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Speaker 1: Gooday.

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Speaker 2: This is doctor Justin Coulson, the author of six books

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Speaker 2: about raising happy families and the founder of Happy Families

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Speaker 2: dot com dot au. Here with Kylie, my wife, podcast

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Speaker 2: co host and mum to our six daughters. Because at

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Speaker 2: school holidays we are sharing with you podcast conversations that matter.

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Speaker 2: We think that this one is going to be really important.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing more certain in family life than your kids

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Speaker 3: occasionally fighting with each other.

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Speaker 2: So not true, okay, not occasionally often.

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Speaker 3: In this episode, we help you step out of the

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Speaker 3: ring with better ways to resolve conflict.

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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers. Now.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you ever watched WWF, the old

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Speaker 2: World Wrestling Federation with Hulpogan, and every now and again

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Speaker 2: the referees would go rogue and actually start wrestling the wrestlers,

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Speaker 2: and I kind of feel like, as parents, we sometimes

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Speaker 2: end up in that situation.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom

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Speaker 1: and dad Nelson.

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Speaker 2: No, no, wait, give me my glove? How so please? Please?

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Speaker 2: I can't live like this anymore. What did I ever

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Speaker 2: do to you?

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Speaker 1: Enough?

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Speaker 3: Honor? No?

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Speaker 2: Why why do you shut me out. Why do you

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Speaker 2: shut the world out? What are you so afraid? I

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Speaker 2: said enough siblings. Can't live with them, That's all I've

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Speaker 2: got to say, can't live.

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Speaker 3: With I can't believe you'd say that I can't live

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Speaker 3: without them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're very kind. You've got good sisters.

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Speaker 3: I do have good sisters. Actually, there have been times,

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Speaker 3: there have been times who have been with the challenge.

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Speaker 2: I've heard you say things about your sisters. But I

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Speaker 2: can't live without them.

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Speaker 3: Even when I don't want them in my life, I

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Speaker 3: still can't live without them.

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Speaker 2: That's fair enough. I've got I'm the eldest of six,

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Speaker 2: so I've got five siblings, and sibling relationships can be challenging.

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Speaker 2: But I feel the same way. I actually really love

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Speaker 2: my siblings and I'm grateful for them. But boy boy,

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Speaker 2: we've had some moments over the years. So today, by

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Speaker 2: the way, I'm justin. You are Kylie, and we're the

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Speaker 2: parents of six kids, and I run a website called

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Speaker 2: happy Families dot com dot au. And we're talking about

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Speaker 2: fight club. Come on, when the kids are just at

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Speaker 2: each other, it feels like that. It definitely feels like that.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes training it's exhausting, and you're like, if you don't

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Speaker 2: stop killing each other, I'm going to kill you kind

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Speaker 2: of thing.

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Speaker 3: It's we become the referees, don't we the countdowns.

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Speaker 2: On kind of get involved ourselves with you know. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you ever watched WWF, the old World

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Speaker 2: Wrestling Federation with Hulk Cogan, and every now and again

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Speaker 2: the referees would go rogue and actually start wrestling the wrestlers,

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Speaker 2: And I kind of feel like, as parents, we sometimes

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Speaker 2: end up in that situation too often. Yes, So today

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Speaker 2: we are here to resolve your sibling rivalry dramas. And

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Speaker 2: I don't know how it's going to go because every

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Speaker 2: now and again I look at our kids and think,

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Speaker 2: how did this happen? What did we do wrong? But

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Speaker 2: it got me thinking about sibling I've already generally and

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Speaker 2: it occurred to me that we kind of get cranky

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Speaker 2: at our underdeveloped, socially inapped children. I mean, let's face it,

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Speaker 2: they don't have the emotional skills, they don't have the

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Speaker 2: cognitive skills, they don't have the social skills, and we

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Speaker 2: get really cranky at our three year orod when they're

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Speaker 2: not getting along with their eighteen month old sister or brother.

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Speaker 2: We get really cranky at our teenager who's having this

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Speaker 2: hormone and brain explosion and developing in all kinds of

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Speaker 2: crazy ways that they're not ready for, and they're getting

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Speaker 2: cranky at their eleven year oldor their eight year old

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Speaker 2: sister or brother. And I thought, it's kind of unfair,

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Speaker 2: really that we expect that our kids are just going

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Speaker 2: to get along just because they're siblings.

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Speaker 3: Do you and I get along all the time?

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Speaker 2: This is a hard question to answer on a podcast. Well,

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Speaker 2: so this is the thing. We have our moments with

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Speaker 2: our own siblings. How old were you, honest question, How

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Speaker 2: old were you when you started to genuinely like and

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Speaker 2: get along with consistently your siblings.

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Speaker 3: I was about thirteen or come on, no, I was.

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Speaker 3: I was about thirteen, and my youngest sister underneath me,

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Speaker 3: she became literally my best friend.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but in spite of the fact that she literally

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Speaker 2: became your best friend over the last couple of decades,

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Speaker 2: you've had plenty of upstts.

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Speaker 3: Of course, But by the time I was about thirteen,

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Speaker 3: because I was the oldest too, and so they looked

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Speaker 3: up to me, and you know that in and of

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Speaker 3: itself was a little bit tricky because it was just like,

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Speaker 3: just be your own person.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. So I'm the eldest of six and my

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Speaker 2: family has recently gone through a massive sibling rift and

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Speaker 2: it's gone for a couple of years, and fortunately is

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Speaker 2: beginning to heal. And I'm so grateful. It's caused so

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Speaker 2: much pain and so much distress, and yet here we

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Speaker 2: are as adults in our thirties and forties and getting

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Speaker 2: dangerously close to fifties, and as adults, we're still having

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Speaker 2: sibling issues. And I watched my parents and the heartache

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Speaker 2: that they feel, and so again I kind of I

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Speaker 2: look at this situation. I'm like, we're grown ups, grown

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Speaker 2: up siblings, and we still have our moments. It's kind

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Speaker 2: of unfair that we expect that our kids are just

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Speaker 2: going to get along.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: Rivalry is part of life, right, whether it be siblings

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Speaker 3: or marriage or coworkers. There is tension all the time

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Speaker 3: in our relationship.

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Speaker 2: I totally agree. And I want to go back to

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Speaker 2: that point that you've just made about marriage. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you kind of raised it at the start of our

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Speaker 2: conversation and you've just brought it up again, and it's

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Speaker 2: worth pausing on, because whether you're in a long term

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Speaker 2: partnership or you're in a marriage, what you have essentially

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Speaker 2: done is you've said to your partner, your husband, wife's spouse,

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Speaker 2: whoever it is, I am committed to you.

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Speaker 3: I choose you like I literally I choose you. As

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Speaker 3: a sibling, do you get a choice in who your

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Speaker 3: brother or your sisters? We just don't. And yet as

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Speaker 3: partners we literally say I choose you.

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Speaker 2: And then we still have fights, we still have conflict

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Speaker 2: and challenge and disagreement. Let's face it, we love each

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Speaker 2: other like crazy, just like siblings actually do, deep down

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Speaker 2: love each other like crazy. But sometimes you did get

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Speaker 2: cranky at me just the other night because I stayed

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Speaker 2: out talking to a friend for an hour in the

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Speaker 2: driveway when you were laying in the bedroom and you

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Speaker 2: didn't want to talk to me for a day or

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Speaker 2: so after that. Yep, I've just brought it back up again.

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Speaker 2: I've created the conflict again. Oh no, you know it's interesting.

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Speaker 3: Remember a week before we got married, we've been dating

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Speaker 3: for about eleven months. We had not had a single disagreement.

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Speaker 2: We had the most wonderful courtship, so much fun.

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Speaker 3: But the week before the wedding, my mom witnessed you

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Speaker 3: and your mom having a fight. You were having an argument.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to say we had a disagreement. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to say it was a fight.

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Speaker 3: Well, in our household, the way we have a fight

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Speaker 3: is silence. Yeah, and nobody talks. Everybody's very very withdrawn

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Speaker 3: and we just you just know that you're in trouble,

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Speaker 3: but nobody's willing to.

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Speaker 2: Talk about it. Not how the courses do it.

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Speaker 3: In your household, it is explosive, dynamic, passionate, words fly

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Speaker 3: from expressed the beds, were just saying I feel this

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Speaker 3: way about things. There's a lot of expression going on. Yes,

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Speaker 3: And my mum walked into that. She saw you and

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Speaker 3: your mum having quite heated conversation about something that you

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Speaker 3: obviously were very passionate about in.

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Speaker 2: The moment, totally trivial.

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Speaker 3: And so that night we had a family meeting called

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Speaker 3: that involved you and me and our parents and it

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Speaker 3: was discussed whether or not it was actually wise that

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Speaker 3: you and I should get married.

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Speaker 2: Oh though it tears that went on till like one

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Speaker 2: in the morning.

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Speaker 3: It was a long night and it was a very

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Speaker 3: very painful night. But both your mom and my mom

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Speaker 3: were so scared that if you could fight with your mum,

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Speaker 3: then obviously you were going to have a fight with me.

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Speaker 3: And no one wanted to put.

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Speaker 2: Me through that.

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Speaker 3: And you and I sat there and we kind of

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Speaker 3: we both were boiling our eyes at it. It was

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Speaker 3: actually quite an emotional moment, and it seems like it's

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Speaker 3: a very funny experience, but there was just so much

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Speaker 3: concern about if there was going to be contention, was

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Speaker 3: this the right thing for us to do?

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Speaker 2: Should we get married? Because if we're going to fight,

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Speaker 2: that would be really bad. And it wasn't until about

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Speaker 2: midnight or one o'clock.

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Speaker 3: That our dads a doubt finally said something, finally said

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Speaker 3: something and said if somebody had said that to us

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Speaker 3: twenty odd years ago, would.

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Speaker 2: We have ever gotten married? He would never have gotten married.

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Speaker 2: So there are actually, scientifically, there are some benefits to

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Speaker 2: sibling rivalry, and I think that it's worth spending just

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Speaker 2: a moment on that before we break and talk about

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Speaker 2: how we can help our kids to because we still

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Speaker 2: want our kids to manage their rivalry well and to

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Speaker 2: fight less. Like just because there are benefits doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: that we want them to be doing it benefits well.

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Speaker 3: It's an opportunity for us to learn how communication works,

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Speaker 3: you know, and we do it in a safe environment.

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Speaker 3: These are the people that we love.

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Speaker 2: Critical though, that we highlight that it's an opportunity. As parents,

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Speaker 2: we've got a responsibility to help our children to learn

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Speaker 2: how to manage these conflicts effectively. It's an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: learn how to manage conflict, not to learn how to fight,

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Speaker 2: and research tells us pretty clearly that effective conflict resolution

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Speaker 2: is most likely gov learned at home, so long as

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Speaker 2: parents know how to do it.

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Speaker 3: That's a tricky part, though, isn't it, Like are we

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Speaker 3: equipped as parents to know how.

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Speaker 2: To Which means that what we're really focusing on here

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Speaker 2: is sibling rivalry is an opportunity for empathy, for compassion,

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Speaker 2: for understanding others' needs and recognizing that we are not

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Speaker 2: the center of the universe. I'm just thinking about the

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Speaker 2: things kids fight about.

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Speaker 3: You breathe my air.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she looked at me. She's in my room, she's

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Speaker 2: touching my stuff, and.

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Speaker 3: As I get older, she's wearing my clothes.

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Speaker 2: Well, even when they're younger. She touched the button on

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Speaker 2: the elevator I wanted to push the on the elevator.

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Speaker 2: She pushed the fight.

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Speaker 3: Too brush when I didn't leave that towel.

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Speaker 2: They use each other's toothbrushes. It's disgusting. Anyway, We're going

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Speaker 2: to come back after the break and talk about even

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Speaker 2: though it's normal that kids fight, and there can even

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Speaker 2: be some healthy outcomes to it if it's dealt with well,

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about what we can do when

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Speaker 2: the kids are fighting to make things better.

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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Famili's podcast.

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Speaker 2: For a happier family.

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Speaker 3: Try a Happy Families membership, because a happy family doesn't

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Speaker 3: just happen. Details at happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Famili's podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now. And today we

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Speaker 3: are talking about fight club and we are the referees.

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Speaker 2: Did you know research shows that kids fight up to

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Speaker 2: eight times per hour. It feels like that.

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Speaker 3: It probably feels like more, especially when they're six in

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Speaker 3: the house.

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Speaker 2: But you know what, this is a really important conversation.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about whether or not we should be intervening

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Speaker 2: and how we can manage the sibling rivalry. And I

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Speaker 2: was thinking there is no child that is so obnoxiously

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Speaker 2: smug as the child who's just managed to get their

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Speaker 2: sibling in trouble for something, and they're sitting there being

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Speaker 2: so well behaved while their siblings getting torn apart by

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Speaker 2: parents who are like, why are you doing this to

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Speaker 2: your sibling? You know that smug look that they've gone

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Speaker 2: on their face, like I got you in trable, like

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Speaker 2: you in trouble. So how do we manage it? What

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Speaker 2: are the best things to do?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 2: I'm obviously the guy with the PhD in psychology, but

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Speaker 2: you've raised six kids and you've done a lot of

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Speaker 2: it while I've been traveling around the country helping other

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Speaker 2: people make their families happier. So my guess is that

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Speaker 2: you've experienced plenty of opportunities to intervene and involve yourself

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Speaker 2: in in simply scrabbles. What are you reckon? Your best

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Speaker 2: couple of tips are, and then I'll dive into some

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Speaker 2: of the science.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that I think that I have

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Speaker 3: experienced more than anything else is jumping in, catching the

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Speaker 3: emotion of the moment and thinking that I know exactly

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Speaker 3: what's happened, only to find out that the child I'm

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Speaker 3: ripping into is actually the victim and not the problem.

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Speaker 3: So often we just we think we see it, we

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Speaker 3: think we know what's happened, and unfortunately, behind our back,

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Speaker 3: child A has gone off and done something, and all

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Speaker 3: of a sudden, we've actually created a bigger problem as

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Speaker 3: a result. And so one of the things that I

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Speaker 3: think so important with this is just being able to

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Speaker 3: take a step back, not catching the emotion of the moment,

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Speaker 3: and really understanding what's happening. That's an opportunity for us

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Speaker 3: to spend time one on one to help them have

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Speaker 3: perspective on what's actually taken place.

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Speaker 2: So what you're really talking about is getting emotion is calm,

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Speaker 2: and then providing an opportunity for empathy. What's going on

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Speaker 2: for you, what's going on in the family, what's going

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Speaker 2: on for your sibling, how's everyone feeling right now, and

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Speaker 2: then starting to problem solve together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, because you know, when we started this conversation,

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Speaker 3: we're talking about our own siblings, and so often we've

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Speaker 3: got big emotions going on inside ours and our siblings

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Speaker 3: have big emotions going on inside them, and sometimes it

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Speaker 3: actually has nothing to do with each other. Yeah, but

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Speaker 3: we've come together and because of the emotions and the

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Speaker 3: burdens and the things that we're carrying in our own lives,

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Speaker 3: the way we interact with each other creates another problem

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Speaker 3: that was not even a problem in the beginning.

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Speaker 2: And it's the same for our kids.

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Speaker 3: Our kids come home, they've had a really really hard

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Speaker 3: day and their sibling looks at them the wrong way,

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Speaker 3: and because they're feeling low emotional, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, and they don't have the social and emotional regulation skills,

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Speaker 2: they blow up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but if we could just recognize that they're carrying

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Speaker 3: a burden and help our children to recognize that they're

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Speaker 3: carrying a burden, what does it feel like when you know,

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Speaker 3: this happens, or could you imagine being that person? Then

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden we have an ability to empathize.

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Speaker 2: So I've got a few ideas as well that I'd

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Speaker 2: love to throw out because I'm thinking, kids fight about

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Speaker 2: stuff all the time. They fight about who's going to

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Speaker 2: be in the front seat.

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Speaker 3: They you know, on my day, it was who's going

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Speaker 3: to sit in the back seat?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: They fight over injustice, it's not fair. Have you noticed

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Speaker 2: how upset they get about who got the bigger half

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Speaker 2: of the muffin that you've chopped in half of the donut.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I love our I love our rule on that one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you cut it. They choose that's right. So I

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Speaker 2: do this one all the time. One of the kids

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Speaker 2: is like, oh, cut the donut. I'll cut the cake.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, that's fine. You cut it in half.

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Speaker 2: And the other one gets to choose which half they

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Speaker 2: want and they're like, oh, okay, they cut it. And

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Speaker 2: then you watch the precision to the millimeter. They're so

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Speaker 2: careful about it. I reckon there's a handful of things

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Speaker 2: to remember when it comes to what the science says,

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Speaker 2: because I mean, I just think about how it feels

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Speaker 2: to be a child. It's so hard. You're fighting over property,

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Speaker 2: you're fighting over terror tree, you're fighting over I want

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Speaker 2: my parents to be on my side and see things

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Speaker 2: from my perspective. You're fighting over the fact that you

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Speaker 2: just want to be amused. Like sometimes kids just fight

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Speaker 2: because they're bored. I used to think to myself when

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Speaker 2: the kids would say, hey, let's play tip, let's play tag,

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Speaker 2: and it's like, what you've just done is you've said

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Speaker 2: you want to take a job and finish it with

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Speaker 2: a fight.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm listening to you say all of these things,

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Speaker 3: and what this really boils down to is that our

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Speaker 3: kids don't feel like they have a lot of control, yeah,

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Speaker 3: in their lives, like they don't have the autonomy to

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Speaker 3: make choices.

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Speaker 2: And they want more connection as well. Yeah. So the

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Speaker 2: science tells us that it really depends when it comes

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Speaker 2: to intervening on their age and the way they intervene.

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Speaker 2: So when it comes to age, research shows that with

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Speaker 2: the younger kids, we need to intervene faster, sooner. We

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Speaker 2: need to get in there and sort of separate the kids.

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Speaker 2: And then I would usually actually say, don't try to

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Speaker 2: teach them lessons, just distract them because with little kids,

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Speaker 2: and I'm talking about kids under about the age of

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Speaker 2: three or four, they're not going to respond to a lecture.

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Speaker 2: They just need to be distracted, separate them, give them

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Speaker 2: something else to do. They'll figure it out. When the

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Speaker 2: children get older, research tells us that if we can

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Speaker 2: help them to have shorter disputes, they have warmer relationships.

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Speaker 2: The longer the dispute goes, the cold of the relationship,

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Speaker 2: and that's best evidence by adult siblings who have disputes.

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Speaker 2: Those disputes, Pride gets in the way, people stop talking,

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Speaker 2: The dispute goes on for longer and longer, the air

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Speaker 2: becomes so frigid that they don't know how to communicate anymore.

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Speaker 3: And then years go by and it's harder and harder

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Speaker 3: step back into positive relationship.

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Speaker 2: Shorter disputes, warmer relationships. And so what that means that

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Speaker 2: as parents, just like you've said, you intervene, but you

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Speaker 2: don't intervene unless, especially as they get old, like ten plus,

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Speaker 2: you don't intervene unless it looks like someone's going to

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Speaker 2: get hurt. You might walk in and the intervention goes

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Speaker 2: like this, You guys seem to be having a tough time.

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Speaker 2: What can I do to help? And maybe you distract them,

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Speaker 2: maybe you invite reflection. You certainly want to encourage empathy.

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Speaker 2: But all you're going to do is describe and invite

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Speaker 2: them to accept your help if you need it. If

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Speaker 2: they accept your help, then you say, well, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to start getting into a turn taking who did

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Speaker 2: what to who? That's going to be frustrating. Why don't

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Speaker 2: we just talk about how everyone's feeling right now? And

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Speaker 2: I know that sounds a bit soft and cuddly, like

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Speaker 2: a little bit moldy coddling sort of thing. But that

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Speaker 2: seems to work best. How's everyone feeling? How did they

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Speaker 2: feel when you did that? How do you feel when

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Speaker 2: they did that? Okay, so we can see how this is.

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Speaker 2: We've created this in each other. What can we do

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Speaker 2: about it? How can I help? That seems to be

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Speaker 2: a nice, calm composed way to deal with it.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think the reality is when we're in that

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Speaker 3: heated moment, we're not actually thinking about how the other

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Speaker 3: person's feeling. No, we're thinking about what we're feeling.

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Speaker 2: Because high emotion is low intelligence. That's right.

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Speaker 3: But as soon as we start to recognize that my

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Speaker 3: actions have actually caused pain more times than not, we're

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Speaker 3: able to take a step back and go, that's that's

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Speaker 3: not my intention. I just want my bag, or you know,

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Speaker 3: I just want my room back.

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Speaker 2: I want my toothbrush, stop using my boothbrush.

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Speaker 3: Or whatever it is. We're not we're not we're not

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Speaker 3: horrible people. More times than not, we have no desire

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Speaker 3: to be to hurt people. But in that moment, that's

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Speaker 3: all we can see. We can just see we want

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Speaker 3: this outcome, and we'll go to whatever lengths to get it.

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Speaker 2: And you know what happens when the kids are fighting,

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Speaker 2: whether you intervene or not, They'll be fighting. It'll be ferocious,

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Speaker 2: it'll be vicious, it'll be all on, and sixty seconds later,

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Speaker 2: next minute, their best is again. Yes, it's like, what

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Speaker 2: is your problem? Like if someone spoke to me like that,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't talk that for our week And they become

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Speaker 2: best friends.

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Speaker 3: But aren't they awesome like that? They just have such

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Speaker 3: forgiving hearts.

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Speaker 2: They So that'll take home message when it comes to

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Speaker 2: sibling rivalry. Number one, it happens, and it's not always bad.

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Speaker 2: Number two, it's.

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Speaker 3: Important that we as the parents don't catch the emotions

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Speaker 3: of the rivalry the incident, and that we're able to

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Speaker 3: help our children take a little step back and do

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Speaker 3: some perspective taking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, which kind of ties into my third

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Speaker 2: take home message, And we haven't said it explicitly, but

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Speaker 2: it's interwoven through everything that we've said today, and that

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Speaker 2: is we've got to be an example. We've got to

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Speaker 2: be a model. We've got to model the effective way

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Speaker 2: to navigate disagreement and tension so that the children are

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Speaker 2: learning that it's not about blowing up. It's not about

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Speaker 2: name calling, it's not about hitting, it's not about doing

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Speaker 2: any of the stuff that drives us mad. It's about saying, huh,

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Speaker 2: we seem to disagree. Let's work this out together in

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Speaker 2: a calm and rational way.

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Speaker 3: So tonight you'll come to bed instead of.

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Speaker 2: Saying no, no friends, no friends coming over tonight, no

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Speaker 2: one in the driveway. I'm all yours. No more conflict

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Speaker 2: about that one.

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Speaker 3: Hey.

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Speaker 2: We really hope that you enjoyed the podcast. Thanks so

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Speaker 2: much for listening. We hope that it helps make your

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Speaker 2: family happier. This is one I reckon that we'll hopefully

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Speaker 2: make a really big difference for improving relationships at home.

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Speaker 2: If you do enjoy the podcast, those ratings and reviews

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Speaker 2: that you leave at Apple Podcasts make all the difference

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Speaker 2: for other people being able to find out about the podcast,

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Speaker 2: and we just are so grateful that so many people

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Speaker 2: are getting great value out of the things that we're sharing.

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Speaker 2: As always, we thank Justin Rulan from Bridge Media, our producer,

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Speaker 2: and a special thank you to Craig Bruce, our executive producer,

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Speaker 2: for the fabulous name of today's episode and for his

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Speaker 2: ongoing inspiration if you'd like more info about making your

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Speaker 2: family happier, you can get it all on our Facebook

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Speaker 2: page for free, doctor Justin Corson's Happy Families, or visit

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Speaker 2: my website, happyfamilies dot com, dot a u