the community, but there
Speaker 4: was also a very strong response from inside the government,
Speaker 4: and I mean, I think it should be said that
Speaker 4: it's fairly rare.
Speaker 1: For members of the government.
Speaker 4: We know that the Labor Party has rules about crossing
Speaker 4: the floor and all of these sorts of things, and
Speaker 4: this wasn't a piece of legislation, but still it was
Speaker 4: quite remarkable to see a number of members come out
Speaker 4: and say we disagree with the government's position. Can you
Speaker 4: talk me through some of the political fallout.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we saw a group of six Labor MPs
Speaker 3: come forward in the end criticizing their party over the decision.
Speaker 3: As you say, not a piece of legislation, but still
Speaker 3: rare to see so many people within Labor criticizing a
Speaker 3: Labor decision. That movement was led by Labor MP Josh Burns.
Speaker 3: He told TDA that the community deserves to be counted.
Speaker 3: He said the data collected in the census helps with
Speaker 3: government decision making and the delivery of services, and therefore
Speaker 3: I think we should reconsider the questions we put forward
Speaker 3: in the twenty twenty sixth sense. Some Coalition MPs also
Speaker 3: supported adding the questions, but Opposition leader Peter Dutton said
Speaker 3: that he felt pretty happy with the existing survey. And
Speaker 3: he questioned what he called a woke agenda. The Greens
Speaker 3: accused the government of failing to do the bare minimum
Speaker 3: in data collection when it comes to the census. Green's
Speaker 3: lgbtiq plus spokesperson Stephen Bates said the lack of data
Speaker 3: on lgbtiq plus Australians was stalling necessary reforms to healthcare
Speaker 3: and education. By Friday morning, Australia's Sex Discrimination Commissioner had
Speaker 3: also weighed in. So Doctor Anna Cody, who is the Commissioner,
Speaker 3: wrote a letter to the Assistant Minister for Employment Andrew Lee,
Speaker 3: talking about the sort of implications of the decision for
Speaker 3: the health, wellbeing and general equality of the community of
Speaker 3: LGBTQ plus Australians as well as their families. She pointed
Speaker 3: to the kind of significant health disparities faced by the
Speaker 3: lgbtiq plus community compared to hetero and cisgender Australians and
Speaker 3: emphasized the message that we'd heard from a lot of
Speaker 3: other groups just about the importance of accurate population data
Speaker 3: to inform decisions on you know, health and mental health services.
Speaker 3: She said it was a matter of practical, effective policy.
Speaker 4: So you've painted a picture of just significant pressure mounting
Speaker 4: on the government kind of from every angle, both within
Speaker 4: their own party, you know, opposition, Greens, people outside the system.
Speaker 4: How did the government respond?
Speaker 2: So? Anthony Albanezi, the Prime Minister, did.
Speaker 3: An interview with ABC Radio on Friday morning where he
Speaker 3: said there will be a question about sexual preference in
Speaker 3: the next census, depending on the findings of ABS testing.
Speaker 3: So to unpack that, he said the government had been
Speaker 3: in discussions with the ABS and that they were going
Speaker 3: to test for a new question. He said that would
Speaker 3: be quote one question about sexuality, sexual preference. Albanezy said
Speaker 3: that the ABS will be testing making sure quote that
Speaker 3: people will have the option of not answering it or
Speaker 3: if they prefer not to answer, And he said that
Speaker 3: as long as the testing quote goes okay and a
Speaker 3: question can be developed in a way that's sensitive and
Speaker 3: that gets the information that is required, the ABS will
Speaker 3: be testing that with a draft question. Now, I do
Speaker 3: want to point out that Albaneze's comments only related to
Speaker 3: a question about sexual orientation. He did not imply that
Speaker 3: there will be any kind of testing on questions to
Speaker 3: do with gender identity or variations in sex characteristics, which
Speaker 3: were the proposals suggested by the ABS after that statement
Speaker 3: of regret in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 4: Okay, so the government essentially backflipped. They came out with
Speaker 4: a position, it was deeply unpopular and they've now kind
Speaker 4: of walked it back. Was there any explanation given?
Speaker 3: Albaneze pretty much downplayed it. He said that the government
Speaker 3: thinks the census has been pretty effective in the past.
Speaker 3: He noted what he thought about the censors being the
Speaker 3: incorrect vehicle to engage with the community across various issues,
Speaker 3: and he downplayed the census, saying that it's not the
Speaker 3: be all and end all. He also noted other data
Speaker 3: collection strategies that are available to us now, including on
Speaker 3: our phones and through social media, so that arguably felt
Speaker 3: like a little bit of a distraction. He did defend
Speaker 3: Labour's track record on anti discrimination legislation, though he noted
Speaker 3: the survey isn't for two years, and I think a
Speaker 3: good point that was made is that there is an
Speaker 3: election to get through next year. The survey comes the
Speaker 3: year after that, so a lot could change in the
Speaker 3: makeup of the government between now and then. But I
Speaker 3: do want to note there was some discussion around the
Speaker 3: government not including questions representing LGBTQ plus Australia in the
Speaker 3: next census to avoid discrimination and harmful conversations. But kind
Speaker 3: of ironically you could say that is where the conversation
Speaker 3: ended up going. The sexist Crimination Commissioner pointed out that
Speaker 3: failing to address those concerns identified by the ABS and
Speaker 3: BUY advocacy groups after the twenty twenty one survey risked
Speaker 3: doing exactly that. Commissioner Cody said she was concerned in
Speaker 3: the face of rising negative retrick that it could strengthen
Speaker 3: the voices of discrimination and division. That quote seek to
Speaker 3: disrupt the nation's social cohesion. I thought this was a
Speaker 3: really strong quote from the Commissioner to finish on. While
Speaker 3: we must seek to minimize harm, the answer cannot be
Speaker 3: to do nothing. LGBTIQA plus Australians and their rights must
Speaker 3: be protected and supported, as must the rights of all Australians.
Speaker 4: M a really interesting deep dive, and I know that
Speaker 4: a lot of people would have seen these headlines but
Speaker 4: perhaps not understood.
Speaker 1: All of that context.
Speaker 4: So thank you for explaining that and thank you for
Speaker 4: joining us for another day on the Daily ODS.
Speaker 1: If you learned something from this.
Speaker 4: Episode, feel free to leave a covent on Spotify or
Speaker 4: wherever you're listening. If you're watching us on YouTube, we
Speaker 4: love to know what you're thinking and feeling about the
Speaker 4: topics that we cover here at TDA. We'll be back
Speaker 4: again tomorrow, but until then, have a fantastic Monday. My
Speaker 4: name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung
Speaker 4: Calcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that
Speaker 4: this podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl
Speaker 4: people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres s
Speaker 4: right island and nations. We pay our respects to the
Speaker 4: first peoples of these countries, both past and present,