1
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,080
Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

2
00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,080
Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calcuttin woman from Gadighal Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

3
00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,319
Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

4
00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,920
Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

5
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,840
Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

6
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,640
Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

7
00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,240
Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily Oz. It's Monday

8
00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:35,240
Speaker 2: to fifteenth of January. I'm Sam, I'm Billy. South Africa

9
00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,760
Speaker 2: has accused Israel of committing genocide in its war in

10
00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,720
Speaker 2: Gaza in a case brought to the International Court of

11
00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,280
Speaker 2: Justice otherwise known as the ICJ. The Israeli government quote

12
00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:51,160
Speaker 2: categorically rejects the claims. Both sides have presented evidence before

13
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,720
Speaker 2: the court in the last few days. We're going to

14
00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,440
Speaker 2: bring you up to date with this case in today's

15
00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,520
Speaker 2: Deep Dive. But first here's today's headlines.

16
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,600
Speaker 3: Of Mainian born Mary Donaldson is now the Queen of Denmark.

17
00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,480
Speaker 3: It comes two weeks after eighty three year old Queen

18
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,520
Speaker 3: Margaret the Second announced she would abdicate, meaning give up

19
00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,440
Speaker 3: the role of monarch. Citing her age and health concerns.

20
00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,960
Speaker 3: Next in line to the throne was Prince Frederick, Mary's husband,

21
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,679
Speaker 3: who is now King of Denmark.

22
00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,679
Speaker 2: Researchers are calling for Australia to name its heat waves

23
00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,920
Speaker 2: like it named cyclones, to increase public awareness of the

24
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:31,200
Speaker 2: dangers of extreme heat. Nonprofit organization Energy Consumers Australia said

25
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,840
Speaker 2: Spain has been naming and ranking heat waves since twenty

26
00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,560
Speaker 2: twenty two, and I recommended a similar framework to be

27
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,880
Speaker 2: adopted in Australia for heat wave alerts and communications.

28
00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,360
Speaker 3: Microsoft briefly overtook Apple to become the world's most valuable

29
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,279
Speaker 3: company last week. Applestock has trended downwards due to slower

30
00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,920
Speaker 3: demands for the iPhone, particularly in China. At the same time,

31
00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,680
Speaker 3: Microsoft's investments in AI have boosted the company's value. It

32
00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,880
Speaker 3: marked the first time Apple has fallen below number one

33
00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,560
Speaker 3: since twenty twenty one, although it did return to the

34
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,360
Speaker 3: top spot as the most valuable company after less than

35
00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:05,920
Speaker 3: a day.

36
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,320
Speaker 2: And today's good news. Ruins of an ancient civilization, estimated

37
00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,840
Speaker 2: to be at least two and a half thousand years old,

38
00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:18,040
Speaker 2: have been discovered in the Amazon rainforest. Researchers used laser

39
00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,400
Speaker 2: mapping technology to reveal previously unknown evidence of past Amazonian

40
00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,240
Speaker 2: cultures in an Ecuadorian valley. It's estimated at least ten

41
00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,639
Speaker 2: thousand people lived in the community, which included complex road

42
00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,320
Speaker 2: networks and structures.

43
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,840
Speaker 3: South Africa has accused Israel of committing genocide and failing

44
00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,960
Speaker 3: to prevent genocide in its war in Gaza in a

45
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,040
Speaker 3: case brought to the International Court of Justice. Now we'll

46
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,760
Speaker 3: explain exactly what that court is soon, but the Israeli

47
00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,920
Speaker 3: government said the case quote lacks both a factual and

48
00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,200
Speaker 3: legal basis, and has called on the ICJ to reject

49
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,160
Speaker 3: the case. Now, there's a lot to unpack here, Sam,

50
00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,280
Speaker 3: but can we just start with some brief contexts of

51
00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,200
Speaker 3: what is happening in Israel and Gaza.

52
00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, So, as I've said on this podcast before,

53
00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,640
Speaker 2: I'm not going to be able to give you the

54
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,680
Speaker 2: context that this crisis deserves in a really short amount

55
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,440
Speaker 2: of time. I'm going to put a link in today's

56
00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,919
Speaker 2: show notes that the last time we talked about this

57
00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:17,800
Speaker 2: Israel Gaza war on the podcast, because there's a bit

58
00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,760
Speaker 2: more context in that episode. But briefly, what you need

59
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,200
Speaker 2: to know is on the seventh of October, Hamas launched

60
00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,239
Speaker 2: an attack on Israel. According to data sided by the

61
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 2: United Nations, roughly two hundred people were killed on that day,

62
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,040
Speaker 2: October seven. Now, about two hundred and forty hostages were

63
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,480
Speaker 2: captured by Hamas, which controls Gaza, and about one hundred

64
00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,480
Speaker 2: and thirty six hostages remain captive. Hamas has continued to

65
00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,720
Speaker 2: fire rockets towards Israel. Now Israel responded by declaring war

66
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,480
Speaker 2: and bombarding Gaza, and according to data quoted by the UN,

67
00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,320
Speaker 2: nearly twenty four thousand Palestinians have been killed since the

68
00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,240
Speaker 2: seventh of October. Now Israel's war a couple of months

69
00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,280
Speaker 2: old in Gaza has caused a humanitarian crime. It said

70
00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,440
Speaker 2: it will not stop fighting until all hostages are returned

71
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,080
Speaker 2: and Humas is destroyed.

72
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,400
Speaker 3: Right, And so it's against that context that the story

73
00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,120
Speaker 3: about the case brought to the International Court of Justice

74
00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,200
Speaker 3: is unfolding. But first, you don't really hear about the

75
00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,320
Speaker 3: International Court of Justice that much, So can you just

76
00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,600
Speaker 3: explain what actually is it?

77
00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really interesting body. It kind of sits

78
00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,520
Speaker 2: in its own category of international law, alongside the International

79
00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,520
Speaker 2: Criminal Court, the International Court of Justice, and we call it.

80
00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,240
Speaker 2: The ICJ is basically the World Court. It's actually called

81
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,200
Speaker 2: the World Court sometimes, and it's the United Nations highest

82
00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,880
Speaker 2: judicial body, and its role is to settle legal disputes

83
00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,400
Speaker 2: between states, and that mostly means, in most of the cases,

84
00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,360
Speaker 2: settling disputes between countries. Now. These disputes can range from

85
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 2: anything from who owns particular parts of land or sea borders,

86
00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:54,920
Speaker 2: all the way through to the type of thing we're

87
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,159
Speaker 2: seeing now, which is trying to reach a resolution in

88
00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,039
Speaker 2: a conflict. And the International Court of Justice US rulings

89
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,479
Speaker 2: are typically legally binding, but the tricky part here is

90
00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,800
Speaker 2: always how those orders are enforced, because I guess the

91
00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,640
Speaker 2: thing to remember here is that there's no global governing

92
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,200
Speaker 2: body or any sort of body to actually enforce a

93
00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,520
Speaker 2: global set of laws. It's really not easy. In fact,

94
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,680
Speaker 2: many legal experts say it's nearly impossible to force countries

95
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,480
Speaker 2: to abide by the findings of this court. And one

96
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,640
Speaker 2: example that's really helpful to think about is that the

97
00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,920
Speaker 2: Court handed down orders to Russia in the last year

98
00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,320
Speaker 2: or so. Now Russia has no obligation to actually follow

99
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,560
Speaker 2: those orders, and that gives you a sense of how

100
00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,680
Speaker 2: hard it is to actually impose the court's rulings.

101
00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,240
Speaker 3: And so now let's talk about this case. So South

102
00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,880
Speaker 3: Africa has brought this claim of genocide against Israel in

103
00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:46,560
Speaker 3: the ICJ.

104
00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, so any country can bring a claim against any

105
00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,480
Speaker 2: other country in the ICJ, And in this case, South

106
00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,760
Speaker 2: Africa has indeed accused Israel of committing genocide against Palestinians

107
00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,479
Speaker 2: in Gaza. Now, South Africa and Israel, we are both

108
00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,160
Speaker 2: signatories to a convention called the Convention on the Prevention

109
00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,160
Speaker 2: and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. And it's in

110
00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,880
Speaker 2: that document that genocides defined as quote, acts committed with

111
00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,799
Speaker 2: intent to destroy, in whole or in part a national, ethnical, racial,

112
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,080
Speaker 2: or religious group. Now, the word genocide was first coined

113
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,159
Speaker 2: by Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin to describe the killing of

114
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,760
Speaker 2: six million Jewish people and others by the Nazi Party

115
00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,159
Speaker 2: during the Holocaust. In fact, the ICJ was established in

116
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,640
Speaker 2: nineteen forty eight, directly after World War II to prevent

117
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:33,960
Speaker 2: something similar from happening.

118
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,200
Speaker 3: Ever, again, so can you give us some more details

119
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,880
Speaker 3: about what South Africa's argument in this case is.

120
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,520
Speaker 2: So we heard the opening arguments from both South Africa

121
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,160
Speaker 2: and Israel in the last couple of days, and South

122
00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,880
Speaker 2: Africa is arguing that Israel's violating international law by committing

123
00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,120
Speaker 2: genocide and failing to prevent genocide. And they're kind of

124
00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:56,440
Speaker 2: taking each of those two allegations in turn individually. Its

125
00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 2: argument basically is that Israel is and i quote killingians

126
00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,080
Speaker 2: in Gaza, causing them serious bodily and mental harm and

127
00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,400
Speaker 2: inflicting on them conditions of life calculated to bring about

128
00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:12,080
Speaker 2: their physical destruction. South Africa's asked the ICJ to order

129
00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:16,240
Speaker 2: Israel to quote immediately suspend its military operations in and

130
00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,880
Speaker 2: against Gaza. Now, lawyers who have been representing South Africa

131
00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,920
Speaker 2: have also said they believe quote Israel's failure to provide

132
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,800
Speaker 2: or ensure essential food, order, medicine, fuel, shelter, and other

133
00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,000
Speaker 2: humanitarian assistants has pushed Palestinian people in Gaza to the

134
00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,600
Speaker 2: brink of famine. It's said that whilst quote some AID

135
00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,120
Speaker 2: trucks have been permitted in this remains wholly insufficient.

136
00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,400
Speaker 3: And South Africa presented its case at the back end

137
00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,840
Speaker 3: of last week, and then over the weekend we heard

138
00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,040
Speaker 3: from Israel's lawyers. What was Israel's defense.

139
00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,720
Speaker 2: It's this really interesting format for a case where both

140
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,800
Speaker 2: of the sides get to present these really broad opening

141
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,960
Speaker 2: statements that gives a sense of all of the ways

142
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,640
Speaker 2: they're going to argue or defend themselves, even though this

143
00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 2: trial could go on for a very long time. And

144
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,000
Speaker 2: so basically, what the Israeli government said when Israel's lawyers

145
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,960
Speaker 2: presented their case in the court is that it categorically

146
00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,560
Speaker 2: rejects the allegations of genocide. It said, it quote is

147
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,720
Speaker 2: committed to international law and acts in accordance with it. Now,

148
00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,960
Speaker 2: lawyers have argued that Israel's acting in self defense against Hamas.

149
00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,880
Speaker 2: They played clips of Hummas's attack on October seven, and

150
00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,200
Speaker 2: they said, quote, if there were acts of genocide, they

151
00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,760
Speaker 2: have been perpetrated against Israel. Now, according to Israel, South

152
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,520
Speaker 2: Africa seeks to thwart Israel's inherent right to defend itself.

153
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,600
Speaker 2: They said, quote to let Hamas not just get away

154
00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,439
Speaker 2: with its murder literally, but they also want to render

155
00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,600
Speaker 2: Israel defenseless. They also said that in bringing the case quote,

156
00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,520
Speaker 2: South Africa did not consider the sheer extent to which

157
00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:51,760
Speaker 2: Hummas uses ostensibly civilian structures for military purposes. And I'm

158
00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,720
Speaker 2: using a lot of quotes when describing both the arguments here,

159
00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,280
Speaker 2: because I really want these lawyers and the cases to

160
00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,320
Speaker 2: speak for themselves. So excuse paraphrasing, but that gives you

161
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,000
Speaker 2: a sense of what both sides are.

162
00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,040
Speaker 3: Arguing, and the judges at the ICJ have now had

163
00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 3: the opportunity to hear from both sides of this claim.

164
00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,239
Speaker 3: How does a case like this actually get decided?

165
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,079
Speaker 2: So we're used to seeing one judge in front of

166
00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,000
Speaker 2: a court, maybe a panel of three in the supreme

167
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,480
Speaker 2: court like the High Court of Australia or the Supreme

168
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,040
Speaker 2: Court of America. We have seven, but this is a

169
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,480
Speaker 2: panel of seventeen judges to decide the case. And there's

170
00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,959
Speaker 2: an interesting quirk here as well. There's one judge from

171
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,320
Speaker 2: either side of the case included in that seventeen, so

172
00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 2: there's a core group of fifteen judges. And then South

173
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,320
Speaker 2: Africa has nominated one judge, he's a former deputy Chief

174
00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,280
Speaker 2: Justice of its Constitutional Court. And Israel's nominated one judge

175
00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,960
Speaker 2: and he's a former president of Israel's Supreme Court. Now,

176
00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,720
Speaker 2: the thing to note here in terms of when we

177
00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,320
Speaker 2: get a decision is that a case could very well

178
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,120
Speaker 2: take years for the ICJ to deliver a final decision.

179
00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 2: If we look back at previous times the ICJ has

180
00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,800
Speaker 2: heard genocide cases, the ICJ is only handed down one

181
00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,720
Speaker 2: final judgment in the genocide case, and Hour's back in

182
00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,319
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, and that took them more than

183
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,800
Speaker 2: a decade after the genocide allegations in Bosnia were first raised.

184
00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,719
Speaker 3: So is that it then we won't hear anything from

185
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:18,480
Speaker 3: the ICJ for possibly years.

186
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,160
Speaker 2: Well, we're definitely not going to hear I mean a

187
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,160
Speaker 2: final decision from the ICJ for potentially years. But in

188
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,320
Speaker 2: the meantime, South Africa has requested for the ICJ to

189
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,840
Speaker 2: issue what's called provisional measures, which can be ordered if

190
00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,480
Speaker 2: the court decides the subject of the application. In this case,

191
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,520
Speaker 2: the Palestinian people in Gaza are in immediate danger. Now

192
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,400
Speaker 2: for provisional measures to be ordered, South Africa needs to

193
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,120
Speaker 2: convince the court that its allegations are quote plausible, And

194
00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:47,720
Speaker 2: this is going to happen quite quickly, and we could

195
00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,280
Speaker 2: see provisional orders as soon as this week.

196
00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,000
Speaker 3: And just before we go. What do we know about

197
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,679
Speaker 3: the Australian government's position on the case.

198
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,560
Speaker 2: We don't know too much. So the Albanezi government has

199
00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,760
Speaker 2: not revealed its stance on the case. When TDA reached

200
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,040
Speaker 2: out and asked for a comment, the Department of Foreign

201
00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,040
Speaker 2: Affairs and Trades said it's quote not appropriate to comment

202
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,360
Speaker 2: on matters before the court, and that's an answer consistent

203
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:12,360
Speaker 2: with if a case was in front of a domestic

204
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,719
Speaker 2: court here in Australia. Now, on the other side of politics,

205
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,920
Speaker 2: Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister Simon Birmingham so he's from the

206
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,800
Speaker 2: Liberal Party, he said the government should quote rule out

207
00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,440
Speaker 2: supporting South Africa's unbalanced application against Israel to the ICJ.

208
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,320
Speaker 2: Green's MP Max Shandler Mater has said quote Labour must

209
00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,920
Speaker 2: support South Africa's case, and Senate cross bencher Independent Senator

210
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,880
Speaker 2: David Pocock has urged the government to confirm it will

211
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,080
Speaker 2: quote comply with any ICJ ruling and support its enforcement.

212
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,760
Speaker 3: As you said, it could be years before we learn

213
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,440
Speaker 3: the outcome of this case, but we will keep you

214
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,680
Speaker 3: updated with any updates in the meantime. Thank you for

215
00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,160
Speaker 3: taking us through it, Sam, and thank you so much

216
00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,160
Speaker 3: for listening to this episode of The Daily Odds. Now.

217
00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,040
Speaker 3: We have had a lot of new listeners in the

218
00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,800
Speaker 3: past week from Spotify's Daily If that's you, make sure

219
00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,800
Speaker 3: you follow us so you don't miss an episode. Have

220
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 3: a great day, and we'll be back tomorrow.