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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just on answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, the more anxiety we feel, the more controlling will

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Speaker 2: be to our kids, and that control and overprotection can

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Speaker 2: create shame and anxiety in them, which sets off a

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Speaker 2: vicious cycle of negativity.

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Speaker 3: That we don't really need. It's not healthy for anybody.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson, the founder of Happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com, dot a U and Channel mine's.

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Speaker 3: Parenting expert for parental Guidance. Season two is getting closer,

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Speaker 3: Misshappy Family.

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Speaker 2: Is Kylie, my wife podcast partner munder our six children.

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Speaker 2: You're sitting opposite me here at this desk as we

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Speaker 2: record our podcasts this morning, and you're shaking your head.

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Speaker 2: You're looking at me through quizzical eyes. Is everything okay?

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Speaker 4: No, I'm actually just looking at all of the different

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Speaker 4: mountain formations out the window.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, Okay, that's funny.

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Speaker 2: I thought you were looking at me, but you're not,

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Speaker 2: and now I'm disappointed. Kylie, we need to talk about anxiety.

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Speaker 2: Anxiety is on the rise. We're seeing more and more

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Speaker 2: studies showing that mums dads cares children adolescents. No matter

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Speaker 2: where we look in Western society, we're seeing an increase,

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Speaker 2: an uptick in anxiety.

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Speaker 3: People are worried, people are fifth well, people.

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Speaker 2: Are apprehensive, people are in a chronic state of stress,

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Speaker 2: believing that bad things are coming.

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Speaker 3: I think it might have something to do with the

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Speaker 3: fact that we're paying.

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Speaker 2: You could literally buy a house for what it costs

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Speaker 2: to eat a lettuce these days.

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Speaker 4: I was behind a lady, an older lady, at the

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Speaker 4: shopping center the other day, and she obviously thought I

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Speaker 4: saw what she paid for her groceries. I didn't, and

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Speaker 4: she kind of turned to me and she said, it's

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Speaker 4: almost impossible to eat healthy these days. And she kind

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Speaker 4: of pointed to her trolley and she said, it cost

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Speaker 4: me fifty dollars. And she literally had a packet with

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Speaker 4: the two small cos lettuces in it, a small piece

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Speaker 4: of steak, two tomatoes I can't remember, but there's only

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Speaker 4: a few other things like that. There was nothing in

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Speaker 4: the trolley. I honestly, I could not believe that it

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Speaker 4: costs that much. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, they're saying that some relief is on

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Speaker 2: the way, but gee, it's a lot, but there's all

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Speaker 2: sorts of.

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Speaker 3: Other things that are prompting anxiety. Right, We've got un

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Speaker 3: two dollars twenty eight for petrol, Yeah, unaffordable housing.

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Speaker 2: The kids are under pressure because we want them to

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Speaker 2: do well at school. And then there's just the everyday

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Speaker 2: life stuff like relationships are tricky without all the extra

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Speaker 2: pressure where everyone's working too much, everyone's always busy. And

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Speaker 2: so today we thought we would have a conversation about anxiety.

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Speaker 2: Are you an anxious parent? How do you know if

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Speaker 2: you're an anxious parent? And is your anxiety having any

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Speaker 2: impact on the way you're raising your kids or even

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Speaker 2: your children's level of anxiety.

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Speaker 4: I thought it'd be really good to understand what anxiety

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Speaker 4: actually is.

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Speaker 2: Well, the Australian Psychological Society defines anxiety as a natural

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Speaker 2: and usually short lived reaction to a stressful situation, and

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Speaker 2: it's associated with feelings of worry or nervousness or apprehension.

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Speaker 2: That's a direct quote because I used that quote all

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Speaker 2: the time in my presentations about anxiety. So let me

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Speaker 2: go through that bit by bit.

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Speaker 4: Well, what I love about that is literally the very

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Speaker 4: first word is it's natural. Right, It's a natural feeling

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Speaker 4: emotion that we experience as a.

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Speaker 3: Result of a stressful situation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we need to get clear on what natural means.

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Speaker 2: That means that a lot of people say, I just

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Speaker 2: I wish that I didn't have any anxiety. If you

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Speaker 2: didn't have any anxiety, you would not have any risk aversion.

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Speaker 2: You would have this constant sensation seeking where you were

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Speaker 2: doing things that were really dangerous all the time.

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Speaker 3: Anxiety.

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Speaker 4: I think we have a child like that, maybe too.

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Speaker 2: Anxiety just goes for it. Anxiety keeps us safe. It

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Speaker 2: keeps us away from the edge of the cliff metaphorically

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Speaker 2: and literally speaking. But here's the other thing. When you

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Speaker 2: have a healthy form of anxiety, not only is it

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Speaker 2: a naturally occurring emotion, but it's usually short lived and

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Speaker 2: it's in reaction to that stressful event.

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Speaker 4: Well, not only in reaction to the stress will event,

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Speaker 4: but an appropriate.

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Speaker 3: Level yeah proportionally yes. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So if we look at what it means to experience stress,

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Speaker 2: the best way to define stress is when there is

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Speaker 2: some pressure or tension being exerted where you have to respond. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so getting out of bed places stress on your legs.

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Speaker 2: It's only a little bit of stress, and if we've

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Speaker 2: looked after our bodies, our legs can handle that amount

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Speaker 2: of stress, but there is stress being placed on those

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Speaker 2: muscles and that actually strengthens them. We do need to

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Speaker 2: experience stress and stressful events in our lives because they

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Speaker 2: strengthen us as well. So anxiety natural and healthy and

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Speaker 2: usually short lived in response to stress. The problem that

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Speaker 2: we have with anxiety going haywire is when our anxiety

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Speaker 2: is disproportionate to the issue. For example, you're at the

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Speaker 2: park and your little one wants to play on the

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Speaker 2: swing or the slippery dip, and you freaquent and say no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: you can't do that because you might get hurt. When

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Speaker 2: everyone else with the same developmental capacity, same age, they're

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Speaker 2: running around having fun, but you're being that helicopter parent.

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Speaker 2: That's disproportionate response to a slightly stressful situation, a developmentally

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Speaker 2: appropriate stressful situation. And so what happens when you're feeling

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Speaker 2: that anxiety is you experience that feelings of worry, the apprehension,

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Speaker 2: the fear, the nervousness. Again, their normal healthy feelings when

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Speaker 2: they're proportionate and functional and keeping you safe. Unfortunately, this

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Speaker 2: conversation matters because increasingly parents are experiencing anxiety, real anxiety

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Speaker 2: that is not natural, that is not short lived, and

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Speaker 2: is not in the appropriate proportionate response to the level

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Speaker 2: of stress that the situation demands.

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Speaker 3: So that's what we're talking about.

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Speaker 4: So I'm wondering if there's any science on this.

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Speaker 2: So there's a research team in Amsterdam who have done

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of study on this over the last

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Speaker 2: couple of decades, really big research projects looking at the

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Speaker 2: relationship between parental anxiety and child anxiety, and.

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Speaker 3: There's something fascinating about it.

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Speaker 2: Brene Brown actually, before I talk about the Amsterdam researchers,

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Speaker 2: Brene Brown says, and I quote, anxiety is one of

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Speaker 2: the most contagious emotions that we experience, and many mental

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Speaker 2: health professionals and researchers believe that because anxiety is so contagious,

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Speaker 2: it's rarely a function of individuals. It's a function of

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Speaker 2: groups like Domino's. Once a person's anxiety flares up, it's

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Speaker 2: really hard for it not to spread.

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Speaker 3: It's the contagion. And so you think about it.

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Speaker 2: When you're talking to people and they say that they're

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Speaker 2: really anxious about something, what happens you start to worry

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Speaker 2: if you should be anxious about it as well.

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Speaker 4: I'm thinking back to my high school days when I would,

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Speaker 4: you know, show up for an exam.

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Speaker 3: That's exactly what I was going to use.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I wasn't stressed out at all. And then

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Speaker 4: I would catch up with my friends and they had

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Speaker 4: been up all night studying like crazy, freaking out.

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Speaker 3: Did you study what was on page forty two?

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Speaker 4: And here I am thinking what am I missing? I

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Speaker 4: must have missed something. Maybe I'm not as well prepared

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Speaker 4: as I thought I was. And so then my anxiety

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Speaker 4: levers would go through the roof because they were anxious,

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Speaker 4: not me.

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Speaker 2: And that's the same with our kids, right our kids

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Speaker 2: catch our anxieties. But Vanderbruggen and these other researchers in Amsterdam,

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Speaker 2: they discovered something really quite interesting. There's something that happens

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Speaker 2: between especially when anxiety is being passed from parent child,

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Speaker 2: There's something that happens in the middle. Let's go back

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Speaker 2: to that example what I used in the park before.

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Speaker 2: If you're watching your child move in the direction in

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Speaker 2: the park that you're not comfortable with, you start to

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Speaker 2: feel anxiety. And what do you do when you feel

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Speaker 2: that anxiety.

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Speaker 4: Well, usually freak out. Your emotions become quite big.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, Okay, So there's the nervousness, the apprehension,

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Speaker 2: the fear of the worry.

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Speaker 3: But then what do you do in relation to your child, Well, you.

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Speaker 4: Just stop them from doing what they want to do.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So when you step in and do that, there's

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Speaker 2: a word for that starts with see.

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Speaker 3: Well we become more controlling exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: And so what VanderBrug and then these other researchers in

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Speaker 2: Amsterdam discovered is that there's actually a relationship between parental

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Speaker 2: anxiety and parental control. The more anxious you are as

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Speaker 2: a parent, the more controlling you are as a parent.

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Speaker 2: But then the more controlling you are as a parent,

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Speaker 2: what do you think it does to your child?

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Speaker 4: They become anxious, they become fearful right of the things

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Speaker 4: that you're actually controlling. I've never thought about it as

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Speaker 4: anxiety or anxious parenting. For me, it's been fearful based.

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Speaker 4: I think about my upbringing. My parents were fearful of

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Speaker 4: what could happen, the what ifs, and so their control

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Speaker 4: was like through the roof because they wanted to protect me.

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Speaker 4: I knew that and I understood that, but I just

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Speaker 4: felt caged.

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Speaker 3: So this is and this is the difficulty with it. Right.

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Speaker 2: So this is well intentioned parenting, and you are a

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Speaker 2: good parent if you're protecting your child, like that's what

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Speaker 2: we do as parents, supposed to protect our kids. The

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Speaker 2: difficulty comes in when we start to protect our children

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Speaker 2: in ways that are not healthy and functional, that are

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Speaker 2: disproportionately high relevant relative to the level of risk that

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Speaker 2: our child faces. And that's where our anxiety leads to

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Speaker 2: controlling parenting, which increases the anxiety in the child, and

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Speaker 2: it increases the anxiety in the child for a couple

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Speaker 2: of reasons, and I'm going to tell you what they

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Speaker 2: are after the break. The twenty first century is a

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Speaker 2: tricky time to be a teen girl. Alcohol, drugs, mental

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Speaker 2: health concerns, body image issues, technology, sex. Our daughters face

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Speaker 2: all these and more. The Happy Family's Misconnection Summit brings

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Speaker 2: together the best modern day experts on teen girls to

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Speaker 2: show you how to stay connected with your daughter and

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Speaker 2: help her face these challenges head on, available online via

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Speaker 2: video at the Happy Families webshop.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast, The podcast with a time

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Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers now and today we're

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Speaker 4: talking about anxiety and the challenges associated with that and

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Speaker 4: how we can help our children navigate this. If as parents,

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Speaker 4: we feel anxious.

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Speaker 2: So when we get anxious and our control goes up,

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Speaker 2: our children catch that anxiety as well. And they catch

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Speaker 2: it for a couple of reasons. One is they see

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Speaker 2: our anxiety. They read our body language, they see that

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Speaker 2: we're fearful, worried, or apprehensive, and so they start scanning

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Speaker 2: the environment worried that they've missed something in the environment

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Speaker 2: that we're aware of.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's kind of like the exam.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's the emotional contagion aspect. But there's another

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Speaker 2: reason they get anxious.

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Speaker 4: They want to do what they want to do.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we could say that, but there's also another reason.

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Speaker 2: So there's a third reason. I didn't think of that one.

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Speaker 4: I think they get stressed about the response.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, they get worried. They're in trouble.

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Speaker 2: Because when we become anxious and overprotective and become quite controlling,

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Speaker 2: we don't tend to speak softly, gently and klindly to

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Speaker 2: our children. We tend to raise our voice, say hey,

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Speaker 2: stop that, come away. From there, and it's almost like

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Speaker 2: they're in trouble, they've done the wrong thing. That increases

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Speaker 2: their anxiety. Why what happens actually is when a child

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Speaker 2: gets into trouble, they start to feel shame. They feel

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Speaker 2: like they're unworthy, they've done the wrong thing, they're not

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Speaker 2: competent or capable. They're getting it all wrong in our eyes.

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Speaker 2: And with that feeling of shame and worry and fear

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Speaker 2: that they're getting that wrong, they become increasingly anxious because

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Speaker 2: they want to please us so much, they want our approval,

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Speaker 2: they want to make sure they're going in the right direction,

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Speaker 2: and so their anxiety increases that way as well, which

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Speaker 2: of course puts them on edge and makes it even

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Speaker 2: more likely that they'll do stuff that we don't approve of,

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Speaker 2: which only repeats the cycle further and further.

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Speaker 3: It's a vicious, vicious cycle. So when we look at.

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Speaker 2: The data, what we're really seeing is that emotions go up,

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Speaker 2: intelligence goes down, that is, anxiety goes up, and we

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Speaker 2: become more controlling, and then our kids catch our anxiety.

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Speaker 2: Oh but then once we see our kids are anxious,

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Speaker 2: what do we do? We become more anxious. Oh, my goodness,

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Speaker 2: you're looking so worried. Should I be worried about the

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Speaker 2: fact that you're worried? I think my child might have anxiety.

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Speaker 2: I wonder where they got it from. Oh did I

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Speaker 2: just say that?

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Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean? So that's what we're

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Speaker 3: dealing with. Now we need to talk about some solutions.

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Speaker 4: Here is the podcast for the time poor parent who

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Speaker 4: just wants antswers Honey.

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Speaker 2: So let's do this in like three minutes or less.

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Speaker 2: Let's go through some solutions. I know that you've got

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Speaker 2: a couple. I've got a whole bunch of things that

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Speaker 2: I want to say about what you've got to say.

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Speaker 4: Well, I found a clinical psychologist, Laura Kameia, and she

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Speaker 4: actually says a big part of treatment for children with

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Speaker 4: anxiety is actually teaching parents stress tolerance.

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Speaker 2: So the way that I say that, I'm so glad

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Speaker 2: you use that stress tolerance is a beautiful phrase to

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Speaker 2: remember here. Anxiety is about tolerating stress. Remember, anxiety is

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Speaker 2: a natural and short lived response to a stressful situation.

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Speaker 4: And stress is a natural part Yeah my life.

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Speaker 2: We need the stress so that we can grow, develop

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Speaker 2: gets stronger, just like our muscles needs stress to be bigger.

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Speaker 3: And better. So the way that I describe.

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Speaker 2: This is as parents, we need to get comfortable with

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Speaker 2: our children being uncomfortable.

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Speaker 4: Well, we need to get comfortable with ourselves being uncomfortable.

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Speaker 3: First we do. You're right, it's us first.

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Speaker 4: We can't help our children if we actually can't navigate

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Speaker 4: this ourselves. And she actually goes on to it's a

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Speaker 4: simultaneous process. It's both directing the parents' anxiety and then

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Speaker 4: how they can also support and scaffold the children's development

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Speaker 4: of stress tolerance.

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Speaker 3: That's good, That's really good. I like that.

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Speaker 2: You'll usually see that there's a gender bias here as well.

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Speaker 2: Mums don't tend to tolerate that stress nearly as well

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Speaker 2: as dad's. Dads are much more inclined to encourage their

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Speaker 2: children to take risks and bump up against the edges,

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Speaker 2: find the boundaries.

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Speaker 4: So she actually came up with five things that can

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Speaker 4: really help us navigate this space of anxiety and stress

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Speaker 4: and help our children in the process. Number one was

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Speaker 4: to learn what your triggers are. Sure, so if turning

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Speaker 4: the news on and watching all of the devastation that

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Speaker 4: is happening around the world is actually a trigger for

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Speaker 4: your anxiety, then setting some boundaries around when and how

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Speaker 4: you might engage in that if it's important for you,

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Speaker 4: is really important. Then the second one was to model

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Speaker 4: stress tolerance. And what I loved about this was the

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Speaker 4: fact that it's really important to acknowledge to our kids

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Speaker 4: that we're experiencing emotions. Yes, whether they're what you would

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Speaker 4: consider normally talk about as being negative or positive emotions.

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Speaker 4: Our children need to recognize and understand that this is

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Speaker 4: actually a normal part of life and it's okay to

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Speaker 4: experience them. If we constantly feel like we have to

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Speaker 4: hide those commonly called and negative emotions from our children,

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Speaker 4: then what we actually model to them is it's not

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Speaker 4: okay to have them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and Mommie model at what we're actually doing is

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Speaker 2: we're practicing having those emotions in healthy and functional ways.

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Speaker 2: So there's a phrase that I like to use when

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Speaker 2: I'm speaking out loud about how I'm feeling. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you've ever caught me using it around the house,

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Speaker 2: but I'll often say something, I'm beginning to notice that

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Speaker 2: I'm getting stressed or I'm starting to notice that, And

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Speaker 2: so the keyword here is starting to notice, beginning to

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Speaker 2: notice when we're beginning to notice what we're actually doing

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Speaker 2: is sort of stepping outside ourselves. So we're we're experiencing

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Speaker 2: the emotion, but we're stepping outside of ourselves to talk

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Speaker 2: about how.

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Speaker 3: We're experiencing it.

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Speaker 2: And when we say it out loud, the kids get

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Speaker 2: to hear it. They hear us practicing having the emotion

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Speaker 2: in a healthy and functional way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I love it. And number four is to make

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Speaker 4: a plan. If you recognize and know that your emotions

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Speaker 4: get a little bit out of control when there's stress,

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Speaker 4: understanding and knowing what your plan is to help you

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Speaker 4: get through it can be really really powerful.

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Speaker 2: A little while ago, I did a workshop about flipping

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Speaker 2: the script, how it can stop yelling the screaming spiral,

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Speaker 2: And one of the central things that I emphasized is

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Speaker 2: that under pressure, we revert to our most practiced habit.

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Speaker 2: And if you want to stop yelling or stop having

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Speaker 2: anxiety the way that it's interfering in function healthy functioning,

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Speaker 2: you need to have an alternative behavior to go to,

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Speaker 2: and you've got to practice it and practice it and

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Speaker 2: practice it especially at times when you're not under pressure.

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Speaker 4: And I think that that's where that mindfulness practice. So

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Speaker 4: often we think that you know, I'm feeling stressed, so

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Speaker 4: I'm going to practice deep breathing. But if you haven't

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Speaker 4: actually practiced breathing when you're not under stress, then it

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Speaker 4: feels uncomfortable, it's not natural, and it actually doesn't do

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Speaker 4: a lot yes to help you spot So creating some

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Speaker 4: mindful practices that you just include in your everyday life,

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Speaker 4: regardless of your stress levels, will go a long way

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Speaker 4: to helping you in making that plan actually.

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Speaker 3: Work for you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just just practice keeping you cool. However you're going

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Speaker 2: to do it, work out what strategy works for you,

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Speaker 2: and practice it, because under pressure, you will revert to

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Speaker 2: your most practiced habit.

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Speaker 4: And number five, find a support system. We've talked about

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Speaker 4: this a little bit, this acknowledgment that as parents, we

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Speaker 4: feel like we have to do it all ourselves, But

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Speaker 4: the reality is we in seeking help and support from

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Speaker 4: other people, we actually give them permission to be okay

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Speaker 4: with their big emotions as well, and we can create

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Speaker 4: that village that I talk about all the time.

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Speaker 2: Your support network only has to be one or two people.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be an entire village, Just one

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Speaker 2: or two is a half. Let's wrap this up take

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Speaker 2: home message anxiety is and natural and healthy, short lived

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Speaker 2: response to stressful situations. We need to make sure that

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Speaker 2: if we're experiencing any level of anxiety that fear, worry,

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Speaker 2: in apprehension about the future, that it's proportionate to the

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Speaker 2: situation that's in front of us. And we need to

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Speaker 2: be aware that the more anxiety we feel, the more

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Speaker 2: controlling will be to our kids, and that control and

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Speaker 2: overprotection can create shame and anxiety in them, which sets

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Speaker 2: off a vicious cycle of negativity that we don't really need.

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Speaker 2: It's not healthy for anybody.

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Speaker 3: So what do we do?

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Speaker 4: One we learn our triggers, Two we model stress tolerance,

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Speaker 4: Three we explain our anxiety and number four make a

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Speaker 4: plan and number five find a support system.

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Speaker 2: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Ruhlan from

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Speaker 2: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. Thanks so

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Speaker 2: much for listening. We know that you could do any

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Speaker 2: number of other things with your time, so we appreciate

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Speaker 2: so very much that you listen to the podcast. If

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Speaker 2: you enjoy it, please tell a friend about it, leave

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Speaker 2: us a five star rating and review so that the

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Speaker 2: Apple algorithm can tell people about it and more information,

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Speaker 2: visit us at happy families dot com, dot a you

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Speaker 3: Hm