WEBVTT - Bruce Lehrmann has lost his defamation case. What does that mean? 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.320 Already, and this is the Daily This is the Daily Off, 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:05.640 This is the Daily ohs oh. 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:06.920 Now it makes sense. 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:12.320 Just a quick trigger warning. We'll be talking about sexual 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.400 assault in today's episode. Help is available at one eight 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:19.200 hundred respect that's one eight hundred seven three seven seven. 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:19.480 Three to two. 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:22.720 At their website. They've got online chat and video chat 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:23.160 as well. 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:31.760 Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Tuesday, 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:36.040 the sixteenth of April. I'm Sam, I'm Lucy. Yesterday, Justice 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:39.200 Michael Lee handed down his judgment in the defamation case 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:43.400 Bruce Lehman brought against journalist Lisa Wilkinson and Network ten, 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:46.560 finding that it was more likely than not that Lherman 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.320 raped fellow liberal staffer Britney Higgins in twenty nineteen and 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:51.960 therefore was not defamed. 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:54.600 Mister Lherman raped Mishiggins. 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:59.000 I sincerely hope that this judgment gives strength to women 0:00:59.120 --> 0:00:59.960 around the country. 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.120 Having escaped the lines dean, mister Lehman made the mistake 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:04.600 of coming back for his head. 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.800 There is nothing simple or straightforward about this case. But 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:11.120 today TDF fact checker Lucy Tassel and I will endeavor 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.560 to unpack it. But first, Lucy what's making headlines. 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:20.919 The New South Wales Coroner has been granted extra funding 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:23.840 for its inquest into the mass stabbing at Bondai Junction 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.280 in Sydney's East last weekend. The Coroner's Court has been 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:30.639 allocated an additional eighteen million dollars in funding, which covers 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.720 trauma informed care for victims and families. Six people were 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.920 killed and the attacker was shot by police. New South 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.880 Wales Police Commissioner Karen Webb said it's obvious to me, 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.039 it's obvious to detectives that the offender focused on women 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.360 and avoided the men. The government has said its approach 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:49.760 to this is similar to the Lint Cafe siege in 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:50.520 twenty fourteen. 0:01:52.560 --> 0:01:56.040 A church leader and several worshippers were stabbed at Christ 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.160 the Good Shepherd church in Sydney's West last night. The 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.680 event was live streamed now. According to New Southwales Police, 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.000 the injured people suffered non life threatening injuries and were 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:09.440 treated by New South Wales Ambulance paramedics before being sent 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.760 to hospital. Following the incident, crowds gathered at the location 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:18.120 and police launched a wild scale public order operation. Two 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.080 police officers were injured, including one who was hit with 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:25.079 a brick and a number of police vehicles sustained damage. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.560 A Victorian court has fined betting company Blue Bet fifty 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.840 thousand dollars for breaching advertising rules by putting ads on 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:37.600 public roads. The state's Gambling Commission took the company to 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.280 court after an investigation found Blue Bet placed billboards across 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:45.240 freeways in Victoria in quote the prime position to target 0:02:45.280 --> 0:02:49.239 man aged fifteen to fifty four. Magistrate Greg Thomas said 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:52.200 the breach shows quote a high degree of negligence by 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:54.280 Blue Bet, which had pleaded guilty to. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:58.800 The charges, and today's good news. Over the weekends, the 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:02.320 A League Women may history, setting a new Australian record 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.760 for the most attended season of women's sport in the 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.000 semi final between the Newcastle Jets and the Central Coast Mariners. 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.680 Over the weekend, A League Women became the most attended 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:15.320 season in Australian history. The cumulative number of spectators reached 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.880 nearly three hundred thousand people that surpassed the previous record 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:26.680 held by the twenty twenty three AFL Women's regular season. So, 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:28.440 just before we get started, I just wanted to make 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.240 one quick note. Tda's editor in chief is Billye fitz Simon's, 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.240 who is the daughter of Lisa Wilkinson. Billy had no 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.720 editorial oversight or involvement with this story or any post 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.360 we've made about this story's developments. 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:42.320 That's right. 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:46.520 Yesterday, Sam, we watched Federal Court Judge Michael Lee hand 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.480 down a judgment in a case that has, I think 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:52.520 it's safe to say, really captured the nation's attention. I mean, 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.080 just looking at the numbers on the Federal Court live 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:59.400 stream yesterday, forty four thousand people at its peak, and 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.360 we can assume more watching on TVs as it was 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.440 also broadcast in part on TV. I think it could 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:09.680 be easy, certainly for me, it is kind of years 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.520 and years down the track to lose sight of the 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:17.200 actual origin of this case. Why so many people took 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:18.560 time out of their days. 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:22.240 To watch a very dry, very upsetting one camera. 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.919 For many hours to watch a judgment in a defamation 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:27.080 case be handed down. 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:29.440 So can you take me back to the start. 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:31.000 So to do that, we have to go back to 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:35.320 twenty nineteen and Brittany Higgins and Bruce Lehman were staffers 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:39.520 for Defense Minister Linda Reynolds in Canberra and as Justice 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:43.880 Lee outlined in court yesterday, his understanding of the facts 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.159 is that the two went out for drinks after work 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:49.880 with a big group of friends to several venues around Canberra. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.320 Then they returned to Parliament House, their workplace, and went 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:57.680 into Reynolds' office and this was the early hours of 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.960 the next morning. Now Justice Lee f that it's more 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:02.640 likely than not, and we're going to come back to 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:07.000 what exactly that means that Bruce Lehmon raped Britney Higgins 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:08.280 at that office. 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.599 So that's March twenty nineteen. That's a long way from 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.920 April twenty twenty four. What has happened in those intervening years. 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.400 So then we fast forward two years to February of 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.560 twenty twenty one, and that's when Brittany Higgins went to 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.280 the media with these allegations that she had been raped 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:29.120 in Parliament House by an unnamed at that point political staffer, 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.039 which we now know is Bruce Lemon. And I just 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.960 want to be really clear in a criminal court he 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:38.400 has always denied this, and in fact he's always denied 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:43.000 any sexual contact happened between them. Higgins sat down with 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.320 interviews with news dot Com today U Samantha Maiden was 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.960 the journalist there and with journalist Lisa Wilkinson who was 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:53.400 then working with the Network ten show the project, the 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.880 interview with Wilkinson and the story in news dot com 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:57.960 do U came out on the same day. That was 0:05:58.000 --> 0:05:59.880 February fifteenth, twenty twenty one. 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.000 That was a huge day. That was really it's. 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:04.520 Really a nation defining story. 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:07.880 It was an inflection point, you know, up until this 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:12.000 point and then everything changes after that. So you've mentioned 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.599 that this case that Luhrman's brought this case against Lisa 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.400 wilkinsoner Network ten, but you have mentioned news dot com 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.719 dot AU, So were they also being sued. 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.160 Yeah, they were also being sued, and so was the 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:27.159 ABC for broadcasting a speech by Higgins, as well as 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:31.400 Wilkinson and Network ten. But Lherman actually settled the cases 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.280 with news dot com, to U and ABC on the 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.159 first day of these exact proceedings last year. 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.400 So we've started with these very publicized allegations, but they're 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.080 made against a person who we don't know who they are. 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.080 It's an unnamed person. So how do we get to 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.680 knowing who Bruce Lehman is? How do we get from 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:56.479 anonymous person not named, not described to, or not specifically 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:01.119 described to the person able to breed a defamation case. 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:03.640 Well, this is actually the first bit of what Justice 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.520 Lee needed to establish in his judgment yesterday, because in 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.040 order to sue someone for defamation, you need to make 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.040 it clear that they're talking about you. And Justice Lee 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:16.440 found that, Yeah, a reasonable person would ascertain that the 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.760 person who was the subject of Britney Higgins's comments in 0:07:19.840 --> 0:07:23.840 that project interview was Bruce Lehman, even though Brittney Higgins 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:27.480 didn't specify the name of who she alleged had raped her. 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.120 But you know, one of the first things that Justice 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.840 Lee found was that he was identifiable. Justice Lee said 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:37.440 he was quote amply satisfied that Lehman was identified, and 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:39.920 this was based on evidence given by witnesses that he 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.080 described as quote telltale. 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:44.120 So what was this telltale evidence? 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:47.640 Well, Justice Lee turned to the fact that Lehman and 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.320 Higgins had been at drinks on the night in question, 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:52.880 that he was at the time of the interview working 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.280 in Sydney, which Lehman was, and some loose details about 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.360 the job he'd had before working for Reynolds. And all 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.360 of this, a few other points were enough for some 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.880 witnesses with quote specific knowledge of the situation to know 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.360 who Higgins was talking about. So picture somebody you know 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.800 watching this interview on television. These facts started to emerge 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.800 in Britney Higgins's interview. That was enough to really say, yes, 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:19.840 I think I know who they're talking about. 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:22.960 And we saw some of that evidence being tendered in 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:29.440 the trial of like various group chats various people within 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.800 Lehman's life kind of saying we think that he was 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.199 probably the subject of this interview that we're all watching. 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.320 Yeah, but the public only really became aware of Bruce 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.760 Lehman as the subject of this when the matter proceeded 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:44.920 to a criminal trial in twenty twenty one. 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.720 Yeah, So what happened with that criminal. 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:51.120 Trial, Well, that trial was suspended due to DURA misconducts 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.880 and a retrial was later abandoned. And I think that's 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.720 what makes this defamation case really notable because there was 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:01.679 never a criminal finding the way about what happened on 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.600 that night in March twenty nineteen, and there still isn't 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:06.960 and I think that's an important point. But now there 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.280 is a civil finding. But this case, yeah, really moved 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.960 into then the question of reputational damage. 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.040 So Lehman believes that he's been identified despite not being 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.760 named in this original interview. That kind of gets the 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.120 ball rolling on this. And now that there hasn't been 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:25.000 a criminal trial, his name is just sort of out 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.960 there associated with this unproven allegation. So is that what 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:30.800 kind of brings him to this point of bringing a 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:32.600 defamation case exactly? 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.240 And then this kind of forms then the second and 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:38.600 third parts of what Justice Lee needed to establish to 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.600 work out whether Lehman had been defamed. And so once 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.280 we'd established that it was in fact Lehman who was 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.160 the subject of the interview, we then move on to 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.960 is the content of the interview the claims made against Lehman? 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.760 Are they true or not? And if they were true, 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.920 then Channel ten and Lisa Wilkinson could rely on what's 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.720 called the truth defense. So in order to kind of 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:02.920 prove for the truth defense, it almost became a forensic 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:06.680 trial in nature. There were witnesses being called who were 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:10.600 on security at Parliament House that night, there were people 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:12.960 who were at the drinks, there was ex partners of 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.800 both parties. Because what the court needed to ascertain is 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.720 whether or not what Channel ten were claiming about Bruce 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:23.120 Lehman was true, but they needed to do so not 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.959 beyond the reasonable doubt, but on the balance of probabilities. 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:31.079 So I definitely have heard the phrase beyond a reasonable 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.560 doubt used before in terms of criminal cases. 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:35.760 So what's the balance of probabilities? How's that different? 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:39.400 So in the criminal system and the civil system, there's 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.240 two different burdens of proof, and a burden of proof 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:45.280 is the words used to describe what a party needs 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.960 to prove in order to prosecute the case. Now, in 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.880 the criminal system, the burden of proof is beyond the 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.840 reasonable doubt, and what that essentially means is in the 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:56.600 mind of the judge or a jury, there needs to 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.480 be no doubt in their mind that what is being 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:03.720 claimed did indeed happen. So think about something like speeding 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:07.679 in your car. It's beyond a reasonable doubt because you 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.640 were either going one hundred klumeter this hour or you 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.640 weren't going one hundred klometers an hour, And so it's 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.120 the job of a prosecutor to really prove that there's 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:19.400 absolutely no doubt that this happened. In a civil system, 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.640 we use a burden of proof called the balance of probabilities. 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:26.280 And the question that needs to be answered here is 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:29.880 is it more likely than not that something happened. So 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:32.960 think about it almost as like fifty one percent. Is 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.960 it fifty one percent likely that this happened, And there's 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.280 more chance that it did happen than it didn't happen. 0:11:38.480 --> 0:11:41.079 And so that was the level of proof that Justice 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.880 Lee was looking at when making his determination yesterday. And 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.920 Justice Lee did find that it is more likely than 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.600 not that Lehmann did rape Higgins in Minister Reynolds's office 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:52.920 in March twenty nineteen. 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:55.920 I consider it more likely than not in those early 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.760 hours mister Lehman was held bent on having sex with 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.960 a woman he found sixtually attracted. He's pursuit of Grantiford cushion. 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:04.960 He did not here one way or the other, whether 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:07.439 miss Higgins understood or agreed to what was going on. 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.000 Mister Lhermann raped mis Higgins. 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:12.680 So it really has come down to it's a lower 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:17.080 kind of burden of proof than a criminal finding. Bruce 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.400 Lemon's not going to jail. 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.680 Over this, no, So these have no relevance in the 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.920 kind of criminal world in terms of the criminal justice system. 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.959 Bruce Lemon has neither been found guilty or not guilty. 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:30.520 The trial was never finished. 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.720 So there's obviously a lot to this case. 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.520 That being said, though, so Justice Michael Lee has handed 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:43.400 down a three hundred page plus decision. So what else 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:45.480 was kind of in that judgment? 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:47.600 Well, look, there was a lot and you know, we 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.559 have this three hundred page decision that when printed would 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.440 look and feel like a novel. We also had yesterday 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:55.240 I think it was two and a half hours of 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.760 judgment delivered felt like more. Yeah, it was very long, 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.679 and so there's lots of an analysis by Justice Lee. 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:06.199 He goes through systematically every witness, almost to us called 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.560 discusses the reliability of everybody from Britney Higgins, Bruce Lehman, 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:14.120 Lisa Wilkinson, everybody involved in the case really and what 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:16.720 he found, notably was that Bruce Lehman was found to 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:21.120 have told quote deliberate lies about quote important issues in 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:21.640 the case. 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:22.280 Yeah. 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:26.200 Now, he also said that Higgins, who testified in the 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.960 case to support ten and Wilkinson's case, had said quote 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:34.960 untruths or distortions herself throughout giving evidence. But something really 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:38.319 important to note here, and I was quite impressed that 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:40.959 Justice Lee went into this was he said that lawyers 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.480 on both sides had agreed that quote, trauma has a 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:49.840 severe impact on memory by splintering and fragmenting memories, inconsistencies 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.160 often observed in reliable reports of sexual assault, and is 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.760 not in and of itself a measure of deception. 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.680 That's amazing because that's something that we certainly have read 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.920 about in scientific articles, but it feels rare for that 0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:05.199 to have come up in a high profile case like. 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.000 This, definitely, and I think it will be used by 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.560 other courts throughout Australia as a model for how to 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:16.360 incorporate a trauma based response to these types of cases totally. 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.400 And that also includes he found on the balance of 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.080 probabilities that there was a trauma that informed this. 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:26.800 Case exactly, and so then you know, putting all those 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:31.640 parts together, Whilst he found that Ten and Wilkinson did 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.000 identify Lehman in the broadcast, he found that Ten and 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.640 Wilkinson could rely on this truth defense and therefore Ten 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.360 and Wilkinson were not held liable for defamation from Lehman. 0:14:42.520 --> 0:14:44.400 So that leaves us in a very interesting position. 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.280 Yeah, so what happens. 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.360 Now, Well, we have another court date, and that's the 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.320 twenty second of April, so we don't have to wait 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:54.920 too long for that, and that's when parties submit what's 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.520 called costs, and costs is essentially think of it as 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.320 a receipt of how much it had cost for the 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.200 legal representation that the parties have had to have to 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:07.600 present their case at this trial. And what typically happens. 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:09.440 And we don't know whether this is going to happen 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.440 for sure, but it's reasonably likely there I am sounding 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.000 like a civil lawyer. It's reasonably likely that it is 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:18.720 going to happen is that Lhman will be ordered to 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.800 either partially or fully cover the legal costs of ten 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:27.000 and Wilkinson. And this is almost a recognition from the 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.920 court that in failing to convince the court of his argument, 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.800 somebody has to foot the bill, right And so I 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:36.760 mean that could be in the millions of dollars and 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:38.840 we're not going to know exactly how much that is 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:42.080 until the twenty second of April. That's when the parties 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:44.040 have to submit their cost to the court and then 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.880 Justice League will go back and review them and work 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.120 out how much Bruce Lehman has to pay. Now It's 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.480 really important that we also acknowledge that Bruce Lehmon has 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:57.040 the option to appeal this civil case. So whilst it 0:15:57.120 --> 0:15:59.120 might feel like a conclusion in the end of the road, 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:03.320 it's not exactly the end of this story, I. 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.320 See, And certainly there are we won't touch on them today, 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:10.320 but certainly there are other legal actions from other parties 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.200 in this case. We have not heard the last of it, 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:18.800 but at least for today we have a finding sam 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:22.360 Justice Michael Lee has developed a reputation for having little 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:26.320 one liners throughout this very dark case that have really 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:28.800 been kind of a silver lining. Can you I think 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:32.440 my favorite was when he said that mister Lhman had 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.880 quote escaped the lions den but gone back for his hat. 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:37.360 Can you explain what that means? 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.760 Yeah, he certainly was entertaining during the judgment, and it 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:42.880 did make watching the two and a half hour broadcast 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.480 with you a little more enjoyable. But I think this 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.200 phrase really does hit an important point and one important 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:51.680 for us to end on. And by saying that he 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:53.960 escaped the line and went back to get his hat 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:58.320 or whatever exactly, the phrase was. What the Justice is 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.360 saying is Bruce Lehem and brought this case on himself, 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:03.920 and he was the one who brought to the court 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:10.760 the claim of defamation that triggered this long, detail oriented 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.959 exposure of what happened that night in Parliament House and 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:19.520 indeed a huge judgment yesterday that essentially degraded Lehman's character 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.080 from the Federal Court of Australia. I thought it was 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.119 a really apt expression. There's now been a couple of 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.119 these defamation cases in Australia where people have brought an action, 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:32.560 bringing their particular case back into the center of the 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:36.920 media spotlight and then lost. And yeah, he certainly did, 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:38.920 you know, escape the lion, but went back to get 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:40.359 his hat and got bidden. 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.960 Yeah, was the hat really worth it? 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.040 That's an interesting question. So, as I said, Lehman can 0:17:46.080 --> 0:17:49.000 still appeal this case. He has still maintained his innocence 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:51.880 in a criminal court. But a big moment in defamation 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.280 law and in media law here in Australia. 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:56.640 If these episodes brought anything up for you, you can 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.320 call one eight hundred respect which is one eight hundred 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.120 seven three seven seven three two and at their website 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:07.800 they've got online chats and video calls. 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.159 My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:17.159 Bunjelung Calgaton woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.399 that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.040 Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:24.160 Rate island and nations. 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.400 We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries, 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:28.720 both past and present.