WEBVTT - Fred & Rose West 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.680 In May nineteen ninety two, Gloucester Police in England received 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:07.960 a tip that a young teenage girl had opened up 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:10.959 about having been sexually abused by her father. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:11.840 Oh god. 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:15.600 The girl had nine siblings, only seven of whom still 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:20.200 lived at home at twenty five Cromwell Street. The two 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:22.640 no longer lived there, had left of their own accord, 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:27.400 or had they. Police had no idea that this one 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:30.600 tip would end up uncovering one of the most horrific 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.200 stories they would ever hear, and we will ever hear, 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:39.080 I hope, of the most heinous crimes, including multiple murders 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:44.839 over twenty years. Twenty years committed by a husband and wife. 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.000 Oh my god, this is the story of the House 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:51.040 of Horrors and Fred and Rosemary West. 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:53.160 Oh my god, I know this story, and I don't 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:55.279 know this story, so I'm very excited to hear you 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:56.040 tell this story. 0:00:56.200 --> 0:01:01.000 Unfortunately, after researching this one deeply, I know it very well. 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:01.960 My god. 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:09.560 This episode. All of our episodes that deal with crime 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.160 obviously come with trigger warnings. I want to give some 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:15.080 really strong trigger warnings up the top of this one. 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:20.320 In particular, it deals with the deaths of children and 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:24.440 physical and sexual abuse of adults and children. Now I 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.480 won't go I don't go into detail about the sexual abuse, 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:35.319 but it does come up unfortunately, so lots of trigger warnings. 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:43.080 All right, are you ready? No? Fred West was born 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.200 in nineteen forty one in rural Herod for shit. 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:48.240 And now Herod for shit. 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:53.400 Yes, I think it's that, Like Leicester is Leicester not life. 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:57.280 I think it's Herod for shit, for ship, Herod for shit, 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:02.240 and I apologize if it's not. In England into a 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:08.239 large and economically struggling family. His parents were named Walter 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:11.000 and Daisy, which sounds like a Disney couple. 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.080 It does, and also like very British as well, Walter, they. 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.560 Were not a Disney couple, that's right. Oh yeah, maybe 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:23.640 that's my brain, is not that? Like, it's pretty easy 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:27.799 to read. Fred was the second of eight children, but 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.840 two of his siblings died during all shortly after childbirth. 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:32.440 Okay. 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:36.280 Fred was born a year after Daisy's first daughter, Violet, 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:40.639 had died. By all accounts, Fred was very much Daisy's favorite, 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.360 even above her husband. Because of this, he did not 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:47.560 have a good relationship with his father, Walter, because you know, 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.120 being jealous of a baby is totally. 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.000 Normal and fine, normal and fine and cool and actually 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:53.480 pretty cool. 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:56.359 The living space where they lived on a farm was 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.560 very cramped. The bathrooms were simply buckets, and and they 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.600 ate a lot of time. All the children ate in 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:06.560 a day was the unpasteurized milk his dad would bring home. 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:07.880 Oh wow, okay. 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:11.440 Despite being very much loved by his mother at home, 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:13.959 it was not a good upbringing and he did not 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.280 have good relationships otherwise. Fred was bullied for being a 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:21.760 mummies boy and was described as dim, which it's not 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.799 a nice way to describe someone, but I enjoy that work. 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:26.960 Dim is dim is a fun way to describe, so. 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:29.360 You can see it's like a light note. 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:31.440 Yeah, yeah, it makes total sense when you say it, 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.600 but everyone knows exactly what you mean, even I've never 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:34.040 heard the word. 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:35.640 You also are allowed to call for a dim because 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.080 he's much worse than that. His brothers, Doug and John 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:43.880 in particular, really hated him, and they all the siblings 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.680 would be physically punished by their father. Fred dropped out 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.440 of school early. He was academically stunted, but he was 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:55.040 dim exactly. But also there were questions raised about whether 0:03:55.160 --> 0:04:00.680 he was also stunted in other areas, particularly socially, emotionally, 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.640 and even sexually. He would later say he was sexually 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:09.280 abused by his mother, but I'm very much noting that 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.480 he was the only one that ever said this. His 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:16.400 brothers have come out and said that they don't believe 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:17.480 it to be true at. 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:19.360 All of Fred's accusations. I don't believe. 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:24.800 Yeah, sure, and they may be, but Fred is not 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:31.640 reliable perhaps a reliable source. And that his dad taught 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:35.880 him about sex by showing him how to do it, 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:37.760 not on him, but I don't need to go now, 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:39.760 but his dad taught him about sex, which is not 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.320 very nice. By his mid teens, Fred had developed a 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:47.839 very strong interest in the female sex and in the 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:51.080 idea of sex. If he saw a girl he wanted, 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:53.360 he would go for it whether he wanted it or not. 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.839 And I don't mean in sexual I'm not insinuating rape. 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.320 But he would just you know, like physically grab it 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.680 girl and try to get them to come with him, 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.000 and like a dances and on the streets he was 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:09.920 grabby and touching and yuck. He had a bad motorbike 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.640 accident in nineteen fifty eight and he was in a 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:17.520 coma hanging sorry, what does that make him? About sixteen seven, 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:20.520 and he was in a coma for a week. They 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:21.440 didn't know if he would. 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.520 Sam for a week. Yeah, oh wow, it must have 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:24.240 been a really bad. 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:27.279 One, very bad. He slowly regained the ability to speak, 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:30.640 but he had a significant head injury, and it's not 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:36.320 known if this caused lasting brain damage, plus a severe 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:42.400 fear and hatred of hospitals full shadowing. During his recovery, 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:43.919 he would still go out and try to live a 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:47.120 normal life. But after the accident, everyone in his life 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.359 noted a big change in his attitude, particularly when it 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.720 came to anger. He became much more aggressive and angered 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:54.400 very quickly. 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:58.800 He didn't seem great before, still exactly he. 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:01.919 Told people he was deeply unhappy living at the farm 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.640 and living under his parents' rule. In the early sixties, 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.160 he started to get in regular trouble with the law, 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:12.560 mostly shoplifting, petty thefts, and fights. The worst of his 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.960 crimes at this time was that he had sexually assaulted 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:20.479 his young teenage sister. He didn't understand why his parents 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:23.760 and the police were so angry. He admitted while being 0:06:23.880 --> 0:06:27.800 questioned to assaulting multiple young women and girls and didn't 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:29.360 realize why everyone had a problem with this. 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.000 Oh my god. I guess if like, you know, not 0:06:32.080 --> 0:06:34.640 excuse him this at all. But I think like if 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.840 his dad has shown him certain things, he's obviously got 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.919 a very warped sense of what's right and what's wrong with. 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.320 Yeah, that's kind of for this background, I suppose from 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:48.760 all the research suggests in absolutely no way, shape or 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.840 form excusing or explaining anything, but it does. There is 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.640 a lot about the multiple head injuries. I haven't gone 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.200 into the others, but there were other things like fights 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:01.120 where he had bad knocks to the head. 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:03.919 When you hear him talk as well, he does like 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:08.120 his voice is kind of it's a strange voice as well. 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:12.000 He's been a very very low IQ And so yeah, 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.520 I mean the way I've put it is stunted in 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:21.040 kind of all aspects of you know, emotion, social interactions, everything. 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:21.400 Sure. 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:27.040 In nineteen sixty two, he met eighteen year old Rena, 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:31.120 who was also described as a difficult child. Again, was 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:34.280 in trouble for petty theft fighting. She'd been moved around 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.560 to different family members to try to bring her back 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:40.400 on track. She was actually from Glasgow but was living 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:42.800 in England, where and when she met Fred. 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.360 Just a side note, that's my favorite accent in the 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:49.920 Glaswegian accent, Glasgow exactly, that's exactly right on. My favorite accent. 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:53.200 The way I can think of a Scottish accent is 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:57.120 this one a little bit, this one sentence that's from 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:00.640 like a little nursery rhyme type thing that my friend Shanaid, 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:05.080 who is Scottish, taught me. I don't know the rest 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:10.320 of the rhyme, but one because Danni where thruz. Oh great, 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:16.880 that's what Marina sounds. And Shrek, come on, do Shrek? 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:18.360 I know you want to come on. 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.080 I don't know what the regular phrase I used to 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.720 say as Shrek was, but it was like Gama swamp, 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:26.200 don't care? 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:27.320 Was that. 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:30.600 Said? 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:35.840 Exactly that? So, yes, Rena was Glaswegian but living in 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:39.760 England when she met Fred. She was working as a 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:43.160 sex worker. And when she met Fred, she was pregnant 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:47.480 to a Pakistani man. It is speculated that she may 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.199 have moved to England because her family didn't agree with 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.280 the pregnancy, particularly given it was going to be a 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:54.320 mixed race child. 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:58.560 And this was the sixties. Was sixties and you were imagine, 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.400 oh my god, and you're mad and sex work. At 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.640 that time, they didn't call it that, but sex work. 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.640 You imagine just how horrible that would have been for her. 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:14.440 Yeah, and the racism as well. But when she met Fred, 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:18.040 they quickly got into a relationship, and when her baby 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:21.520 daughter arrived, the couple told people that she had actually 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:24.560 lost her baby during childbirth and they had adopted this 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:30.040 baby to explain why the baby girl had darker skin 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.559 than both of her parents. The baby's name was Charmaine. 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:39.400 Have you seen the film The Jerk with Steve Martin 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:42.680 and his and he's grown up and finds out he's adopted, 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:46.040 and he's with a clearly African American, beautiful family, and 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:47.760 he finds out he's adopted that like when he was 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:52.720 like Elf. Yeah, it's exactly like Elf as well. 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:54.800 If he doesn't know he's a human by now, he's. 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.760 Beautiful because my brother was adopted. And I think it 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:04.199 and be hard sometimes realizing that you feel different or 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.640 you look different or anything. And you know, obviously back 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:09.760 then that would have been harder. You know, my parents 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.160 found it hard to explain to people, you know, you 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:15.080 just so I imagine at this time it would have 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.120 been even harder to explain. 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:19.000 Yeah, and isn't that awful as well? But you know, 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:23.360 people just go, well, why exactly. A friend of mine 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:27.240 is adopted. She was born in Korea and was adopted 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.680 to an Australian fam, a white Australian family, And she 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:34.960 said she didn't have any concept that she didn't look 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:39.200 the same until she started school and people asked her 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:40.440 why she looked different to people. 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:44.440 Oh wow, isn't that fast? Yeah? Quickly. I found a 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:46.760 book when I was really young, and the book was 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:48.840 called why Am I Adopted? And I thought it for me. 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:55.560 Oh my god, Sammy, oh stop, I'm just picturing kittling 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:57.840 face kid photos I've seen. 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:00.520 Just ask him the question. Oh. 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:02.520 My sister always tried to tell me I was adopted 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:04.560 because she didn't like me and my mom. I like 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:05.760 the spitting image of. 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:06.520 It, exactly. 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:13.040 Yeah, all right. So baby Charmain arrived in nineteen sixty two. 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.920 Fred became very obsessed with Rena, very quickly, thinking she 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.600 was quite worldly and wild. You know, she'd come from 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:26.480 a different country, she you know, had a baby, she'd 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:31.160 been working in the sex industry. He would demand sex 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.600 from her whenever he wanted it, and yeah, yeah, right, 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:39.360 and Rena essentially felt she had no choice. She also 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.080 became obsessed with him in what I am describing as 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:46.000 a very toxic way. She tattooed his name onto her 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:47.600 with a backyard tattoo pin. 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:52.480 Oh wow, that would be so painful and not Higland 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:52.760 as well. 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.079 Yeah also that also that, Yeah, don't do that at home. 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:59.560 It's been suggested that Rena was likely seeking stability and 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.800 the love she felt she didn't otherwise have in her life. 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:06.080 They married in nineteen sixty two, the year they met, 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.360 Fred aged twenty one and Rena eighteen. 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:10.080 Wow. 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.240 They moved out together back to Scotland, where Rena was from, 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:17.800 with Baby Charmain. Fred kept his worrying sexual behaviors up 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:22.040 and encouraged Rena to go back to sex work to 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.079 help them make money, but he would berate and punish 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:26.640 her for sleeping with other people. 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:27.400 Wow. 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:29.640 It seemed he really used this as a form of 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:34.320 serious control and manipulation. He essentially brought up baby Charmain 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.679 as his own, but he didn't ever really bond with her. 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.360 Fred and Rena together biologically this time, had a second baby, 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.400 Anna Marie, in nineteen sixty four. Only a little over 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:51.479 a year older than Charmaine. As soon as she arrived, 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:57.000 Fred neglected Charmain even more. In nineteen sixty five, Fred 0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:59.760 was working as an ice cream van driver, which like, 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:04.199 so yeah, when you know it's not gross to be 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:08.120 ice cream, he's one of the most heinous men in history. 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:13.360 And like, by then the marriage was really faltering. He 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:16.360 was cheating on Rena a lot, and over time he 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.760 didn't even try to hide it. Rena hide a nanny 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.800 to help look after the girls. Her name was Isa McNeil. 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:25.600 She moved in with them and was helping them. She 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:30.480 was a teenage girl herself. She Issa described Rena and 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.200 Fred's marriage as very tumultuous and very violent. He said 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.400 the sorry, she said. The little girl slept in a 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:40.320 bottom bunk with bars fitted to essentially cage them in, 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.959 and they were only allowed out while Fred was at work. 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:47.920 Oh my god. A friend of issues so he wouldn't guess. 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:51.040 He was so violent and young. But also he just 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.000 didn't He didn't want them around. He wanted his time 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:59.360 and his peace at home. A friend of Isa's so 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.160 is the only A friend of hers named Anne mcfull 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.360 who was also from Scotland, came over to England and 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:07.800 spent a lot of time at the home as well. 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.680 She was sixteen. Her boyfriend had been killed in a 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.720 workplace accident and she really leant on her friend Issa 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:16.840 for support and essentially ended up boarding with Fred and 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:22.320 Rena as well. In November of the same year, baby 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.760 Anna Marie was born. Fred accidentally hit and killed a 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:27.400 child with the ice cream van. 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:28.680 Oh how horrific. 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.440 And it was ruled that this was in an accident. 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.280 How horrific for everyone involved with that, but the town 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:39.360 very much turned against him. It would be very hard 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:43.800 to see the person that that had been behind the 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.160 wheel when that happened, whether they were deemed responsible or not. 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.200 So Fred made the decision to move back to England. 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.200 He didn't want to live in this town anymore. He 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.120 took the two baby girls and moved, while Rena set 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:57.520 herself up to move as well. I don't really I 0:14:57.520 --> 0:15:00.760 couldn't really find out why she didn't move away as well. 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:01.760 I don't know if it was a bit of a 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.440 He just went I'm getting rid of your bye, and 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:04.960 then she was like, okay, hang on, let me come. 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:06.960 But three months later she moved over and joined them 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:08.760 as well, and she also. 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:09.960 Brought I thought that might have been a split. I 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:11.520 thought that might have been a way to get out. 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.600 She brought Isa McNeil and Anne McFall, the two kind 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.480 of pseudo well you know, nanny and kind of border 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:26.120 slash nanny with her back to England as well. Both 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:28.800 these girls came from very poor backgrounds and hoped England 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:30.600 would be a better place for them to find jobs 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:36.480 and make a start on new lives. They all so, Fred, Rena, Issa, 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.440 and the two baby girls all moved into a caravan together. 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:43.040 Oh wow, clammed. 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:45.040 And Fred found work as a lorry driver for a 0:15:45.080 --> 0:15:47.720 local abattoir, which I just feel like the only time 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:58.560 I hear about people obvious people who aren't. Yeah, and 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.760 Rena got a job at a local fame. Fred did 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.720 not stop his violent outbursts, and he also started turning 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:10.000 on Isa in particular as well as Rena, And so 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:14.640 he kind of any female who was kind of living 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:17.720 with him, and he saw us under his reign, and 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:19.960 he could be violent and angry towards and he would 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.800 blow up really quickly and really easily and be very violent. 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:30.200 The three women together hatched a plan to escape Fred. 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:31.960 They had had enough and they didn't want to be 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:37.040 part of this anymore. They Rena actually called in an 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.480 old boyfriend of hers to help get the mount while 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.560 Fred was at work one day. I think it was 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:44.200 Feathers mcral exactly. 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:46.360 I'm not going to explain anything together. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:51.320 If you guys haven't listened to all the other episodes, one. 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.400 Of the greatest criminals all times, you never. 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.040 Really had much context to bring him up. 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:59.200 I never come up in a natural way. 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.800 So they made a pre arranged time to have him 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:08.280 come in. Not Feathers, this man come in and help 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.200 them kind of pack up and leave. While Fred was 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:10.560 at work. 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:11.560 Do you look like a penguin? 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.159 I'm not sure. I didn't look up photos, but if 0:17:14.200 --> 0:17:17.200 you want to afterwards, we can. It was a chicken 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:19.359 he was meant to look No, he was a penguin. 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.400 He's meant to look like a He got me he can. 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:29.239 At the pre arranged time, Fred unexpectedly came home and 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:33.439 found them leaving. Wow never home at this time, and 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:38.800 both Rena and Issa noted that Anne didn't seem that surprised, 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.760 and she was very calm at Fred's arrival. She stayed 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.320 calm while Fred was obviously blowing up and tried to 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.760 placate him. She said she would stay with him and 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:53.000 the children if Fred was saying you're not taking my 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:56.000 children anywhere, and was kind of saying it's okay, like 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:58.879 I'll keep him calm you guys go, we'll work this 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.959 out later, and Issa left. They went back to Glasgow 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:05.600 and left the two little girls with their violent and 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:10.640 abusive father and this young border slash nanny and McFall. 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.159 It wasn't until the women were back in Scotland it 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.160 was revealed what had gone on and Fred had been 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.720 having an affair and told her that's why she wasn't 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:24.080 surprised when he him home. She had actually tipped him off, 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.679 wanting them to go so they couldn't take the children 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:28.920 and she could stay with him. 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:29.720 Oh my god. 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:33.640 And told her friends and family violetters that she'd become 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:37.040 infatuated with Fred and believed that living in England with 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:38.960 him would set her up for a good life and 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.800 she was trying to encourage him to divorce Rena and 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:42.400 marry her. 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:43.200 Wow. 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:49.560 Over the coming couple of years, Rena was coming back 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.600 and forth to see her children and try to take 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.480 them back into her care. While also trying to remain 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:56.880 kind of safe from Fred as well. 0:18:57.000 --> 0:18:58.560 Sure she was terrified of him. 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:02.399 Fred was placing them in the care of social services 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.439 on and off, so that's when she would come back. 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:06.840 I'm gonna say that if they're in social services care 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.680 on their mother or take them back. But they continued. 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.359 I haven't gone into this here, but Riena and Fred 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:16.480 continued on and off very toxic, very tumultuous relationship over 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.800 this time as well. Whether it was you know, manipulation 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.199 about being with the children, whether it was you know, 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.080 parts of jealousy of not wanting and to be with him, 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.120 or just wanting to keep the family together. But they were, 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:33.080 they were and stayed and stayed. 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:34.919 Andrina came back and yeah. 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:39.720 Wow yeah in nineteen sixty seven and fell pregnant with 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.159 Fred's baby, but it seemed he was none too pleased 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.160 about this by the time she was almost full term. 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.920 When she was eight months pregnant, and left the home 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:50.800 one day and Fred never saw her again. 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:52.040 Wow. 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:57.240 Over the next eighteen months, Fred spiraled downwards, which is 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:00.959 pretty low from where he do it. He was arrested 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:03.840 multiple times for thefts, He lost his job as a driver, 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:07.720 He put his kids back in the care of social services. 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:12.040 But Fred's luck was about to change. After being a 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.800 single dad kind of in and out of social service 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.720 care for about eighteen months, he set his sights on 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:22.160 a woman named Rosemary Letts or a girl I should say. 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:26.879 She was fifteen Fred fifteen Fred at this time was 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:27.600 twenty seven. 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:28.600 Oh my god. 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:33.800 They met waiting for a bus. Rose initially said she 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:38.560 was repulsed by Fred. He was dirty, unkempt, and creepy. 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:42.159 But Fred didn't let up. He showered her with attention 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.679 and adoration, and this soon became quite flattering to the 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:47.080 young Rosemary. 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:49.280 Lets stayed in touch after meeting at a bus stop. 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:51.560 Somehow the same bus every day. 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.200 And long, ah okay, I met her at the bust. 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:56.800 To this first day, became infatuated with her, kept going 0:20:56.840 --> 0:20:58.920 back to the same bus stop and they were getting 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.879 the same bus. Called a meat fowl, a meat fowl exact, 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:06.960 that's good fowl like chicken like if you w l like. 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:13.520 Got me again, feathers. 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:16.320 He would like go to. He found out where she 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:18.359 worked and would go to the cafe and bring her 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:21.160 gifts and fowls, and was really trying to woo her, 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:26.280 and it worked. The two standed a relationship within weeks. 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.119 After being repulsed by someone that he's such a wild 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:30.680 turn around. 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:36.520 Oh sorry, I've missed a little paragraph here. Fred founder 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.440 out that Rose hadn't ever had a boyfriend, but was 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:42.359 quite promiscuous, and he really liked this. 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:45.440 He liked that Rose was promiscuous. Yeah, okay. 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:48.440 He also very much played up the sob story about 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:50.840 being the single father to two little girls having been 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:52.280 abandoned by their mother. 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.560 Also like, you might not know this information. 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:57.240 But I know everything. I mean, you know that. 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:01.520 If Rena has left of our own volition and everything. 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:04.280 There was no obviously because she was scared of him. 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:05.960 There was no like court thing where it was like 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.240