WEBVTT - How bots are distorting the truth

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this da This is the Daily OS. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Wednesday,

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<v Speaker 2>the ninth of October. I'm Zara, I'm Chloe. A new

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<v Speaker 2>digital player is helping to shape public discourse online. How

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<v Speaker 2>an audience feels about a brand, a narrative, a personality

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<v Speaker 2>or a scandal is now being molded by the rise

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<v Speaker 2>of bots.

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<v Speaker 1>Pr bots to be specific. These bots can be programmed

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<v Speaker 1>to target your social media algorithms and the content you

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<v Speaker 1>do or don't get served. In today's deep dive, we'll

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<v Speaker 1>explore how these digital armies can be mobilized to influence

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<v Speaker 1>public opinion and even elections. The first aurah what's making headlines.

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<v Speaker 2>Federal Opposition leader Peter Dutton has refused to support a

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<v Speaker 2>government motion marking one year since Hummus's attack on Israel.

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<v Speaker 2>In an address from Camberra yesterday, PM Anthony Alberzi said

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<v Speaker 2>that quote Parliament comes together again to unequivocally condemn Hamas's

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<v Speaker 2>actions in Israel on October seven, which he said will

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<v Speaker 2>always be a day of pain. The PM also acknowledged

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<v Speaker 2>the quote devastating humanitarian crisis in Gaza and said that

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<v Speaker 2>every innocent Israeli, Palestinian and Lebanese life quote matters. He

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<v Speaker 2>called for an immediate ceasefire and the release of all hostages.

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<v Speaker 2>Opposition leader Peter Dudden refused to support that motion, which

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<v Speaker 2>he said was quote supposed to be about October seven

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<v Speaker 2>about the loss of human life. Dun And accused Albanesi

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<v Speaker 2>of lacking quote respect for the Jewish community and trying

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<v Speaker 2>to please all people in this debate.

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<v Speaker 1>Residents in the US state of Florida are on high

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<v Speaker 1>alert as a brace for Hurricane Milton. Authorities have described

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<v Speaker 1>the category five storm as extremely dangerous. Milton is expected

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<v Speaker 1>to make a landfall in the southeastern state over the

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<v Speaker 1>next day, bringing life threatening storm surgeon and damaging wins

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<v Speaker 1>with it. The Federal Emergency Management Agency, or FEMA, has

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<v Speaker 1>issued evacuation orders across parts of Florida. While heavy rain

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<v Speaker 1>has already drenched parts of the state. Authorities are also

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<v Speaker 1>concerned about the risk of coastal flooding along the neighboring

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<v Speaker 1>South Carolina and Georgia coasts. Emergency services are urging residents

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<v Speaker 1>to protect themselves and take care of others.

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<v Speaker 2>Quantus has been ordered to pay one hundred million dollars

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<v Speaker 2>in penalties following landmark legal action brought by the Consumer

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<v Speaker 2>Watchdog in the Federal Court. The HBLEC accused Quantus of

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<v Speaker 2>misleading consumers by selling tickets on thousands of canceled flights

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<v Speaker 2>and failing to inform customers. In particular cases, the atriple

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<v Speaker 2>C found evidence of flights being offered for up to

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<v Speaker 2>two months after Quantus had decided it would cancel the service.

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<v Speaker 2>Earlier this year, Quantus agreed to pay around twenty million

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<v Speaker 2>dollars to reimburse impacted customers. It's now been fined an

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<v Speaker 2>additional one hundred million dollars after the court sided with

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<v Speaker 2>the Consumer Watchdog.

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<v Speaker 1>And for today's good News, ninety nine year old veteran

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<v Speaker 1>Glenn Dobby has been honored at a ceremony in South

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<v Speaker 1>Australia where he received his World War II Service Medal.

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<v Speaker 1>Dobby was shot during service on the Solomon Islands as

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<v Speaker 1>a nineteen year old at the end of World War Two.

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<v Speaker 1>The overdue medal was presented to the veteran in front

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<v Speaker 1>of his son and a crowd of veterans in Adelaide

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<v Speaker 1>last week.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, Chloe, you've become something of a bot expert in

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<v Speaker 2>the last couple of weeks. But for anyone that hasn't

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<v Speaker 2>spent as much time in the weeds of botmania as

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<v Speaker 2>you have, can you just explain what exactly is a bot?

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<v Speaker 1>I have been in the weeds of the botmania. It's

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<v Speaker 1>quite a place to be. And it can sound really

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<v Speaker 1>techy when we talk about this stuff, but it's pretty

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<v Speaker 1>much every time you jump on social media and you

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<v Speaker 1>see somewhat of a spammy comment on a popular Instagram account.

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<v Speaker 1>Just look at the Daily Yos's account, you'll see plenty

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<v Speaker 1>of them.

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<v Speaker 2>Excellent plug, excellent plug.

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<v Speaker 1>You'll see them most often in the common section within

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<v Speaker 1>seconds of making a on Instagram.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I feel like, you know, even if you

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<v Speaker 2>just look at our Instagram, you're seeing things like how

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<v Speaker 2>coach Sarah changed my life. They've changed the name of

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<v Speaker 2>Sarah to multiple different women. But there you go. There's

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<v Speaker 2>some like semi nude women that have come up in

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<v Speaker 2>gifts in our comment section.

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<v Speaker 1>Click on my bio you'll get rich fast.

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<v Speaker 2>So those sorts of comments you're saying, those are coming

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<v Speaker 2>from bot accounts, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeap, So that is a bot account. But when we

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<v Speaker 1>look at bots more broadly, bots are programmed to perform automated,

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<v Speaker 1>repetitive tasks over a network. Okay, so they're deliberately designed

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<v Speaker 1>to mimic human behavior. They look like humans, they sound

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<v Speaker 1>like real users. Only bots can generate content at a

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<v Speaker 1>speed and a scale that we humans simply couldn't. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's thousands upon thousands of comments a day. There are

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<v Speaker 1>some helpful bots like chat gpt is, a chatbot, Siri Alexa,

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<v Speaker 1>but others, as we know, are less helpful.

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<v Speaker 2>They are less helpful, but they are absolutely everywhere. Like

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<v Speaker 2>it takes, you know, one second of looking, as you said,

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<v Speaker 2>at a popular account and you just get flooded with

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<v Speaker 2>this stuff. How significant I mean, I'm just using anecdotal

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<v Speaker 2>evidence here. So how significant are the presence of these

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<v Speaker 2>bots in the online world?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's wild. And to give you a sense of

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<v Speaker 1>the scale of things, nearly half of all online traffic

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty three came from fake users.

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<v Speaker 2>That is crazy.

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<v Speaker 1>So bots, yeah, now, that's according to a new report

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<v Speaker 1>by IT security firm Imperva, which also found that bad

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<v Speaker 1>bots programmed to defraud and scam users accounted for nearly

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<v Speaker 1>one third of all of that traffic.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, I mean I knew they were everywhere, but that's

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<v Speaker 2>really there everywhere.

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<v Speaker 1>They're everywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>And so when we're thinking about bots, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>think that anyone that has spent time on the Internet

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<v Speaker 2>knows not to click on you know, come earn money

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<v Speaker 2>with me with your crypto dollars, you know in our

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<v Speaker 2>comment section. Ye, But what are some of the other

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<v Speaker 2>ways the bots show up or the other ways that

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<v Speaker 2>they can I guess influence behaviors or conversations.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's a whole different podcast about how people are

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<v Speaker 1>scammed and frauded into clicking on things that they shouldn't.

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<v Speaker 1>But what I was really interested in was the way

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<v Speaker 1>bots can be used to make an opinion seem like

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<v Speaker 1>a fact, or to make it feel and seem as

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<v Speaker 1>though it has either widespread support or widespread opposition for something.

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<v Speaker 1>What does that do for real users online? Because if

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<v Speaker 1>you can gear thousands upon thousands of accounts to push

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<v Speaker 1>a certain narrative, that can be really dangerous if we

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<v Speaker 1>think about elections or democracy or just public discourse at large.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a really interesting topic, but it does still seem

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<v Speaker 2>quite up there, and I would love to bring it

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<v Speaker 2>down to down here. Is there an example that you

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<v Speaker 2>can just provide I guess, to give some orientation as

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<v Speaker 2>to what you're actually talking about here.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's just say you're scrolling on X and you

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<v Speaker 1>read a bunch of different tweets, retweets shares comments of

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<v Speaker 1>those tweets saying apples are really really bad for you

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<v Speaker 1>and instead you should be buying oranges. This is really basic,

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<v Speaker 1>but just to wrap my heads around it, you're probably

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<v Speaker 1>going to start feeling a little bit suss about apples,

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<v Speaker 1>even though you might really like them. You just sort

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<v Speaker 1>of have a bit of questions about that. You might

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<v Speaker 1>even consider buying more oranges. And bots can create these

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<v Speaker 1>spaces that feel like communities are sharing ideas that it's

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<v Speaker 1>just normal people talking about how we all don't really

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<v Speaker 1>like apples, but there is an agenda at play. Now

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<v Speaker 1>when you consider the influence that, as I said, this

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<v Speaker 1>could have on politics or elections.

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<v Speaker 2>Not just apples and oranges, not justs.

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<v Speaker 1>And oranges, it can be really scary.

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<v Speaker 2>What are the experts say about bots? Because you know

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<v Speaker 2>they are a fairly new phenomenon, but there must be

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<v Speaker 2>a body of research out there.

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<v Speaker 1>I reached out to a bot doc. Of course, a

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<v Speaker 1>bot doc has a dock of bot. She does have

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<v Speaker 1>a real name. Her name is doctor Sophia Mellinson Richard

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<v Speaker 1>done from Canada's McMaster University. Now, she did a PhD

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<v Speaker 1>on Bota gander when bot armies generate mass content to

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<v Speaker 1>saturate social media feeds and then manipulate audiences. So doctor

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<v Speaker 1>Richardoni told me about something called hashtag flooding, which is

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<v Speaker 1>essentially a tweet containing nothing but popularized keywords and catchphrases

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<v Speaker 1>in the form of hashtag.

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<v Speaker 2>After hashtag after hashtag, so annoying.

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<v Speaker 1>So annoying. Now, this tactic, as well as the rapid

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<v Speaker 1>re sharing of human posts so twenty five thousand in

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<v Speaker 1>ten minutes, can create, like we were saying before, this

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<v Speaker 1>illusion of widespread support or widespread opposition for specific viewpoints.

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<v Speaker 1>She says that this happens as though the idea embedded

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<v Speaker 1>in the tweet came from grassroots popularization. So when we're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about mimicking human behavior, it's this feeling of oh,

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<v Speaker 1>everyone thinks.

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<v Speaker 2>This, and you want to be a part of the everyone,

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<v Speaker 2>Like that's the human condition, right exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the concept of herd mentality, which is the idea

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<v Speaker 1>that individuals naturally want to conform to the dominant view

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<v Speaker 1>of the community.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean it's so fascinating. And the reason that

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<v Speaker 2>you came to I don't want to say become obsessed

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<v Speaker 2>with this topic, but I had started your fascination was

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<v Speaker 2>around one example that we've seen in the last couple

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<v Speaker 2>of years. Talk me through the Johnny Depp amber Heard story.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if many people will remember what the

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<v Speaker 1>internet looked like in twenty twenty two during the Johnny

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<v Speaker 1>Depp Amber Herd defamation trial, but I recently listened to

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<v Speaker 1>a six part podcast that brought me right back there.

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<v Speaker 1>So for people who need a refresher on the story, Essentially,

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<v Speaker 1>Johnny Depp filed a lawsuit against his ex wife amber

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<v Speaker 1>Heard over an opinion article Herd wrote for The Washington Post.

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<v Speaker 1>She alleged she had experienced domestic abuse. Her didn't name Depp,

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<v Speaker 1>but he launched defamation proceedings against her, arguing he was

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<v Speaker 1>identifiable from the article and depth denies claims that he

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<v Speaker 1>physically abused her. Now, a jury in Fairfax County, Virginia

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately sided with Depp, and Herd was sued for defaming him.

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<v Speaker 1>But I think you might remember that the court proceedings

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<v Speaker 1>were streamed online.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I was going to say, can you, in

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<v Speaker 2>the of our listeners connect what we've just been talking about,

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<v Speaker 2>which is, you know, all of this stuff about bots

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<v Speaker 2>and this case, what's the connection here?

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<v Speaker 1>So, as the case played out in the courtroom, the

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<v Speaker 1>internet mounted its own unofficial trial of Amber Heard. This

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<v Speaker 1>is the premise of the podcast I was talking about earlier,

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<v Speaker 1>Who Trolled Amber? It's by UK media organization Tortoise. The

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<v Speaker 1>podcast found that a large part of the online hate

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<v Speaker 1>campaign against Herd was actually manufactured and executed by bot accounts.

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<v Speaker 1>Now I spoke to Xavier Greenwood. He produced the Who

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<v Speaker 1>Trolled Amber podcast.

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<v Speaker 3>Some of the main themes were that Amberherd deserves prison,

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<v Speaker 3>Amber Heard as a gold digger, Amberhard as a fraud,

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<v Speaker 3>Amber Heard as a liar. To give you a sense

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<v Speaker 3>of the scale of things, there was a hashtag justice

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<v Speaker 3>for Johnny Depp that was viewed fifteen point seven billion times.

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<v Speaker 3>Hashtag just as for Amberherd viewed a fraction of that.

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<v Speaker 3>And my friends were suddenly saying things that didn't really

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<v Speaker 3>sound like them. They were saying, well, yeah, what if

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<v Speaker 3>this time she was the abuser? And these were people

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<v Speaker 3>who typically in the me too movement would be a

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<v Speaker 3>bit more cynical or maybe a bit more reserved and

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<v Speaker 3>making a judgment like that. So yeah, from the beginning,

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<v Speaker 3>we sort of saw that this was quite suspicious.

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<v Speaker 2>What else did this investigation uncover?

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<v Speaker 1>So the team A Tortoise brought together a database of

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<v Speaker 1>over one million anti amber Heard tweets and they brought

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<v Speaker 1>it together and they found that more than half of

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<v Speaker 1>them were inauthentic. So what that means is either they

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<v Speaker 1>were posted from spam accounts with three followers and they

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<v Speaker 1>were built in the last two months, or they were

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<v Speaker 1>amplified in an inauthentic way so reshared and reshared thousands

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<v Speaker 1>upon thousands of times.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I think the thing that I wonder when I

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<v Speaker 2>hear about this story is like, who is behind this

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<v Speaker 2>trolling campaign? It's very clear who benefits from it, but

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<v Speaker 2>who's behind.

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<v Speaker 1>It we don't know. According to the investigation, the team

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<v Speaker 1>could hypothesize multiple different scenarios and their likely were multiple

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<v Speaker 1>different agendas at player.

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<v Speaker 2>It's crazy, So this could.

0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:09.200
<v Speaker 1>Be genuine Johnny Depp fans who can acquire bots for

0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.720
<v Speaker 1>pretty cheap online and push support for their favorite actor

0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.080
<v Speaker 1>in other scenarios, Xavier floats what he calls a more

0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:17.080
<v Speaker 1>abstract theory.

0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.199
<v Speaker 3>I think it's sort of fairly widely known now that

0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:24.760
<v Speaker 3>authoritarian regimes who want to sow discouse or want to

0:12:24.800 --> 0:12:28.800
<v Speaker 3>cause confusion in the West, that they seek out wedge issues.

0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:33.040
<v Speaker 3>So they seek out issues which divide Britain's, divide Americans,

0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.559
<v Speaker 3>divide Australians. They try to sort of drive a deeper wedge.

0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.720
<v Speaker 1>But something that really stuck with me from my conversation

0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.520
<v Speaker 1>with Xavier was a point he made about the future

0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:44.880
<v Speaker 1>of political discourse on social media.

0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:49.520
<v Speaker 3>If you can attack a celebrity who has enormous an

0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.680
<v Speaker 3>enormous amount of resources, as Amber Herd did, whilst to

0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.360
<v Speaker 3>stop someone doing the same thing when it comes to

0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.400
<v Speaker 3>attacking a politician or when it comes to trying to

0:12:58.440 --> 0:12:59.439
<v Speaker 3>sway an election.

0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we're talking there about elections, and we of

0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.760
<v Speaker 2>course know that there is one coming up just around

0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:08.880
<v Speaker 2>the corner in the US. Are we expecting to see

0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:11.800
<v Speaker 2>this sort of interference from bots in the US election

0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:12.760
<v Speaker 2>this year?

0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:18.040
<v Speaker 1>We already have. Last month, the Biden administration charged Russian

0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:22.600
<v Speaker 1>media executives over an alleged targeted online campaign to influence

0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:26.840
<v Speaker 1>voters in the US and push hidden Russian government messaging.

0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.840
<v Speaker 1>Now it comes after US officials seized thirty two Internet

0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:35.480
<v Speaker 1>domain names that were covertly targeting specific demographics on social

0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.080
<v Speaker 1>media and promoting AI generated false narratives and pushing that

0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:40.200
<v Speaker 1>to those groups.

0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.360
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so there are ready allegations that we've seen this

0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.240
<v Speaker 2>at play when it comes to the US election. I mean,

0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.360
<v Speaker 2>I think that a natural endpoint here is that if

0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:54.200
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about the fact that even the most powerful institutions, people,

0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.640
<v Speaker 2>whatever in the world can be susceptible to this kind

0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:00.720
<v Speaker 2>of botagander, as we'll call it, what is like an

0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:02.680
<v Speaker 2>average dough like you or I meant to do when

0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.160
<v Speaker 2>it comes to protecting yourself against something like.

0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:07.079
<v Speaker 1>This, Well, that was what came back in so many

0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.640
<v Speaker 1>of the conversations I was having. For the average dough

0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:11.520
<v Speaker 1>like you and me, A lot of it comes down

0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:16.240
<v Speaker 1>to awareness, staying vigilant, staying curious, question what you're getting served,

0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.520
<v Speaker 1>who's pushing it. And that's generally for anything that you

0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.600
<v Speaker 1>see online, but particularly when you're thinking something looks a

0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.360
<v Speaker 1>bit spammy, it likely might be it's important to be

0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.320
<v Speaker 1>critical about the content you're seeing before you form an opinion,

0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:32.080
<v Speaker 1>especially ahead of an election. Now, as for what comes next,

0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.560
<v Speaker 1>Xavier Greenwood says, we're largely in uncharted waters.

0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.240
<v Speaker 3>What we saw with amberhard trial, we may well continue

0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:41.240
<v Speaker 3>to see in an even more intense way in the

0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.760
<v Speaker 3>future to some extent the genius out of the box.

0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, Chloe, I am absolutely terrified about the state of

0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.480
<v Speaker 2>the internet. So thank you for enlightening me on that,

0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.400
<v Speaker 2>and thanks for jumping on today's pod, and thank you

0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.480
<v Speaker 2>for listening to this episode of The Daily os. If

0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:58.880
<v Speaker 2>you're listening on Spotify or Apple, we would love it

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0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.560
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0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.120
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<v Speaker 2>there and the same thing happens. We'll be back again tomorrow,

0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:11.040
<v Speaker 2>but until then, have a fabulous day.

0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.040
<v Speaker 3>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:21.080
<v Speaker 3>Bungelung Calcoton woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:23.280
<v Speaker 3>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.880
<v Speaker 3>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.800
<v Speaker 3>Right island and nations. We pay our respects to the

0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.600
<v Speaker 3>first peoples of these countries, both past and present,