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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: wants answers.

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Speaker 1: Now, Australian kids are going to be blocked from social

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Speaker 1: media until they reach a certain age under a national

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Speaker 1: Plants target, growing concerns around its impacts on young minds. Today,

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Speaker 1: our conversation on the Happy Families podcast is about what

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Speaker 1: the olben Ezy government is committing to in terms of

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Speaker 1: legislation on social media age limits. This stems from South

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Speaker 1: Australia's Peter Malnascus, I hope he said his name correctly,

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Speaker 1: making a lot of noise about this. Recently, there's been

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Speaker 1: a lot of campaigns. I've been pushing it pretty hard

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Speaker 1: myself and today on the podcast a conversation about this.

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Speaker 1: There are some people who have compared potential restrictions on

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Speaker 1: the technology to cigarettes and alcohol, because we're seeing more

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Speaker 1: and more evidence that as social media is harmful to children.

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Speaker 1: I was on a current Affair with Ali Lang and

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Speaker 1: a bunch of other people last Tuesday night and I

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Speaker 1: want to share with you some clips from that as

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Speaker 1: we go through this. But first off, a couple of

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Speaker 1: things around this. We already do have social media age

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Speaker 1: limits it's supposed to be thirteen and up. The thing

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Speaker 1: is nobody's keeping it. Nobody's well, I shouldn't say nobody.

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Speaker 1: The overwhelming majority of people are not sticking with those

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Speaker 1: age limits. I had a dad recently who had a

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Speaker 1: seven year old on TikTok, and dad said, is that okay?

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Speaker 1: Or should I get them off? I was like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: they need to be off. There is a reason that

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Speaker 1: thirteen is the minimum age for access to these social platforms,

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Speaker 1: and unfortunately that reason, while it's thirteen is better than seven,

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Speaker 1: it's got nothing to do with your children's well being.

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Speaker 1: It's got nothing to do with your children's cognitive or

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Speaker 1: psychological or emotional capacity to deal with what's happening on

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Speaker 1: social media. If we were taking those things into consideration,

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Speaker 1: a lot of adults would not be allowed on social media.

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Speaker 1: So why the age of thirteen as it now exists.

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Speaker 1: Let's start there. Back in the late nineteen nine is

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Speaker 1: before social media was a thing. The tech companies were

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Speaker 1: lobbying the United States Congress. Most of the tech companies,

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Speaker 1: of course, are based in the United States. They were

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Speaker 1: lobbying Congress because the US Congress is where the legislative

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Speaker 1: requirements for what they do are centered around what the

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Speaker 1: age of Internet maturity should be. And Congress basically said, well,

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Speaker 1: what are you asking for and they said, well, we're

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Speaker 1: going to be collecting personal data about the people who

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Speaker 1: are using our products when they're using them on the internet,

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Speaker 1: on this new world wide web thing that's been developed.

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Speaker 1: Congress said, well, age of a data collection for personal

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Speaker 1: private details should probably be somewhere between sixteen and eighteen.

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Speaker 1: And the lobbyists, because they have deep pockets and because

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Speaker 1: not all politicians are focused primarily on what is the

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Speaker 1: common good, Well, the lobbyists one, and the age of

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Speaker 1: twelve was decided, so twelve and under not allowed to

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Speaker 1: collect data. Thirteen and up tech companies collect data. That's

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Speaker 1: the only reason that thirteen is the number that's been selected.

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Speaker 1: Of course, over time we've seen massive changes in technology,

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Speaker 1: and social media is at the very core of this conversation.

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Speaker 1: What's cures to me around this is that we've decided,

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Speaker 1: thanks to people like Jonathan Hate who wrote The Anxious Generation,

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Speaker 1: and many other people who have been waving the flag

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Speaker 1: and saying this is bad for our kids, we've decided

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Speaker 1: that that age needs to be lifted but we don't

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Speaker 1: really have great information, We don't have great evidence for

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Speaker 1: what it should be. The federal government has bipartisan support

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Speaker 1: on raising the age. That is Anthony Oberenezi and the

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Speaker 1: Labor Party have Peter Dutton and the Liberal Party on board.

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Speaker 1: That's fantastic, right. It means that whoever gets voted in

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Speaker 1: next year, we're going to start to see some changes

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Speaker 1: around this regardless, and on an issue like this, this

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Speaker 1: shouldn't come down to politics. This should come down to

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Speaker 1: the safety of our children. So well done to both

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Speaker 1: the major parties on this particular issue. The issue though,

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Speaker 1: becomes what age is going to be the legal requirement,

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Speaker 1: and that has not been identified. Neither the opposition nor

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Speaker 1: the government have told us that, but the whispers are

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Speaker 1: that it's going to be somewhere around about sixteen. Now.

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Speaker 1: Our experience in our happy families family with me and

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Speaker 1: Kylie and our six daughters has told us that this

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Speaker 1: is a thing. We can look at data all day long,

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Speaker 1: and Darted certainly points in the direction that some children

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Speaker 1: really do struggle and suffer as a result of social media.

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Speaker 1: But when we've watched what happens with our children, I

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Speaker 1: think that's been the big thing. I said this on

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Speaker 1: a current affair. The American thinker and writer and academic

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Hayite wrote a book called The Anxious Generation, and

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Speaker 1: in that book he talks about how, over the last

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Speaker 1: couple of decades, we've moved from what you would call

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Speaker 1: a play based childhood to a screen based childhood, and what,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately we see across our young people is a decline

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Speaker 1: in well being because they really truly believe that they're

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Speaker 1: getting their needs met by being on that screen. It's

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Speaker 1: a hollow imitation, but it makes them feel so good

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Speaker 1: in the moment, and so any parent who's trying to

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Speaker 1: have some sort of boundaries and limits around this will

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Speaker 1: come up against tremendous opposition because to the kids it

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Speaker 1: just feels so so good. What we've seen in our

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Speaker 1: family and in the families of those that we're close to,

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Speaker 1: is that kids get less sleep. They're sleep deprived, so

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Speaker 1: they're more moody and irritable. They're more likely to be withdrawn,

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Speaker 1: they're less likely to be social and engaged with the

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Speaker 1: family or even with their friends. The connections that they

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Speaker 1: have online are shallow and hollow relative to the connections

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Speaker 1: that we have face to face and in real life

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Speaker 1: rather than in the virtual world. There's academic outcomes. There's

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Speaker 1: an academic slide when kids are focused on their screen.

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Speaker 1: And every parent that I talk to, literally every parent says, yeah,

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Speaker 1: attitude changes when the kids have been on screens too long.

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Speaker 1: When they go outside and they get some nature into

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Speaker 1: their lives, they suddenly become nicer people. I think that

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Speaker 1: I would sum it up by saying this, there is

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Speaker 1: an urgency around protecting young minds, and that's why this

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Speaker 1: legislation matters. I feel like we've lost a generation. Does

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Speaker 1: it discriminate or has everybody affected you? There's a huge

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Speaker 1: amount of discrimination what research seems to show, and it's

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Speaker 1: fairly fledgling research, it's quite nascent, but research seems to

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Speaker 1: show that kids who have a really strong, positive, healthy

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Speaker 1: life outside the screen seem to do reasonably well when

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Speaker 1: they're on screens as well. But kids who have any

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Speaker 1: kinds of offscreen struggles, they retreat to their screens, and

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Speaker 1: that only amplifies and exacerbates the offscreen struggles, but it

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Speaker 1: also invites a whole lot of other challenges because they're

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Speaker 1: so embedded in their screen life, their social media life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, and this was one of the

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Speaker 1: things that came up on a current affair. I want

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Speaker 1: to play you this snippet. Well, I'd love to bring

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Speaker 1: in Gabby and Matilda here. I want you to explain

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Speaker 1: to me your relationship with social media and your phone.

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Speaker 2: I think, honestly, I have a pretty good relationship with

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Speaker 2: social media on my phone. Obviously, it is a big

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Speaker 2: part of my life, as it is a lot of

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Speaker 2: other young people. But I think the main use that

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Speaker 2: I use it for is connecting with my friends and family,

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Speaker 2: and I think that it allows me to have that

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Speaker 2: connection even if I'm not physically there with them.

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Speaker 3: So, Gabby, do you think you have a healthy relationship

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Speaker 3: with social media. I think it's fairly healthy. I do

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Speaker 3: use my phone quite a bit, but I do set

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Speaker 3: limits on there as well, because I know I need

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Speaker 3: to try to regulate myself. I mean, every now and

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Speaker 3: then I do find myself in that dreaded doom scroll

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Speaker 3: and just scrolling and only just that. But I think

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Speaker 3: it's mostly healthy. Yeah, I'm mostly just talking to friends

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Speaker 3: having a good time.

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Speaker 1: Now when I listen to those two wonderful girls, what

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Speaker 1: I hear stories of self regulation. I hear examples of

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Speaker 1: self awareness and a willingness to pause, think about the

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Speaker 1: way that these tools and technologies are being used, and

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Speaker 1: then be intentional moving forward. They're really good examples of

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Speaker 1: why this ban or why this change might be problematic.

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Speaker 1: And I want to, like, I'm really upfront about it.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that this is necessary for everybody, in

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Speaker 1: the same way that I don't think that gambling laws

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Speaker 1: are necessary for everybody, or alcohol laws are necessary for everybody.

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Speaker 1: Why because there's plenty of people that honestly they love

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Speaker 1: to gamble. I mean, I think gambling. It's not for me.

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Speaker 1: I've never even put a dollar into the Poky's or

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Speaker 1: had a punt on the Melbourne Cup. I'm not a gambler.

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Speaker 1: I've got other things that I would rather do with

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Speaker 1: my cash. But I know several people who gamble. They

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Speaker 1: love it, and they don't have a problem with it.

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Speaker 1: There's no there's no hiding, there's no huge financial loss.

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Speaker 1: They really they set aside some money and they go

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Speaker 1: to the casino or they go to the races, and

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Speaker 1: they have fun and it makes it more fun for them.

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Speaker 1: I get that. I don't endorse it. I don't encourage it,

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Speaker 1: but I get it. And it's the same with alcohol.

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Speaker 1: In spite of that, though, we still have laws around that.

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Speaker 1: Why because we know that harm is done to too

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Speaker 1: great a percentage of the population if we don't have laws.

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Speaker 1: And obstacle to the laws is that many people can

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Speaker 1: do it safely and it's unfair for them. I get

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Speaker 1: that when it's well used, it makes sense, but we've

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Speaker 1: got to draw a line in the sand. And when

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Speaker 1: we draw that line in the sand, it gives parents

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Speaker 1: the power to say to their kids, I know you

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Speaker 1: want this, I know it matters to you. Be guess

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Speaker 1: what the government said, No, it's actually against the law.

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Speaker 1: Another obstacle is that big tech are probably going to

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Speaker 1: mount legal challenges to it. The technology is everywhere, it's pervasive,

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Speaker 1: so it's going to be really hard to get people off.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be one of those things that's a

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Speaker 1: really big challenge, and parents are going to have to

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Speaker 1: be responsible. I mean, enforceability on this is going to

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Speaker 1: be very, very tricky. I believe that what's really going

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Speaker 1: to be necessary is that technology will need to be

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Speaker 1: developed once the legislation is passed where there's some sort

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Speaker 1: of neutral third party, so that we're not giving our

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Speaker 1: personal details to the tech platforms. But there's a government

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Speaker 1: built technolog third party platform that communicates with the tech platforms.

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Speaker 1: So we prove our identity through the government platform, and

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Speaker 1: then the government sends through the little blue tick or

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Speaker 1: the little green tick to the tech platform that says

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Speaker 1: this person is who they say they are and they

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Speaker 1: are of age to me. That's what I think the

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Speaker 1: tech will needs to be. That's going to take years

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Speaker 1: to develop, which means that we still have to deal

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Speaker 1: with this stuff at home in our living rooms with

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Speaker 1: our kids until this gets sorted out. The thing is

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Speaker 1: this matters. I mean, this really matters for the well

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Speaker 1: being of our children and young people. This matters. Social

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Speaker 1: media is the new smoking, and just like it took

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Speaker 1: decades for all the data to be collected so that

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Speaker 1: we could really look at this and say smoking is

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Speaker 1: killing people, this is bad for you. It's going to

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Speaker 1: take a while yet before we have all the data

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Speaker 1: that we need to move in this direction. But I

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Speaker 1: throw a big haymaker on a current affair. This is

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Speaker 1: what I had to say about what the tech company

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Speaker 1: is responsible for. I can't help but think that Zuckerberg

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Speaker 1: and the CEOs, the items of social media industry are

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Speaker 1: responsible for more human suffering among our young people today

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Speaker 1: than pretty much at any point in human history. I

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Speaker 1: just don't think that there's been any kind of technology

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Speaker 1: that's created this level of suffering in our youth. It's

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Speaker 1: absolutely abysmal. And if I can say this a little

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Speaker 1: bit directly, our feckless politicians who have allowed this to

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Speaker 1: happen at a global level have got a lot of it,

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Speaker 1: a lot to answer for, as well the lack of

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Speaker 1: legislation around this. We're just going to introduce this thing

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Speaker 1: and will find proof of harm later. I think that

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Speaker 1: we need to be able to prove that there's a

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Speaker 1: good here before we let people just go for it.

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Speaker 1: And these stories, especially Kim's story, highlight what so many

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Speaker 1: parents are telling me, and that is that social media

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Speaker 1: as a general issue is absolutely at the heart of

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Speaker 1: so much sleep deprivation, so much conflict, so much school avoidance,

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Speaker 1: so much bullying, so much mental health challenge, and the

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Speaker 1: list goes on and on and on. Jonathan Hate says

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Speaker 1: this best when he describes in his book The Anxious Generation,

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Speaker 1: that we've moved from a play based childhood to a

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Speaker 1: screen based childhood, and obviously I emphasize that on a

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Speaker 1: current affair as well. Beyond this, though, there are a

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Speaker 1: couple of other things that we need to consider, and

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Speaker 1: I really hope the government are going to do this.

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Speaker 1: They've indicated that they want to hold tech companies accountable

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Speaker 1: for the full spectrum of harm that happens on social

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Speaker 1: media platforms because they facilitate and allow scams and fake

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Speaker 1: news and body shaming and other harmful practices that I

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Speaker 1: won't go into in this podcast. I want to keep

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Speaker 1: it reasonably light. I know it's a very policy discussion today.

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Speaker 1: It's a bit wonky from a policy perspective, but the

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Speaker 1: government is doing the right thing here. I don't really

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Speaker 1: like government interference. I really think that people should be

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Speaker 1: left to make up their own mind about most things

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Speaker 1: and make their own decisions as much as possible. But

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Speaker 1: I also recognize that there is a need for government

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Speaker 1: intervention and if companies cannot adhere to appropriate practices that

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Speaker 1: consider the well being of our population, we need to

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Speaker 1: make sure that there are rules for those who are

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Speaker 1: going to conduct business in Australia. They're going to take

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Speaker 1: responsibility for the social and the commercial damage that they cause,

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Speaker 1: the emotional and the psychological damage that they cause. I

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Speaker 1: just think this matters so much. So what do we

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Speaker 1: do right now? Is there anything else that I need

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Speaker 1: to bring up and talk about? Just two things beyond

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Speaker 1: those age limits, which is what I've just talked about.

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Speaker 1: What I would encourage you to do as a parent

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Speaker 1: is to jump online and send an email, like literally

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Speaker 1: a three line email to your government representative and just

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Speaker 1: say I heard this on a podcast, I read it

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Speaker 1: in the news. I just want to say I'm right

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Speaker 1: behind this. I want to see this happen for the

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Speaker 1: safety of my kids and for the safety of our

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Speaker 1: society's kids. If you just send them that email, it

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Speaker 1: will take you about two minutes to do it. Just

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Speaker 1: that will make a difference. Why because it raises their

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Speaker 1: awareness of what their constituency wants. In addition, though, because

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Speaker 1: this will take a while, it's got to be legislated,

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Speaker 1: The legislation's got to be built, it's got to be

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Speaker 1: put together. Well, there's going to be challenges to it.

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Speaker 1: Once it finally gets through, technology is going to have

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Speaker 1: to be developed. This will not be a quick thing.

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Speaker 1: This is going to take a few years a few

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Speaker 1: years to get off the ground. In the meantime, we've

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Speaker 1: got to protect our kids, which means that while we

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Speaker 1: need government to do the heavy lifting around the legislative challenges,

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Speaker 1: we've actually got to put into place in our homes

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Speaker 1: that tells me that if you've got a seven year

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Speaker 1: old that wants to be on TikTok, you need to

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Speaker 1: say no. Or if you've got a twelve year old,

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Speaker 1: say no. I've got a website where I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to sell you anything. It's literally just a website that

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Speaker 1: says we need to unplug childhood. The website's called Unplugged

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Speaker 1: Childhood dot org. I'll link to it in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: Unplug childhood dot org a couple of really simple principles

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Speaker 1: that are there. Number One, we want to remember that

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Speaker 1: kids don't need smart phones. They need smart parents, and

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Speaker 1: smart parents give their kids dumb phones. Your children don't

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Speaker 1: need to be on social media. They don't need to

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Speaker 1: have all of the functionality and accessibility of a supercomputer

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Speaker 1: in their pocket. They just need a dumb phone. If

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Speaker 1: you're concerned for their safety or you want them to

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Speaker 1: be able to contact you if something's going on, and

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Speaker 1: they're not going to be in your presence. Number two,

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Speaker 1: keep kids off social media for as long as you can.

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Speaker 1: I would recommend that you just practice the delayed principle.

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Speaker 1: Talk to them about the things that I've talked about

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Speaker 1: on the podcast today, and let them know you want

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Speaker 1: them to wait until they're at least thirteen, but you'd

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Speaker 1: prefer it to be fourteen or fifteen or sixteen. And

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Speaker 1: you might even come up with some incentives in some

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Speaker 1: ways that you can help them to do that and

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Speaker 1: still feel like they're not missing out, because that fear

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Speaker 1: of missing out is massive, which brings me to the

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Speaker 1: third and final point. The easiest way to do that

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Speaker 1: is to build a great community with the other parents

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Speaker 1: that are involved, the parents who are the parents of

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Speaker 1: kids your children are friends with. Gee I said that

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Speaker 1: in a challenging way. Let me try that again. Your kids' friends.

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Speaker 1: Talk to their parents, create some community, get to know them,

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Speaker 1: send them texts, arrange for the kids to get together,

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Speaker 1: send them down to the park, make sure that everybody

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Speaker 1: knows where they are, give them some freedom. Let them

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Speaker 1: go back to a play based childhood for as long

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Speaker 1: as possible. That's what I was trying to say. More

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Speaker 1: information is available at unplugged childhood dot org. Look, this

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Speaker 1: is a good news story. It's going to take a while.

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Speaker 1: I don't think anything's going to happen in a hurry,

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Speaker 1: but we've got a government who is finally saying we

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Speaker 1: will stand up to technology companies. We will legislate, we're

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Speaker 1: going to stop being feckless. We're going to stop coutelling

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Speaker 1: to the big tech and start doing something to protect

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Speaker 1: children and young people. There will be people who are

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Speaker 1: opposed to it, and they'll make good arguments, many of

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Speaker 1: which I'm sympathetic to. But ultimately I think that the

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Speaker 1: greater good, the common good of our children, needs to

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Speaker 1: come first. And that's where we're up to right now

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Speaker 1: in terms of this news. The Happy Families podcast is

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Speaker 1: produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media. If you would

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Speaker 1: like more information to help you to navigate these waters,

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Speaker 1: on the twenty ninth of October. I know it's a

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Speaker 1: little way away yet, it's just over a month away,

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Speaker 1: But on the twenty ninth of October, we're running a

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Speaker 1: webinar called Unplay Childhood that's from six till seven pm.

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Speaker 1: It's part of what we're calling the Screen Smart series

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Speaker 1: six till seven and then from seven to eight we're

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Speaker 1: doing tweens, teens and screens. Okay, so two webinars on

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Speaker 1: the one night, one from six to seven, the other

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Speaker 1: from seven to eight on the twenty ninth. All the

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Speaker 1: details are at happy families dot com dot au. You

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Speaker 1: can get your tickets there if you're a school teacher

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Speaker 1: and you would like your entire school involved, it's part

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Speaker 1: of our Answers with Justin series, and your whole school

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Speaker 1: can sign up and everyone gets a link in the

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Speaker 1: entire school community and you can get everyone on board

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Speaker 1: with unplugging childhood. We'll link to that in the show

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Speaker 1: notes as well. Hope that's helpful, Have a great day,

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to a Happy Families podcast, and I'll

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Speaker 1: chat with you again tomorrow