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Speaker 1: Already and this is the DAILYA, this is the Dailias.

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Speaker 2: Oh now it makes sense. Hello, and welcome to the Dahlias.

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Speaker 2: I'm emma, i'm zara.

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Speaker 3: The federal government has backflipped on its decision not to

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Speaker 3: include questions about sexual orientation in the next census.

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Speaker 2: It follows mounting pressure from.

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Speaker 3: LGBTQ plus advocates and several government MPs.

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Speaker 4: In today's deep dive, we're going to take you through

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Speaker 4: the census controversy, the backlash, and most recently the backflip.

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Speaker 4: But first, m what's making headlines today.

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Speaker 3: The bodies of six Israeli hostages taken by Hamas on

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Speaker 3: October seven have been recovered in Gaza. According to Israeli officials,

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Speaker 3: defense forces were led to the bodies of three men

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Speaker 3: and three women following an operation lasting several hours on

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Speaker 3: Saturday afternoon. One of the hostages, kidnapped Baijamas from the

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Speaker 3: Nova Music festival in southern Israel last year, was a

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Speaker 3: US citizen whose parents recently spoke at the Democratic National

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Speaker 3: Convention in Chicago. It's not yet clear when and how

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Speaker 3: the hostages were killed. It comes amid continued efforts to

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Speaker 3: negotiate a hostage release and cease fire deal.

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Speaker 4: Senior European Union officials have refused to recognize the legitimacy

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Speaker 4: of Nicholas Maduro as Venezuela's leader. Protests and political tensions

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Speaker 4: have continued in Venezuela since claims of election interference After

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Speaker 4: its recent vote. The Venezuelan government has insisted Maduro won

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Speaker 4: the election. However, opposing candidate Edmundo Gonzalez declared victory after

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Speaker 4: an independent vote count. The Supreme Court has been accused

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Speaker 4: of corruption after it ruled in favour of Meduro's victory.

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Speaker 4: During a meeting of EU officials, the union's vice president said,

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Speaker 4: quote clearly Madua cannot be recognized as a legitimate winner

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Speaker 4: of this presidentidential election, that the situation in Venezuela was

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Speaker 4: quote critical.

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Speaker 3: X has been banned in Brazil after a Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: decision to suspend the platform. The country's top court ordered

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Speaker 3: Telco's to block access to the popular platform formerly known

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Speaker 3: as Twitter, over concern around right wing content and misinformation.

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Speaker 3: It comes after Elon Musk's refusal to comply with local laws.

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Speaker 3: Several months of negotiations ended in the mass outage when

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Speaker 3: Musk failed to meet a deadline to put forward a

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Speaker 3: new legal representative for x in the region. Brazil has

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Speaker 3: the fifth largest digital population in the world. Musk has

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Speaker 3: condemned the suspension order as quote illegal political censorship by

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Speaker 3: what he called an evil dictator cosplaying as a judge.

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Speaker 4: In today's good news, the FBI has returned stolen artifacts,

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Speaker 4: including sacred human skulls, back to Vanuatu. The sacred artifacts

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Speaker 4: were returned through the US Embassy in Canberra. An FBI

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Speaker 4: representative in the pacifics said, quote, there's no better feeling

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Speaker 4: than returning these artifacts to their rightful owners. We are

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Speaker 4: still a couple of years away from the next census,

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Speaker 4: and I forgive you if you don't know when that is,

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Speaker 4: because I can't say that. I think about when the

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Speaker 4: next census is very often, but it's in twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 4: And last week it really dominated the headlines. Emma, why

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Speaker 4: was that the case?

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Speaker 2: That is right?

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Speaker 3: The headlines have related to whether or not the twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty six census would include questions about sexual orientation, gender identity,

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Speaker 3: and variations in sex characteristics.

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Speaker 2: It felt like there were new updates.

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Speaker 3: And twists and turns rolling in by the day on

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Speaker 3: this one culminating in a backflip from the government.

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Speaker 2: But we're going to make sense of all of it

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Speaker 2: for you today.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think that a good starting point is

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Speaker 4: to just explain what we're talking about when we were

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Speaker 4: referred to the censors.

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Speaker 1: So let's start there. What's the census.

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Speaker 2: So every five.

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Speaker 3: Years, the Australian Bureau of Statistics that's the ABS conducts

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Speaker 3: a national survey known as the Census. It captures details

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Speaker 3: and trends about Australia's population, so things like health, age, housing,

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Speaker 3: cultural background and religion. Now, the ABS says that governments

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Speaker 3: use that data from the Census to make important decisions,

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Speaker 3: but it goes even further than that. Census data really

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Speaker 3: provides a snapshot of life in Australia at a certain

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Speaker 3: moment in time, and those findings are used to inform

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Speaker 3: all sorts of decision making, so they're used across community groups,

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Speaker 3: not for profit organizations, businesses, and the data is also

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Speaker 3: interpreted by researchers and academics to support various studies into

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Speaker 3: different research fields.

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Speaker 2: So census data.

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Speaker 3: Provides information to inform all of that, but it also

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Speaker 3: provides a really important comparison tool. So you know what

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Speaker 3: changes between each census, What do we learn about how

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Speaker 3: Australia is, changes.

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Speaker 4: From demographics, changes all of those sorts of things.

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Speaker 3: But and this is really at the heart of what

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Speaker 3: we're talking about today, the census has never included questions

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Speaker 3: or has never captured data on sexual orientation or gender identity.

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Speaker 4: When this story started to dominate headlines, I was a

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Speaker 4: bit confused because I remember the last census was in

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty one. It was in the throes of a

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Speaker 4: very dark lockdowne and I remember there being this similar

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Speaker 4: concern at the time about a lack of LGBTQ plus

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Speaker 4: representation in that sensus. What happened from all of those

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Speaker 4: conversations happening back in twenty twenty one to it now

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Speaker 4: being in the headlines again.

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Speaker 3: Exactly so, like previous surveys, the twenty twenty one Census

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Speaker 3: didn't include questions about sexual orientation, gender identity, or variations

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Speaker 3: in sex characteristics so for example, intersex people. And in

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Speaker 3: August twenty twenty three, two years later, the ABS issued

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Speaker 3: a statement of regret.

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Speaker 4: What's that presumably quite literally, just means they regret something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, as you kind of touched on there were

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Speaker 3: numerous complaints about the lack of LGBTQ plus representation in

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Speaker 3: the questions of the twenty twenty one survey. So following

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Speaker 3: those complaints, the ABS said, it recognizes that some members

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Speaker 3: of the lgbtiq plus community experienced hurt, stress, anguish, and

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Speaker 3: other negative reactions to some census questions.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so that was in twenty twenty three, that statement

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Speaker 4: of regret by the ABS. What happened after that, Like,

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Speaker 4: was there any process to I guess remedy If you

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Speaker 4: regret something or issue a statement of regret, one would

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Speaker 4: presume you then intend to remedy it moving forward. What

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Speaker 4: did that process look like?

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Speaker 3: Well, that process certainly looked as though a kind of

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Speaker 3: remedy was underway. Towards addressing those concerns, the ABS launched

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Speaker 3: an lgbtiq plus Expert Advisory Committee for the twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: six Census to quote provide guidance an input into the

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Speaker 3: census topic, review and framing of census questions and the

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Speaker 3: way that census data is processed and disseminated. By the

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Speaker 3: end of twenty twenty three, the ABS ended up consulting

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Speaker 3: with more than one thousand people and organizations on future

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Speaker 3: census questions from that. The ABS also said it was

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Speaker 3: considering a question about sexual orientation due to a quote

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Speaker 3: lack of a reliable evidence base. It also said it

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Speaker 3: was considering adding sex recorded at birth as a question

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Speaker 3: to the twenty twenty six census and updating response categories

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Speaker 3: to quote improve data quality.

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Speaker 4: You mentioned there this question of sex recorded at birth.

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Speaker 4: Can you just elaborate a bit on why that was

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Speaker 4: an important thing to have captured, or at least why

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Speaker 4: the advice was that might be important to capture.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so separate questions about sex assigned at birth and

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Speaker 3: gender would give us a specific data set relating to

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Speaker 3: transgender people and the number of transgender people in Australia.

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Speaker 3: So the twenty twenty one census did include dude one

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Speaker 3: question about sex that had three gender options male, female,

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Speaker 3: or non binary sex, and that was the first time

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Speaker 3: a non binary option was included in the census. The

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Speaker 3: ABS said that that was to allow respondents to participate

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Speaker 3: in the census when the male and female sex categories

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Speaker 3: might not accurately describe their sex, but that new category

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Speaker 3: was not intended or designed to collect data on gender,

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Speaker 3: so therefore the number of people who reported a sex

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Speaker 3: of non binary on the twenty twenty one census. Quote

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Speaker 3: could not be used as a measure of gender diversity,

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Speaker 3: non binary, gender, or transgender communities.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: According to the ABS, sex is defined as being based

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Speaker 3: upon a person's sex characteristics, such as their chromosomes, hormones,

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Speaker 3: and reproductive organs. A person's gender is about social and

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Speaker 3: cultural differences in identity, expression, and experience as a man, woman,

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Speaker 3: or non binary person. As gender is not currently listed

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Speaker 3: as a topic on the Sense and Statistics Regulation, the

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Speaker 3: ABS said it did not ask this question on the

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty one census.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so let's just recap where we're at.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I feel like.

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Speaker 4: You know, every single one of these is a huge

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Speaker 4: point to dive into. But essentially what happened was the

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Speaker 4: last time that there was a census was in twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty one. In that census, there were a number of

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Speaker 4: things that different groups felt were not included and therefore

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Speaker 4: they did not feel represented members of the LGBTQ plus community.

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Speaker 4: Following that survey, the ABS did issue a statement of

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Speaker 4: regret and said that they were embarking on a journey

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Speaker 4: in which I guess address these concerns, and one of

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Speaker 4: them was about the fact that the true number of

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Speaker 4: transgender people in this country was not being adequately or

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Speaker 4: accurately represented in the census. Okay, so the ABS said

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Speaker 4: it was considering adding a sex recorded, a birth question,

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Speaker 4: a sexual orientation question. Was there anything else that you

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Speaker 4: know leading up to the next census we heard from

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Speaker 4: the ABS they were really looking.

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Speaker 3: At There was a third proposal, and this will become

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Speaker 3: important when we talk about the government's latest position on

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Speaker 3: the twenty twenty six sensus. The ABS noted a significant

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Speaker 3: data gap on those with variations of sex characteristics, like

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Speaker 3: intersex people. It said understanding the number of people with

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Speaker 3: differences to their innate, genetic, hormonal, or physical sex characteristics

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Speaker 3: can help plan resources to support individuals and their families.

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Speaker 3: The ABS said in a statement, the small size of

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Speaker 3: this population group means that sample surveys are unable to

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Speaker 3: produce both national and lower level estimates.

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Speaker 4: And I mean, I think this really goes to the

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Speaker 4: heart of why so many members of the LGBTQ plus

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Speaker 4: community have felt so strongly about this story. You know,

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Speaker 4: so often these sorts of conversations get dragged into kind

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Speaker 4: of culture war territory. But all this is meant to

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Speaker 4: be doing is capturing the reality of what this country

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Speaker 4: looks like and where you know, resourcing should go, and

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Speaker 4: kind of just getting a true representation of the demographic

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Speaker 4: so that when those conversations happen, there is actually an

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Speaker 4: evidence bace that you know, people can point to and say,

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Speaker 4: these are the numbers we're talking about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's surprising to me this kind of bias that

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Speaker 3: has been attached to the idea of collecting data. I

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Speaker 3: think the argument about why the questions would be included

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Speaker 3: is about providing a picture of modern Australia.

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Speaker 1: A snapshot exactly where we're at.

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Speaker 4: Okay, And so we've spoken a lot about the ABS

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Speaker 4: and the work that they've been doing. Why has this

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Speaker 4: conversation now come up in the news recently?

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Speaker 3: So after the ABS conducted that analysis and consultation that

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Speaker 3: we've gone through. The Labor Party said last year that

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Speaker 3: it was committed to making sure quote the twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: sixth Census gathers relevant data on LGBTIQ plus Australians. So

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Speaker 3: we've got that on the record from the government last year.

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Speaker 3: But then on Monday a week ago, it's said it

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Speaker 3: would not be including those abs updates that were recommended

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Speaker 3: on sexual or orientation and gender in the next survey.

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Speaker 3: Assistant Employment Minister Andrew Lee told TDA it is the

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Speaker 3: decision of the government that there will quote be no

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Speaker 3: change to the topics in the next census which will

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Speaker 3: be held in twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 4: Okay, and that triggered just immediate and quite visceral backlash

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Speaker 4: from the Australian community. Can you walk us through the

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Speaker 4: response that followed from the government coming out with this position.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, as you say, the fallout was pretty widespread and immediate.

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Speaker 3: National advocacy group Equality Australia said the government had quote

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Speaker 3: betrayed lgbtiq plus people around.

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Speaker 2: Australia. CEO and A Brown said the.

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Speaker 3: Community was again going to be quote rendered invisible in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty six because the census wasn't going to ask

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Speaker 3: appropriate questions about their lives, and the CEO of lgbtiq

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Speaker 3: plus Health Australia, Niki Bath, said that there would still

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Speaker 3: be significant data gaps needed to address the pervasive health

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Speaker 3: and well being disparities in the community.

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Speaker 4: So very strong response there from the community, but there

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Speaker 4: was also a very strong response from inside the government,

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Speaker 4: and I mean, I think it should be said that

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Speaker 4: it's fairly rare.

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Speaker 1: For members of the government.

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Speaker 4: We know that the Labor Party has rules about crossing

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Speaker 4: the floor and all of these sorts of things, and

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Speaker 4: this wasn't a piece of legislation, but still it was

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Speaker 4: quite remarkable to see a number of members come out

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Speaker 4: and say we disagree with the government's position. Can you

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Speaker 4: talk me through some of the political fallout.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So we saw a group of six Labor MPs

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Speaker 3: come forward in the end criticizing their party over the decision.

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Speaker 3: As you say, not a piece of legislation, but still

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Speaker 3: rare to see so many people within Labor criticizing a

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Speaker 3: Labor decision. That movement was led by Labor MP Josh Burns.

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Speaker 3: He told TDA that the community deserves to be counted.

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Speaker 3: He said the data collected in the census helps with

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Speaker 3: government decision making and the delivery of services, and therefore

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Speaker 3: I think we should reconsider the questions we put forward

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Speaker 3: in the twenty twenty sixth sense. Some Coalition MPs also

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Speaker 3: supported adding the questions, but Opposition leader Peter Dutton said

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Speaker 3: that he felt pretty happy with the existing survey. And

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Speaker 3: he questioned what he called a woke agenda. The Greens

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Speaker 3: accused the government of failing to do the bare minimum

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Speaker 3: in data collection when it comes to the census. Green's

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Speaker 3: lgbtiq plus spokesperson Stephen Bates said the lack of data

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Speaker 3: on lgbtiq plus Australians was stalling necessary reforms to healthcare

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Speaker 3: and education. By Friday morning, Australia's Sex Discrimination Commissioner had

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Speaker 3: also weighed in. So Doctor Anna Cody, who is the Commissioner,

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Speaker 3: wrote a letter to the Assistant Minister for Employment Andrew Lee,

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Speaker 3: talking about the sort of implications of the decision for

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Speaker 3: the health, wellbeing and general equality of the community of

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Speaker 3: LGBTQ plus Australians as well as their families. She pointed

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Speaker 3: to the kind of significant health disparities faced by the

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Speaker 3: lgbtiq plus community compared to hetero and cisgender Australians and

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Speaker 3: emphasized the message that we'd heard from a lot of

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Speaker 3: other groups just about the importance of accurate population data

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Speaker 3: to inform decisions on you know, health and mental health services.

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Speaker 3: She said it was a matter of practical, effective policy.

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Speaker 4: So you've painted a picture of just significant pressure mounting

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Speaker 4: on the government kind of from every angle, both within

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Speaker 4: their own party, you know, opposition, Greens, people outside the system.

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Speaker 4: How did the government respond?

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Speaker 2: So? Anthony Albanezi, the Prime Minister, did.

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Speaker 3: An interview with ABC Radio on Friday morning where he

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Speaker 3: said there will be a question about sexual preference in

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Speaker 3: the next census, depending on the findings of ABS testing.

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Speaker 3: So to unpack that, he said the government had been

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Speaker 3: in discussions with the ABS and that they were going

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Speaker 3: to test for a new question. He said that would

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Speaker 3: be quote one question about sexuality, sexual preference. Albanezy said

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Speaker 3: that the ABS will be testing making sure quote that

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Speaker 3: people will have the option of not answering it or

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Speaker 3: if they prefer not to answer, And he said that

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Speaker 3: as long as the testing quote goes okay and a

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Speaker 3: question can be developed in a way that's sensitive and

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Speaker 3: that gets the information that is required, the ABS will

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Speaker 3: be testing that with a draft question. Now, I do

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Speaker 3: want to point out that Albaneze's comments only related to

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Speaker 3: a question about sexual orientation. He did not imply that

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Speaker 3: there will be any kind of testing on questions to

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Speaker 3: do with gender identity or variations in sex characteristics, which

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Speaker 3: were the proposals suggested by the ABS after that statement

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Speaker 3: of regret in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so the government essentially backflipped. They came out with

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Speaker 4: a position, it was deeply unpopular and they've now kind

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Speaker 4: of walked it back. Was there any explanation given?

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Speaker 3: Albaneze pretty much downplayed it. He said that the government

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Speaker 3: thinks the census has been pretty effective in the past.

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Speaker 3: He noted what he thought about the censors being the

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Speaker 3: incorrect vehicle to engage with the community across various issues,

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Speaker 3: and he downplayed the census, saying that it's not the

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Speaker 3: be all and end all. He also noted other data

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Speaker 3: collection strategies that are available to us now, including on

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Speaker 3: our phones and through social media, so that arguably felt

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Speaker 3: like a little bit of a distraction. He did defend

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Speaker 3: Labour's track record on anti discrimination legislation, though he noted

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Speaker 3: the survey isn't for two years, and I think a

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Speaker 3: good point that was made is that there is an

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Speaker 3: election to get through next year. The survey comes the

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Speaker 3: year after that, so a lot could change in the

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Speaker 3: makeup of the government between now and then. But I

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Speaker 3: do want to note there was some discussion around the

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Speaker 3: government not including questions representing LGBTQ plus Australia in the

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Speaker 3: next census to avoid discrimination and harmful conversations. But kind

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Speaker 3: of ironically you could say that is where the conversation

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Speaker 3: ended up going. The sexist Crimination Commissioner pointed out that

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Speaker 3: failing to address those concerns identified by the ABS and

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Speaker 3: BUY advocacy groups after the twenty twenty one survey risked

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Speaker 3: doing exactly that. Commissioner Cody said she was concerned in

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Speaker 3: the face of rising negative retrick that it could strengthen

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Speaker 3: the voices of discrimination and division. That quote seek to

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Speaker 3: disrupt the nation's social cohesion. I thought this was a

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Speaker 3: really strong quote from the Commissioner to finish on. While

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Speaker 3: we must seek to minimize harm, the answer cannot be

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Speaker 3: to do nothing. LGBTIQA plus Australians and their rights must

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Speaker 3: be protected and supported, as must the rights of all Australians.

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Speaker 4: M a really interesting deep dive, and I know that

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Speaker 4: a lot of people would have seen these headlines but

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Speaker 4: perhaps not understood.

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Speaker 1: All of that context.

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Speaker 4: So thank you for explaining that and thank you for

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Speaker 4: joining us for another day on the Daily ODS.

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Speaker 1: If you learned something from this.

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Speaker 4: Episode, feel free to leave a covent on Spotify or

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Speaker 4: wherever you're listening. If you're watching us on YouTube, we

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Speaker 4: love to know what you're thinking and feeling about the

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Speaker 4: topics that we cover here at TDA. We'll be back

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Speaker 4: again tomorrow, but until then, have a fantastic Monday. My

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Speaker 4: name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda Bungelung

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Speaker 4: Calcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges that

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Speaker 4: this podcast is recorded on the lands of the Gadighl

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Speaker 4: people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres s

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Speaker 4: right island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 4: first peoples of these countries, both past and present,