1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,360
Speaker 1: But look, one of the other big issues around the

2
00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:06,360
Speaker 1: Northern Territory at the moment is the fact that there

3
00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,840
Speaker 1: has been some serious concerns raised over the recent loss

4
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,520
Speaker 1: of access for professional fishes in the Mini Mini and

5
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,159
Speaker 1: Morganella region due to failed negotiations. Now it's understood that

6
00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,720
Speaker 1: discussions between the Northern Territory government and the traditional owners

7
00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,439
Speaker 1: of that region have failed to reach a successful result

8
00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,200
Speaker 1: to minimize short term impacts and as a result, it

9
00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,760
Speaker 1: means that well, some of those fishes that were in

10
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:35,080
Speaker 1: the area, those professional fishes are no longer able to

11
00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,120
Speaker 1: access those spots. Now joining me on the line is

12
00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,760
Speaker 1: the Northern Territory Seafood Council Chief Executive Officer Catherine Winchester.

13
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:44,240
Speaker 1: Good morning to you, Catherine.

14
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:46,120
Speaker 2: Good morning Katie.

15
00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,040
Speaker 1: Catherine, what exactly is the situation at this point?

16
00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,840
Speaker 2: Well, right now today we've got professional barmunday fishes and

17
00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,480
Speaker 2: mud crab fishes that have fished that many many Morganella

18
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,120
Speaker 2: areas for over twenty years and they're unable to go

19
00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,520
Speaker 2: to their fishing grounds and unable to earn income because

20
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,160
Speaker 2: their entire businesses were set up for that particular area.

21
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:16,560
Speaker 1: Wow, Catherine, how many professional fishes. Is this impacting.

22
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:23,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's impacting really hard three particular businesses, but

23
00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,760
Speaker 2: every business is so important in the industry and we

24
00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:33,280
Speaker 2: had hoped when we heard that the traditional owners we're

25
00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,280
Speaker 2: going to close the waters from the first of January.

26
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,840
Speaker 2: We got notice of that in early November, so it

27
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,520
Speaker 2: was sort of a couple of months notice. The government

28
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,800
Speaker 2: put an offer or developed an offer for the traditional

29
00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:49,240
Speaker 2: owners to consider, and it was only for five businesses.

30
00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,680
Speaker 2: To really try and minimize that impact on the professional

31
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,680
Speaker 2: fishing industry because through these fourteen years of negotiations for

32
00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,280
Speaker 2: Blue Monday, we've tried our best to always make sure

33
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,600
Speaker 2: that we're not disrupting industry, that businesses can keep operating

34
00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,240
Speaker 2: as we transition to whatever the new system is going forward.

35
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,680
Speaker 2: So an offer for five businesses to continue in that

36
00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:16,480
Speaker 2: area was rejected, which has really hurt those particular individuals.

37
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,680
Speaker 1: Catherine, when did you become aware that the negotiations had

38
00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,600
Speaker 1: sort of broken down to this point.

39
00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,840
Speaker 2: Well, we got the news, we got briefing last week

40
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:31,120
Speaker 2: that the answer was no. So these businesses, you know,

41
00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,600
Speaker 2: we met with the Northern Land Council in late November

42
00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:37,120
Speaker 2: to further understand to hear from the Northern Land Council

43
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,720
Speaker 2: why this area was different to the rest of the coastline.

44
00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,919
Speaker 2: Because we're the whole coastline that eighty six percent that

45
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:47,480
Speaker 2: is owned by Aboriginal people. We need to We know

46
00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,800
Speaker 2: that we need to transition to a new Section nineteen

47
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,520
Speaker 2: permit system and we're working with a Land council to

48
00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,280
Speaker 2: do that, but this one particular area didn't have the

49
00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,640
Speaker 2: regal room for a transition period for industry. So we

50
00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,480
Speaker 2: met with Northern Land Council in November to better understand

51
00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,919
Speaker 2: why that was, and it's because the Land Council had

52
00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,720
Speaker 2: no flexibility. They understood the impacts, but it's up to

53
00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,080
Speaker 2: the traditional owners to decide what activities occur on their

54
00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,200
Speaker 2: land and they had made that decision that they wanted

55
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:18,360
Speaker 2: the waters closed. So, you know, an emergency short term

56
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,640
Speaker 2: offer just for seven months for five businesses, Can you

57
00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,560
Speaker 2: please just let us have a little bit more access

58
00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:26,760
Speaker 2: whilst we come back to you and talk about those

59
00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,360
Speaker 2: long term arrangements that suit the region. But unfortunately the

60
00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,800
Speaker 2: answer was no, and we're still trying to unpack that

61
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,520
Speaker 2: and understand what went wrong because it's massive implications for

62
00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:39,360
Speaker 2: those businesses.

63
00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,360
Speaker 1: What are those businesses saying to you right now.

64
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,720
Speaker 2: Well, some of them have stopped answering their phones at

65
00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 2: the moment because it really wasn't news that they were expecting,

66
00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,240
Speaker 2: using language like they're buryed, this is it, I'm done.

67
00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,800
Speaker 2: It's really difficult conversations. We're trying to support them as

68
00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,440
Speaker 2: much as possible, but at the same time, there's nothing

69
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,200
Speaker 2: I can say that that helps them. And I saw

70
00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,440
Speaker 2: in the media comment from the Minister Minister Selena Hubo

71
00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 2: saying that the government's still negotiating with the Land Council

72
00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,040
Speaker 2: about access to that area, but it's too late. The

73
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,839
Speaker 2: season has started. It took three months to get out

74
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,279
Speaker 2: there for an offer that was rejected just recently, and

75
00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,559
Speaker 2: all those traditional owners have to come in and spend

76
00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,640
Speaker 2: their time to hear the offer. These things don't just

77
00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,480
Speaker 2: happen at a week's notice or you know, I hear

78
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:35,159
Speaker 2: the counter offer. So to have that offer rejected, I

79
00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,520
Speaker 2: don't know if and how soon another offer could even

80
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,760
Speaker 2: be formed and presented, and are they interested in an offer,

81
00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,960
Speaker 2: like we really need to understand why the answer was no,

82
00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,560
Speaker 2: and also you know how that discussion went so that

83
00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,599
Speaker 2: these businesses, I've got no answers for them right now,

84
00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,560
Speaker 2: and it's really difficult.

85
00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 1: Has the government provided any kind of insight, any kind

86
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,560
Speaker 1: of information towards this Seafood Council in terms of those

87
00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,520
Speaker 1: negotiations or where to from here?

88
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 2: We had a briefing and we are seeking further information

89
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,520
Speaker 2: from the government on that we can share like in

90
00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,599
Speaker 2: writing rather than my version of what I've heard to industry,

91
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,960
Speaker 2: to actually get some written advice to share with industry

92
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,479
Speaker 2: as well. But unfortunately it seems like and the many

93
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,760
Speaker 2: many Murganella is an area that government have been having

94
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,960
Speaker 2: discussions with for almost ten years now. It shouldn't have

95
00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,080
Speaker 2: been a surprise to the government that there were other

96
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,360
Speaker 2: elements and things that they had been discussing with these

97
00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,760
Speaker 2: traditional owners that were important. So how well did they

98
00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,560
Speaker 2: set up this offer and how well did they present it?

99
00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,280
Speaker 2: And they did the people going there on behalf of

100
00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,600
Speaker 2: industry have the riggle room to say, well, if you've

101
00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,000
Speaker 2: got a really big problem with barra mundy fishing, if

102
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,719
Speaker 2: that was, for example, for example, one of the issues,

103
00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,000
Speaker 2: can we get the mudcrab operators in, how do we

104
00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,080
Speaker 2: minimize this impact, How do we try and reduce the

105
00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,160
Speaker 2: impact of just a flat note. But at this point

106
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,400
Speaker 2: in time, we don't have that level of information and

107
00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,400
Speaker 2: we really need to learn from this to make sure

108
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,279
Speaker 2: because we've got the rest of the coastline for Section

109
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 2: nineteen agreements. If you only get one shot to bring

110
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,479
Speaker 2: all those traditional owners together to say here's what the

111
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,320
Speaker 2: offer is, you want to be having conversations before you

112
00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,520
Speaker 2: get to that part. You want to know you're going

113
00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,400
Speaker 2: there with something that solid and makes sense to both

114
00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,960
Speaker 2: the traditional owners into industry. And so we're really concerned

115
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,200
Speaker 2: about the process going forward that we need to get

116
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,000
Speaker 2: that right. We can't afford to waste traditional owners time

117
00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 2: with an offer that's not good enough from their perspectives

118
00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,000
Speaker 2: and expectations to then have a know to have waters

119
00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:52,240
Speaker 2: closed and businesses essentially unable to earn an income. So yeah,

120
00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,440
Speaker 2: we've got a lot of work to do very quickly

121
00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,640
Speaker 2: with the Land Council and the nothern territory government to

122
00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,760
Speaker 2: learn from this. But that is just such wold comfort

123
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,680
Speaker 2: right now for those businesses who will geared up. They

124
00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:06,960
Speaker 2: can only operate in this area and now they've got

125
00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:07,680
Speaker 2: nowhere else to go.

126
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,480
Speaker 1: Catherine, what is it going to mean? What kind of

127
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,560
Speaker 1: water impact is there going to be in terms of supply.

128
00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,400
Speaker 2: Yes, The Mini Minimoganella area was really is a really

129
00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,080
Speaker 2: important area for both mud crab operations and Barra Mundy fishing.

130
00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,080
Speaker 2: And some people might think just go fish somewhere else,

131
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,280
Speaker 2: but when we are mud crab fishery, we've got operators

132
00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,200
Speaker 2: spread all around the coastline and they've kind of figured

133
00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,120
Speaker 2: out who fishes were so that they're not fishing too much,

134
00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,560
Speaker 2: they're not fishing on top of each other. To just

135
00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 2: say to those crab operators who have operated in this region,

136
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,240
Speaker 2: I'll go fish somewhere else and catch a fish there.

137
00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,600
Speaker 2: They don't want to go fish on top of someone

138
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:52,080
Speaker 2: else's business. So this was an area that was only

139
00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:56,000
Speaker 2: a couple of hours drive from Darwin Fresh Product to market.

140
00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,480
Speaker 2: It's probably where the majority of the King's threadford thread

141
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,320
Speaker 2: finn come for the barrow Mundy fishery, and in really

142
00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,080
Speaker 2: good years up to twenty percent of the Barra Mundy's

143
00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,840
Speaker 2: catch and around ten percent of the mud cub crab catch.

144
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,640
Speaker 2: So it's not as simple as just go fish somewhere

145
00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,000
Speaker 2: else to catch that same amount of products. We're hearing

146
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,520
Speaker 2: from industry that people are picking up the phones and

147
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,880
Speaker 2: asking more where do I get my product from? For

148
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 2: those operators that were in the many many morganella areas,

149
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,680
Speaker 2: they've got customers that they've got agreements with they now

150
00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,800
Speaker 2: are unable to fulfill those So those businesses are going

151
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:33,640
Speaker 2: to have to look elsewhere and try their best to

152
00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,480
Speaker 2: secure products. So it's going to mostly impact the fresh barra,

153
00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,000
Speaker 2: mundy and kids threadfinn that we see here in Darwin,

154
00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:45,000
Speaker 2: So probably a lot more frozen products that people will see. Yeah,

155
00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,319
Speaker 2: but for those mud crab fishes as well, it's you know,

156
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:49,560
Speaker 2: where are they going to go?

157
00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,440
Speaker 1: Cathern. I am just reading from a report by the

158
00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,600
Speaker 1: ABC and it's online and it does say that Kagadoo

159
00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,800
Speaker 1: Marine Ranger, one of the marine ranger had said that

160
00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,439
Speaker 1: many coastal traditional owners felt that commercial fishers were catching

161
00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,920
Speaker 1: too much near the river mouths and had said that

162
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,200
Speaker 1: commercial netters they're the big problem. They work with the tide,

163
00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,839
Speaker 1: then the tide pushes out, everything gets stuck in there

164
00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:20,240
Speaker 1: and that they push one fifty meters across on the

165
00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,199
Speaker 1: other side and they go up a bit so they

166
00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,240
Speaker 1: overlap each other. So they by the looks of what

167
00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,079
Speaker 1: I'm reading there, had been some concerns raised in terms

168
00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,080
Speaker 1: of the commercial fishing. I mean, what would you say

169
00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,480
Speaker 1: to that when you look at the sustainability that they're

170
00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 1: obviously raising as a worry.

171
00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:43,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's frustrating because I guess both concerned aren't

172
00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,640
Speaker 2: necessarily new. We have heard those concerns from different areas

173
00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:52,040
Speaker 2: around the coastline before. And fishes aren't allowed to set

174
00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,040
Speaker 2: their nets across each other to overlap on a river.

175
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:59,880
Speaker 2: That's not a behavior or a practice that supported and industry.

176
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,160
Speaker 2: It's really closely with fisheries for making sure that what

177
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,000
Speaker 2: they're taking is sustainable. But because this area in particular

178
00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,360
Speaker 2: has had previous discussions and negotiations with government, if that

179
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,720
Speaker 2: was an issue that government was aware of, particularly for

180
00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,960
Speaker 2: this region, they should have gone out there with the

181
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,880
Speaker 2: fisheries staff as part of that negotiation team to present

182
00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:25,240
Speaker 2: the fisheries data to provide some comfort as to this

183
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,559
Speaker 2: area has sustainably caught by mundi, king, thread finn and

184
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:33,560
Speaker 2: mudcrab for twenty thirty forty years. If it wasn't sustainable,

185
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,640
Speaker 2: those businesses couldn't be there. But to present the right

186
00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,400
Speaker 2: information to put people's minds at ease, to share what

187
00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,480
Speaker 2: information is happening with regards to how we manage our fisheries,

188
00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,840
Speaker 2: all the science, all the reporting, the technology that's on

189
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,560
Speaker 2: those boats to fish sustainably. If that wasn't presented, it

190
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:57,720
Speaker 2: should have been. And it's really frustrating reading that ABC

191
00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,200
Speaker 2: report that you're referring to because it also said, you know,

192
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,080
Speaker 2: traditional owners want to know who's accessing their sea country

193
00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 2: and what commercial operators we're taking from it. We've known

194
00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,800
Speaker 2: that for a very long time. That's why Section nineteen

195
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,920
Speaker 2: permits is the way forward, because they want to know

196
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,560
Speaker 2: who the individuals are. We provided the government with the name,

197
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,240
Speaker 2: the licenses, you know how many licenses, what fisheries. All

198
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,080
Speaker 2: that information was known. So again, if you've got one

199
00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:30,360
Speaker 2: shot at a negotiation to reach an agreement, go they're prepared,

200
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,760
Speaker 2: go there with the right information. Traditional owners shouldn't have

201
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,400
Speaker 2: been left with any questions. All the answers should have

202
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,760
Speaker 2: been there for them to give them comfort. And if

203
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,360
Speaker 2: it didn't give them comfort, we need to understand why

204
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,360
Speaker 2: to better understand what we do going forward.

205
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,120
Speaker 1: I am going to have to wrap up, but just

206
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,520
Speaker 1: very quickly, do you have confidence that the Northern Territory

207
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 1: government is going to be able to negotiate this and

208
00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,319
Speaker 1: be able to manage you know, not just this area

209
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,079
Speaker 1: that we've spoken about this morning, but the other area

210
00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,040
Speaker 1: is that of concern also.

211
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,640
Speaker 2: I think for the other areas it really needs their

212
00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,040
Speaker 2: industry agreement. So we need to have a discussion around

213
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,560
Speaker 2: what support do we need from government to make sure

214
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,200
Speaker 2: that industry and the right people are there for those discussions.

215
00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,800
Speaker 2: If a Section nineteen is between a business and traditional owner,

216
00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,800
Speaker 2: it's not appropriate for government to be pitching on behalf

217
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:24,640
Speaker 2: of that business. So we need to have a chat

218
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,960
Speaker 2: about how we get the businesses and traditional owners connected

219
00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,280
Speaker 2: to start forming those relationships. This was a one off,

220
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,880
Speaker 2: short term where government tried to secure access for our industry,

221
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,600
Speaker 2: but going forward it's discussions between industry and traditional owners

222
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,480
Speaker 2: which we need to make sure we're setting up for success.

223
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:47,880
Speaker 1: Ntcafood Council Chief Executive Officer, Katherine Winchester, I always appreciate

224
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:49,760
Speaker 1: your time. Thanks so much for having a chat with

225
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,800
Speaker 1: us this morning, and please do stay in contact.

226
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:53,920
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Katie.

227
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:54,440
Speaker 1: Thank you