1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: Bungelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 2: Hello, how's your summer going. Are you on a road trip, 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 2: are you recovering from a big party in the sun, 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 2: or are you just taking a quiet walk, whatever the 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 2: case is. You are listening to a special summer series 11 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 2: of the TDA Podcast. Now, the whole idea here is 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: that every day we're going to throw back to a 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 2: different episode from last year, and we've sat down and 14 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: chosen some of the most listens to stories of twenty 15 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 2: twenty two. But we've also thrown in some of the 16 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: stories that may have gotten left behind in the news 17 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: cycle and we think they warn't a bit of an update. 18 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: In March, I had the opportunity to speak to someone 19 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 2: really quite special. Her name is Manal al Sharif. She's 20 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 2: one of the women's rights activists who helped to start 21 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 2: the right to Drive campaign in twenty eleven. She saw 22 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 2: the injustice of women not being able to drive in 23 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia and got behind the wheel in protest. That 24 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: is incredibly brave. When thousands of other women joined her, 25 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 2: a movement was born, and today women can drive in 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia. Manal, I'd love to start right at the 27 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 2: very beginning of your story. What was it about driving 28 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: in Saudi Arabia that made you so compelled to use 29 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: that as your pillar for changing Saudi Arabian society. 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: Well, that's a big question. It was a personal necessity, 31 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 3: which is so funny. It wasn't that big issue. I 32 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 3: needed to my car as a divorced mother of one 33 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 3: boy that I couldn't take him to his hospital or school, 34 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 3: and I needed constant need of a driver, and living 35 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 3: in the States, I got my driver's license, so I 36 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 3: knew how to drive, and I had a car that 37 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 3: I couldn't drive. So it's pure necessity, a personal necessity. 38 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 3: And by the way, I hate driving. I never liked driving. 39 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 3: I was scared when I was driving the first time. 40 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 3: But I think what happened is when I posted the 41 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 3: video of me driving when I knew there was no 42 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 3: law in Saudi Arabia. The preventters and we were just 43 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: the ut. Up spring was huge. So we found, oh 44 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 3: my god, we can use social media to make this 45 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 3: issue heard. And I wanted other women to join me 46 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 3: and drive their cars if they have driver's license. So 47 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 3: I posted a video of me driving on YouTube. I 48 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 3: had no clue would be number one trending video in 49 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: all of Saudi Arabia that day. And I had no 50 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 3: clue I would be sent to jail for that video 51 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 3: and for wild female. And I think that what made 52 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 3: medialize how big of an issue because of the action 53 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 3: of the government and the society. It's the most public 54 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 3: display of empowerment for women is to have to just 55 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 3: sit behind the driving in a car. That's something you 56 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 3: didn't see in public inside Arabia. Women are supposed to 57 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 3: be invisible, and so driving was really for us the 58 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 3: key for change the whole society in sider Abea. And 59 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 3: you can see that today. 60 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: And how quickly was it until you had support from 61 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,559 Speaker 2: other Saudi women. 62 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 3: Instantly, That's the funny thing. When we posted the event 63 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: in Facebook, we had one hundred and twenty thousand people 64 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 3: joining that event in a week. It was just unheard of. 65 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 3: And then when we moved to Twitter. I remember the 66 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 3: first night in Twitter, we got ten thousand followers in Twitter. 67 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 3: It was huge and everyone was talking about it until 68 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 3: I was sent to jail. In one way, it held 69 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 3: us when I was sent to jail, because it even 70 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 3: gave it international publicity. I'm pretty sure even in Australia 71 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 3: you heard about the woman who was sent to jail 72 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 3: for driving, So that was actually the push that gave them. 73 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 3: Because Sido Abia there are a very conservative country. Change 74 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 3: happens slowly. They don't want anyone to shake the grounds. 75 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 3: And the out of spring was happening, all eyes were 76 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 3: on us, so it was really the right moment to 77 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 3: attract all that international media attention and support. So a 78 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 3: lot of women in the country supported the movement and 79 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 3: a lot of women outside the country, and I think 80 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 3: it it made big difference that we received international support 81 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 3: from women around the world, and. 82 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: So were now over ten years past that moment. What 83 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: is the situation with driving for women in Saudi Arabia today? 84 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 3: I published my book Dating to Drive in June twenty seventeen. 85 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 3: Three months later, the royal decree comes and announce lifting 86 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 3: the band. I didn't say women were allowed to drive. 87 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 3: I'd say women won the right to drive because we 88 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 3: had to fight for that. The situation was in I 89 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 3: was happy, but at the same time, all the women, 90 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 3: and I mean every single woman who was part of 91 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 3: the woman to Drive movement was targeted, was either imprisoned 92 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 3: or prevented from leaving the country. Her family was targeted too, 93 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,679 Speaker 3: So it was very conflicting emotions. Like, in one hand, 94 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 3: we see these beautiful reforms when it comes to women 95 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 3: empowerment in my country and equality, and in the second hand, 96 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 3: women who fought badly and stelf fighting for that been targeted. 97 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 3: So it came hand in hand and it's conflicting emotions. 98 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 3: I'm very happy to see my country women and men 99 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 3: celebrating a lot of progress when it comes to women's rights, 100 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 3: and women's rights really contribute to the whole society. They 101 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 3: had to pass the first anti harassment law inside Arabia 102 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 3: before women are out in the street. That's a lot 103 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 3: that we fought decays for that. Women want to feel 104 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 3: safe in the street and men who harass them they 105 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 3: get no punishment. So for us, there was like it 106 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 3: was like more of a domino effect. Women can now 107 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 3: get jobs, can drive herself. They're talking more about going 108 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 3: to school actually to get your driver's license, So men 109 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 3: and women have to go to school. Said Arabia had 110 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 3: the most dangerous roads in the world. Number one fatality 111 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 3: rate comes because of accidents because women can drive. And 112 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 3: I believe me, I this is a statement I make 113 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 3: with full confidence. Because women didn't drive, We had kids 114 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,799 Speaker 3: driving drivers who didn't come from overseas, don't speak the language, 115 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 3: don't understand the rules. Now it's very strict. You have 116 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 3: to go to school to get your driver license. You 117 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 3: can't just drive, which is unbelievable. So you have safer 118 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,600 Speaker 3: roads for us, for our society, for our kids, and 119 00:06:58,640 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 3: for women too. 120 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: Like it was a pretty profound impact. You're now based 121 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 2: in Australia. Do you see yourself going back to Saudi 122 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: Arabia to continue to push further reforms and get involved 123 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: in the political system? Would you go that far? 124 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: On a self imposed exile in Australia for four years 125 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 3: now called Sydney, where I lived my little piece of heaven. 126 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 3: It's the most beautiful place and I'm happy here. I 127 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 3: don't think it can go back. With the current political 128 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 3: regime in Saide Arabia, they don't have anything promising. I 129 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 3: haven't been to my country for the last four years 130 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 3: and I'm spreading from my kid. I don't see political, 131 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 3: civil rights and human rights reforms happening. It's all distractions, 132 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 3: like they held this largest music festival. Used to be 133 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 3: a crime to listen to music, a crime like you 134 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 3: can be arrested if you listen to music in your 135 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 3: car by the religious police. Now they're doing all these things. 136 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 3: But for me, it's more of a distraction from the 137 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 3: main issue, that is, you can't run a country as 138 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 3: an absolute monarchy, the last standing absolute monarchies in the world. 139 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 3: You really need constitutional monarchy, and I think then I 140 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 3: might go back. 141 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,119 Speaker 2: One more question for you on the state of play 142 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: in the Middle East currently. What role do you think 143 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: the international community has to play to ensure women's rights 144 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: are upheld, particularly in a place like Afghanistan, which has 145 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: had a tumultuous twelve months. Of course, what's the role 146 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: of countries like Australia and the United States. 147 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 3: It's very complicated, Sam, This question can be answered. There 148 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 3: are a lot of historical backgrounds here that I do 149 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 3: want to get through. When we look at the West, 150 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 3: a lot of things happen with it in Arabia, Saudi Arabia, 151 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 3: the Arabian Peninsula, out of Spring, Afghanistan and Iraq. We 152 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 3: don't look with faverism to all those interference. Unfortunately, it's 153 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 3: a story that told from both sides. What's happening in 154 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 3: Yemen too, with the assistance of the West, the m 155 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: and war. So it's a very complicated question to say 156 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 3: what the word role these governments can play. I've talked 157 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 3: to the people. I'd say the people of these countries 158 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 3: need to hold their countries accountable for their interference or 159 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 3: their support to non democratic regimes, because democracy shouldn't be 160 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 3: just stops at your border. You don't check your values 161 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 3: at the door. I think that's the role that the 162 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 3: people need to be politically active. People need to ask 163 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 3: and question their governments, and I think that's the only 164 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 3: way that you can help yourself first and then the 165 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 3: world around you. 166 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: Big answer, Manal, I'll share it. Thank you so much 167 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: for joining us on the daily US have a great weekend. 168 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 3: Thank you. 169 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode of our special TDA 170 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: Summer series We'll be back to normal programming on the 171 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: sixteenth of January, but if you want some more breaking 172 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 2: news in the meantime, open your phone and find us 173 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 2: on Instagram. It's currently where over four hundred and ten 174 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 2: thousand Australians get their news, and we are on even 175 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: though you're on a holiday.