1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Already, and this is the Daily This is the Daily Off, 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: This is the Daily ohs oh. 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 2: Now it makes sense. 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: Just a quick trigger warning. We'll be talking about sexual 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: assault in today's episode. Help is available at one eight 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: hundred respect that's one eight hundred seven three seven seven. 7 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 2: Three to two. 8 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: At their website. They've got online chat and video chat 9 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: as well. 10 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 3: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Tuesday, 11 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 3: the sixteenth of April. I'm Sam, I'm Lucy. Yesterday, Justice 12 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 3: Michael Lee handed down his judgment in the defamation case 13 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 3: Bruce Lehman brought against journalist Lisa Wilkinson and Network ten, 14 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 3: finding that it was more likely than not that Lherman 15 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 3: raped fellow liberal staffer Britney Higgins in twenty nineteen and 16 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 3: therefore was not defamed. 17 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 4: Mister Lherman raped Mishiggins. 18 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 3: I sincerely hope that this judgment gives strength to women 19 00:00:59,120 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 3: around the country. 20 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 4: Having escaped the lines dean, mister Lehman made the mistake 21 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 4: of coming back for his head. 22 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 3: There is nothing simple or straightforward about this case. But 23 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 3: today TDF fact checker Lucy Tassel and I will endeavor 24 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 3: to unpack it. But first, Lucy what's making headlines. 25 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,919 Speaker 1: The New South Wales Coroner has been granted extra funding 26 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: for its inquest into the mass stabbing at Bondai Junction 27 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: in Sydney's East last weekend. The Coroner's Court has been 28 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,639 Speaker 1: allocated an additional eighteen million dollars in funding, which covers 29 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: trauma informed care for victims and families. Six people were 30 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: killed and the attacker was shot by police. New South 31 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: Wales Police Commissioner Karen Webb said it's obvious to me, 32 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: it's obvious to detectives that the offender focused on women 33 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: and avoided the men. The government has said its approach 34 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: to this is similar to the Lint Cafe siege in 35 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. 36 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 3: A church leader and several worshippers were stabbed at Christ 37 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 3: the Good Shepherd church in Sydney's West last night. The 38 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 3: event was live streamed now. According to New Southwales Police, 39 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 3: the injured people suffered non life threatening injuries and were 40 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 3: treated by New South Wales Ambulance paramedics before being sent 41 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: to hospital. Following the incident, crowds gathered at the location 42 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 3: and police launched a wild scale public order operation. Two 43 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 3: police officers were injured, including one who was hit with 44 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,079 Speaker 3: a brick and a number of police vehicles sustained damage. 45 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: A Victorian court has fined betting company Blue Bet fifty 46 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: thousand dollars for breaching advertising rules by putting ads on 47 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: public roads. The state's Gambling Commission took the company to 48 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: court after an investigation found Blue Bet placed billboards across 49 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: freeways in Victoria in quote the prime position to target 50 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: man aged fifteen to fifty four. Magistrate Greg Thomas said 51 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: the breach shows quote a high degree of negligence by 52 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: Blue Bet, which had pleaded guilty to. 53 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 3: The charges, and today's good news. Over the weekends, the 54 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 3: A League Women may history, setting a new Australian record 55 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: for the most attended season of women's sport in the 56 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 3: semi final between the Newcastle Jets and the Central Coast Mariners. 57 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 3: Over the weekend, A League Women became the most attended 58 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: season in Australian history. The cumulative number of spectators reached 59 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 3: nearly three hundred thousand people that surpassed the previous record 60 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 3: held by the twenty twenty three AFL Women's regular season. So, 61 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 3: just before we get started, I just wanted to make 62 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 3: one quick note. Tda's editor in chief is Billye fitz Simon's, 63 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 3: who is the daughter of Lisa Wilkinson. Billy had no 64 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 3: editorial oversight or involvement with this story or any post 65 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 3: we've made about this story's developments. 66 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: That's right. 67 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: Yesterday, Sam, we watched Federal Court Judge Michael Lee hand 68 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: down a judgment in a case that has, I think 69 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: it's safe to say, really captured the nation's attention. I mean, 70 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: just looking at the numbers on the Federal Court live 71 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: stream yesterday, forty four thousand people at its peak, and 72 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: we can assume more watching on TVs as it was 73 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: also broadcast in part on TV. I think it could 74 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: be easy, certainly for me, it is kind of years 75 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: and years down the track to lose sight of the 76 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: actual origin of this case. Why so many people took 77 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: time out of their days. 78 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 3: To watch a very dry, very upsetting one camera. 79 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: For many hours to watch a judgment in a defamation 80 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: case be handed down. 81 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: So can you take me back to the start. 82 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 3: So to do that, we have to go back to 83 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: twenty nineteen and Brittany Higgins and Bruce Lehman were staffers 84 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 3: for Defense Minister Linda Reynolds in Canberra and as Justice 85 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 3: Lee outlined in court yesterday, his understanding of the facts 86 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 3: is that the two went out for drinks after work 87 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 3: with a big group of friends to several venues around Canberra. 88 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 3: Then they returned to Parliament House, their workplace, and went 89 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 3: into Reynolds' office and this was the early hours of 90 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 3: the next morning. Now Justice Lee f that it's more 91 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 3: likely than not, and we're going to come back to 92 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 3: what exactly that means that Bruce Lehmon raped Britney Higgins 93 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 3: at that office. 94 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: So that's March twenty nineteen. That's a long way from 95 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: April twenty twenty four. What has happened in those intervening years. 96 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 3: So then we fast forward two years to February of 97 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, and that's when Brittany Higgins went to 98 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 3: the media with these allegations that she had been raped 99 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 3: in Parliament House by an unnamed at that point political staffer, 100 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 3: which we now know is Bruce Lemon. And I just 101 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 3: want to be really clear in a criminal court he 102 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 3: has always denied this, and in fact he's always denied 103 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 3: any sexual contact happened between them. Higgins sat down with 104 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 3: interviews with news dot Com today U Samantha Maiden was 105 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 3: the journalist there and with journalist Lisa Wilkinson who was 106 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 3: then working with the Network ten show the project, the 107 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 3: interview with Wilkinson and the story in news dot com 108 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 3: do U came out on the same day. That was 109 00:05:58,000 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: February fifteenth, twenty twenty one. 110 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: That was a huge day. That was really it's. 111 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 3: Really a nation defining story. 112 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: It was an inflection point, you know, up until this 113 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: point and then everything changes after that. So you've mentioned 114 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: that this case that Luhrman's brought this case against Lisa 115 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: wilkinsoner Network ten, but you have mentioned news dot com 116 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: dot AU, So were they also being sued. 117 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, they were also being sued, and so was the 118 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 3: ABC for broadcasting a speech by Higgins, as well as 119 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 3: Wilkinson and Network ten. But Lherman actually settled the cases 120 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 3: with news dot com, to U and ABC on the 121 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 3: first day of these exact proceedings last year. 122 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: So we've started with these very publicized allegations, but they're 123 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: made against a person who we don't know who they are. 124 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 1: It's an unnamed person. So how do we get to 125 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: knowing who Bruce Lehman is? How do we get from 126 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: anonymous person not named, not described to, or not specifically 127 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:01,119 Speaker 1: described to the person able to breed a defamation case. 128 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 3: Well, this is actually the first bit of what Justice 129 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 3: Lee needed to establish in his judgment yesterday, because in 130 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 3: order to sue someone for defamation, you need to make 131 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 3: it clear that they're talking about you. And Justice Lee 132 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: found that, Yeah, a reasonable person would ascertain that the 133 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 3: person who was the subject of Britney Higgins's comments in 134 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 3: that project interview was Bruce Lehman, even though Brittney Higgins 135 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 3: didn't specify the name of who she alleged had raped her. 136 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 3: But you know, one of the first things that Justice 137 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: Lee found was that he was identifiable. Justice Lee said 138 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 3: he was quote amply satisfied that Lehman was identified, and 139 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 3: this was based on evidence given by witnesses that he 140 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: described as quote telltale. 141 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 2: So what was this telltale evidence? 142 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 3: Well, Justice Lee turned to the fact that Lehman and 143 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: Higgins had been at drinks on the night in question, 144 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 3: that he was at the time of the interview working 145 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 3: in Sydney, which Lehman was, and some loose details about 146 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 3: the job he'd had before working for Reynolds. And all 147 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 3: of this, a few other points were enough for some 148 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 3: witnesses with quote specific knowledge of the situation to know 149 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 3: who Higgins was talking about. So picture somebody you know 150 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 3: watching this interview on television. These facts started to emerge 151 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 3: in Britney Higgins's interview. That was enough to really say, yes, 152 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 3: I think I know who they're talking about. 153 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: And we saw some of that evidence being tendered in 154 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: the trial of like various group chats various people within 155 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: Lehman's life kind of saying we think that he was 156 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 1: probably the subject of this interview that we're all watching. 157 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, but the public only really became aware of Bruce 158 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 3: Lehman as the subject of this when the matter proceeded 159 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 3: to a criminal trial in twenty twenty one. 160 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, So what happened with that criminal. 161 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 3: Trial, Well, that trial was suspended due to DURA misconducts 162 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 3: and a retrial was later abandoned. And I think that's 163 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 3: what makes this defamation case really notable because there was 164 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 3: never a criminal finding the way about what happened on 165 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 3: that night in March twenty nineteen, and there still isn't 166 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 3: and I think that's an important point. But now there 167 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 3: is a civil finding. But this case, yeah, really moved 168 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 3: into then the question of reputational damage. 169 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: So Lehman believes that he's been identified despite not being 170 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: named in this original interview. That kind of gets the 171 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: ball rolling on this. And now that there hasn't been 172 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: a criminal trial, his name is just sort of out 173 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: there associated with this unproven allegation. So is that what 174 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: kind of brings him to this point of bringing a 175 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: defamation case exactly? 176 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 3: And then this kind of forms then the second and 177 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: third parts of what Justice Lee needed to establish to 178 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 3: work out whether Lehman had been defamed. And so once 179 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: we'd established that it was in fact Lehman who was 180 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 3: the subject of the interview, we then move on to 181 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 3: is the content of the interview the claims made against Lehman? 182 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 3: Are they true or not? And if they were true, 183 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 3: then Channel ten and Lisa Wilkinson could rely on what's 184 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 3: called the truth defense. So in order to kind of 185 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 3: prove for the truth defense, it almost became a forensic 186 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 3: trial in nature. There were witnesses being called who were 187 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 3: on security at Parliament House that night, there were people 188 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 3: who were at the drinks, there was ex partners of 189 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 3: both parties. Because what the court needed to ascertain is 190 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 3: whether or not what Channel ten were claiming about Bruce 191 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 3: Lehman was true, but they needed to do so not 192 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 3: beyond the reasonable doubt, but on the balance of probabilities. 193 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: So I definitely have heard the phrase beyond a reasonable 194 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: doubt used before in terms of criminal cases. 195 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: So what's the balance of probabilities? How's that different? 196 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 3: So in the criminal system and the civil system, there's 197 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 3: two different burdens of proof, and a burden of proof 198 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 3: is the words used to describe what a party needs 199 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 3: to prove in order to prosecute the case. Now, in 200 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: the criminal system, the burden of proof is beyond the 201 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 3: reasonable doubt, and what that essentially means is in the 202 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: mind of the judge or a jury, there needs to 203 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 3: be no doubt in their mind that what is being 204 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 3: claimed did indeed happen. So think about something like speeding 205 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 3: in your car. It's beyond a reasonable doubt because you 206 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 3: were either going one hundred klumeter this hour or you 207 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 3: weren't going one hundred klometers an hour, And so it's 208 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 3: the job of a prosecutor to really prove that there's 209 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 3: absolutely no doubt that this happened. In a civil system, 210 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 3: we use a burden of proof called the balance of probabilities. 211 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 3: And the question that needs to be answered here is 212 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 3: is it more likely than not that something happened. So 213 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 3: think about it almost as like fifty one percent. Is 214 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 3: it fifty one percent likely that this happened, And there's 215 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 3: more chance that it did happen than it didn't happen. 216 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 3: And so that was the level of proof that Justice 217 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 3: Lee was looking at when making his determination yesterday. And 218 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 3: Justice Lee did find that it is more likely than 219 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 3: not that Lehmann did rape Higgins in Minister Reynolds's office 220 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: in March twenty nineteen. 221 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 4: I consider it more likely than not in those early 222 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 4: hours mister Lehman was held bent on having sex with 223 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 4: a woman he found sixtually attracted. He's pursuit of Grantiford cushion. 224 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 4: He did not here one way or the other, whether 225 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 4: miss Higgins understood or agreed to what was going on. 226 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 4: Mister Lhermann raped mis Higgins. 227 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: So it really has come down to it's a lower 228 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 1: kind of burden of proof than a criminal finding. Bruce 229 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 1: Lemon's not going to jail. 230 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 3: Over this, no, So these have no relevance in the 231 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: kind of criminal world in terms of the criminal justice system. 232 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 3: Bruce Lemon has neither been found guilty or not guilty. 233 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 3: The trial was never finished. 234 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 2: So there's obviously a lot to this case. 235 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: That being said, though, so Justice Michael Lee has handed 236 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: down a three hundred page plus decision. So what else 237 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: was kind of in that judgment? 238 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 3: Well, look, there was a lot and you know, we 239 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 3: have this three hundred page decision that when printed would 240 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 3: look and feel like a novel. We also had yesterday 241 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 3: I think it was two and a half hours of 242 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 3: judgment delivered felt like more. Yeah, it was very long, 243 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 3: and so there's lots of an analysis by Justice Lee. 244 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 3: He goes through systematically every witness, almost to us called 245 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 3: discusses the reliability of everybody from Britney Higgins, Bruce Lehman, 246 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 3: Lisa Wilkinson, everybody involved in the case really and what 247 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 3: he found, notably was that Bruce Lehman was found to 248 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 3: have told quote deliberate lies about quote important issues in 249 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 3: the case. 250 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 251 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 3: Now, he also said that Higgins, who testified in the 252 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 3: case to support ten and Wilkinson's case, had said quote 253 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 3: untruths or distortions herself throughout giving evidence. But something really 254 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 3: important to note here, and I was quite impressed that 255 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 3: Justice Lee went into this was he said that lawyers 256 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 3: on both sides had agreed that quote, trauma has a 257 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 3: severe impact on memory by splintering and fragmenting memories, inconsistencies 258 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 3: often observed in reliable reports of sexual assault, and is 259 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 3: not in and of itself a measure of deception. 260 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: That's amazing because that's something that we certainly have read 261 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 1: about in scientific articles, but it feels rare for that 262 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: to have come up in a high profile case like. 263 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 3: This, definitely, and I think it will be used by 264 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 3: other courts throughout Australia as a model for how to 265 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 3: incorporate a trauma based response to these types of cases totally. 266 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: And that also includes he found on the balance of 267 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: probabilities that there was a trauma that informed this. 268 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 3: Case exactly, and so then you know, putting all those 269 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 3: parts together, Whilst he found that Ten and Wilkinson did 270 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 3: identify Lehman in the broadcast, he found that Ten and 271 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 3: Wilkinson could rely on this truth defense and therefore Ten 272 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 3: and Wilkinson were not held liable for defamation from Lehman. 273 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 3: So that leaves us in a very interesting position. 274 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, so what happens. 275 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 3: Now, Well, we have another court date, and that's the 276 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 3: twenty second of April, so we don't have to wait 277 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 3: too long for that, and that's when parties submit what's 278 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 3: called costs, and costs is essentially think of it as 279 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 3: a receipt of how much it had cost for the 280 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 3: legal representation that the parties have had to have to 281 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 3: present their case at this trial. And what typically happens. 282 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 3: And we don't know whether this is going to happen 283 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 3: for sure, but it's reasonably likely there I am sounding 284 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 3: like a civil lawyer. It's reasonably likely that it is 285 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 3: going to happen is that Lhman will be ordered to 286 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 3: either partially or fully cover the legal costs of ten 287 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 3: and Wilkinson. And this is almost a recognition from the 288 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 3: court that in failing to convince the court of his argument, 289 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 3: somebody has to foot the bill, right And so I 290 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 3: mean that could be in the millions of dollars and 291 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 3: we're not going to know exactly how much that is 292 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 3: until the twenty second of April. That's when the parties 293 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 3: have to submit their cost to the court and then 294 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 3: Justice League will go back and review them and work 295 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 3: out how much Bruce Lehman has to pay. Now It's 296 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 3: really important that we also acknowledge that Bruce Lehmon has 297 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 3: the option to appeal this civil case. So whilst it 298 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 3: might feel like a conclusion in the end of the road, 299 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 3: it's not exactly the end of this story, I. 300 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: See, And certainly there are we won't touch on them today, 301 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: but certainly there are other legal actions from other parties 302 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: in this case. We have not heard the last of it, 303 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: but at least for today we have a finding sam 304 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: Justice Michael Lee has developed a reputation for having little 305 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: one liners throughout this very dark case that have really 306 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: been kind of a silver lining. Can you I think 307 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: my favorite was when he said that mister Lhman had 308 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: quote escaped the lions den but gone back for his hat. 309 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: Can you explain what that means? 310 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, he certainly was entertaining during the judgment, and it 311 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 3: did make watching the two and a half hour broadcast 312 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 3: with you a little more enjoyable. But I think this 313 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 3: phrase really does hit an important point and one important 314 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 3: for us to end on. And by saying that he 315 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 3: escaped the line and went back to get his hat 316 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 3: or whatever exactly, the phrase was. What the Justice is 317 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 3: saying is Bruce Lehem and brought this case on himself, 318 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 3: and he was the one who brought to the court 319 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 3: the claim of defamation that triggered this long, detail oriented 320 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,959 Speaker 3: exposure of what happened that night in Parliament House and 321 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 3: indeed a huge judgment yesterday that essentially degraded Lehman's character 322 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 3: from the Federal Court of Australia. I thought it was 323 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 3: a really apt expression. There's now been a couple of 324 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 3: these defamation cases in Australia where people have brought an action, 325 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 3: bringing their particular case back into the center of the 326 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 3: media spotlight and then lost. And yeah, he certainly did, 327 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 3: you know, escape the lion, but went back to get 328 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 3: his hat and got bidden. 329 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, was the hat really worth it? 330 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 3: That's an interesting question. So, as I said, Lehman can 331 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 3: still appeal this case. He has still maintained his innocence 332 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 3: in a criminal court. But a big moment in defamation 333 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 3: law and in media law here in Australia. 334 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: If these episodes brought anything up for you, you can 335 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: call one eight hundred respect which is one eight hundred 336 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: seven three seven seven three two and at their website 337 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: they've got online chats and video calls. 338 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 3: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 339 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 3: Bunjelung Calgaton woman from Gadighl country. The Daily oz acknowledges 340 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 3: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 341 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 3: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and torrest 342 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 3: Rate island and nations. 343 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries, 344 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: both past and present.