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Speaker 1: James and Amanda gam Nation.

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Speaker 2: Well, you may know our next guest is a formal politician.

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Speaker 2: But nineteen years ago almost everything ended when John Brogden

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Speaker 2: attempted to take his own life. He's not alone. The

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Speaker 2: statistics are horrifying. Every day nine Australians die by suicide,

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Speaker 2: more than double the deaths on rhoads. Five percent of

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Speaker 2: people who do take their own lives are male. Well,

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Speaker 2: John's using his story and the stories of fifteen others

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Speaker 2: to help people shatter the silence around suicide. A new

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Speaker 2: book called Profiles of Hope John High. Are you nice

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Speaker 2: to see it?

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Speaker 3: Are you? Aka? Day?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely important day? I am okay, How are you guys?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm good, you know, thank you hearing that thing

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Speaker 4: from James package just yeah, you can be whoever and

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Speaker 4: it can just hitch you.

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Speaker 1: Look, it was incredible, you know. He was my first

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Speaker 1: interview in the book, and I went and spent some

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Speaker 1: time with him in his home in Argentina. And he's

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Speaker 1: a guy who's incredibly privileged, incredibly wealthy, who focuses on

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Speaker 1: his failures, not his successes in life, who by his

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Speaker 1: own admission, so I'm not being I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: embarrass him when I say this has an incredible struggle

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Speaker 1: with his weight, has an incredible struggle with you know,

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Speaker 1: when he's bouncing back and forth with alcohol and cigarettes

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Speaker 1: and the like. And he's a great example of it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter how privileged you are, mental health doesn't discriminate.

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Speaker 1: And after the Spotlight report, people blogged away with their

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Speaker 1: comments and they were universally supportive and sympathetic. You would

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Speaker 1: have thought people might say, I care about James Packer's

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Speaker 1: worth billions, you can look after himself. I've got real

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Speaker 1: problems in life. He hasn't. But everybody who blogged said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I feel for this guy. I had one

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Speaker 1: person actually text me and say, I was sitting next

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Speaker 1: to my son, my adult son, watching this who's got

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Speaker 1: terribly overweight, that some of the medication is taken for

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Speaker 1: his mental illness. And I said, look, even James Packet

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Speaker 1: as that problem. So the way I wrote the book

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Speaker 1: the Interviews, was to get a collection of Australia's very

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Speaker 1: wide cross section of people, so that everyone who reads

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Speaker 1: it can look in and see a bit of themselves.

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Speaker 1: So there's a great farmer in there, Peter Maloney, which

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Speaker 1: tells that classic country story. There's a young bloke who

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Speaker 1: survived his suicide only to spend his at sixteen suicide attempt,

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Speaker 1: only to be now spending the rest of his life

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Speaker 1: in a wheelchair, but with this incredible determination to walk again.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I ask a question of many people,

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Speaker 1: did you have to get that low to bounce back?

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Speaker 1: And almost universally that they say yes. They also say,

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Speaker 1: like Jackie Lamby, I wish I didn't have to get

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Speaker 1: that far to bounce back. But they have bounced back,

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Speaker 1: and in many cases, you know, I don't think Jackie

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Speaker 1: Lamby when she was sixteen and joined the army, thought

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Speaker 1: she'd be a senator almost running the country. Sometimes with

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Speaker 1: the things that she says and the way she resonates

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Speaker 1: with the public, I think a lot of these people

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Speaker 1: have had transformative changes, but there are some struggle stories

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Speaker 1: in there where people their success is actually just still

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Speaker 1: being alive and you know that they're still going through it.

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Speaker 1: The way James was telling us on Sunday night, I

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Speaker 1: mean that was incredibly I think raw's a great word

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Speaker 1: for the way James went through it. And you know,

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Speaker 1: he's been there and I've been there, and what I

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Speaker 1: want this book to tell people. Tell as you said, Amanda,

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Speaker 1: the nine Australians on average will take their live lives today.

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Speaker 1: The sixty five thousand Australians every year who attempt suicide

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Speaker 1: sixty five thousand is there's a way through, and there

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Speaker 1: is hope even when you think nobody cares. Because my

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Speaker 1: experience was that I stuffed up publicly. I felt I'd

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Speaker 1: shamed you see our family, or my friends, all my supporters.

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Speaker 1: I've become such a burden that the best thing for me,

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Speaker 1: not the not the only thing, The best thing for

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Speaker 1: me was to take my life. And I knew you

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Speaker 1: guys back then.

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Speaker 3: That was the day, like we were.

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Speaker 4: The last we spoke to you on the night that

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Speaker 4: you went to that function, and I said, you're in

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Speaker 4: the box seat, Bob Cars resigned.

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Speaker 3: You are going to be our next premier.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, and it.

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Speaker 4: Just unraveled from that and I did. And I remember

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Speaker 4: at the time how we handled it, and I feel

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Speaker 4: I don't know if I had the mental capacity back

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Speaker 4: then you just said, oh, John's gone crazy. But then

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Speaker 4: you look at it now, how you've come round and

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Speaker 4: the awareness about.

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Speaker 2: It was the spike though, what did save you?

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Speaker 1: Well, to be honest, what saved me was the police

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Speaker 1: turned up to my office and got me early, well

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Speaker 1: before I died.

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Speaker 3: That's what happened.

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Speaker 2: But how have you saved yourself every day since?

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Speaker 1: Well, through a number of ways, but without a doubt.

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Speaker 1: You know, my lifeline is my wife and now our children,

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Speaker 1: and you know that's that's good for me, but it's

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Speaker 1: a challenge for them, right. I mean, I have suicidality

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Speaker 1: and depression. I'll have suicidality probably for the rest of

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Speaker 1: my life. What does that mean? That means part of

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Speaker 1: my makeup is if something goes really bad for me,

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Speaker 1: usually emotionally or personally, not so much like in business

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Speaker 1: life and those sorts of things, but personally and emotionally,

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Speaker 1: and if it's if I catastrophize it, yeah, in a

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Speaker 1: way that you two might say, look, actually that's okay,

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Speaker 1: you can get through that. But for me, I think

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Speaker 1: I can't get through it, and then I start to

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Speaker 1: think about suicide. So over twenty years since that happened,

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Speaker 1: nineteen years, I've begun to learn how to better handle that.

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Speaker 1: So people often say, what does that include? And it

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Speaker 1: does include? And this might I think people thought this

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Speaker 1: was arrogant in my amongst friends and family. But do

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Speaker 1: you know how as Australians we're really good at having

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Speaker 1: to go to Arnie so and so's Christmas party and

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Speaker 1: people are rude to us, so we don't like it,

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Speaker 1: or somebody's going to ask us the question, and I

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Speaker 1: just don't go to those things anymore because I know

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Speaker 1: they're going to upset me. Now for a while people

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Speaker 1: would have thought, well, what he's up himself for whatever

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Speaker 1: it is. But I don't like big late night functions anymore.

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Speaker 1: So there are a number of things I choose not

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Speaker 1: to do because I know they'll either get me too tight,

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Speaker 1: which is bad and therefore you know, batteries down and susceptible,

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Speaker 1: or I just don't like them anymore, which is funny

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Speaker 1: because in the old game you had to do seven

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Speaker 1: a week, right, one for every night, so everybody has

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Speaker 1: their own solution. There's a fantastic story in there of

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Speaker 1: this farmer called Peter Maloney who was a Brisbane electrician

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Speaker 1: but married a country girl so had to go and

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Speaker 1: be a farmer from scratch. And you know what farmers

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Speaker 1: are like. They're pretty hard on people from the city

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Speaker 1: and who become new farmers. He found it incredibly hard

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Speaker 1: to adjust. He had crippling dyslexia as a kid, picked

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Speaker 1: on all that sort of stuff, and he got to

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Speaker 1: that point where he tried to take his own life.

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Speaker 1: And it was only one of his kids riding up

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Speaker 1: on a motorbike to where he had gone to take

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Speaker 1: his own life, where he decided, no, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to do that. And he's turned that around and he's

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Speaker 1: changed his life. He does meditation every morning, quijong every morning,

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Speaker 1: and he's the great thing for breakfast people, morning people,

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Speaker 1: a three minute ice bath every morning. So a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have radically changed their life and set it

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Speaker 1: on a new path. And as I said, the fascinating

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Speaker 1: question I ask is did you have to get to

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Speaker 1: that point to bounce back? In the answers years, But

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Speaker 1: the messages that I want this book to tell people

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Speaker 1: is there is a way through. You know, you get

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Speaker 1: to that point you think no one loves you. You

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Speaker 1: may burn some bridges along the way, and the reality

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Speaker 1: is that might be true, but Lifeline wants you to

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Speaker 1: be alive. A lot of people want you to be life.

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Speaker 1: And here's the thing. Over the last twenty years, I

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Speaker 1: think it's probably twenty years we've got much better at

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Speaker 1: realizing that mental health, anxiety, depression, etcetera. Is normal. It's

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Speaker 1: just like people who have kidney diseases and heart attacks

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Speaker 1: and all of those sort of things. It just happens

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Speaker 1: to be an illness of the organ called the brain

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Speaker 1: as opposed to a body. You know, something in physical

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Speaker 1: unless in your body. I think we've done great work there.

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Speaker 1: And you guys have been in this industry for a

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Speaker 1: long time. You know you wouldn't have had this conversation.

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Speaker 4: Thirty years ago, like nineteen years ago. We've rounded a

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Speaker 4: corner with it. I have like in the old days,

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Speaker 4: because I don't have anxiety. Yeah, I do notice if

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Speaker 4: I drink too much, I get anxiety. So I do

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Speaker 4: get a hangover anxiety because I think, what did I

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Speaker 4: say last night? I do as I get older, so

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Speaker 4: I'm adjusting how much I drink these days.

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Speaker 3: I think that's part of just getting old of it.

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Speaker 3: We are what you've done as an advocate. I just

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Speaker 3: command you for it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, thanks great.

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Speaker 2: And recognizing your triggers is a very interesting, it's very

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Speaker 2: impractical thing to do.

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Speaker 1: It is, and that point about normalizing mental illness is

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Speaker 1: very important because more and more people talk about it,

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Speaker 1: and you know, whether it's forty people or famous people,

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Speaker 1: people in the street. I often will say to people,

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Speaker 1: and it's part also of breaking the barrier, how you're going,

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Speaker 1: how's in mental health? Not how's in mental health? And

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Speaker 1: often I know they've been through a tough time or

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Speaker 1: they've got a tough time coming up. And people don't

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Speaker 1: bullshit me on that point, they say, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a bit so that's changed, are you Okays important,

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Speaker 1: But we don't want to normalize suicide because we actually

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Speaker 1: want people to live. We actually want them to live.

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Speaker 1: So it's strange to say this. There's nothing normal about suicide,

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Speaker 1: and we shouldn't. I don't want anyone to think it's

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Speaker 1: normal to suicide. And that's not a religious judgment or

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Speaker 1: a value judgment. And I tried to kill myself, so

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Speaker 1: I'd be the last person to impose that view. What

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Speaker 1: I am saying is we I want you to live

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Speaker 1: with apologies to wham choose life. You're better off being

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Speaker 1: alive than dead, and we can get you through. We

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Speaker 1: can get you through. And the challenge we have is

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Speaker 1: those suicide numbers are very stubborn. They're not going down.

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Speaker 1: But believe it or not, During COVID suicide dropped five

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Speaker 1: percent in Australia. Wouldn't you well, Jonesy's looking at me saying,

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about? You know, how could that

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Speaker 1: be right? You know what? I put it down to

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Speaker 1: a few things. There's no doubt job keeper was a lifesaver.

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Speaker 1: People didn't have to worry about money in the bank.

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Speaker 1: But put that aside. Everybody put their head over the

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Speaker 1: back fence or over the balcony in the unit block

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Speaker 1: and said, do you need anything in our little group

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Speaker 1: of houses. The people down the road went to the

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Speaker 1: old couple and said, don't worry, we'll take your bins up.

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Speaker 1: We're going shopping. Do you need anything? We got a

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Speaker 1: COVID dog. Of course, we've got a COVID dog. And

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Speaker 1: as you walk the dog, you don't just gnawed and

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Speaker 1: say good morning. You stop and chatted to people. And

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Speaker 1: I yelled this from the rooftops as the chair of lifeline.

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Speaker 1: Just ring somebody, just ring somebody for that day. Somebody

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Speaker 1: haven't contacted for years, or it just dropped them a text.

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Speaker 1: And I think we became really connected suicide dropped almost

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Speaker 1: the minute. Sorry, presentations for mental health went through the roof.

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Speaker 1: Lifelines calls went through the roof. Now that's a double

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Speaker 1: edged sword. You say, oh my god, what a disaster.

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Speaker 1: Lifelines numbers have doubled. I say, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: crisis out there, but thank god be ringing people the

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Speaker 1: sixty years we've been yelling from the rooftops, call lifeline.

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Speaker 1: And what happened is that the magic call we got,

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Speaker 1: mostly from Blokes, was not only is this the first

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Speaker 1: time I've called Lifeline. I never thought I'd have to

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Speaker 1: call Lifeline. Now I see that as a great thing

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Speaker 1: reaching out. But in terms of your own triggers, it's critical.

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Speaker 1: But Amanda, I could be talking to you about diabetes.

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Speaker 1: I could be saying, do this, don't do that, do this,

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Speaker 1: don't do that to have a good life, to live

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Speaker 1: with diabetes. I could be talking about heart disease. You know,

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Speaker 1: donate too much red meat?

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Speaker 3: What did he like?

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Speaker 1: Therefore, I talk to you about what are the good

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Speaker 1: things for your own mental health? You know, having depression,

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Speaker 1: it is about getting the right amount of sleep. It

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Speaker 1: is about not getting hisself in stressful positions. It is

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Speaker 1: usually about not drinking much and not eating bad stuff.

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Speaker 1: And it also includes getting a heart like a half

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Speaker 1: an hour of sun on your face every day. Now

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Speaker 1: you think, what's all that about. There is actually a

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Speaker 1: chemical reaction that will be beneficial to your for battling depression,

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Speaker 1: getting out in the sun and staying social. So Ian

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Speaker 1: Thorpe's in this book, and he is the most He

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Speaker 1: has I think the greatest burden of fame of anyone

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Speaker 1: I've met. He can't go down the road. I don't

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Speaker 1: know how he goes and buys bread and milk right

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Speaker 1: without being mobbed or asking for order.

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Speaker 4: And also people are judging about his sexuality, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: Or looking at it, you know, that staring thing looking

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Speaker 1: at him, and so his burdens incredible. You know, he

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Speaker 1: was sweating for Australia at fourteen and the sexuality points fascinating.

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Speaker 1: He tells the story in this book that at sixteen

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Speaker 1: when he was winning and becoming a national sensation, because

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Speaker 1: the bloke's seventeen foot tall, and you know, he's got

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Speaker 1: the most extraordinary swimmers body and recognizable. You know at

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Speaker 1: sixteen as he gets out, as he got out of

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Speaker 1: the water, a journalist said to him, oh, are you

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Speaker 1: gay at sixteen? I remember, you know, just extraordinary, he

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Speaker 1: says in the book. He later found out from that

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Speaker 1: journalist who was terribly embarrassed apology, that he would have

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Speaker 1: got the sack. The journal was told, you'll get the

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Speaker 1: sack if you don't ask that question. Now, thank god,

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Speaker 1: those meanings have changed and society's changed. But with the end,

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Speaker 1: he has a list and he said, I've got a

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Speaker 1: list of things. Well, he said, I've got a list

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Speaker 1: of things. I said, a written list. You said, there

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Speaker 1: written lists.

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Speaker 3: He said.

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Speaker 1: If I don't walk the dog for two days, there's

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Speaker 1: something wrong with me. If I'm not cooking myself dinner,

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Speaker 1: I'm not eating properly, there's something If I'm drinking too much.

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Speaker 1: And my friends have that list. It was fascinating, so

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Speaker 1: they'll check in out.

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Speaker 3: Have you done this?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's about getting your network supportive. So there

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Speaker 1: are lots of different.

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Speaker 3: Stories, and John, you're giving the whole book away. Here,

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Speaker 3: sit on your treasures. I grab a copy of Profiles

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Speaker 3: in Hope. Now I had all good bookstores.

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Speaker 4: I'm disappointed to see you didn't bring Lucy's Muffins.

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Speaker 3: Co nineteen years ago.

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Speaker 1: That a little dry they were savory. Who makes savory?

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Speaker 1: I remember it was who make savory?

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Speaker 3: Much? Is that what you said?

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Speaker 4: I'm the biggest savory guy in the world now, Jay Brow,

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Speaker 4: It is so good to talk to you, mate.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for coming in, and.

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Speaker 1: Thank you guys for always being there for me when

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Speaker 1: I need to talk about mental health and.

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Speaker 2: We always are. John, Thanks you