WEBVTT - 📺HOW AUSTRALIAN TELEVISION CHANGED FOREVER? 📺 0:00:00.360 --> 0:00:03.800 Welcome back to TV Reload. My name's Benjamin Norris, and 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.520 on this podcast I'll be going behind the scenes with 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:09.640 the biggest players in television today. On the show, I 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.720 have broadcasting and senior management consultant Tim Kluchus, who has 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:17.159 over forty years experience in the TV business. Some of 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:20.880 his career highlights include his role as executive producer of 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:25.400 the nineties TV series Sex, where he challenged Australian audiences 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.520 with taboo topics that gave us the answers to questions 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.600 we felt too embarrassed to ask. Feeling confident about Sex 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.960 led to a show called Money, a hugely successful show 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:39.680 which gave millions of Australians control and confidence over their 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.919 finances in a world where ignorance was preyed upon by 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:45.800 the powerful and corrupt. It'd be hard not to talk 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.400 about what he did next, As he said about making 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:52.120 TV for a new century, Bringing Big Brother to Australia 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:56.200 was groundbreaking television which paved the way for unscripted drama 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.600 that would change the face of TV forever. Dancing in 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:02.280 some pretty impressive circles, Tim allowed us to feel a 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.120 part of the programs you made, and reinvented ways in 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:08.400 which Australia could feel enriched by the topics he covered. 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:13.000 I'd like to welcome to the show, television mastermind, Tim Klucas. 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:15.600 This is the best job in the world. I'm making 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:20.280 television today and welcome to money. You had most of 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.080 the nations sitting down in front of the television every night, Marlin, 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.319 are you going to speak? If you gave them good content, 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:29.960 they gave you ratings. When it comes to a better 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.840 sex life, wouldn't you rathers do it with a tend 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.280 We certainly could have given the audience credit for being 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:37.319 more intelligent, the. 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.040 Heaviest contestant in Biggest Loser history. 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:42.840 Yes, the storm was coming, but there was no one 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:45.280 or two or three things we could have done. I 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:46.000 don't believe. 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:48.200 How are you mate? Are you good? 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:50.400 I'm good. I'm good as good as a bloke can 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:50.840 be at. 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.520 This age, with forty years in the business and a 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:57.160 resume that proves that you have made such a monumental 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.720 impact when it comes to working with television network, What 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.040 does a career in television feel like for you at 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:03.520 this stage? 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:04.680 Kind of looking back. 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:09.040 I got to say that, looking back, I feel that 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.440 I had the best years of the television business. I 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.360 don't know that for a lot of younger people in 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:19.440 the mainstream television business, I don't believe that most of 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:25.360 them can look forward to at limitless horizon, to exciting 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.120 opportunities things like that. It may come, but it will 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.400 be in very different forms to the way that I 0:02:32.480 --> 0:02:35.079 experienced the business. And so I've got to say, I 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:37.800 think people of my generation probably did have the best 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.040 of times. Television was that little special box in the corner. 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:45.120 There was no Internet, there was no streaming. You had 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.040 most of the nations sitting down in front of the 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:52.160 television every night, and so they were a willing, grateful audience. 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.240 If you gave them good content, they gave you ratings. 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:57.520 And that was a great time in television. 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.800 Interesting did you say that because people have turned away 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:04.480 from freeedoware television, we're now celebrating shows that are making 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.280 six hundred thousand, no longer celebrating shows that go over 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.480 a million. What would you say, looking back at some 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.280 of those key moments that people did look for other 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:14.680 places to find story. 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:17.080 I think the writing was on the wall for a 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.760 long time. All of us in television were saying Hey, look, 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.480 there's going to be streaming services. The internet is going 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.600 to be once you had decent broadband, people are going 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:28.360 to just be able to watch content from anywhere in 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:32.280 the world. They don't need to watch seven, nine, ten abcsps. 0:03:33.120 --> 0:03:35.800 We were all talking about it, and it was sort 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:37.880 of like we had a head in the sand. We 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.880 all knew it was coming, but we just sort of 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:47.720 pretended it wasn't And instead of setting about reinforcing the business, 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:52.720 the networks are basically just tried to cannibalize the business, 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:58.640 you know, fighting over viewers in a diminishing market. Maybe 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:00.920 that's what they have to do for their business, but 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.880 doesn't grow the market. It's not a common sense approach 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:08.640 to making your business successful into the future. You can 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:12.080 get your ratings this week by putting a cooking show 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:14.400 against a cooking show, or a renovation show against a 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.440 renovation show. Yeah, you might win this week's ratings, but 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:19.799 at the end of the day, you're losing the audience 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:21.040 over a longer term. 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:25.080 You have been such an amazing contributor to storytelling. Are 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.400 there moments now when you're sitting back and looking at it, 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:28.839 we could have done something different. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.080 I think hindsight is a wonderful things we all know, 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:38.200 not a characteristic that anyone in television is blessed with again, 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.800 and I think it's that driver for the ratings. Eight 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:46.000 thirty tomorrow morning is much more important than five years 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:48.560 down the track, ten years down the track. And so 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.960 I couldn't point to any one moment or two or 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:55.880 three moments in the business when we could have reversed 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.359 the bus and gone down another road. Because it was 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:04.160 death thousand cuts. Yes, the storm was coming, but there 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:06.800 was no one or two or three things we could 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:09.799 have done. I don't believe we certainly could have given 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.440 the audience credit for being more intelligent. They don't appreciate 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:16.080 us saying the show finishes at eight thirty and then 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.280 we keep it going to a quarter to nine. They 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:22.760 don't appreciate us scheduling programs that are like each other 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:28.600 against each other. They don't appreciate us doing obvious product 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.640 placement just to get money in the door. They resent 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.440 all that, and they don't see that happening on their 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:38.280 streaming services. They don't see the streaming services just playing 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:42.080 with start times to suit themselves or to suit their advertisers, 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:46.920 or to suit their competitive instincts against another network, and 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:51.600 so I think longer term, had we treated the audience 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.240 with more respect, I don't think they would have been 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:58.840 so happy to just abandon and pay each week every 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.200 night for a US streaming services when there are twenty 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:06.400 something free to wear channels that should offer everything possible, 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.680 but they don't, and so people are paying for television 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:10.600 when it used to be free. 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.839 Is it too ridiculous to think that competitive television networks 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:19.160 should have been programming things differently instead of doubling up 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.640 on content that's too similar. Do you think it's too 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:25.440 simplistic or it's too nice to think that they could 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:27.279 have programmed things differently. 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:30.680 It's probably naive to think that, because the end of 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:34.600 the day, they're competitive businesses, and if one network is 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.520 doing a really good job with a show that's rating 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:42.520 really well, well, another network will have to take that 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.160 slot on with either a similar show to try and 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.960 dilute the audience of the opposition, or an alternative show, 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:53.720 which then gives the audience that frustration. Well, now I 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:56.320 like them both, and I can't watch them both because 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.760 at the same time, and they're probably stripped shows, and 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.120 so I can't record one and watch the other because 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.520 I'll never catch up, and so I have to not 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:09.159 watch that show, and that leaves that sort of resentment. 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.240 It's definitely diluted the audience because you know, you're looking 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.920 at the moment, We've got Holly Molly married at first sight, 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:20.480 an amazing race. All three shows reality shows stripped taking 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:21.960 up people's minds, you know. 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:24.920 Yeah, look, we used to do a lot. I don't 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:27.480 know how much research does actually go into audiences now 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.280 because it's it seems to all be run by the 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:33.960 advertisers rather than the networks. But we used to find 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:37.520 you would put out your promos for a new series 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:44.320 and survey companies would survey likelihood of watching, and you'll 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.840 get amazing numbers. People will see a promo and they go, yeah, yeah, 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:50.080 I'll watch that, and then they didn't. And when you 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:55.120 go back, they were saying, well, I was worried that 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.640 if I liked it, I'd get hooked on it and 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.920 then it would just take the next eight weeks of 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.800 my nights out of the picture. And I didn't want 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:06.360 to get hooked on it, so I didn't watch it. 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.560 That is a funny situation to be in because that's 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.920 good news for the network, meaning we got the show right. 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.800 Bad news is they're not going to watch it, and 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:19.640 there's lots of examples of that, and I think again 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:24.679 there are economic revenue reasons why the stripped reality shows, 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:28.520 which I was molding right at the start, why the 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:32.840 networks ran with those, but they also had a habit 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:33.760 of killing the audience. 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:37.600 What is interesting about television from being my age is 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:40.880 that it always felt aspirational to me, being the viewer 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:42.920 at home. Do you think that the people sitting at 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.280 home these days are less likely to want to be 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:46.679 the people that they see on TV? 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:50.120 Oh? Sure, sure, And there's no doubt about that. And 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:53.560 that's probably an evolution of our society too. I mean, 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.439 in the days gone by, when the television was that 0:08:56.559 --> 0:08:59.839 magic box, people would look at Graham Kennedy or Burt Newton, 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:05.000 Don Lane and look up to them. But that doesn't 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.880 necessarily bring your eyes. These days, you are more likely 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:13.560 to get eyes, particularly within a younger audience, with road 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.959 crash and so you're not going to successfully have married 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:22.280 at first sight unless you have people brawling on it 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:26.240 and look at it and look at you know, bachelor, 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:31.640 Bachelorette you know those shows. They're all about the brawl, 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.040 not about finding love or whatever. 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.400 I also think it's more accessible these days for people 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:41.680 as well, because you can actually be on these shows. 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:43.800 There's so many of them. So you sitting at home 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:48.080 before couldn't be Daryl Summers because that was impossible. But 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:50.920 then you could be Sarah Marie. You know, you could 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.920 be Guy Sebastian. The idea of making television that way 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:59.920 also probably diluted the audience's ability to go I'd love 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:01.200 but it's out of reach. 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:07.679 Well yes and no. Yes, it makes it a platform 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:11.560 for many people rather than few. But the fact is 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:14.800 ninety nine point ninety nine nine percent of those people 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:17.840 aren't a Daryl Somers, you know, they aren't. To Graham Kennedy, 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.240 they are not performers. We always used to talk and 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:26.400 when we'd be casting Australian Idol or X Factor or whatever, 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.320 someone who get up on the stage and you could say, well, 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:33.440 they've done a lot of singing into their brush in 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:36.600 the bathroom. Whereas those old timers like the Daryl Summers 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.320 and the Graham Kennedy's, you know, they they were seasoned 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:44.480 performers and they it was their life it was running 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:48.080 in their blood. And that's different to watching something on 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.640 the internet and thinking I could do that, or filming 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.559 yourself in your living room and getting twenty followers and thinking, 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:57.000 oh gee, I'm a star. That's not doing it in 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.120 front of a thousand people live or anything like that. 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.000 I think for some people, they think that they're interesting 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:05.160 when they're not, and that I've got friends who think 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.040 that they're uninteresting and they're fascinating. 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.040 And like I say, that is the result of doing 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:13.800 something in your bedroom and putting it on TikTok or 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:18.240 whatever and people thinking you're really interesting, but you're not. 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:21.400 I think it's also really funny that TikTok has shown 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:25.120 us that a five second piece of content and content 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:30.319 creators making those shorter pieces are excelling. However, your stripped 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.840 shows are getting longer. You know, it was only probably 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.400 eight years ago that they extended your regular reality shows 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:41.160 from a sixty minute broadcast to now ninety minutes, and 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.839 that it seems like these shows go longer, and you think, 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.240 but the education and the knowledge that's out there is 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.040 that people want to digest things in a shorter period 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:50.400 of time. 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.040 Yeah, but that's simple economics. You know, you get a 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:58.880 situation where stripped reality show A series one and two, 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:04.360 the network twenty million dollars for fifty hours. They have 0:12:04.480 --> 0:12:06.679 to sit down some bean counter somewhere we'll go, We'll 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:09.720 hang on. You know, twenty million dollars for fifty hours. 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.040 Do the maths? What's that four hundred thousand an hour? 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:14.120 I don't know. I've probably got that completely wrong. On 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:14.760 the top of the head. 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:16.320 I'm not a mathematic. 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:19.240 Clearly I'm not either. But they're saying, well, that's we 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.160 need better revenue per hour than that. The secret is 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.680 go back to the production company. Okay, for series three, 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:28.920 we're still only paying twenty million, but we want sixty 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.040 hours next year. And so then they turn their sixty 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.800 minute shows into ninety minute shows. They do this, they'd 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.160 look for specials, they look for whatever they can do 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:40.720 to milk more content, and stuff that should have gone 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:45.560 to the cutting room floor ends up on television. And 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:50.880 that causes two problems. One, it's boring, and every editor 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.760 and producers instinct was that's not gonna make it. But 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:55.640 we've got to get it up to ninety minutes this week, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.040 so that's in. And then the solution to this is 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.199 really boring. Okay, let's promo the crap out of it 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.120 and make it out to be how many times have 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:12.040 you listened to network promos going unbelievable, never before seen events, 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.640 You will not believe what happens on blah blah blah, 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.600 and the audience goes, oh, well, this is good, but 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:23.400 actually you've promoted the crap out of the dull bit 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.000 because you're trying to justify its existence in the show 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.120 the network. The audience watches that and goes, ah, that's 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.439 not so interesting. What's on the other channel? Flick flick flick, 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.200 And the minute they're flicking, they're gone, and that's and it's. 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:36.800 Hard to get them back. 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.960 The other factor, maybe maybe not so much something like 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:45.199 Holy Moly, but certainly the reality shows is that there's 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:49.800 no way they can be flexible and respond to the 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.480 audience from w wick like the original Big Brother could 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:56.600 because the audience was telling you every night what was happening, 0:13:56.800 --> 0:14:00.520 and you could adjust your edits, your content, whatever. But 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:08.720 now the obsession with these reality shows is overproducing. They've 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.640 got to be graded so they look like they've been 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.480 shot by Bruce Beresford, and that doesn't happen overnight, So 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:21.120 those things sit in the edit room being worked and worked. 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:26.120 And then the other problem is if Billy Bloggs says, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:31.000 I think Rachel's a pain in the ass, we need 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.600 now and go and find a shot of two other 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:36.280 people turning their heads sharply not to what he said. 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:38.240 It could have been a week ago, but we need 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:42.120 a reaction. So now we have got to overcut, an overcut, 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:46.560 an overcut, and everything is changed in the edit. So 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.800 these shows are shot six nine months in advance, and 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.520 they spend so long in the edit suite to meet 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:57.480 the network's expectations of the look, the grading, and it's 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:01.080 got to be everything's got to have reaction. Everything's going 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.880 to so there's no way you can reshoot something. Course 0:15:05.440 --> 0:15:08.640 it finished six months ago, that everyone's gone home or 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.000 everyone's gone off to do other things. So it's all 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.520 in the in the edit suite, and that's taking away 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.400 the flexibility. So shows can't respond they live or die 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:20.600 or what they did, and so then they're going to 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.000 go over the top just in case. 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.000 And you know, you know, and it's interesting that you 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.880 say that, because what would you pick? Would you pick 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:30.480 something that is absolutely cut and shot to be amazing 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:32.480 or a human moment. 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:37.040 Yeah, yeah. And it also adds to the problem that 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:40.440 the audience just starts to feel like we've seen this before. 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:42.880 It was another series, it might have been another subject 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:47.520 and another network, but it all seems familiar. So and 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:49.680 so does this, so and so does that, and then 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:55.520 the retrospective interview. The greatest crime against TV making in 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:57.880 the business, and we started it on you know, when 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:02.120 we took a one hour show out of America and 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.160 turned it into a strip called The Biggest Loser. And 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.440 I've never forgotten the day we were in the edit 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:14.160 suite and Paul Franklin was the supervising executive producer of 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.120 the show. We were looking at the first cuts and 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:21.440 it was a way in and a person was talking 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:25.360 about it, and someone had recorded it in a sort 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:31.040 of present tense, and Paul had intercut that with the 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.320 way in, and it was like the people being weighed 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:40.240 in were almost narrating their own way in, Like there 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.240 were sports announcers calling their own way in. And instead 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:46.880 of saying I didn't know what to think when that happened, 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.840 it became walking up to the days and I don't 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.280 know what to think, what's going to happen Now this 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:58.200 is recorded afterwards, we know he knew that person knows 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:02.280 what happened. But and so that became a staple of 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:05.200 all of these shows. Instead of letting the events happen, 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:08.600 now they've got to intercap them all with retrospective interviews 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:10.959 as o people. And not many people can do a 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:15.640 retrospective interview very well, let alone say it. So they 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.160 become quite fake. And now it's the dance. The audience 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.959 has seen this dance for fifteen years. Let's move on. 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:25.960 Bob and I decided it was your best to split 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.280 the group in two. Okay, Shannon, you take the guys, 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:30.080 I'll take the girls. 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.840 They listen out train I thought, oh well, I'm a 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:34.480 bit on easy. 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:36.439 Stay that attitude tooll be the first one to go on. 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.560 You know, let's maybe try telling a story differently. You know, 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.560 maybe we don't open the reality show with two big 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:48.080 doors at the end of a kitchen or a lego studio. 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:52.080 What have two big doors opening and people running in excitedly. 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.600 So you know, we have these producers, because they're being 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.960 told not to mess with success, they make the same 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.359 show every time, might be a different name, might be 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:04.359 a different network, different subject matter, but it feels like 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.080 I'm watching the same show all the time. 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:07.960 You Know what's really fascinating for me was I was 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.800 watching what documentaries are doing at the moment, and I 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.719 watched this documentary Don't Fuck with Cats, which evolved so 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.960 quickly because and it was fascinating. Were they retelling something 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:21.560 that had happened twenty years ago? Probably, but what they 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.360 were doing was giving the audience what happens in real 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.280 time with real technology as we were the investigators. Yea, 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:31.840 that is fascinating. You think about what you did in 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:37.760 two thousand to two thousand and three, particularly revolutionized reality television, 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:42.679 and yet I think people have now photocopied your ideas, 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:45.399 not just yours. I know you collaborated, but then they 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:48.040 haven't taken it to the modern day to watch these 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:52.399 sows evolve in real time. And I think technology, you know, 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:55.960 they're still making Big Brother and they haven't given them phones. 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.160 You know, they haven't given them technology or real life 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:02.560 situations that brings the audience and the contestants into a 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:03.200 modern day. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:03.920 Is that a. 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:09.640 Mistake, Well, yes, although I don't think that would help 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.679 that approach. I think the isolation, and that's true to 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.959 the format. But the problem for Big Brother is that 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:20.560 what I was talking about earlier, that need to grade 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.120 the stuff so it looks beautiful on air, that need 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.359 to find every little reaction and inter cut It is 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.120 really hard. Out of twenty four hours. I don't care 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.200 how long it takes, find me a shot of him 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.240 looking sideways suddenly, because I want it to make it 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.280 look like he's reacted to what she just said. You 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.400 can't do that in an overnight turnaround show like Big Brother. 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.720 So what they've done, as you know, is they're just 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.000 making Survivor in a house. Now. It's shot in advance, 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:53.480 it's not live. It's cut to buggery. The audience doesn't 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:58.360 have a say. The network that producers are in complete control. 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.520 And the joy of Big Bra there was we weren't 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:06.080 in control. Big Brother wasn't in control. Those housemates were 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:09.680 in control, and that's what made the show work because 0:20:10.200 --> 0:20:13.000 you didn't know what was going to happen. You just 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:17.200 knew it was going to happen, and that was why 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.040 it worked, and that's why the audience is like Big Brother, 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.880 I've seen this before. I think it was on an island. Yeah, 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.800 and they're in swimmers with coconuts. But I think I've 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:32.040 seen this before, and that's the problem. Making programs for 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:34.679 the network and for the producers instead of for the 0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:38.160 audience is the slippery slope downhill. 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:39.080 I think you. 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.000 Flipped the switch a couple of times in your career, though, 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:44.199 like I thought, Sex with Sophie Lee was really a 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.240 fascinating moment because it was groundbreaking television. It was content 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:49.720 that we hadn't seen. It was stuff that people felt 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.720 it kind of like, I need to watch that by myself. 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.600 But the topics that you were discussing in there, which 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:59.240 would have been HIV and things like that, or people's 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.480 sexuality and gender. You were doing that show in the nineties, 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.880 you know, it's still possible, I think, And I wondered 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:10.439 whether you think to find those things that people truly 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.560 want to know and the answers to you know, do 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:15.600 those shows kind would they work now? 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:20.040 Well? A lot has been said and written about this 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:26.119 because the magazine shows, particularly the Australian style magazine shows 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:30.680 of the late eighties early nineties, were incredibly unique. We 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:33.520 were doing them in primetime if the world was burying 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:39.159 them in off air afternoons or on the weekends. We 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.160 were leading the way in terms of ratings. I mean, 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:45.240 I've never forgotten that first year of Money because when 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:47.560 I finished two years of seasons of Sex, the next 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:51.800 show that I pitched was Money and it went to 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.000 where in ninety three from memory And in that first 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.320 year there was only I think we made twenty episodes 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:02.560 half hour episodes of Money and seven weeks out of 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:04.400 the fifty two weeks of the year, it was the 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:10.800 most watched nonsport, non news show on Australian television. But 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:13.080 the story you're about to see tonight has got to 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:17.280 be one of the most disturbing investment tales ever. You know, 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:22.320 two point four two point five million people watching every episode. Now, 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:27.879 that was a time when you didn't have the internet 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:30.359 to just easily. I mean, yes there was the Internet, 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.040 but it wasn't anywhere near as effective as it is 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:38.280 now in terms of researching stuff. But we did have 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:42.879